Slow clap for the great puppet player.
gods and dragons
1 2
You talk directly to an avatar of Grenth (The seventh reaper, to be exact).
The gods are still alive, just withdrawn. Considering they left Arah a long time ago, It’s doubtful Zhaitan has ‘eaten’ any.
IIRC, the Dream simply showed a possible future. Not the complete picture.
Grenth is silenced is a reference which comes from in game. He may not be his own master or whatever. I don’t want to make conclusion from Zhaitan ate Lyssa to he captured Grenth.
The power to resurrect death is probably taken from Lyssa and he consumed her is my point. The other gods might be in a comparable bad situation, but not necessarily caused by Zhaitan and I don’t see indications that he uses other godly powers.
Undead and Risen. The difference between these two is very simple. We have some rare appearances of undead through the game and most times they are along with risen. The ones are kind of walking dead, dead bodies which just don’t stop moving and the others are resurrected dead. Effectively the risen corruption is a form of life that we fight and that fights us.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Only, Lyssa doesn’t have the power of resurrection, or at least it’s not in her ‘realm’. That’s Dwayna and Grenth.
Before Grenth came to power, resurrection NEVER happened.
The Ritual is (from what I think) more about grief then actually bringing people back to life. Because the Priests always refused.
The Risen always shout doom style lines, it’s to demoralize the Pact.
I’m going to attempt to clarify a couple things before Konig shows up I guess.
- Zhaitan is an Elder Dragon, the last time he rampaged across the countryside was before the human gods even came to Tyria, so his power didn’t come from them.
- Zhaitan’s servants range all the way from Mesmers to Rangers and back again. Your particular story choices just sent you through an above average amount of mesmers.
- The Ossuary is the source of risen abominations, not the actual risen themselves. It is basically the Orr take on a graveyard, hence why Zhaitan does his parts shopping there.
- You should probably stop believing everything undead servants of Zhaitan say. If I was trying to intimidate/demoralize someone I’d probably claim that I ate their parents/gods/family/countrymen/their entire species and that they were all real tasty. An ongoing theme with Zhaitan/his servants is that they use any means available to crush the morale of whoever they’re fighting.
- Those are Balthazar’s two hounds on the backpack, no dragons here.
- The human gods are worshipped just about only by humans, with the exception of quaggans who claim Melaggan isn’t Melandru at all, which is almost laughable false seeing as the two deities look identical. The priest in Hoelbrak is probably referring to the spirits of the wild. Since every norn and their grandma will insist on telling you over and over until your ears bleed, they pray to the spirits of the wild, but they rarely answer.
- As for why Zhaitan was weak, you have to remember we starved the crap outta him, cleansed his corruption of Orr (thereby preventing him from being empowered by it), killed his generals and what have you en masse, blasted him in the face with dragon-slaying beams and so on. Mechanically, Zhaitan can’t be all kitten and hard to kill because you’d have forum posts cropping up about how not being able to complete the uber-difficult last personal story mission is a real buzzkill for some people.
- Scarlet plan is yet unclear, but the gist of it seems to be to rile up the EDs, have Tyria go 10 rounds with them before using her magitech wizard plot armor/weapons to kill the big lizards and subjugate the survivors. To quote the red salad herself: I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.
Norn view the human gods as the “Spirits of action” as I recall. One Charr myth is that Melandru created the world.
Other races acknowledge the human gods, but don’t worship them.
In addition to what Kalavier stated, the asura view the 6 as bigger cogs in the eternal Alchemy. The EA being a sort of “Theory of Everything” that encompasses how gods are part of the system that is reality.
Aside from that, we have dev interview that say the gods have decided not to interfere.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
If I would be made of bacon, I wouldn’t “interfere” in pacification of hungry mob of McDonalds costumers either.
- Zhaitan is an Elder Dragon, the last time he rampaged across the countryside was before the human gods even came to Tyria, so his power didn’t come from them.
Thats my starting point. The NPC that I am searching for mentions that all records from the past declare him as dragon of decay and not of resurrection.
- Zhaitan’s servants range all the way from Mesmers to Rangers and back again. Your particular story choices just sent you through an above average amount of mesmers.
Even there is a difference between those who serve him for unknown reasons and those who were corrupted. Those who serve him “voluntary” are mostly mesmer.
- The Ossuary is the source of risen abominations, not the actual risen themselves. It is basically the Orr take on a graveyard, hence why Zhaitan does his parts shopping there.
Among the personal story are mostly undead abominations (not risen). Why are they there? Why do we have to see the whole rite instead of looking in the huge building beside the temple which is directly connected?
- You should probably stop believing everything undead servants of Zhaitan say. If I was trying to intimidate/demoralize someone I’d probably claim that I ate their parents/gods/family/countrymen/their entire species and that they were all real tasty. An ongoing theme with Zhaitan/his servants is that they use any means available to crush the morale of whoever they’re fighting.
They should know that it doesn’t crush my morale. It stirs up hatred. Do you want me to believe blindly everything our allies tell? Most individuals surely tell everything like they perceive, but among them are some that know more and use us for their plans. The Pale Tree is one of the worst. He lies purposely to keep us unaware of the things that really happen in Tyria. I don’t want to say that it’s objectives are bad, but it’s hard to trust one that lies deliberately.
- Those are Balthazar’s two hounds on the backpack, no dragons here.
My bad. Looked very dragon on first sight.
- The human gods are worshipped just about only by humans, with the exception of quaggans who claim Melaggan isn’t Melandru at all, which is almost laughable false seeing as the two deities look identical. The priest in Hoelbrak is probably referring to the spirits of the wild. Since every norn and their grandma will insist on telling you over and over until your ears bleed, they pray to the spirits of the wild, but they rarely answer.
The quaggan info is nice. The priest I am talking about is a human Balthazar priest and doesn’t initially live there.
- As for why Zhaitan was weak, you have to remember we starved the crap outta him, cleansed his corruption of Orr (thereby preventing him from being empowered by it), killed his generals and what have you en masse, blasted him in the face with dragon-slaying beams and so on. Mechanically, Zhaitan can’t be all kitten and hard to kill because you’d have forum posts cropping up about how not being able to complete the uber-difficult last personal story mission is a real buzzkill for some people.
An endless spawn of elite on the way to the airship is not well manageable for most people. The fight at the airship hurts, but is manageable. The point is more the last attack, the only moment where we face him directly. He spawns weak minions which are close to one-hitter (and not all are risen). The major theory that the dragon embody magic might be wrong if we can weaken a 200 year eating dragon by “simply” cutting the closest magic source. And after reading DE, I would say collect the right items and put a good tactic and you can kill an elder dragon alone.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
- Scarlet plan is yet unclear, but the gist of it seems to be to rile up the EDs, have Tyria go 10 rounds with them before using her magitech wizard plot armor/weapons to kill the big lizards and subjugate the survivors. To quote the red salad herself: I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.
The whole battlefield is quite confusing. I cannot exclude that the elder dragon work together or against each other, but someone uses the Pale Tree for the fight against Zhaitan. The dragon that we see in the dream is jungle themed and has some attacks similar to the corrupted Melandru statues. It looks like Mordremoth is stopping by and the Pale Tree says: “Look a dragon. Kill Zhaitan.”
Scarlet didn’t fight for the Pale Tree and she probably didn’t fight for the dragon. There are many 3-sided designs which most people perceived as the honor to the trinity, but in reality we have a fight between two sides and both are using power from the third side, which is slowly bleeding to death.
Norn view the human gods as the “Spirits of action” as I recall. One Charr myth is that Melandru created the world.
Other races acknowledge the human gods, but don’t worship them.
And the charr are elder than humans? How does this fit with common lore? Even the Jotun mention some gods which doesn’t fit the span around exodus. Are there older gods mentioned anywhere by name?
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
And the charr are elder than humans? How does this fit with common lore? Even the Jotun mention some gods which doesn’t fit the span around exodus. Are there older gods mentioned anywhere by name?
None mentioned by name but humanity acknowleges that melandru is the oldest. So that info coupled with the knowlege that the power of the gods transfers makes it possibile that melandru belonged to an entirely diffrent pantheon that didn’t include dwayna or balthazaar. The two of the old 6 that seem the most closely tied to humanity.
oookay, in order:
A random NPC which still try to locate again told about Zhaitan that he usually is the dragon of decay.
I’ve never seen this, only him being called the Elder Death Dragon or Elder Undeath Dragon – I myself have called him a dragon of decay because all he corrupts decays instantly, but never have I seen him called such. Are you sure you’re not mistaking a forum post for an NPC dialogue? If he is called such, it’s one of the more obscure event-dictated dialogues.
This lead me into an investigation were he got his power. I checked his follower, his minions and his “champions” with less satifying results.
Why do the Elder Dragons need to have a “source” for their power? They consume any kind of magic, and use that for power.
First mesmer. A lot of the enemies we encounter and are serving Zhaitan are mesmer. Might be common or not, but basically all other classes are missing.
Risen are well known for using deception and lies in their dialogue and certain events – such as one event in Mount Maelstrom where a risen will pretend to be Jennah, Zojja, Caithe, or other damsels in distress. It is not surprising Zhaitan has a heavy use of mesmers, but all other classes are there – from rangers to warriors to even guardian-like professions and elementalists and necromancers. But Zhaitan’s heavy use of illusionary mesmers is little different than Jormag’s heavy use of mesmeric telepathy-like abilities. It’s just a methodology, not a source of power.
Second Lyssa. Aside from the temple of the forgotten god, many personal missions go into areas of Lyssa or are somehow referring or connected to Lyssa.
Depending on your personal story choice, you can go to the temple of Lyssa, the temple of Melandru, the temple of Dwayna, the temple of Grenth, and the temple of Abaddon without skipping any of them. Only Balthazar’s temple is not featured in the personal story. And there is only one sight related to Lyssa in the personal story – during Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead where you go to the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance. There are far from “many” missions that go into Lyssa-related places in regards to Zhaitan.
Still let me without an answer who rises until I played the ossuary of unquiet dead again. A very long personal story to locate were Zhaitan forges his risen. Interesting is the funeral rite.
Trahearne: This next step was largely ceremonial, but was observed by rich and poor alike.
Trahearne: They offerred a valuable gift in an attempt to persuade the priests to resurrect the dead.
