Guild Wars 2

Just a quick question…..but why exactly does Ele get to keep their Vigor Trait ICD at 5 seconds, while Guardians and Mesmer(I can understand mesmer a bit) get their vigor nerfed? I just kind of noticed this when i was playing around on my ele. Eles have more than one way to gain vigor, and traits that give them more endurance regeneration. This is not a post about nerfing eles or anything. I’m just curious about this.

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.

One is a 10 point trait investment the other is 5. That might not seem like much but lets put it into perspective.

Renewing stamina is a popular trait among eles that dip 10 points into arcana. Though I will say that if you are staff it is no question that you grab blasting over this trait if you only go 10 in arcana which many do now.

Imagine if they moved critical infusion and vigourous precision up to adept to match renewing stamina but didn’t do their proposed nerf and kept it the same.

Mesmer’s for example would be hit the hardest if you moved it up 5 more points. You then are looking at choosing between critical infusion and phantasmal fury, blade training, deceptive evasion, duelist discipline, far-reaching manipulations.

I don’t think there are many mesmer’s that would take it moving up to adept to stay as is over keeping it at 5 points with a nerf.

I’m sure you can think of traits you would then have to decide to take and probably agree it would hurt build diversity if it was moved up to adept major.

The extra 5 points doesn’t seem like justification for the trait not being nerfed on a Elementalist (which it already has been in the past I believe twice). If you look at it from the other point of view if they moved vigorous precision and critical infusion up to adept most players would call that a nerf to build variety and probably say it would be a worse nerf then the one it is receiving.

True though, but i still don’t get how Anet says they don’t like Permanent Vigor in their game, yet they allow it to remain on one class to have such access. From a Guardian main standpoint we stand with ele for lowest HP tier, our ranged weapons are pretty bad. We don’t have good mobility, nor do we have things that let us stick efficiently to other classes well. So we only have pretty good survivability. Bunker guardians won’t probably feel hit to much but the offensive based ones will, and there’s already limited choice builds with Guardian(Meditations/Healway Support/RHS build) the change to guards vigor will make them less survivable, on top of lowest HP, melee based, and already giving up survivability.

Edit: If anything Anet just please make this change split for only Spvp.

sorrow.2364:

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.

I don’t use it anymore, sigil of energy works way better.

Ozii pretty much hit it right on the head.

5 points is not an investment, and its not a choice. It is free perma-vigor, as opposed to having to trait for it. If you are a shatter mesmer – good news, you can take 10 in inspiration and get aoe vigor on shatter (which is on yourself too) and keep your perma-vigor. It’s o.k. that other glass-builds need to trait a little more defensive, as eles dedicate a LOT Of the traits (even the fresh air builds) to survivability and still aren’t really cutting it.

Mesmers have clones, stealth, and blinks as primary ways to mitigate damage, with vigor having been completely 100% free before.

Guardians have blocks, heals, and boons, with previously free vigor.

Eles have boons and heals to survive, with required investment to get that vigor. Without stealth or the multitude of blocks + blinds that a guardian has, the ele relies on his dodges to mitigate damage.

Also, unlike mesmer’s who get a free invuln from shatter and a free evade on blurred frenzy, eles had no evasion frames on their skills. On top of this, they have the longest-cooldown defensive utilities, despite needing them some of the most. Burning speed will now be a short evasion frame which should help with inherent survivability of some builds.

Finally, most of the successful ele builds of ever have focused most attention on taking a large majority of defensive traits, and still coming up short in defense. Nerfing their survivability AT THIS TIME doesn’t seem right, especially when the stated goal is to give them a little more survivability. Perhaps if it becomes an issue with eles in the future, their trait will be nerfed then.

However, I will once again be incredibly upset if eles have to take a valuable 10-point slot for something guards and mesmers get for free.

To be fair, we Mesmers are finally getting perma-vigour removed. It’s a stupid idea as is.
I think even at 50% uptime, Vigour is too readily available.

The Primary.6371:

I don’t use it anymore, sigil of energy works way better.

And giving up on Sigil of Battle? No, thanks.

