Guild Wars 2

Note, I’m running with 1500-1900 toughness, I’ve experience and I don’t have nor permavigor nor infinite dodges.

So you admit to having 1500-1900 toughness and are still confused by the numbers? Buy some armour, it helps.

Wait, your complaining about being focused by 3 full zerkers? What did you think would happen?

What the heck is five-hits Shadow Stab?

warriorjrd.8695:

So you admit to having 1500-1900 toughness and are still confused by the numbers? Buy some armour, it helps.

1500-1900 toughness is different from 1500-1900 armor..
1900 toughness is quite much actually

Here is a tip: go to the wiki look at how damage works. Look at how armor works.

Toughness is great against little hits it isn’t so great for big hits.

@oZii:
The note on the Toughness was to anticipate people asking for it. It’s not related to a matter of ignorance from me.
It’s a matter of skill balance: when a class can deal so much direct damage to take away roughly 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 of the total health of a target with high quantities of armor, it’s a clear signal that there’s something wrong.
There is no stat which can possibly help this.

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

The problem is crystalline and simple as it seems.

This is still the situation after nearly 2 years of professional refining. (Talking about ANET work)

I’m enough of being a target dummy for facerollers.

I thought they got rid of that hit summary thing, so these numbers might be outdated.

In any case, there’s way too little presented as far as evidence goes here. It’s just a bunch of numbers with no context. You can say this and that, but you actually have to show it for it to be definitive.

I can go around saying that I get one-shotted every time by every profession’s auto-attack no matter what, and thus everything should be nerfed. But unless I actually provide something concrete it doesn’t mean much.

Furthermore, what constitutes “professional refining”? Did you consult and pay a third-party group that used extensive mathematical analysis and simulations over a two year period to determine the “perfect” build?

Looking again at your screenshot you ate high damaging attacks. They have cooldowns.

Luke.4562:

@oZii:
The note on the Toughness was to anticipate people asking for it. It’s not related to a matter of ignorance from me.
It’s a matter of skill balance: when a class can deal so much direct damage to take away roughly 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 of the total health of a target with high quantities of armor, it’s a clear signal that there’s something wrong.
There is no stat which can possibly help this.

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

The problem is crystalline and simple as it seems.

This is still the situation after nearly 2 years of professional refining.

I’m enough of being a target dummy for facerollers.

You mean the target dummy of 3 full zerkers

Looking at those damage values, gee, conditions sure are out of control in this game.

/sarcasm

^ /mirrorclimb mode activated.

Even if I would post the whole screenshot some people would find something to debate on.
You can think what your ego wants, but I don’t need such things.
These damages are from the actual game build, they aren’t outdated and are totally out of control.

lucky! i’d find it refreshing to get killed by something other than condi filth for a change…

stack all the toughness, protection and damage mitigation you want, condition damage cannot be mitigated…

Liewec.2896:

lucky! i’d find it refreshing to get killed by something other than condi filth for a change…

stack all the toughness, protection and damage mitigation you want, condition damage cannot be mitigated…

When I agree that some condi burst is really ridicle, getting over 30 pings means you had almost 30 seconds to dispel or do something. Remember also that in “Top Skill” viewmode you get the sum of all the conditions, so they could be stacked by more people.
When you get bishotted you go straight in downed mode..
So thank for the reminder and bring some condi removal with you

Liewec.2896:

lucky! i’d find it refreshing to get killed by something other than condi filth for a change…

stack all the toughness, protection and damage mitigation you want, condition damage cannot be mitigated…

dont see how these numbers are very relevant.

In that life you took 68 hits of bleeding, more then a full minute of bleeding, 24 seconds of poison, and 18seconds of Torment. And then the necro-exclusive Terror thing before dying.
You may think the numbers are huge, but all you show is how much damage condition builds had to do to you before you finally, actually, died. And how long it mustve taken.

And the other 3 examples are the same story. Lots of condition ticks that spend a lot of time active on you, before you actually died.

Compared to the other break down that shows how power builds do it. Dead in 4 or 5 attacks, hardly any damage spill over because its far more efficient at killing and killing fast.

Are you burning your dodges on regular hits? I see a lot of Kill shot damage and with the charge up it is more forgiving to the defend to prepare a reflect or a dodge roll.

More than numbers would be needed to really make an educated guess on what needs to be fixed. If three warriors wanted you dead, I hope the other 4 members of your party are assaulting the other points and your death was not in vain.

Clear.8512:

Are you burning your dodges on regular hits? I see a lot of Kill shot damage and with the charge up it is more forgiving to the defend to prepare a reflect or a dodge roll.