Trahearne: Naturally, the priests refused, but the act of offering and accepting rejection remained a part of the rite.The question to resurrect is usually rejected, but it doesn’t mean Lyssa doesn’t have the power to do so. Additional the people wouldn’t ask her and offer gifts.
This is more of a ritual like attending church on Sundays for Christians, rather than some magical ritual. As said as well, it wasn’t Lyssa but Grenth and Dwayna whom held power over resurrection in the past. Though that doesn’t outright mean that other gods couldn’t, let alone their priests, but that it wasn’t their jurisdiction.
At this point I thought for a long time: huehuehue the ponderous tome is right and we fight secretly Lyssa, but I was wrong.
How is the Ponderous Tome “right”?
With the new introduced trait farming I encountered the temple of Lyssa and suddenly heared what probably was there the whole time, but I didn’t notice:
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!Lyssa is dead! I cannot say for sure if the priestess refers to all six. We know that Orr is the nation of gods, but most areas and most stories told in Orr are about Ilya or Lyss
I would take any and all Risen dialogue with a grain of salt. They’re known deceivers who use lies and deception to try to demoralize the enemy. Like framing the leaders for incompetence (letting allies down fear storyline), or trying to convince you to join their ranks (Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s line, and many of the risen in the Sea of Sorrows novel).
Thalador made a good post a long while back about how all the temple priests/High Priests in Arah basically act the opposite of how their gods’ teachings are. I’d love to link it but it was a long time ago so I don’t know where it is any longer.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Now the problem arise: What’s up with the other gods? Balthazar backpack has two dragon heads and a priest in Hoelbrack complains about a lost connection to him. Another race which probably worships Kormir tells about the loss of connection too. Grenth silenced? Dwayna missing? And Melandru …?
As mentinoed before, two hounds. And the priest in Hoelbrak – Samuel Cuttler – is a priest of all gods, and does not talk about losing connection to him. I don’t know what “another race which probably worships Kormir” refers to at all, and there’s no mention of losing connection to her beyond the standard “the Six Gods have gone silent” stuff that is shared equally for all gods. Grenth is not silenced, no more so than any other god.
Further: Zhaitan ate 200 years magic and started with a god and then this? Why does the magic not just get released in an explosive way like it would have been with Abaddon? Who was the Orrian dragon that we slaughtered, was it really Zhaitan? Why was he so weak?
Because the magic of a god is vastly different than the magic of a dragon. Dragons consume and store magic – they’re basically living Bloodstones – and when they die, if Glint’s corpse is any indication for an Elder Dragon’s corpse, the magic slowly disapates. Gods, however, contain indestructible divinity which needs a host (the god) – and makes the host blinding in appearance. This is why Abaddon’s magic threatened to explode when Zhaitan’s did not.
And our allies? The Pale Tree? Why didn’t he tell us? What is this that the society cannot withstand? What did Trahearne really in the artesian waters and why didn’t the Pale Tree show us the right place to go in his vision? Why no clarity? What was Scarlet’s plan?
I fail to see the relevance – or the coherence – in these questions.
I like to hear opinions or other speculations where one or another gods is at the moment. Maybe Zhaitan devoured all, but that’s unlikely.
Priestess Rhie says the gods are “not in the Mists” – so the answer for where they are is likely in another world. Grenth is definitely alive, as one of the Seven Reapers mention that Zhaitan stole from Grenth.
Grenth is silenced is a reference which comes from in game. He may not be his own master or whatever.
Source?
The power to resurrect death is probably taken from Lyssa and he consumed her is my point. The other gods might be in a comparable bad situation, but not necessarily caused by Zhaitan and I don’t see indications that he uses other godly powers.
Zhaitan doesn’t resurrect. He creates undead – kind of sort of. Really, they’re only called undead because they were corpses. But the risen are no different than any other dragon minion, except that Zhaitan prefers (note: we have proof that he can corrupt living beings) to corrupt corpses.
Undead and Risen. The difference between these two is very simple. We have some rare appearances of undead through the game and most times they are along with risen. The ones are kind of walking dead, dead bodies which just don’t stop moving and the others are resurrected dead. Effectively the risen corruption is a form of life that we fight and that fights us.
Resurrection results in neither risen nor undead. Risen = dragon minions of Zhaitan. Undead = corpses turned into a necromancer’s minion. There are many kinds of undead, but not all risen are undead and not all undead are risen. Those whom are resurrected are living, full out. You cannot perform resurrection on a rotten corpse (or rather, it was never done).
Furthermore, we do not see a single non-risen undead in the game – the closest we see are ghosts and risen.
- The Ossuary is the source of risen abominations, not the actual risen themselves. It is basically the Orr take on a graveyard, hence why Zhaitan does his parts shopping there.
One of many graveyards. Each temple had their own catacombs – though we only see the ones for Grenth’s, Balthazar’s, and Lyssa’s temples. And then we see the Royal Tombs too. Zhaitan raided all of them. And the Lyssan Ossuary was not simply “the source of risen abominations” – they just happened to have been making abominations there; there could have been other places they were made, and we see in that story step that standard thralls were made too.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Thats my starting point. The NPC that I am searching for mentions that all records from the past declare him as dragon of decay and not of resurrection.
And he doesn’t resurrect. So where’s the point here?
Even there is a difference between those who serve him for unknown reasons and those who were corrupted. Those who serve him “voluntary” are mostly mesmer.
None serve him “voluntarily” – it’s outright stated that only Jormag accepts voluntary servants; all other dragons corrupt to enslave.
Among the personal story are mostly undead abominations (not risen). Why are they there? Why do we have to see the whole rite instead of looking in the huge building beside the temple which is directly connected?
You seem to mistake names for actuality. We do not ever see an actual undead. Risen are always called undead by NPCs, and some NPCs share the name of “undead” for said reasons. We do not see a single non-Risen undead in the game.
They should know that it doesn’t crush my morale. It stirs up hatred. Do you want me to believe blindly everything our allies tell? Most individuals surely tell everything like they perceive, but among them are some that know more and use us for their plans. The Pale Tree is one of the worst. He lies purposely to keep us unaware of the things that really happen in Tyria. I don’t want to say that it’s objectives are bad, but it’s hard to trust one that lies deliberately.
Pay attention to the NPCs’ lines after the event. Their morale is questioned.
The priest I am talking about is a human Balthazar priest and doesn’t initially live there.
The priest you speak of doesn’t exist in Hoelbrak.
An endless spawn of elite on the way to the airship is not well manageable for most people. The fight at the airship hurts, but is manageable. The point is more the last attack, the only moment where we face him directly. He spawns weak minions which are close to one-hitter (and not all are risen). The major theory that the dragon embody magic might be wrong if we can weaken a 200 year eating dragon by “simply” cutting the closest magic source. And after reading DE, I would say collect the right items and put a good tactic and you can kill an elder dragon alone.
The elite spawn isn’t endless, unless they made it harder since release. And all are risen. Again, we do not see a single non-risen undead in the game.
And the charr are elder than humans? How does this fit with common lore? Even the Jotun mention some gods which doesn’t fit the span around exodus. Are there older gods mentioned anywhere by name?
The only other mentioned gods that may be real would be Zintl – which is basically the sun, worshiped as a god by hylek – and Koda – the kodan’s god.
Also, Thruln the Lost’s the only mention of the gods in jotun history, no other jotun or jotun record mentions such.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
the balthazar backpack are 2 firey hounds not dragons.
Pacific Islander Legion [NoyP]
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend
I’ve never seen this, only him being called the Elder Death Dragon or Elder Undeath Dragon – I myself have called him a dragon of decay [snip]
I have it from you. I saw this also named elder undead dragon, but I am still searching for the NPC that mentions it, so I wasn’t sure about the correct naming. I just was sure that isn’t the dragon of the risen.
Why do the Elder Dragons need to have a “source” for their power? They consume any kind of magic, and use that for power.
On the one hand people are arguing that the “cleaning of Orr” stole a lot of his power and on the other hand he should have embodied that power. At all he is not that powerful as he should be.
First mesmer.[snip]
Risen are well known for using deception and lies in their dialogue and certain events – [snip]
Several are lying not only enemies, but some lines simply don’t make sense. The difference I want to point out is that most classes we send into the fight are corrupted, but we never send a mesmer and at some point we find out who is behind and that’s a mesmer like Syska . Or the (human) champions are mostly mesmer.
Second Lyssa. Aside from the temple of the forgotten god, many personal missions go into areas of Lyssa or are somehow referring or connected to Lyssa.
Depending on your personal story choice, you can go to the temple of Lyssa, the temple of Melandru, the temple of Dwayna, the temple of Grenth, and the temple of Abaddon without skipping any of them. Only Balthazar’s temple is not featured in the personal story. And there is only one sight related to Lyssa in the personal story – during Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead where you go to the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance. There are far from “many” missions that go into Lyssa-related places in regards to Zhaitan.
You have no choice for Abaddon and you kill a champion there that makes the dragon cry (plus some other features applying there I call it an assassination). Kitah Manse is a place also related to Lyssa and one mouth of Zhaitan has his home there. Another place is the cave directly below the temple of Lyssa.
One of many graveyards. Each temple had their own catacombs – though we only see the ones for Grenth’s, Balthazar’s, and Lyssa’s temples. And then we see the Royal Tombs too. Zhaitan raided all of them. And the Lyssan Ossuary was not simply “the source of risen abominations” – they just happened to have been making abominations there; there could have been other places they were made, and we see in that story step that standard thralls were made too.
Merging this with the prior one it is pretty interesting that we call the ossuary the prior source for Zhaitans risen and that we are going through the funeral rite to locate it.
This is more of a ritual like attending church on Sundays for Christians, rather than some magical ritual. As said as well, it wasn’t Lyssa but Grenth and Dwayna whom held power over resurrection in the past. Though that doesn’t outright mean that other gods couldn’t, let alone their priests, but that it wasn’t their jurisdiction.
If all gods may have the poewr to resurrect, it doesn’t need to be argued about anymore.
How is the Ponderous Tome “right”?
Similarities between Dhuum, Abaddon and Lyssa, but that’s another story/theory to put up.
As mentinoed before, two hounds. And the priest in Hoelbrak – Samuel Cuttler – is a priest of all gods, and does not talk about losing connection to him. I don’t know what “another race which probably worships Kormir” refers to at all, and there’s no mention of losing connection to her beyond the standard “the Six Gods have gone silent” stuff that is shared equally for all gods. Grenth is not silenced, no more so than any other god.