Also, as most here have already said, I’m all up of making Renewing Stamina a minor trait and take the nerf. Being forced to pick that minor trait for survivability reasons is just bad.
I really want to pick Windborne Dagger, Final Shielding, Arcane Master or Blasting Staff, but if I don’t pick Renewing Stamina, I will just die.

Probably because we need it more then you.

ANet realized that Renewing Stamina is literally the ONLY thing keeping Ele’s alive in PvP (unless they get immob/stunned and die in 2 seconds).

100% uptime vigor traits are bad, and ANet did say they were getting rid of them…but vigor is all that Ele’s have to save them between their absurdly long defensive cooldowns.

I personally take Windborne Dagger over this (Though I play in wvw almost exclusively and mostly roam). I run Sigil of Energy which keeps me dodging away pretty well. However, I trait cantrips to give vigor and regen with Soothing Disruption, but that only gives me about 8s of each and it’s not like I can spam the cantrips.

At launch, when I was totally noob, I thought vigor to be a petty boon, but now I find it crazy good. More dodging is just amazing, especially with Evasive Arcana.

I have a feeling ours will get nerfed shortly after the mesmer’s, if not at the same time. Remember, they only mention a few of the changes in the ’ feature patch previews’. Guess we’ll just need to wait and see. Cheers~

Sry, but i must laugh, if I hear that you dont like the nerfs in your 5 point (perma-)vigor traits.

In comparison with thieves is this nerf weak.

Thieves need 30-35 traitpoints, to have 100% uptime vigor, but they got the nerf, a bigger nerf, than the ele now.
So sry if I say: I can’t complain!

sorrow.2364:

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.

Sorry but why exactly? seeing as how we are already forced to go defensive on traits, gear, jewels and everything else to counter the fact that we have the lowest health and armor and our defensive utilities are on a longer cool down and WORSE than comparable ones of other classes…

We actully need MORE survivability, or at least sustain. This way it would mean ele players wouldn’t be forced to go defensive to counter a weakness that was only there before they nerfed out damage, nerfed our healing and nerfed our mobility.

Before i would have said our survivability was fine, after all of them nerfs i would say no. To say the class with insane cool downs on skills, lowest health and lowest armor needs MORE nerfs is just rather silly.

Look at what other classes have – stealth, blocks, invul, insane mobility, immunities and such. What does ele get? insane cool down on weapon skills and insane cool downs on utilities

Lets take Mist form for example:

Mist form – break stun, 3 second duration, 66% movement speed, 75second cool down
Elixir S – Break stun, evade attacks, 60sec cool down, TB grants 5second stealth(60sec)
Endure Pain – break stun, 4 second duration, 60second cool down allows skills to still be used

So an extra 15second cool down, isnt as good as the other 2 minus the rather useless movement speed increase. So the class that needs defense the MOST has a longer cool down and shorter duation skill in which they cant do anything compared to the class that has the highest health, highest armor, highest passive regen, insane mobility….

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

sorrow.2364:

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.

Sorry but why exactly? seeing as how we are already forced to go defensive on traits, gear, jewels and everything else to counter the fact that we have the lowest health and armor and our defensive utilities are on a longer cool down and WORSE than comparable ones of other classes…

We actully need MORE survivability, or at least sustain. This way it would mean ele players wouldn’t be forced to go defensive to counter a weakness that was only there before they nerfed out damage, nerfed our healing and nerfed our mobility.

Before i would have said our survivability was fine, after all of them nerfs i would say no. To say the class with insane cool downs on skills, lowest health and lowest armor needs MORE nerfs is just rather silly.

Look at what other classes have – stealth, blocks, invul, insane mobility, immunities and such. What does ele get? insane cool down on weapon skills and insane cool downs on utilities

Lets take Mist form for example:

Mist form – break stun, 3 second duration, 66% movement speed, 75second cool down
Elixir S – Break stun, evade attacks, 60sec cool down, TB grants 5second stealth(60sec)
Endure Pain – break stun, 4 second duration, 60second cool down allows skills to still be used

So an extra 15second cool down, isnt as good as the other 2 minus the rather useless movement speed increase. So the class that needs defense the MOST has a longer cool down and shorter duation skill in which they cant do anything compared to the class that has the highest health, highest armor, highest passive regen, insane mobility….

sorrow.2364:

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.
/sarcasm

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

sorrow.2364:

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.