More than numbers would be needed to really make an educated guess on what needs to be fixed. If three warriors wanted you dead, I hope the other 4 members of your party are assaulting the other points and your death was not in vain.

When regular blows too hit you like a truck I don’t think that dodging some charged attack would mind the difference, in the long run sooner or later you’ll end up your dodgerolls; I see this coming from both Warriors and Thieves, a pityless spam of heavy attacks which in the end can’t be dodged nor amortized with toughness.
This is making Toughness useless, and bringing no high Toughness even more disgraceful.
That’s a big flaw in the game.

Even the “charge up” animation isn’t of any help during a teamfight.

Only way to slow down a warrior + thief combo is to have very high weakness, protection and regen uptime. That way you can survive for a considerable time, however you will only last longer, not win.

Hmmm, killed by thieves and warriors. Nothing to see here. Move along. – Anet balance team

Liewec.2896:

lucky! i’d find it refreshing to get killed by something other than condi filth for a change…

stack all the toughness, protection and damage mitigation you want, condition damage cannot be mitigated…

…other than by -cond duration stuff… or totally removed with cleanses/transfers…

Aberrant.6749:

…other than by -cond duration stuff… or totally removed with cleanses/transfers…

Or just using skills, as they recycle while the conditions are still ticking.

Delete warriors from GW2 and problem solved, actiually i cant even understand how Anet even made such a class.

Luke.4562:

@oZii:

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

So instead I’ll just analyze the class i dislike the most and blatantly attack it. Because I can.

Right OP?

Luke.4562:

^ /mirrorclimb mode activated.

Even if I would post the whole screenshot some people would find something to debate on.
You can think what your ego wants, but I don’t need such things.
These damages are from the actual game build, they aren’t outdated and are totally out of control.

And we’ll take your word for it because you’re a truth-seeker and a reliable source. Always.
That’s why you’ve given us evidence in the form of a butchered screencap instead of maybe a video where people could see your stats and maybe who was hitting you, how they were doing and what you were doing to mitigate the incoming damage.

But no, you chose to just provide a few caps and then went " trust me guys i know i’m right".

Also I find it funny that you mention that there’s a lot wrong with a lot of the classes but instead of bothering to keep in line with what you say and back it up you choose to just bash on one class because why not.

Luke.4562:

When I agree that some condi burst is really ridicle, getting over 30 pings means you had almost 30 seconds to dispel or do something.

30 seconds seems about right for a condi-removal cooldown, also note that “hits” refers to each stack of bleed, so even something like Precise Strikes which only causes a 3 second bleed will count as a hit,
so a warrior can potentially get 3 “hits” of bleed from every auto attack.

so while 64 hits may seem like it would take a long time, it doesn’t account for extremely short duration bleeds like the 12 stacks applied by Flurry (which with Precise Strikes and Earth sigil procs can wrack easily 18+ stacks of bleed all counting as “hits”, that skill alone could cause a maximum of 25 stacks if you have some otherworldly godlike luck!)

So? The bleed still only ticks once a second. 30 ticks = 30 seconds.

Liewec.2896:

30 seconds seems about right for a condi-removal cooldown, also note that “hits” refers to each stack of bleed, so even something like Precise Strikes which only causes a 3 second bleed will count as a hit,
so a warrior can potentially get 3 “hits” of bleed from every auto attack.

so while 64 hits may seem like it would take a long time, it doesn’t account for extremely short duration bleeds like the 12 stacks applied by Flurry (which with Precise Strikes and Earth sigil procs can wrack easily 18+ stacks of bleed all counting as “hits”, that skill alone could cause a maximum of 25 stacks if you have some otherworldly godlike luck!)

No, the tick is only generated once a second otherwise 68 ticks of bleed dealing 32k damage on your screenshot would mean 500+ damage individual bleed ticks.
According to how bleed “scales” : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding that is impossible.

You did spend 68 seconds bleeding.
All of your examples seem to involve at least over 30 seconds in a fight, a pretty long time for GW2 pvp standards. Especially considering how much longer the fight could have taken with periods without any conditions on you because of cleanses.

You may be dying solely to conditions, but it’s taking a hell of a long time for that to happen.

Harper.4173:

Luke.4562:

@oZii:

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

So instead I’ll just analyze the class i dislike the most and blatantly attack it. Because I can.

Right OP?

Right, because anyway, even if I bring all the proofs and waste 4 hours on making an explanatory and decent post, it can be turned into a trollfest or a flamefest, so i’m not gonna waste my time doing a “spelling lesson to deaf people”.