Visited Cuttler long time ago and perceived him as Balthazar priest. I was wrong, but how the muting of the gods is presented gives me the impression that it couldn’t be long time ago.
p. Exactly the Hylek. They complain that the sun doesn’t feel warm anymore. The eye of the sun. Abaddon was giant eye as he was fought and Kormir is a sunspear, whilst they have a lot secret knowledge and are water creatures. What if Zintl was once Abaddon and is now Kormir?
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Because the magic of a god is vastly different than the magic of a dragon. Dragons consume and store magic – they’re basically living Bloodstones – and when they die, if Glint’s corpse is any indication for an Elder Dragon’s corpse, the magic slowly disapates. Gods, however, contain indestructible divinity which needs a host (the god) – and makes the host blinding in appearance. This is why Abaddon’s magic threatened to explode when Zhaitan’s did not.
I just realized that it might not be well comparable, killing a god in the mists and killing a dragon in Tyria.
And our allies? The Pale Tree? Why didn’t he tell us? What is this that the society cannot withstand? What did Trahearne really in the artesian waters and why didn’t the Pale Tree show us the right place to go in his vision? Why no clarity? What was Scarlet’s plan?
I fail to see the relevance – or the coherence – in these questions.
The Pale Tree (the one we know) is another unatural creation and was generally the leader of our trail towards Zhaitan, represented through Trahearne. I have the opinion that it knows what the artesian waters are, but showed us purposely a wrong place (or it wanted another corruption cleaned like Khilbrons). It knows way more than we expect.
Pale Tree to Scarlet (I call her Scarlet at all, because it’s a name choosen from her): Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.
All upon the impression that Zhaitan ate Lyssa and the hostility of her child.
I like to hear opinions or other speculations where one or another gods is at the moment. Maybe Zhaitan devoured all, but that’s unlikely.
Priestess Rhie says the gods are “not in the Mists” – so the answer for where they are is likely in another world. Grenth is definitely alive, as one of the Seven Reapers mention that Zhaitan stole from Grenth.
Wasn’t there a mission in GW1 were he lost his reapers? Do we really know that the 7th reaper serves Grenth actually?
_ Can you tell which one we’re dealing with here?_
“I’m not sure, but if I had to guess, I’d say he’s likely the Reaper of the Ice Wastes, Grenth’s most faithful Reaper. He’d never give up on the Cathedral—no matter what.”
Sound like his prior mission is to keep the cathedral.
Grenth is silenced is a reference which comes from in game. He may not be his own master or whatever.
Source?
His temple is the Cathedral of Silence. After cleaning Jonez says something like: finally it’s silenced again. ANet hinted somewhere about the bad situation of Grenth. Maybe he is not himself.
The power to resurrect death is probably taken from Lyssa and he consumed her is my point. The other gods might be in a comparable bad situation, but not necessarily caused by Zhaitan and I don’t see indications that he uses other godly powers.
Zhaitan doesn’t resurrect. He creates undead – kind of sort of. Really, they’re only called undead because they were corpses. But the risen are no different than any other dragon minion, except that Zhaitan prefers (note: we have proof that he can corrupt living beings) to corrupt corpses.
He creates risen (at least we think so) which are more or less revived dead/undead. That he corrupts living might be more our problem, but that is going a little bit to far here. Let’s say it this way: I found a corruptor which affects all playable races and even more, causing me to wonder if all is real that we see, but on the other hand there are very much subtle designs, telling me everything I see is right.
Resurrection results in neither risen nor undead. Risen = dragon minions of Zhaitan. Undead = corpses turned into a necromancer’s minion. There are many kinds of undead, but not all risen are undead and not all undead are risen. Those whom are resurrected are living, full out. You cannot perform resurrection on a rotten corpse (or rather, it was never done).
Furthermore, we do not see a single non-risen undead in the game – the closest we see are ghosts and risen.
The resurrection is more referenced as bringing life into a hull that can contain it, we also see risen ghosts in Orr.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Even there is a difference between those who serve him for unknown reasons and those who were corrupted. Those who serve him “voluntary” are mostly mesmer.
None serve him “voluntarily” – it’s outright stated that only Jormag accepts voluntary servants; all other dragons corrupt to enslave.
Interesting source, because we generally know nothing about the DSD and I can’t remember primordus corrupted creatures. This slavery thing is told everywhere, but if you spent attention to the risen dialogue it could also be another form of worshipping (there are enough reason expectable).
Among the personal story are mostly undead abominations (not risen). Why are they there? Why do we have to see the whole rite instead of looking in the huge building beside the temple which is directly connected?
You seem to mistake names for actuality. We do not ever see an actual undead. Risen are always called undead by NPCs, and some NPCs share the name of “undead” for said reasons. We do not see a single non-Risen undead in the game.
Wrong. We may not see some in the open world, but there are some in the personal story. The most lovely is Zhaitan’s spy, which is clearly referenced as undead. Or here and here is one listed among the risen. Or here. There are some creatures clearly references as undead —> undead != risen. Furthermore it is pointless to put up the same models like the risen and then reference them as undead, while we see no undead around.
An endless spawn of elite on the way to the airship is not well manageable for most people. The fight at the airship hurts, but is manageable. The point is more the last attack, the only moment where we face him directly. He spawns weak minions which are close to one-hitter (and not all are risen). The major theory that the dragon embody magic might be wrong if we can weaken a 200 year eating dragon by “simply” cutting the closest magic source. And after reading DE, I would say collect the right items and put a good tactic and you can kill an elder dragon alone.
The elite spawn isn’t endless, unless they made it harder since release. And all are risen. Again, we do not see a single non-risen undead in the game.
Tried to open the first door alone? After the third wave immediately spawning elite, I gave up, don’t know if there is an end.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
On the one hand people are arguing that the “cleaning of Orr” stole a lot of his power and on the other hand he should have embodied that power. At all he is not that powerful as he should be.
Cleansing Orr did little to Zhaitan himself, actually. It was killing the Eyes (both the one in the personal story, and the 3 in the open world), the Mouth of Zhaitan, destroying his influx of corpses, etc. that weakened him. Cleansing Orr just weakened his hold on the land itself, limiting his ability to corrupt more.
Several are lying not only enemies, but some lines simply don’t make sense. The difference I want to point out is that most classes we send into the fight are corrupted, but we never send a mesmer and at some point we find out who is behind and that’s a mesmer like Syska . Or the (human) champions are mostly mesmer.
I’m sorry, I don’t get your point here.
You have no choice for Abaddon and you kill a champion there that makes the dragon cry (plus some other features applying there I call it an assassination). Kitah Manse is a place also related to Lyssa and one mouth of Zhaitan has his home there. Another place is the cave directly below the temple of Lyssa.
Kitah Manse isn’t related to Lyssa at all. It was the home of a powerful Orrian mesmer, but is not related to Lyssa. The “cave directly below the temple of Lyssa” only holds relation to Lyssa by location, the story holds no tie to Lyssa in that. It was just a hidden place for the Pact to set up a camp – like the mid-way camp in the caves in central Straits of Devastation.
By choice, I meant what I said “depending on your choices, you can end up going to all of these temples.” Of course, depending on your choices, you may end up only going to one: Abaddon’s. I did not mean that going to each temple is determined by a choice and you can avoid all of them. I was meaning that Lyssa’s temple doesn’t get special treatment.
Also, roar, not cry.
Merging this with the prior one it is pretty interesting that we call the ossuary the prior source for Zhaitans risen and that we are going through the funeral rite to locate it.
It is a primary source because that’s where they take the corpses carried to Orr by the ships – I would argue it is not due to ties to Lyssa, but rather because that also happens to be where Dhuum was defeated by Grenth and some magic of such lingers. Death begets death.
Similarities between Dhuum, Abaddon and Lyssa, but that’s another story/theory to put up.
The ponderous tome doesn’t talk about similarities between the three, but talks about the curious natures of the three.
Visited Cuttler long time ago and perceived him as Balthazar priest. I was wrong, but how the muting of the gods is presented gives me the impression that it couldn’t be long time ago.
Exactly the Hylek. They complain that the sun doesn’t feel warm anymore. The eye of the sun. Abaddon was giant eye as he was fought and Kormir is a sunspear, whilst they have a lot secret knowledge and are water creatures. What if Zintl was once Abaddon and is now Kormir?
The silence of the gods happened in 1075 AE, though they left the world physically in Year 0, and Zhaitan rose in 1219 AE.
The hylek’s god is not real, however. They worship the sun itself, revering it as if it were a god. Abaddon was not a giant eye – he was a head and two hands.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
The Pale Tree (the one we know) is another unatural creation and was generally the leader of our trail towards Zhaitan, represented through Trahearne. I have the opinion that it knows what the artesian waters are, but showed us purposely a wrong place (or it wanted another corruption cleaned like Khilbrons). It knows way more than we expect.
Pale Tree to Scarlet (I call her Scarlet at all, because it’s a name choosen from her): Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.
All upon the impression that Zhaitan ate Lyssa and the hostility of her child.
Nothing says the Pale Tree is unnatural, actually. Nothing aside from unfounded player speculations, that is.
There’s really no indication that the Pale Tree knew of the Artesian Waters. As she says in A Light in the Darkness: “But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye. " Furthermore, when she brings us to the royal tomb, she never once states or hints that it is the source of corruption. In fact, the vision more or less tells us it isn’t! Trahearne deducted that it could be because: “My research suggests that the Royal Tombs were deeply sacred. They may still hold the connection I need to restore the land with Orr‘s fading life-force. " In other words, he basically goes “this place was sacred, it should do” without any real evidence that it would do.
The Pale Tree held no hand in Trahearne trying the ritual there.
Still not seeing the relation with Scarlet.
Wasn’t there a mission in GW1 were he lost his reapers? Do we really know that the 7th reaper serves Grenth actually?
_ Can you tell which one we’re dealing with here?_
“I’m not sure, but if I had to guess, I’d say he’s likely the Reaper of the Ice Wastes, Grenth’s most faithful Reaper. He’d never give up on the Cathedral—no matter what.”
Sound like his prior mission is to keep the cathedral.
In GW1, the Reapers were imprisoned. He didn’t “lose” them and there is no indication to believe they don’t still serve him.