Sorry but why exactly? seeing as how we are already forced to go defensive on traits, gear, jewels and everything else to counter the fact that we have the lowest health and armor and our defensive utilities are on a longer cool down and WORSE than comparable ones of other classes…

We actully need MORE survivability, or at least sustain. This way it would mean ele players wouldn’t be forced to go defensive to counter a weakness that was only there before they nerfed out damage, nerfed our healing and nerfed our mobility.

Before i would have said our survivability was fine, after all of them nerfs i would say no. To say the class with insane cool downs on skills, lowest health and lowest armor needs MORE nerfs is just rather silly.

Look at what other classes have – stealth, blocks, invul, insane mobility, immunities and such. What does ele get? insane cool down on weapon skills and insane cool downs on utilities

Lets take Mist form for example:

Mist form – break stun, 3 second duration, 66% movement speed, 75second cool down
Elixir S – Break stun, evade attacks, 60sec cool down, TB grants 5second stealth(60sec)
Endure Pain – break stun, 4 second duration, 60second cool down allows skills to still be used

So an extra 15second cool down, isnt as good as the other 2 minus the rather useless movement speed increase. So the class that needs defense the MOST has a longer cool down and shorter duation skill in which they cant do anything compared to the class that has the highest health, highest armor, highest passive regen, insane mobility….

It’s called sarcasm, ArmageddonAsh.

I laughed. You should too. Lighten up! You’ll live longer.

On topic:
It pretty much boils down to being Adept Master over Adept Minor. Mesmer and Guardian get their Vigor as a Minor trait in the Adept tier – a mere 5 points of investment. On the other hand, Elementalists have to spend 10 points and use a slot in the trait line that is the most contested for strong picks – Arcana.

It’s not exactly apples and oranges, but it’s close enough.

That said, I can see where you’re coming from with the whole “making it fair” for everyone. Speaking also as an Engineer main, and also losing 50% Vigor uptime with the recent changes, I can tell you now that Elementalist needs the 100% Vigor more than probably any other class.

The only time when Renewing Stamina could be justifiably nerfed in uptime would be if Elemental Attunement were to be moved to become either a 15 point or 5 point minor in Arcana without the AOE Boon Sharing; requiring 20 in Arcana to share the Boons gained from Elemental Attunement. The freed up slot for extra traits would then justify an uptime nerf. As it stands, Renewing Stamina, Elemental Attunement and Evasive Arcana are essentially “locked in” traits for the Elementalist.

Only the reduction of base Attunement cooldown to 13 seconds and the impact of Arcana investment has reduced the propensity for every Ele build to put 30 in Arcana. Moving Elemental Attunement to Master “merely” reduced the minimum requirement to 20. The only time Elementalist will move more out of Arcana is if Elemental Attunement were to be made a 15 or 5 point Minor. Arenanet doesn’t seem to realise this; so after reading this thread, you know what, they really might make Elementalist Vigor only 50% uptime.

Then you can have fun with your Scepter/X Elementalist with Energy Sigils and Phoenix for Vigor uptime and laugh while their lack of evade frames consigns them to an early grave. Everybody wins!

So. We’ve taken so much away from eles, now let’s put the nail in the coffin?

They attempted to move this up a tier, but just like the Mesmer clone trait, they thankfully listened to us and didn’t do such a thing.

Eles have no stealth, no huge movement spam skills, very little stability and invulnerability. We have dodges, and thank goodness anet wants us to keep them. Otherwise, we would not have the success we do now.

—

On another note, I don’t blame Ash for not thinking it was sarcasm. Sarcasm like that is what gets needless nerfs.