I’m just going to post the evidence and see how people gonna take it.

Hohoh this dude made the highest score!

10k Killshot

Luke.4562:

Harper.4173:

Luke.4562:

@oZii:

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

So instead I’ll just analyze the class i dislike the most and blatantly attack it. Because I can.

Right OP?

Right, because anyway, even if I bring all the proofs and waste 4 hours on making an explanatory and decent post, it can be turned into a trollfest or a flamefest, so i’m not gonna waste my time doing a “spelling lesson to deaf people”.

I’m just going to post the evidence and see how people gonna take it.

---

Hohoh this dude made the highest score!

10k Killshot

Oh wow, getting hit by killshot is a L2P issue. But what’s more is what is 10k health to a Necro? If you count Deaths Shroud, that’s like 20 to 25%?

So a warrior goes through huge setup and obvious animation to land his biggest and most damaging attack on a cloth but it only take 25% of health from him. Yeah that sounds fair.

Narkodx.1472:

EDIT – In the OP you said you had 1500-1900 toughness. You run with even LESS than that. LOL

Remember: Toughness =/= Armor. Celestial amulet necro has 2238 armor before traits or runes.

Still not very high, but nowhere near as low as you seem to be thinking it is.

@bigmonto: I’d love to see the Necro build that between regular health and death shroud can hit 50k health. 40k requires full Ascended Sentinels armor and weapons, Soldier’s amulet, back, rings, and trinkets, Vitality infusions in every single slot, and 6 points in Blood Magic and Soul Reaping. Very much impossible for PvP.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

@bigmonto: I’d love to see the Necro build that between regular health and death shroud can hit 50k health. 40k requires full Ascended Sentinels armor and weapons, Soldier’s amulet, back, rings, and trinkets, Vitality infusions in every single slot, and 6 points in Blood Magic and Soul Reaping. Very much impossible for PvP.

Did I not say counting death shroud?

A pvp celestial necro with no trait has 22712 health. The base size of your life force pool is 60% of your maximum health. Since when you are in death shroud you take damage in life force instead of health. So totally with these two alone you got 36339. now this can be further increased by Blood Magic (adds vit) and Soul Reaping (adds life force pool) trait line. Easily 40k+.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Narkodx.1472:

EDIT – In the OP you said you had 1500-1900 toughness. You run with even LESS than that. LOL

Remember: Toughness =/= Armor. Celestial amulet necro has 2238 armor before traits or runes.

Still not very high, but nowhere near as low as you seem to be thinking it is.

@bigmonto: I’d love to see the Necro build that between regular health and death shroud can hit 50k health. 40k requires full Ascended Sentinels armor and weapons, Soldier’s amulet, back, rings, and trinkets, Vitality infusions in every single slot, and 6 points in Blood Magic and Soul Reaping. Very much impossible for PvP.

Which is why I said TOUGHNESS. I am well aware of the difference between armor and toughness. In fact, the OP said toughness in the first post as well. He is running 1350 toughness. As a necro you need to actually be a good player to run with that amount of toughness. If he can not avoid a Killshot we know what kind of player he is.

Here’s a helpful hint when it comes to attribute allocation:

Your primary attributes start at 916 each (at level 80). These are power, toughness, vitality and precision. There are also secondary attributes, that start at 0, that aren’t as important —the primary really govern the fundamentals of hitting things, and getting hit by things.

Both primary and secondary attributes are used to compute so-called derived attributes, but they’re irrelevant to this discussion. In terms of item budget, we allocate primary or secondary attributes on our gear.

Now, when you pick your triple-attribute exotic gear you are allocating 1003 points towards an attribute and 698 towards two others. Celestial gets 454 to five.

Ignoring some of the PvP-centric tweaks (e.g. PvP Berserker spreads its budget on 4 attributes), then a Berserker enemy has allocated a total of around 2400 attribute points towards blowing you up quickly on gear alone. With a Celestial amulet, you have 454 points towards mitigating that damage, and 454 points towards soaking that damage.

This is the starting point (e.g. traits also give attributes) as to why you take so much damage. I would suggest you familiarise yourself with the game by using an attribute spread that is much more defensive. Make sure not to invest too much on Healing Power, as it is a somewhat advanced attribute that requires some knowledge of the game to take advantage of.

Tamps.6125:

Delete warriors from GW2 and problem solved, actiually i cant even understand how Anet even made such a class.

I mean really? What fantasy MMO has a Warrior in it? Pfft. Nobody likes that archetype in the least.