His temple is the Cathedral of Silence. After cleaning Jonez says something like: finally it’s silenced again. ANet hinted somewhere about the bad situation of Grenth. Maybe he is not himself.
Jonez is talking about the magic being sent to the statues of the gods. The temple’s name is likely a pun off of phrases like “dead men tell no tales” – the temple itself is basically a huge crypt, after all. And I don’t recall any hint that Grenth is in a bad situation, so I’ll have to ask for a source on that. I do know that players have speculated such due to the GW1 Dhuum-related Halloween quests, and the Shadow Behemoth/Aatxes coming in large numbers from the Underworld. But nothing beyond player theories really hint at Grenth being in a “bad situation”.
He creates risen (at least we think so) which are more or less revived dead/undead. That he corrupts living might be more our problem, but that is going a little bit to far here. Let’s say it this way: I found a corruptor which affects all playable races and even more, causing me to wonder if all is real that we see, but on the other hand there are very much subtle designs, telling me everything I see is right.
We have no indication to reason that he doesn’t create risen, especially since they’re outright called his minions by Anet. Creating undead is very much different from resurrection and reviving. Resurrection/reviving results in LIVING beings. Not dead. Not undead. This is all very much apparent in GW1.
The resurrection is more referenced as bringing life into a hull that can contain it, we also see risen ghosts in Orr.
In the context of GW, resurrection is akin to Jesus – going from dead to living. This is more than “bringing life to a hull” because such a phrase can be used to refer to either resurrected (living beings that had died) or undead (mobile, sentient corpses).
The difference, one can argue, is whether the heart beats or not.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Interesting source, because we generally know nothing about the DSD and I can’t remember primordus corrupted creatures. This slavery thing is told everywhere, but if you spent attention to the risen dialogue it could also be another form of worshipping (there are enough reason expectable).
Minions themselves are turned into fanatical creatures upon corruption – regardless of the dragon. This is what’s meant by enslaving, and it is shown clearly in Edge of Destiny (with Branded) and Sea of Sorrows (with Risen). We have not seen Primordus corrupt living beings, but we’re told such is possible in an interview.
Wrong. We may not see some in the open world, but there are some in the personal story. The most lovely is Zhaitan’s spy, which is clearly referenced as undead. Or here and here is one listed among the risen. Or here. There are some creatures clearly references as undead —> undead != risen. Furthermore it is pointless to put up the same models like the risen and then reference them as undead, while we see no undead around.
Again, you’re mistaking names and Tyrian namecalling for actuality. Tyrians all call the risen undead – the game is slewthed with such. To the average, and even some of the more learned Tyrians, “risen = undead” – because Zhaitan so rarely corrupts living beings, so all risen would be corpses risen from the grave (metaphorically speaking, and hence the name “risen”). But Risen, while fundamentally undead, are made differently than your standard undead (ala Palawa Joko). Again, we do not see an actual “standard undead” (such as those seen throughout GW1) in GW2 – yet. They are all risen.
Tried to open the first door alone? After the third wave immediately spawning elite, I gave up, don’t know if there is an end.
That’s not at a Zhaitan fight. :P There is an end, if you step on the pressure plates (need two folks) for the appropriate amount of time.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Cleansing Orr did little to Zhaitan himself, actually. It was killing the Eyes (both the one in the personal story, and the 3 in the open world), the Mouth of Zhaitan, destroying his influx of corpses, etc. that weakened him. Cleansing Orr just weakened his hold on the land itself, limiting his ability to corrupt more.
Well, it didn’t clean Orr at all or is there any indication for it?
I’m sorry, I don’t get your point here.
Zhaitan has human champions which are mostly the old population of Orr and these are mostly mesmer. We send a ranger, a warrior and stuff to his army and they come back corrupted. Small difference.
Kitah Manse isn’t related to Lyssa at all. It was the home of a powerful Orrian mesmer, but is not related to Lyssa. The “cave directly below the temple of Lyssa” only holds relation to Lyssa by location, the story holds no tie to Lyssa in that. It was just a hidden place for the Pact to set up a camp – like the mid-way camp in the caves in central Straits of Devastation.
By choice, I meant what I said “depending on your choices, you can end up going to all of these temples.” Of course, depending on your choices, you may end up only going to one: Abaddon’s. I did not mean that going to each temple is determined by a choice and you can avoid all of them. I was meaning that Lyssa’s temple doesn’t get special treatment.
There is more related to Lyssa than any other god in the story.
From Kitah Manse:
Servant: We sincerely hope you enjoy you stay at Kitah Manse. Lord Kitah welcomes you, and has instructed us to see to your every need.
PC: What’s going on here? Who is Lord Kitah?
Servant: His lordship is a devoted servant of Lyssa. It is said that the goddess herself once visited the manse. May she grace us with her presence again in these dark times.
Also, roar, not cry.
He is not happy about the kill of probably one of the last servants of Abaddon.
The silence of the gods happened in 1075 AE, though they left the world physically in Year 0, and Zhaitan rose in 1219 AE.
Wow, okay where do I get this information about the silence? Is there additional the information when the gods decided not to interfere? What if I found an interaction which was probably advise from a god short before or around 1075 AE (have to check exact date) and affects the world of today? How is this not interfering?
The hylek’s god is not real, however. They worship the sun itself, revering it as if it were a god. Abaddon was not a giant eye – he was a head and two hands.
They torment themselfes with poison and get power for it. What is the source of that magic? Why is this unreal god referred like real ones (with cultural differences)?
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
There’s really no indication that the Pale Tree knew of the Artesian Waters. As she says in A Light in the Darkness: _"But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye. "[snip]
The Pale Tree held no hand in Trahearne trying the ritual there.
Still not seeing the relation with Scarlet.
If there is a problem with the Pale Tree (and Scarlet had one), then it also affects the result and ongoing of the personal story. The Pale Tree is unatural, because the Sylvari have sprouted around 25 years before Malyck showed up. He is referenced as harbinger from the nightmare court and Ronan saw a lot seeds (number unknow, but more than two it seems). Leading me to the conclusion that the whole growing of the Pale Tree was speeded up. Even more the unclear habit of the dream at his Pale Tree, but the nightmare court fights the dream, so it might be unusual for the harbinger to have one (or his Pale Tree). Even more helds Ventari’s tablet the Sylvari away from their true nature and free decisions. It’s a cult around Ventari and there is more that I won’t list at the moment. The tree might be common, the sylvari might be common, but the whole setting is de-naturalized. Furthermore talks the Pale Tree on one side very certain (especially about wyld hunts) and suddenly it changes it’s mind and then tells that it may change. What to believe and what not is hard to say, but the picture from Scarlet, the thorns around the Pale Tree is maybe the problem of it that we don’t see. The Pale Tree doesn’t do what it wants to do. It cowers before something else, playing along, sending us to kill an elder dragon.
I don’t know if the Pale Tree knows about the artesian waters, but the entity behind the dream should know pretty well about it or searched for exact this spot. Orr has a double corruption, because the risen orrians behave like the ghosts of ascalon, leading me to the conclusion that Khilbrons corruption is still active and mixed up with the risen corruption.
In GW1, the Reapers were imprisoned. He didn’t “lose” them and there is no indication to believe they don’t still serve him.
His temple is the Cathedral of Silence. After cleaning Jonez says something like: finally it’s silenced again. ANet hinted somewhere about the bad situation of Grenth. Maybe he is not himself.
Jonez is talking about the magic being sent to the statues of the gods. The temple’s name is likely a pun off of phrases like “dead men tell no tales” – the temple itself is basically a huge crypt, after all. And I don’t recall any hint that Grenth is in a bad situation, so I’ll have to ask for a source on that. I do know that players have speculated such due to the GW1 Dhuum-related Halloween quests, and the Shadow Behemoth/Aatxes coming in large numbers from the Underworld. But nothing beyond player theories really hint at Grenth being in a “bad situation”.
Jonez puts a seal down, which is usually known for sealing magic into something.
The information about the bad situation was around or more than a year ago in one of the chats between Anet and the public (I didn’t care about gods at this time). I stumbled across it, because somebody posted it in another portal. I didn’t find it at the moment, so I drop this statement, but the unclear situation of underworld and the portals to underworld with Aatxe coming out is just another matching picture that there is something very wrong with his home. I try to find more about his actual situation, but at the moment I care more for Lyssa.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
We have no indication to reason that he doesn’t create risen, especially since they’re outright called his minions by Anet. Creating undead is very much different from resurrection and reviving. Resurrection/reviving results in LIVING beings. Not dead. Not undead. This is all very much apparent in GW1.
In the context of GW, resurrection is akin to Jesus – going from dead to living. This is more than “bringing life to a hull” because such a phrase can be used to refer to either resurrected (living beings that had died) or undead (mobile, sentient corpses).The difference, one can argue, is whether the heart beats or not.
I stay at my point that it is a certain form of life. Resurrection/revive might be the wrong words here, but they are still different from common undead.
Minions themselves are turned into fanatical creatures upon corruption – regardless of the dragon. This is what’s meant by enslaving, and it is shown clearly in Edge of Destiny (with Branded) and Sea of Sorrows (with Risen). We have not seen Primordus corrupt living beings, but we’re told such is possible in an interview.
We get told he can, but he doesn’t. At this point I have to line out that it’s not an ingame information, proving the ingame NPC wrong or not comprehensible, even if outside of the game the information is different.
Again, you’re mistaking names and Tyrian namecalling for actuality. Tyrians all call the risen undead – the game is slewthed with such. To the average, and even some of the more learned Tyrians, “risen = undead” – because Zhaitan so rarely corrupts living beings, so all risen would be corpses risen from the grave (metaphorically speaking, and hence the name “risen”). But Risen, while fundamentally undead, are made differently than your standard undead (ala Palawa Joko). Again, we do not see an actual “standard undead” (such as those seen throughout GW1) in GW2 – yet. They are all risen.
Go into the personal story and check for yourself, please. Trahearne calls them very often orrians which is also true, but not for all risen. In our real world most people don’t know that a banana is technically a berry, so I don’t have a problem with omitting common mistakes. They see rotten corpses moving. What would you call them without digging deeper?
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Again, you’re mistaking names and Tyrian namecalling for actuality. Tyrians all call the risen undead – the game is slewthed with such. To the average, and even some of the more learned Tyrians, “risen = undead” – because Zhaitan so rarely corrupts living beings, so all risen would be corpses risen from the grave (metaphorically speaking, and hence the name “risen”). But Risen, while fundamentally undead, are made differently than your standard undead (ala Palawa Joko). Again, we do not see an actual “standard undead” (such as those seen throughout GW1) in GW2 – yet. They are all risen.