Engis can still get high uptime with 20 trait points, nerf pls

@Black Teagan maybe but I’m not comparing nerfs, nor do i want to give the other classes nerfs. Though Theives have stealth(indirect survivablity since you can still be bombed by AoE or predicted) and alot more access to evades and mobility skills, you don’t have other access to vigor and endurance gain(Dagger restores endurance on AA chain, Vigor On heal trait, Feline’s Grace, and Bountiful thief that gives about 10s on Vigor and boon steal)

The point is Ele has a lot of traits and utilities that help with endurance regeneration and access to regeneration to essentially have permanent vigor. To why it’s staying the same is what makes me wonder. The nerf to the five point traits would be justifiable if we had other sources of Endurance Regeneration, but for guardians it is the only trait they have that gives them vigor, outside of a utility skill Save Yourselves, and the randomness condi to boon conversion of PoV and CoP(Chill to Vigor).

-edit- I’m not going to go into mesmer because i don’t know enough aside from built one for Spvp phantasm trolling. I do play WvW as well and I just hope vigor changes roll out only effect Spvp, since Guardians already suffer from lack of things.

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sorrow.2364:

The Primary.6371:

I don’t use it anymore, sigil of energy works way better.

And giving up on Sigil of Battle? No, thanks.

Also, as most here have already said, I’m all up of making Renewing Stamina a minor trait and take the nerf. Being forced to pick that minor trait for survivability reasons is just bad.
I really want to pick Windborne Dagger, Final Shielding, Arcane Master or Blasting Staff, but if I don’t pick Renewing Stamina, I will just die.

You will be able to take both sigil of battle and of energy. So why not both?

babazhook.6805:

You will be able to take both sigil of battle and of energy. So why not both?

When I will be able to take both sigils, then we’ll talk. But right now, no sigil is better than battle.

sorrow.2364:

sorrow.2364:

Elementalists definitely needs a further nerf to survivability.
It’s not like that Renewing Stamina is the only trait keeping Eles alive.
/sarcasm

This is MMO forums, you can never expect nothing but moans for even the weakest classes to be nerfed so you can never know lol

Move it to 5 points in Air, then you can nerf it.

They nerfed engineers perma-vigor and that cost 20points total.

I think it was a dumb idea to wholesale nerf vigor so much, basicly nerfing builds that had substain based on it. Nerf the builds that were overpowered, now they nerfed builds/professions that were very much not overpowered at all.

Sometimes, quite the opposite infact. But thats just arenanet’s profession dev team in a nutshell. Utterly oblivious.

dietzero.3514:

Move it to 5 points in Air, then you can nerf it.

You don’t like Zephyr’s Speed?

Lucentfir.7430:

The point is Ele has a lot of traits and utilities that help with endurance regeneration and access to regeneration to essentially have permanent vigor. To why it’s staying the same is what makes me wonder. The nerf to the five point traits would be justifiable if we had other sources of Endurance Regeneration, but for guardians it is the only trait they have that gives them vigor, outside of a utility skill Save Yourselves, and the randomness condi to boon conversion of PoV and CoP(Chill to Vigor).

-edit- I’m not going to go into mesmer because i don’t know enough aside from built one for Spvp phantasm trolling. I do play WvW as well and I just hope vigor changes roll out only effect Spvp, since Guardians already suffer from lack of things.

-

Ele:
Renewing Stamina: 10 points Arcana
Soothing Disruption: 20 points Water plus you need to put in a cantrip (all cantrips have horrible cooldowns)

Guardian:
Vigorous Precision: 5 Points Honor

A lot of people have said this already: You’re getting it for free as you go higher in your trait lines while Eles have to trait for it. Soothing disruption takes 20 points into water and requires you to use a cantrip which basically have a long cooldown.

What most people see from this topic is that “My guard got nerfed, nerf Eles too to make it fair”. Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

Kyon.9735:

What most people see from this topic is that “My guard got nerfed, nerf Eles too to make it fair”. Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

This is what I see I also see someone that says that have a Ele but can’t possibly be in depth with it to even bring this up. It isn’t the Elephant in the room Ele’s vigor trait didn’t go unseen and got lucky to not get nerfed. Most people understand why it is being left untouched.

This is a perfect example of traits that function similar but are handled different for balance. Also see incendiary powder v dhuumfire. Basically mesmer and guardian nerf has nothing to do with Ele.

oZii.2864:

Kyon.9735:

What most people see from this topic is that “My guard got nerfed, nerf Eles too to make it fair”. Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

I also see someone that says that have a Ele but can’t possibly be in depth with it to even bring this up.