/s

Assume you get hit for 10k criticals on 1350 toughness.
With 1500 to 1900 the damage’s gonna be from 9k to 5k.
I don’t want to imagine the amount of damages on a fullberserk with roughly 900 toughness.
The thoughness won’t never save you, however.
These damages are yet not low. I well remember that those kind of damages were from Thieves’ Backstabs and Heartseekers wich have been nerfed badly during the first year.
Now I can understand the D/D Thief is squishy and lives just by those big hits.
But from a tanky, extremely mobile class, with excellent sustain and no need to go around with Toughness or Vitality to survive…

Take your own conclusions and for Kitten Sake, take away your own Ego from this discussion. You must stop identificating yourself with the character you play, it’s not an attack to your person.

PS: I definetly LOVE how people tend to consider as Death Shroud would always be full in every situation. But Yay it’s always L2P issue when it suits you.

@Mickk:
Thank you for showing the situation under another perspective, but if I run celestial I’ve my own reason.
The problem IS and STAYS that the Warrior deals too much damage. No matter how many Toughness or Vitality you will have. This is a significant fail in the design of classes.

I think nerfing Ferosity/Power was the wrong move, what they SHOULD have done is actually nerf the specific skills that can hit like a truck. I run 2,100Toughness and i still get 6k+ hits from Thiefs and Warriors.

It is specific skills that are the problem. So why didnt they just fix them rather than nerf everything down which still means nothing, people hardly changed their build because the specifics that needed to be sorted were barely harmed by the nerf.

@luke your spread is to wide for what you find as high damage. 5k-9k is a huge difference with your high end range being almost double your low end. 5k is fairly low for a backstab and anything lower probably didn’t crit. I personally find that acceptable.

Remember what a thief excels at assassination not having a big attack like that means it is leaning more toward extended fight which s/d can handle better and as such does less damage d/d however doesn’t handle extended fights as well. D/p is more sustained pressure with autos and better defensive options but loses CnD damage.

It’s like trying to go zerk with a scepter necro build you can but it isn’t better then dagger or axe for that role.

Luke.4562:

Harper.4173:

Luke.4562:

@oZii:

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

So instead I’ll just analyze the class i dislike the most and blatantly attack it. Because I can.

Right OP?

Right, because anyway, even if I bring all the proofs and waste 4 hours on making an explanatory and decent post, it can be turned into a trollfest or a flamefest, so i’m not gonna waste my time doing a “spelling lesson to deaf people”.

I’m just going to post the evidence and see how people gonna take it.

---

Hohoh this dude made the highest score!

10k Killshot

If you’re not going to make an effort to gather all the “proof” don’t expect a positive outcome to your thread.
And don’t expect to be taken seriously.

Toxic people are everywhere, I aknowledge it, I’m ready yet.
It’s something anyone can try by himself, it’s not hard.
I’m just showcasing the best! So if it’s gonna get publically aknowledged, something will start moving

I don’t see what the issue is.

You eat all of those skills to the face and presumably kill neither of your opponents while likely having one of the best classes/setups to do it via condi bomb and having one of the best resources in the game for facetanking damage (death shroud).

Not to mention you’re still in a 1v2. Did you EXPECT to win that kind of fight? Seems awfully arrogant to assume you would.

Seems to me like you got either significantly out-played, played poorly in general by allowing for the 1v2 to happen, or simply do not understand how to deal with those two classes above.

@DeceiverxXXXxxXXxx
Ah probably I’m not a good player, bring me proofs, a video about it and I will trust you

Your point still has nothing to do with the main problem. I hope you’ll understand it. (My class and setup doesn’t matter)
Here we have an imbalanced class played by a lot of people and mainly by the most unfair of them, hitting for 5-10k+ by standard.
You can even stay out of a fight and headshot targets which are wasting dodges for other enemies. It’s still an hit too much big to be allowed by ANET in a competitive environment..

If a (allow me to use this therm) “Necromancerwithalways100%lifeforceeveryfight everysituationeveryday” can survive it, there are classes like Rangers or Elementelists which don’t have enough HPs to survive the hit.

PS: Talking about “arrogance”, don’t you feel in a bad spot engaging me in such a discussion with a so frail point?

Just to add oil to the fire, how about a 90k+ elementalist burst? :P
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/The-Highest-Theoretical-Burst/first#post4093244

Then again, if you get caught by a build designed to do that much damage, you deserve to take that damage. There is a reason no-one is running builds like these in high level tournament play – one dodge and you’ve already won the fight. Damage without sustain shouldn’t be a problem if you know what you’re doing, it’s only an issue when combined with too much survivability.