Go into the personal story and check for yourself, please. Trahearne calls them very often orrians which is also true, but not for all risen. In our real world most people don’t know that a banana is technically a berry, so I don’t have a problem with omitting common mistakes. They see rotten corpses moving. What would you call them without digging deeper?
I’m not sure what you’re arguing here, as I’m having trouble reading your post, but he’s right in that every ‘undead’ in the game (walking corpse, or being made of corpses) which is not a necromancer minion is a risen, no matter what weird semantics went into naming it (Though, again, I’m not 100% sure that’s what you’re arguing…). I’ve looked at the Risen extensively and I’ve dealt with and fought every dead-thing that you can in this game. Here’s a list from the wiki:
Undead Abomination
Undead Grub
Undead Hylek
Undead Krait Hypnoss
Undead Scout
Undead Shark
Undead Wraith
They’re all Risen, as in, the corrupted servants of Zhaitan. I’ve dealt with all of them myself, they even use the same recorded dialogue as their normally named counterparts, talking about Zhaitan and Orr. For some reason, they just have vague names. The only real difference I can remember off the top of my head is that undead wraiths are Elite forms of risen wraiths.
Well, it didn’t clean Orr at all or is there any indication for it?
It’s stated it would take time to cleanse the whole peninsula. Also, keep in mind that except where the Living World affects, all maps are stuck in time, and sans Southsun Cove, pre-Zhaitan.
Zhaitan has human champions which are mostly the old population of Orr and these are mostly mesmer. We send a ranger, a warrior and stuff to his army and they come back corrupted. Small difference.
Go to Orr. There are a lot of Orrian necromancers, guardian-like casters, etc. They are the risen with coral all over them – Putrifiers, Corruptors, etc.. The Risen Knights are also Orrian, and are elementalists.
There is more related to Lyssa than any other god in the story.
That’s like saying that because Mazdak was a prince of Orr, that the lvl 20-30 sylvari storyline relates to Dwayna.
He is not happy about the kill of probably one of the last servants of Abaddon.
The risen we kill was not (necessarily) a servant of Abaddon. It was a raiding risen.
Wow, okay where do I get this information about the silence? Is there additional the information when the gods decided not to interfere? What if I found an interaction which was probably advise from a god short before or around 1075 AE (have to check exact date) and affects the world of today? How is this not interfering?
Erm… what?
Basic of the situation is that after Kormir replaced Abaddon, the Six Gods’ last duty to the world of Tyria (Abaddon’s imprisonment and related effects) was gone, so they stopped contact shortly after – over time, even the avatars stopped showing (we have a case in 1078 and 1079 AE with the avatars of Dwayna and Grenth specifically so they didn’t quiet up immediately). The gods stilled talked prior to and up to 1075 AE, but they were not physically on the world (except for rare cases, if stories about Dwayna and Lyssa are to be believed).
They torment themselfes with poison and get power for it. What is the source of that magic? Why is this unreal god referred like real ones (with cultural differences)?
The hylek do not torment themselves with poison. They’re naturally poisonous – like tropical frogs which have poisonous secretions. They don’t get “power for it” beyond a natural immunity because their body naturally (read: non-magical, non-inflicted) produces the poisons.
Zintl is acted like an actual god because it’s their belief – like how Romans believed in Mars and Jupiter, Greeks in Zues and Posiedon, Egyptians in Ra and Anubis, etc. etc. etc. Why wouldn’t the hylek refer to their god as real? Grawl do it too. If they accepted their god was false… why bother revering it?
If there is a problem with the Pale Tree (and Scarlet had one), then it also affects the result and ongoing of the personal story.
Nothing says there’s a problem with the Pale Tree…
The Pale Tree is unatural, because the Sylvari have sprouted around 25 years before Malyck showed up.
That doesn’t make them unnatural. Evolution can occur in leaps and bounds – and it isn’t like there weren’t human-like plants before the sylvari.
He is referenced as harbinger from the nightmare court and Ronan saw a lot seeds (number unknow, but more than two it seems).
Ronan seeing a lot of seeds actually hints that they’re natural. Malyk was called the harbinger simply due to philosophical views – his existence proves that the Pale Tree is not alone, and the Court can ignore corrupting the Pale Tree in favor of corrupting the other(s).
Leading me to the conclusion that the whole growing of the Pale Tree was speeded up.
Or it was planted before the others. But fast growth != unnatural. Otherwise, a lot of normal human beings would be considered unnatural by your definition here, because they mature/grow faster than others their age.
Even more helds Ventari’s tablet the Sylvari away from their true nature and free decisions. It’s a cult around Ventari and there is more that I won’t list at the moment.
That doesn’t affect the natural-ness of the sylvari, just the belief and philosophy. It would be like humans are unnatural because they believe in Christianity rather than the original polytheism.
Furthermore talks the Pale Tree on one side very certain (especially about wyld hunts) and suddenly it changes it’s mind and then tells that it may change.
This sentence makes no sense to me.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
What to believe and what not is hard to say, but the picture from Scarlet, the thorns around the Pale Tree is maybe the problem of it that we don’t see. The Pale Tree doesn’t do what it wants to do. It cowers before something else, playing along, sending us to kill an elder dragon.
You have no real evidence of that, seeing how the thorns ended up being Scarlet Briar herself. Remember, the developers had said that Scarlet “did not see what she thought she saw.”
I don’t know if the Pale Tree knows about the artesian waters, but the entity behind the dream should know pretty well about it or searched for exact this spot. Orr has a double corruption, because the risen orrians behave like the ghosts of ascalon, leading me to the conclusion that Khilbrons corruption is still active and mixed up with the risen corruption.
What if there is no entity behind the Dream? Ever consider that? Because all indications that’s the case, honestly speaking.
Khilbron had no corruptive influence. He sunk the land, and raised the army as undead. This is not corruption in any way shape or form. There is no double corruption of the land – just Zhaitan’s. The risen do not behave like the ghosts of Ascalon anymore than they behave like any other dragon minion (one should say it is the Foefire ghosts that act like dragon minions, rather than the other way around).
Jonez puts a seal down, which is usually known for sealing magic into something.
The information about the bad situation was around or more than a year ago in one of the chats between Anet and the public (I didn’t care about gods at this time). I stumbled across it, because somebody posted it in another portal. I didn’t find it at the moment, so I drop this statement, but the unclear situation of underworld and the portals to underworld with Aatxe coming out is just another matching picture that there is something very wrong with his home. I try to find more about his actual situation, but at the moment I care more for Lyssa.
Jonez’s seal is to prevent corrupted magic from the temple going to the other smaller statues. This is an event that happens at every single temple. Jonez is not unique at all. The entire contested temple/statue mechanic is this single set up.
And just because there’s something wrong with the Underworld, doesn’t mean there’s something wrong for Grenth (see GW1).
I stay at my point that it is a certain form of life. Resurrection/revive might be the wrong words here, but they are still different from common undead.
It really isn’t life, given that all dragon minions become the element of their dragon’s attunement. Icebrood’s blood and skin slowly turn to ice. Branded’s insides turn to crystals. Destroyers’ (when corrupted living beings) are melted into molten fire (aka lava). Risen are instantly decayed. A decayed body cannot be alive. Ergo, it is not a “form of life.”
Resurrection is by far the wrong words, as it is entirely different from risen which are more akin to undeath than resurrection.
We get told he can, but he doesn’t. At this point I have to line out that it’s not an ingame information, proving the ingame NPC wrong or not comprehensible, even if outside of the game the information is different.
Er… what?
Go into the personal story and check for yourself, please. Trahearne calls them very often orrians which is also true, but not for all risen. In our real world most people don’t know that a banana is technically a berry, so I don’t have a problem with omitting common mistakes. They see rotten corpses moving. What would you call them without digging deeper?
They’re risen. Risen look like undead. Thus they’re called undead. But other than the necromancer minion skills, there is not a single undead seen in the game. Those in the personal story, and any outside, are risen. Same model, count towards Zhaitan’s Bane slayer achievement, called Orrians or risen by NPCs, act with risen when all dragon minions attack anything not corrupted by their dragon (exception, some icebrood with Sons of Svanir). There is no “undead mixed with risen” – aside from Kellach and possibly Necromancer Rissa, whom are still corrupted though so even they aren’t really an exception, there are no non-risen mixed with risen. Ever.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
The only Undead I’ve seen in GW1 are Decayed, Skeletal, Minions and Mummified AKA Awakened.
The Undead in GW Prophecies are decayed just like the Undead of GW2 so claiming Zhaitan favors Decay over Undeath doesn’t match what we know of straight up Undeath. Most straight up Undeath are decayed and rotting.
I have no idea how Palawa Joko created his Awakened unfortunatly. They seem unique to Elona currently.
Because Zhaitan’s breath is noted to instantly turn people from alive to risen.
Also, as I recall, his corruption in the one Krait lake caused all the things there to become Risen, living prisoners included.
It’s not undeath if the person skips “dying” and goes straight to being Risen.
So the word Undeath by your definition means reanimated?
So liches who never died aren’t undead?
Eh… depends on how you define the term. But getting bogged down on the issue isn’t worth it. Regardless of rather you use ‘undead’ to describe Risen or not, they’re still plainly distinct from Khilbron’s and Joko’s armies. Risen are dragon minions that happen to be (/look like, if you can’t let the point slide) zombies, whereas the undead from Guild Wars 1 were essentially just people/soldiers that happened to be dead. Their origins and nature are sufficient to make them meaningfully different, which is Konig’s point once you get through the semantics.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
So the word Undeath by your definition means reanimated?
So liches who never died aren’t undead?
In most cases, yes. As for Liches, they are oddballs almost all of the time. Also with the whole “Their soul trapped in another object which brings them back if their body is destroyed” means they can ‘die’ then come back, depending how lich-hood works for a setting.
In the case of Risen, yes, they are undead, but also corrupted. You don’t cast a spell and get a Risen.
The undead from Proph are distinctly different from the Risen in GW2. The Undead plaguing Kryta were almost ALL skeletons or skeletal. The risen never, or hardly appear as just skeletons.
edit: I was talking about semantics really. I view Risen as undead, just a specific type.