If you’re talking about me, I put that up as a sarcastic “mindless post” in return to the mindless statement “my guard got nerfed, nerf eles to make it fair”. Believe me, I play Ele in depth enough not to QQ in every single forum to nerf every single class that kills me.

My guess is because it’s an major trait as opposed to a minor. That, and Elementalists have a lot less survivability when compared to mesmers or guardians.

Really? You’re complaining about Ele survivability? Really?

Kyon.9735:

oZii.2864:

Kyon.9735:

What most people see from this topic is that “My guard got nerfed, nerf Eles too to make it fair”. Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

I also see someone that says that have a Ele but can’t possibly be in depth with it to even bring this up.

If you’re talking about me, I put that up as a sarcastic “mindless post” in return to the mindless statement “my guard got nerfed, nerf eles to make it fair”. Believe me, I play Ele in depth enough not to QQ in every single forum to nerf every single class that kills me.

No I was agreeing with you and was referring to the OP

It still comes across as a bit double standard though making the statement that they do not want permanent vigor up-time and begin work to lower vigor up-time across many profession, but do not touch a couple of professions in that over all change.

It would be like when they changed quickness, except deciding that it wouldn’t effect one of the quickness granting skills.

Slightly off-topic is the passive of Signet of Stamina on the chopping block as well?

Bran.7425:

It still comes across as a bit double standard though making the statement that they do not want permanent vigor up-time and begin work to lower vigor up-time across many profession, but do not touch a couple of professions in that over all change.

It would be like when they changed quickness, except deciding that it wouldn’t effect one of the quickness granting skills.

Slightly off-topic is the passive of Signet of Stamina on the chopping block as well?

This is different vigor isn’t changing in functionality. Quickness functionality was changed not classes access to it.

So the concept of simile is lost on you. In changing the base up-time of vigor mostly across the board while leaving one or two untouched bring the question on how is that balanced and what was the point of the statement of bring down total vigor across the board other than a PR move to make the players of the profession adjusted first feel that the profession of choice was just being targeted.

They haven’t moved adept trait to master after community claimed ele survivability is already too low. They will probably nerf it after increasing ele sustainability.

I don’t know tbh I personally don’t think vigor uptime on guardian and Mesmer is a problem I have both classes along with my main which is ele. I think this is a s/tPvP focused nerf brought about probably by people claiming there is to much random dodges or people aren’t dodging skillfully. That is the only way I think this came up.

Vigor on mesmer is the same as ele…

Needed but since the trait generating clones on evades is problematic on some builds as often they nerf something else random….that will damage fair builds and reduce build diversity.

Something ele players are used to.

oZii.2864:

I don’t know tbh I personally don’t think vigor uptime on guardian and Mesmer is a problem I have both classes along with my main which is ele. I think this is a s/tPvP focused nerf brought about probably by people claiming there is to much random dodges or people aren’t dodging skillfully. That is the only way I think this came up.

PvP is to blame for most ‘balance’ changes anymore, think about the profession that were adjusted first on the vigor focused patches, Engineer, Ranger, and Thief. The later two known for being evasive. So leaving any profession with better evasive options than the ‘Adventurer’ subgroup is just asking for trouble especially after the whole ‘Make warrior feel like warrior’ skrit for not adjusting Healing Signet anymore than the -8%.

sorrow.2364:

The Primary.6371:

I don’t use it anymore, sigil of energy works way better.

And giving up on Sigil of Battle? No, thanks.

Also, as most here have already said, I’m all up of making Renewing Stamina a minor trait and take the nerf. Being forced to pick that minor trait for survivability reasons is just bad.
I really want to pick Windborne Dagger, Final Shielding, Arcane Master or Blasting Staff, but if I don’t pick Renewing Stamina, I will just die.

In March you can have both Sigil of Energy and Battle — although I think energy is a better sigil, but that’s just my opinion.

Lastly I’d rather have a 5pt vigor trait on 10s cooldown, instead of a 10pt vigor trait on 5s cooldown. The 10/20/30 point traits are too valuable and I’d rather get it for free on the 5/15/25 pt traits. So I totally agree with you here.

It’s probably going to get nerfed once elementalists aren’t completely worthless without it.