@yski:

Exactly. That’s how my thief works, and I laugh at OP complaining about 5-10k stabs. Anything less, especially by burst-built players would simply be too low to actually kill anything. Look at this encounter with a guard I recently got the jump on (screenshot below).

@Luke

First off, I’m pretty offended you intentionally butchered my name. There’s one x. And it’s only there because when I signed up, ‘Deceiver’ was already taken, and I run that name in other games I play.

So let’s break down my burst thief, shall we?

I run no sustain. Literally 0. All I get is two dodges and a heal. When I engage a fight, I have enough init for one more stab. I have 0 utilities available, no elite, no effect actives on traits, and no condi cleanse (I avoid necros at all costs unless I know they’ve burned their bombs).

And y’know what? I still don’t one-shot even low-base-health foes when they build tanky. Guard base HP is 10k, yet this guy soaked so much damage, even when playing poorly by not avoiding or negating a single attack of mine. And y’know what? I struggle to no end fighting condi builds because I have no way to deal with them. The objective of my build is to pick a target and kill it. Nothing more, nothing less. I can’t 1v2. I can barely even clear camps in WvW because my defenses are so low and the blinds and CC from the mobs is enough to sometimes down me within a few hits. I’m not some unstoppable god who can just kill whatever comes at me willy-nilly. Burst is a style of play, and I own it entirely, and have no issues getting beaten by people who have builds which can deal with this style of play. Conversely, rangers AND eles can easily survive burst. The ele has mist form, and a new trait which gives 100% crit resistance. 100% resistance. TOTAL NEGATION. If you’re playing burst damage, you’re critting. Rangers also have high access to protection and a skill which puts all of the damage they would take to the pet, which can even stack with another skill which lasts just as long, which makes your pet immune to all damage. That seems awfully cool, no? You mention they don’t have the HP. They don’t. And on the basis that you just facetanked all that damage, I see no reason why stating you got out-played is not correct. Every class has a method to deal with every other class.

It’s all a double-edged sword. Arcing Arrow by a DPS war can one-shot me with overkill. Other thieves obviously can. Power necros have and easily can one-shot me in lich form. LF auto does more damage than a backstab. Guards can drop me in a single whirl. I get three-hit by tank hamemr warriors. My ranger’s RF could kill my thief with just one opening autoattack. I’ve killed myself on clutch retals.

Conversely, to drive the point home, I run a trolly tank thief spec in sPvP duels sometimes. It’s a full healing power P/P build. And you know what? I’ve never lost a fight against anything burst before, or even anything using power-based damage. Granted, it sits there and durdles for 15 mins – and many people have just surrendered the fight because it was taking too long – to eventually whittle the opponent down (as long as my damage is better than their sustain, which it usually barely is, and my sustain is higher than their damage, which it usually is), then I will eventually win.

If you’re not countering burst, or even playing in a way to counter burst, then you can’t complain about being bursted. I certainly know if my burst characters were turned into sustained DPS because people complained about getting bursted, I would get up and leave the game. I play burst because I like the intensity of it. Because I find it fun. Do or die is what I like doing, as with many other people, and even if build effectiveness was never decreased in the process of making such a style conversion, I would still leave, because I simply wouldn’t enjoy the game any longer.

My advice is to genuinely practice avoiding burst damage. and to learn how to pick fights. You can’t just go in hero mode and expect to win, especially outnumbered. If you avoid it properly, usually you leave the foe at a massive disadvantage, and can just walk in and kill them while they struggle over blown cooldowns or a lack of resources to keep fighting/stay alive. As I said, you got in a 1v2. You were in a situation, which unless you had negation for all that damage, you would lose. That’s why I don’t understand why you’re complaining. You’re outnumbered, and if you also had no life force, you got out-played by letting it happen by roaming alone and not trying to GTFO as soon as you saw the two of them in the distance. I mean 7k Arcing Arrow? You would have had to actually let the warrior get on top of you in order for any reasonable player to let that happen. Actually, it may even have been a 1v3, seeing as the war was on three weapons, which means either it was a 1v3, further emphasizing my argument, or you let the war reset the fight, heal, swap weapons, and then re-engage while either OOC or having a 1v1 with a thief. Based on the number of swaps, I also know you stayed around to fight for longer than you should have.

So no, this has nothing to due with burst being overpowered. This is L2P and you’re downright refusing that you did anything wrong. All we see is a damage log.
So I’ll show you my damage log regarding how some players can be insanely survivable despite having the lowest base HP pools in the game, and how one dodge roll could have saved this guy.