Liches? Again, depends on the setting. Each setting has their own rules and details.
The Undead Elder Dragon causes a Plague of Undeath(of the Zombification kind) that converts the Living and the Dead into Walking Dead/Undead servants while Khilbron has to harvest only the Dead and usually has to do it when close to them.
Zhaitan’s zombies and Khilbron’s zombies(not to be mistaken for his skeleton and Ghost servants) are visually the same yet structurally different in origin: one’s a plague while the other is straight up Necromancy.
Aside from the 2 commonly seen Rotting Zombie types of Undead there are other types of Undead as well:
1: Mummies(wrapped up servants of Mad King Thorn that later betrayed him for Bloody Prince Thorn).
2: Skeletons(seen alongside Khilbron’s rotting zombies and alongside Thorn’s Mummies)
3: Awakened(desiccated Undead like Palawa Joko and his servants)
4: Glow in the Dark Skeletons(servants of Mad King Thorn until Bloody Prince Thorn showed up upon which they switched sides)
5: Ghosts(non corporeal Undead spirits)
6: Ascalonian Ghosts(Ghosts bound to Adelbern through Foefire)
(edited by Mickey Frogeater.1470)
Anything Mad King Thorn related also can be tossed out of the realm of normal necromancers. The man has candy corn elementals, he was not sane at all.
Again, most of the undead in GW1 proph were skeletal, not zombies. The giant zombie, grasping ghouls, and the one monk type that was chained and floating are the only ‘zombies’ I recall seeing.
Everything else was skeletal or almost entirely skeletal.
Also, undeath and decay can often go hand in hand. Is it so crazy to think of him as both?
Jormag is called the “Elder dragon of ice and snow” for example.
We could call Zhaitan the Elder Dragon of Zombification(decayed Undeath) since it does seem to be his portfollio(all Risen are Zombies).
A pity there are no other(known) types of Undeath Elder Dragons since I would love to see an Elder Dragon of Skeletonification(reduces people to skeletons) and an Elder Dragon of Disease(creates Afflicted ripoffs).
We definatly don’t want a Halloween Elder Dragon(how would such a thing come into existance? Mad King Thorn getting his hands on Zhaitan’s corpse, modifying and reanimating it for his purposes?).
(edited by Mickey Frogeater.1470)
We could call Zhaitan the Elder Dragon of Zombification(decayed Undeath) since it does seem to be his portfollio(all Risen are Zombies).
A pity there are no other(known) types of Undeath Elder Dragons since I would love to see an Elder Dragon of Skeletonification(reduces people to skeletons) and an Elder Dragon of Disease(creates Afflicted ripoffs).
We definatly don’t want a Halloween Elder Dragon(how would such a thing come into existance? Mad King Thorn getting his hands on Zhaitan’s corpse, modifying and reanimating it for his purposes?).
Sounds like a bunch of overlap to me. And undead of any stripe feel like cliched enemies by this point.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
The only Undead I’ve seen in GW1 are Decayed, Skeletal, Minions and Mummified AKA Awakened.
The Undead in GW Prophecies are decayed just like the Undead of GW2 so claiming Zhaitan favors Decay over Undeath doesn’t match what we know of straight up Undeath. Most straight up Undeath are decayed and rotting.
I have no idea how Palawa Joko created his Awakened unfortunatly. They seem unique to Elona currently.
The difference is this:
All undead in GW1 are either at least nearly a decade old (if not centuries old), or were in the Cataclysm (making them very skeletal). They’ve all had time to decay before becoming undead.
But in GW2, you have cases where risen are made from fresh, unrotten bodies and their skin instantly turn gray and their muscles rot. In the novels Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows, there’s explicit mention of the bodies of the slain becoming rotten and decayed as they’re corrupted before they even hit the ground. That isn’t natural rot and decay, unlike the GW1 undead.
A necromancer, as seen in Ghosts of Ascalon with Killeen, can use a fresh, unrotten corpse to make an undead puppet – and the puppet will not rot.
So the word Undeath by your definition means reanimated?
So liches who never died aren’t undead?
There’s no known lich who didn’t die. In fact, in standard fantasy, a lich by definition is undead who’s soul is tied to an object rather than having a soul tied to their body or lacking a soul entirely. In GW2, the phalantry escapes lore (single Ascended item never used in killing Khilbron aside), and all three mentioned liches are rotten (Risen Liches are, except for Mazdak, ghostly which is interesting to note).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I’m not sure what you’re arguing here, as I’m having trouble reading your post, but he’s right in that every ‘undead’ in the game (walking corpse, or being made of corpses) which is not a necromancer minion is a risen, no matter what weird semantics went into naming it (Though, again, I’m not 100% sure that’s what you’re arguing…). I’ve looked at the Risen extensively and I’ve dealt with and fought every dead-thing that you can in this game. Here’s a list from the wiki:
Undead Abomination
Undead Grub
Undead Hylek
Undead Krait Hypnoss
Undead Scout
Undead Shark
Undead WraithThey’re all Risen, as in, the corrupted servants of Zhaitan. I’ve dealt with all of them myself, they even use the same recorded dialogue as their normally named counterparts, talking about Zhaitan and Orr. For some reason, they just have vague names. The only real difference I can remember off the top of my head is that undead wraiths are Elite forms of risen wraiths.
If you put life into a body which is not able to live, then you get a perverted abomination and that’s it what I think risen are. That they are decaying instantly if done to a living could have several reasons and is a speculation where I have no clear path (to many options).
It’s stated it would take time to cleanse the whole peninsula. Also, keep in mind that except where the Living World affects, all maps are stuck in time, and sans Southsun Cove, pre-Zhaitan.
Here lacks my english. Do you want to tell me that Southsun is stuck in time? Even in Orr, Scarlet planted her probes, showing that Orr is today like Lion’s Arch or Kessex.
Zhaitan has human champions which are mostly the old population of Orr and these are mostly mesmer. We send a ranger, a warrior and stuff to his army and they come back corrupted. Small difference.
Go to Orr. There are a lot of Orrian necromancers, guardian-like casters, etc. They are the risen with coral all over them – Putrifiers, Corruptors, etc.. The Risen Knights are also Orrian, and are elementalists.
Now you’ve switched from the risen human champions to common population. The professions which most population risen have are a mix of a lot classes and cannot just tied to one profession. It’s more like they have their old professions (whatever they were).
He is not happy about the kill of probably one of the last servants of Abaddon.
The risen we kill was not (necessarily) a servant of Abaddon. It was a raiding risen.
It was a human champion and no artifact in the whole story except the initial task. It’s an assassination and therefore he cannot just be a raiding risen. Whoever Alzuldin was, he was the target of our mission.
The hylek do not torment themselves with poison. They’re naturally poisonous – like tropical frogs which have poisonous secretions. They don’t get “power for it” beyond a natural immunity because their body naturally (read: non-magical, non-inflicted) produces the poisons.
Zintl is acted like an actual god because it’s their belief – like how Romans believed in Mars and Jupiter, Greeks in Zues and Posiedon, Egyptians in Ra and Anubis, etc. etc. etc. Why wouldn’t the hylek refer to their god as real? Grawl do it too. If they accepted their god was false… why bother revering it?
They mix their own poisonous potions. In one personal story we hunt them, because they stole a potent poison to worship the Eye of the Sun and get into a rage form after completing the formula (not godly, but more power than common Hylek). If you fight the Hylek then you’ll notice poisonous tongue, poisonous blowpipe and they drink something before they spit poison (in some cases they spit fire afterwards). Not magic?
Nothing says there’s a problem with the Pale Tree…
Then I should start to say it: There is a problem with the Pale Tree.
Ronan seeing a lot of seeds actually hints that they’re natural. Malyk was called the harbinger simply due to philosophical views – his existence proves that the Pale Tree is not alone, and the Court can ignore corrupting the Pale Tree in favor of corrupting the other(s).
The nightmare court wants to free the known Pale Tree from Ventari’s tablet, why should they intend to corrupt another one?
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
(edited by Horst Hortensie.5420)
That doesn’t affect the natural-ness of the sylvari, just the belief and philosophy. It would be like humans are unnatural because they believe in Christianity rather than the original polytheism.
Religion and other developments are results of try and error. The Sylvari don’t have a chance for this, because their way is determined. You should know that you can abuse people who want to help without further thoughts.
Furthermore talks the Pale Tree on one side very certain (especially about wyld hunts) and suddenly it changes it’s mind and then tells that it may change.
This sentence makes no sense to me.
I the future can change within a blink of an eye, what happens to all these long term wyld hunts? What if Orr would have been cleaned while Trahearne was studying, would his wyld hunt have been obsolete? 23 years of studying for … I got another task for you?
And we kill a dragon, which is against Ventari’s tenets.
IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.
You have no real evidence of that, seeing how the thorns ended up being Scarlet Briar herself. Remember, the developers had said that Scarlet “did not see what she thought she saw.”
We don’t even know what the eternal alchemy is (the Asura neither). Opening a massive amount of things that are not those that she saw or she thought she saw.
What if there is no entity behind the Dream? Ever consider that? Because all indications that’s the case, honestly speaking.
There is control and where is control there is somebody taking the wheel and driving the sylvari into their wyld hunts, but as said there is a problem with the Pale Tree, not only with the dream.
Khilbron had no corruptive influence. He sunk the land, and raised the army as undead. This is not corruption in any way shape or form. There is no double corruption of the land – just Zhaitan’s. The risen do not behave like the ghosts of Ascalon anymore than they behave like any other dragon minion (one should say it is the Foefire ghosts that act like dragon minions, rather than the other way around).
There is a fine line between the risen. Those who lived in Orr before it sunk and those who were transformed afterwards. Those who lived in Orr are gardening or whatever they’ve done (as Orr sunk probably). They react if you come close. There are several NPC in Orr mentioning this behaviour. This is a behaviour similar to Ascalon and knowing that Khilbron sunk Orr with an equal powerful forbidden spell and a special weapon makes it possible that the population of Orr behaved the same even underwater (just undead instead of ghosts). Doing their duty until eternity. As Zhaitan rose Orr and changed all into risen he couldn’t overwrite this behaviour, even if they serve him now.
Jonez’s seal is to prevent corrupted magic from the temple going to the other smaller statues. This is an event that happens at every single temple. Jonez is not unique at all. The entire contested temple/statue mechanic is this single set up.