Really instead of a Why me and not this guy thread this should have been a discussion on the Concept of to much dodging in Guild Wars 2.

I don’t understand where this even came from. This feels like it should be directed at 10/30/0/30/0 thief builds but is hitting every build including 20 in trick thieves.

I just don’t understand why nerf a all around defense. Less dodges means people take more damage and damage is not a problem in this game at all.

I find it funny how my post gets called a mindless statement, when it’s a legitimate question. Everyone got touchy and defensive about the subject of ele’s vigor on crit. I asked the question because it was stated by a Dev. Anet wanted to change vigor across the board, because they don’t like permanent vigor in the game. Yet they say that they leave Ele’s vigor intact which contradicts their reasoning . This wasn’t a my guard got nerfed so nerf ele post, no where did I even say nerf ele, everyone is just implying and being touchy.

Also getting vigor for 5 points in a mandatory line, yeah we get it for free, but it’s our only access to it out of one utility skill and conversion(PoV or CoP chill to vigor). Now look at ele, they have a crap ton of vigor access, scepter builds have the Phoenix with condi clear(vigor on weapon skills!), Cantrips give regeneration and vigor(They’re reducing AoE’s CD along with Mist Form’s), and other passive trait that increase Endurance regeneration. That is another supporting reason I asked.

My only hope is that when these changes hit, it only hits Spvp, guardians already have enough problems out of Spvp, lack of poor mobility and Soft CC access, making them really easy to kite, or just letting the foe leave when they want too.

@Kyon: Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

I find this funny, highest armor means nothing unless you’re trying to stack it over 3k, and eles already great access to protection(most D/D eles), lolololololol low CD boon skills(You’re getting the CD reduced on Cantrips anyway upcoming balance patch), even though eles can pump out a lot more boons then a shout guardian already, but okay whatever makes sense.

Lucentfir.7430:

I find it funny how my post gets called a mindless statement, when it’s a legitimate question. Everyone got touchy and defensive about the subject of ele’s vigor on crit. I asked the question because it was stated by a Dev. Anet wanted to change vigor across the board, because they don’t like permanent vigor in the game. Yet they say that they leave Ele’s vigor intact which contradicts their reasoning .

Let me help you out since you didn’t take the time to Read about you beloved Guardians vigor and EXACTLY what the Devs said.

Karl McLain.5604:

Profession Changes
Guardian:
We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. We’ve also made a few minor adjustments to healing skills to make them more reliable.

• Litany of Wrath: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.
• Vigorous Precision: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
• Healing Breeze: This ability has been re-scaled so that the guardian receives 50% of the heal near the start of the heal and then heals for 10% for 5 ticks to the caster and up to 5 allies in the cone.

Mesmer:
We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. Based on your feedback, we decided to revert our proposed change to Deceptive Evasion.

• Critical Infusion: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
• Illusion of Drowning: Changed skill from a multi-hit to a single-hit, increasing damage to compensate.

We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with LOW TRAIT INVESTMENTS

Now does this echo the reasons given in this thread by multiple people on why Renewing stamina is not getting nerfed (Again).

Renewing stamina was nerfed already a long time ago. Bountiful thief was nerfed Already. This round it is 5 point trait investment vigor i.e. Guardian and Mesmer.

I am not saying I agree with them nerfing those 2 traits at all because I don’t but at least be correct in what the Devs said when asking about the Elementalist Vigor trait. Many including myself have said why the difference between a 5 point investment and 10 point investment is pretty big.

So your question was already answered by a Dev. You just had to read it.

oZii.2864:

Lucentfir.7430:

I find it funny how my post gets called a mindless statement, when it’s a legitimate question. Everyone got touchy and defensive about the subject of ele’s vigor on crit. I asked the question because it was stated by a Dev. Anet wanted to change vigor across the board, because they don’t like permanent vigor in the game. Yet they say that they leave Ele’s vigor intact which contradicts their reasoning .

Let me help you out since you didn’t take the time to Read about you beloved Guardians vigor and EXACTLY what the Devs said.