And just because there’s something wrong with the Underworld, doesn’t mean there’s something wrong for Grenth (see GW1).
Have no reliable traces found of Grenth and haven’t even searched for them, but the priestess says that Zhaitan ate all, while I’m just searching for more traces if he devoured (and took over) the magic of Lyssa. I think if something bad happened to Grenth it may be connected to eye of the north (which I haven’t played or searched for story, it’s again just some matching pattern that would cause me to search there for Grenth’s fate).
We get told he can, but he doesn’t. At this point I have to line out that it’s not an ingame information, proving the ingame NPC wrong or not comprehensible, even if outside of the game the information is different.
Er… what?
Real world != game world —> ingame NPC cannot know what devs tell us in real world
But I take it from you. Primordus corrupts into lava and this NPC knows, while I’ve never really heard of it.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
(edited by Horst Hortensie.5420)
They’re risen. Risen look like undead. Thus they’re called undead. But other than the necromancer minion skills, there is not a single undead seen in the game. Those in the
personal story, and any outside, are risen. Same model, count towards Zhaitan’s Bane slayer achievement, called Orrians or risen by NPCs, act with risen when all dragon minions attack anything not corrupted by their dragon (exception, some icebrood with Sons of Svanir). There is no “undead mixed with risen” – aside from Kellach and possiblyNecromancer Rissa, whom are still corrupted though so even they aren’t really an exception, there are no non-risen mixed with risen. Ever.
Again. There are hostile NPCs listed as undead and not as risen in the personal story. There are some instances where we face basically risen and then there is one or two undead among. Additional is there an event where you clean a risen chicken which stays undead after the cleaning. I call this now common undead, because there are more creatures which are undead, but with different names. At first I thought they are undead, because of laziness or the working presure, but I am certain that ANet tells us something with putting them there. We fight rawly 1 million risen in the personal story and 10 clearly referenced as undead, while the models and types are no different. The spy (of Zhaitan) in Maeva’s lab was also an undead spy and this one matches better to an undead orrian elder dragon than a risen. Do you have a better answer why they should be there instead of all are undead in a technical way. Zhaitan usually raises undead, but now he raises risen.
addendum
There is another NPC mentioning that Lyssa is dead (afaik a shining blade), I’ll search for her later (I’m not in game now).
The decay of the risen has an interesting reason, but at some point I have to cut my speculation, because I am on some speculations a little bit further, but just want to speculate about things that I explicitly find ingame (like the risen priestess stating that Zhaitan ate Lyssa).
A small side theory here: The dragons devour magic and release it when they are asleep, but what if dragons are creators of races in Tyria and they need the magic to do so while they are slumbering (which can connect the Sylvari to dragons without being minions). The aggressive way to get the magic is simply, because it’s limited and the older races embody the magic over the time of their development. The Jotun probably survived the last rise of the dragons, because they gave their magic back, allowing the dragons to create new races on Tyria. The gods came from the mist (at least Dwayna, causing Grenth not to be full Tyrian too), so who created the different creatures which were already on
Tyria (like the Charr).
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Wow, searching for a golden thread in this discussion is making me a little dizzy so I’m not planning on getting too deeply involved.
But for the love of the Six, here’s the part of the Dolyak Express Q&A concerning their current whereabouts.
Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?
Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.
(edited by ElysianEternity.6215)
If you put life into a body which is not able to live, then you get a perverted abomination and that’s it what I think risen are. That they are decaying instantly if done to a living could have several reasons and is a speculation where I have no clear path (to many options).
Putting “life into a body” requires a soul. Not all risen have souls – only the more powerful/intelligent ones like the Keeper of Grenth’s Temple and King Reza do.
Besides, Zhaitan isn’t the only Elder Dragon capable of corrupting corpses. Jormag’s known to do it too – wouldn’t surprise me if Kralkatorrik and Primordus can and do too. Remember that what they corrupt is physical matter (and sometimes spiritual, as we see with Risen Wraiths). And corpses are still physical matter.
Not all risen have “life” in them. Few do, one can easily argue, if any.
Here lacks my english. Do you want to tell me that Southsun is stuck in time? Even in Orr, Scarlet planted her probes, showing that Orr is today like Lion’s Arch or Kessex.
Like I said, except when affected by the Living World updates – which may be as little as just probes being placed there – it appears to be stuck in time. Those probes didn’t exist during the PS’s time, but the fight in Orr isn’t as terrible as it was then either (or so we’re led to believe).
A single probe being added doesn’t suddenly make the entire zone up to date. I mean, there’s supposed to be a reduction of risen – yet we see them all over Caledon, in Kessex, and Gendarran still. And those zones have been affected. It’s only the affected parts, not the whole, that we know has progressed.
Otherwise we wouldn’t be killing Daithor time and time again, endlessly.
Now you’ve switched from the risen human champions to common population. The professions which most population risen have are a mix of a lot classes and cannot just tied to one profession. It’s more like they have their old professions (whatever they were).
I didn’t switch. I was talking in a whole from the get go.
Want to just talk about champions? The dragon champions – Tequatl, Blightghast, etc. never use anything mesmer like. And those are the strongest champions there are. Temple priests all use their own gods’ related profession/abilities. Mouth of Zhaitan doesn’t use mesmeric abilities but does use gusts of wind and fire.
Having their old professions is exactly what they ALL have! Only the Eye of Zhaitan and Mouth of Zhaitan are likely exempt, and that’s just two types of creature! Far from all or most.
It was a human champion and no artifact in the whole story except the initial task. It’s an assassination and therefore he cannot just be a raiding risen. Whoever Alzuldin was, he was the target of our mission.
They stole the artifact as you got there. It’s stated so in the dialogue. The mission was to recover the artifact, and we realize the risen got there shortly before we did. Alzuldin was left behind to kill us after the Mouth consumed whatever the artifact was and it and the Eye left.
They mix their own poisonous potions. In one personal story we hunt them, because they stole a potent poison to worship the Eye of the Sun and get into a rage form after completing the formula (not godly, but more power than common Hylek). If you fight the Hylek then you’ll notice poisonous tongue, poisonous blowpipe and they drink something before they spit poison (in some cases they spit fire afterwards). Not magic?
Yes, they mix their potions. But this is unrelated to their resistences or production of natural poisons. Give this a read before you continue, please – in fact, I’ll highlight the main part:
All hylek have a set of poison glands that produce a deadly toxin. Hylek are naturally immune to their own secretions, as well as a wide variety of other natural poisons. Because of this, the hylek do a great deal of experimentation with poisons, antidotes, and a wide variety of compounds.
It isn’t magic. It’s natural production utilizing various plants. It’s no different than producing drugs for us – at least how it was in the past before we had manufacturing companies and scientifically created ingredients. The Eye of the Sun thing had magic involved, MAYBE, but it wasn’t some self-tormenting magic and is a unique scenario.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Then I should start to say it: There is a problem with the Pale Tree.
Then I should start to say it: Balthazar’s mother was Zhaitan.
You have no evidence of support, that’s what I meant by “nothing says” – you saying it doesn’t mean diddlysquat without proof. Else you’re just spouting nonsense like a conspiracy theorist who thinks that the CEO world is full of alien blood-drinking reptiles disguising themselves as humans (this is an actual conspiracy theoriest’s claims).
The nightmare court wants to free the known Pale Tree from Ventari’s tablet, why should they intend to corrupt another one?
Well don’t take my word for it. Go and look up the story step dialogues!
Knight of Embers: Now I, too, understand.
Knight of Embers: When the grand duchess hears this, she will send the whole court after you, Harbinger!
Knight of Embers: She will never stop! Not even when the Grove itself is bathed in blood!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Different_Dream
Knight of Embers:I am the Knight of Embers. I was born dreaming of you, and it has been my life’s ambition to draw you into nightmare.
Malyck:Why? Why do you want me so badly that you would waste lives just to capture me?
Knight of Embers:Because you are the key to our freedom from Ventari’s false laws. Your coming marks the turn of the tide between Dream and nightmare.
Knight of Embers:With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer. Come, the grand duchess awaits in the Venlin Vale.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Source_of_the_Issue
What the Nightmare Court wants is to send all sylvari into Nightmare. They were formed with the intention of freeing the Pale Tree of the Ventari Tablet and becoming “true sylvari” but they’ve fallen from the path by falling into Nightmare.
It’s like when you get freedom fighters who start to sacrifice civilian lives just for the sake of ending the tyranical government.
Religion and other developments are results of try and error. The Sylvari don’t have a chance for this, because their way is determined. You should know that you can abuse people who want to help without further thoughts.
Their way isn’t “determined” any more than a child’s is by their teacher.
I the future can change within a blink of an eye, what happens to all these long term wyld hunts? What if Orr would have been cleaned while Trahearne was studying, would his wyld hunt have been obsolete? 23 years of studying for … I got another task for you?
And we kill a dragon, which is against Ventari’s tenets.
IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.
The future changes based on individuals’ actions. If a Wyld Hunt is complete, it is complete – even if the sylvari wasn’t the one who completed it.
And it’s not against the tenet. The tenet isn’t “do not kill” it is “all things have a right to grow” – this doesn’t mean “never kill” but “give everything a chance.” Zhaitan had millenias of chances and destroyed countless cultures and civilizations, and would have done the same again moreover.
We don’t even know what the eternal alchemy is (the Asura neither). Opening a massive amount of things that are not those that she saw or she thought she saw.
The Eternal Alchemy is how all things connect and function together. It’s a non-physical philosophy. It’s not unknown.
There is control and where is control there is somebody taking the wheel and driving the sylvari into their wyld hunts, but as said there is a problem with the Pale Tree, not only with the dream.
A farmer controls his land. Does that mean he is behind it? No, he’s just a caretaker – which is what the Pale Tree calls herself.
And as said, you hold 0 proof for “there is a problem with the Pale Tree”. Or at least, you’ve not shown such proof.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
There is a fine line between the risen. Those who lived in Orr before it sunk and those who were transformed afterwards. Those who lived in Orr are gardening or whatever they’ve done (as Orr sunk probably). They react if you come close. There are several NPC in Orr mentioning this behaviour. This is a behaviour similar to Ascalon and knowing that Khilbron sunk Orr with an equal powerful forbidden spell and a special weapon makes it possible that the population of Orr behaved the same even underwater (just undead instead of ghosts). Doing their duty until eternity. As Zhaitan rose Orr and changed all into risen he couldn’t overwrite this behaviour, even if they serve him now.
The issue is that we know that they weren’t farming and the like as the charr slaughtered their way through the entire peninsula. And we see Branded functioning in a similar method – we can see some branded ogres going around with their branded pets in Blazeridge Steppes.
So if there’s a similarity, it isn’t between Foefire and Cataclysm, but Foefire and dragon corruption. Which there is similarity, and it delves deeper.
Have no reliable traces found of Grenth and haven’t even searched for them, but the priestess says that Zhaitan ate all, while I’m just searching for more traces if he devoured (and took over) the magic of Lyssa. I think if something bad happened to Grenth it may be connected to eye of the north (which I haven’t played or searched for story, it’s again just some matching pattern that would cause me to search there for Grenth’s fate).
There was nothing in Eye of the North to hint to any of the gods having issues.
And again, don’t take a risen’s words for fact. If you do, then you have to believe he can corrupt sylvari.
Real world != game world —> ingame NPC cannot know what devs tell us in real world
But I take it from you. Primordus corrupts into lava and this NPC knows, while I’ve never really heard of it.
Right, it was a dev that told us that Primordus can, but that we haven’t seen him do such yet – despite the fact that in the skritt storyline, the mentor suspects the Destroyer Queen may be a corrupted living being (“or a new kind of minion”). Source
Again. There are hostile NPCs listed as undead and not as risen in the personal story.
But they are risen. They are called risen, even if their names are not.
Risen are called undead.
Undead are called risen.
With the exception of mentions of Joko and any rare mention of GW1 events, the term “undead” in GW2 is used interchangably with the term “risen”.
Additional is there an event where you clean a risen chicken which stays undead after the cleaning.
The ritual only purifies the mind, it doesn’t affect the body’s corruption.
The spy (of Zhaitan) in Maeva’s lab was also an undead spy and this one matches better to an undead orrian elder dragon than a risen.
It was a Risen Drake under the effects of Spectral Armor’s animations. It is the exact same in every way shape and form as the Risen Creature and Orrian Scout. They are the exact same thing.
Orrian = Undead = Risen
The terms are interchangeably used by the NPCs.
Annoying? Yes. Confusing? Apparently. Fact? Yes.
Do you have a better answer why they should be there instead of all are undead in a technical way. Zhaitan usually raises undead, but now he raises risen.
Risen are undead. Those undead are risen. There is no difference.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
We do not see a single non-Risen undead in the game.
Except for the skeletons and zombies that serve the Mad King.
Are those actual undead, though? They do not count to the Sigil of Undead Slaying. And they come from the Mists, which is capable of creating creatures that look like beings turned inside out (GW1 demons).
Though as I mentioned before – aside from necromancer-made minions. And those may count as that (plus mummies, not zombies), if they are undead.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
We do not see a single non-Risen undead in the game.
Except for the skeletons and zombies that serve the Mad King.
And those really can’t be taken in a serious manner.
Yes, they are canon/in the lore, but they serve alongside candy corn elementals. It’s way outside the “typical” means.
Putting “life into a body” requires a soul.
Is there a definition for souls in guildwars? When can I define something as soulless?
Like I said, except when affected by the Living World updates – which may be as little as just probes being placed there – it appears to be stuck in time. Those probes didn’t exist during the PS’s time, but the fight in Orr isn’t as terrible as it was then either (or so we’re led to believe).
A single probe being added doesn’t suddenly make the entire zone up to date. I mean, there’s supposed to be a reduction of risen – yet we see them all over Caledon, in Kessex, and Gendarran still. And those zones have been affected. It’s only the affected parts, not the whole, that we know has progressed.
Otherwise we wouldn’t be killing Daithor time and time again, endlessly.
Some events are done over a long time (like killing Ulgoth and overtaking the whole map is a war of several years).
Tequatl fled before the update and dies now at the end of the event. He got stronger, why should the risen reduce as long as we put them on the same side? That the probes are placed in Orr is basically the proof that Orr is after the personal story.
They stole the artifact as you got there. It’s stated so in the dialogue. The mission was to recover the artifact, and we realize the risen got there shortly before we did. Alzuldin was left behind to kill us after the Mouth consumed whatever the artifact was and it and the Eye left.
So the dragon is angry, because he got what he wanted? Nothing aside from our allies and our mission tells that there is an artifact. Furthermore Eye & Mouth & champion to claim an artifact in an empty temple, what an army, must be a very very important artifact. It’s about Alzudin and we kill him, because that’s the real task. Why would Trahearne involve a Largos assassin for it?
Yes, they mix their potions. But this is unrelated to their resistences or production of natural poisons. Give this a read before you continue, please – in fact, I’ll highlight the main part:
All hylek have a set of poison glands that produce a deadly toxin. Hylek are naturally immune to their own secretions, as well as a wide variety of other natural poisons. Because of this, the hylek do a great deal of experimentation with poisons, antidotes, and a wide variety of compounds.
It isn’t magic. It’s natural production utilizing various plants. It’s no different than producing drugs for us – at least how it was in the past before we had manufacturing companies and scientifically created ingredients. The Eye of the Sun thing had magic involved, MAYBE, but it wasn’t some self-tormenting magic and is a unique scenario.
from personal story
Speaker Mahuti: The sun shines brightly upon you, indeed. I have brought the zalisco extract for your firstborn. Be careful. Until the sap is mixed into potions, it is extremely deadly.
Dengatl Speaker: Yes. Tochzotl is making great magic — far more powerful than your useless unmagical weapons! He calls it the Eye of the Sun. It will destroy all enemies of the hylek. That is all I know!
Tochzotl: Ha ha! You cannot approach! My poison is powerful!
Tochzotl: Stay back, or I will drink the potion! I swear to you, I will do it!
Tochzotl: I have no choice! I must become the Eye of the Sun – and you must die!
Tochzotl: Fall to your knees, feeble creatures! Behold, the Eye of the Sun!
It’s a poison extracted from a plant and used for magic. No magic?
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Well don’t take my word for it. Go and look up the story step dialogues!
Knight of Embers: Now I, too, understand.
Knight of Embers: When the grand duchess hears this, she will send the whole court after you, Harbinger!
Knight of Embers: She will never stop! Not even when the Grove itself is bathed in blood!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Different_DreamKnight of Embers:I am the Knight of Embers. I was born dreaming of you, and it has been my life’s ambition to draw you into nightmare.
Malyck:Why? Why do you want me so badly that you would waste lives just to capture me?
Knight of Embers:Because you are the key to our freedom from Ventari’s false laws. Your coming marks the turn of the tide between Dream and nightmare.
Knight of Embers:With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer. Come, the grand duchess awaits in the Venlin Vale.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Source_of_the_IssueWhat the Nightmare Court wants is to send all sylvari into Nightmare. They were formed with the intention of freeing the Pale Tree of the Ventari Tablet and becoming “true sylvari” but they’ve fallen from the path by falling into Nightmare.
It’s like when you get freedom fighters who start to sacrifice civilian lives just for the sake of ending the tyranical government.
With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer.
The nightmare is everywhere is statement which you can hear from nightmare courtiers, just like “it’s beautiful”. I don’t think that you tried to get an impression what the nightmare is. A lot of things around us are going the wrong way and we just don’t notice it, because we are all heroes and want to save the world, but we can’t do it this way (we know so little). Turning to the nightmare is just seeing the world as it works now (while even the nightmare court doesn’t know what’s really up).
Their way isn’t “determined” any more than a child’s is by their teacher.
They don’t have choices: Ventari (dream), shut up (soundless) or you are an enemy (nightmare). The sylvari never even try to turn a nightmare courtier back, they are lost and can be killed. The philosophy isn’t true if it’s interchangeable in it’s turnout, but everyone has to follow the layout of it.
If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous. (Pale Tree to Scarlet in the short story)
The Eternal Alchemy is how all things connect and function together. It’s a non-physical philosophy. It’s not unknown.
Hearing Vorpp say “to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy” shows me that this concept is pretty fixed too. If the eternal alchemy is a concept then there is still room for try and error. It is more a religious science while messing around with the nature and there is inconsistency too, thinking of Zojja and her behaviour
A farmer controls his land. Does that mean he is behind it? No, he’s just a caretaker – which is what the Pale Tree calls herself.
And as said, you hold 0 proof for “there is a problem with the Pale Tree”. Or at least, you’ve not shown such proof.
What about this sentence told from the Pale Tree?
Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.
It knows about a problem that we obviously aren’t informed about.
Working on a dragon army. Showing us Trahearne as leader of the pact even before it’s founded. The orders are competetive towards each other, so they don’t accept any other order as leader. We belong to an order and just had the choice which one, but not like Trahearne working together without joining. Until we suggest the pact and suggest Trahearne as leader. Because we have a time shortage and have to defend LA from the dragon we put the fastest and logical decision together, but it’s guided from the Pale Tree independent from your race origin. All fine and subtle settings that guide our way without giving us another choice for it. Pressure, the whole personal story, pressure for fast decisions and low amount of options.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
(edited by Horst Hortensie.5420)
There was nothing in Eye of the North to hint to any of the gods having issues.
And again, don’t take a risen’s words for fact. If you do, then you have to believe he can corrupt sylvari.
I don’t believe every NPC. I try to figure out if it is true, which is a basic task to get behind the scene.
But they are risen. They are called
risen, even if their names are not.
Risen are called undead.
Undead are called risen.With the exception of mentions of Joko and any rare mention of GW1 events, the term “undead” in GW2 is used interchangably with the term “risen”.
So, it’s just another bug to put undead and risen in the same instance? I don’t think so, because most of the undead are in a separate position.
The ritual only purifies the mind, it doesn’t affect the body’s corruption.
Even the mini is referenced as undead (not risen).
Orrian = Undead = Risen
The terms are interchangeably used by the NPCs.
Annoying? Yes. Confusing? Apparently. Fact? Yes.
The spy might really not be the best example, since we are having the first contact here for the undead orrian elder dragon which produces risen.
orrian = population of Orr (even if dead)
undead = not living but moving creatures
risen = dragon corruption (which probably doesn’t even belong to this dragon or is affected through consuption of a certain magic)
As long as you don’t see a difference between risen and common undead and orrians, the whole discussion gets pointless.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
1 2