Karl McLain.5604:

Profession Changes
Guardian:
_We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. We’ve also made a few minor adjustments to healing skills to make them more reliable._

• Litany of Wrath: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.
  • Vigorous Precision: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.**
• Healing Breeze: This ability has been re-scaled so that the guardian receives 50% of the heal near the start of the heal and then heals for 10% for 5 ticks to the caster and up to 5 allies in the cone.

Mesmer:
_We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. Based on your feedback, we decided to revert our proposed change to Deceptive Evasion._

• Critical Infusion: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
• Illusion of Drowning: Changed skill from a multi-hit to a single-hit, increasing damage to compensate.

_We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with LOW TRAIT INVESTMENTS

Now does this echo the reasons given in this thread by multiple people on why Renewing stamina is not getting nerfed (Again).

Renewing stamina was nerfed already along time ago. Bountiful thief was nerfed Already. This round it is 5 point trait investment vigor i.e. Guardian and Mesmer.

Are we still going to play victim?

Alright you got me there somewhat, but it’s still stated in the bold, it’s not only 5 point low investment traits, it’s means overall access to vigor. And no one is playing victim lol. Everyone in this thread got as touchy as a warrior player about HS. Again let me make myself clear before someone else decides to think i want Ele nerfed, or their vigor trait nerfed, this was a simple question and about vigor access and comparing it to something that is supposedly getting nerfed. As previous your post states I kind of agree I might of kittened up here and should of made this topic a discussion about Vigor and endurance access in general/Dodging to much. Sorry everyone if this post came off the wrong way.

@Ozii- Also I Play my ele from time to time and explored him a bit and playing The Traditional D/D bunker, to a condi spec, 30 in Arcana, is normally Evasive Arcana, Elemental Attunement, and Renewing Stamina, the only one that really contests for me is Windbourne Daggers if i want 25% movement speed.. Also not lying i do have a Ele

Lucentfir.7430:

oZii.2864:

Lucentfir.7430:

I find it funny how my post gets called a mindless statement, when it’s a legitimate question. Everyone got touchy and defensive about the subject of ele’s vigor on crit. I asked the question because it was stated by a Dev. Anet wanted to change vigor across the board, because they don’t like permanent vigor in the game. Yet they say that they leave Ele’s vigor intact which contradicts their reasoning .

Let me help you out since you didn’t take the time to Read about you beloved Guardians vigor and EXACTLY what the Devs said.

Karl McLain.5604:

Profession Changes
Guardian:
_We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. We’ve also made a few minor adjustments to healing skills to make them more reliable._

• Litany of Wrath: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.
  • Vigorous Precision: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.**
• Healing Breeze: This ability has been re-scaled so that the guardian receives 50% of the heal near the start of the heal and then heals for 10% for 5 ticks to the caster and up to 5 allies in the cone.

Mesmer:
_We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. Based on your feedback, we decided to revert our proposed change to Deceptive Evasion._

• Critical Infusion: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
• Illusion of Drowning: Changed skill from a multi-hit to a single-hit, increasing damage to compensate.

_We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with LOW TRAIT INVESTMENTS

Now does this echo the reasons given in this thread by multiple people on why Renewing stamina is not getting nerfed (Again).

Renewing stamina was nerfed already along time ago. Bountiful thief was nerfed Already. This round it is 5 point trait investment vigor i.e. Guardian and Mesmer.

Are we still going to play victim?

Alright you got me there somewhat, but it’s still stated in the bold, it’s not only 5 point low investment traits, it’s means overall access to vigor. And no one is playing victim lol. Everyone in this thread got as touchy as a warrior player about HS. Again let me make myself clear before someone else decides to think i want Ele nerfed, or their vigor trait nerfed, this was a simple question and about vigor access and comparing it to something that is supposedly getting nerfed. As previous your post states I kind of agree I might of kittened up here and should of made this topic a discussion about Vigor and endurance access in general/Dodging to much. Sorry everyone if this post came off the wrong way.

@Ozii- Also I Play my ele from time to time and explored him a bit and playing The Traditional D/D bunker, to a condi spec, 30 in Arcana, is normally Evasive Arcana, Elemental Attunement, and Renewing Stamina, the only one that really contests for me is Windbourne Daggers if i want 25% movement speed.. Also not lying i do have a Ele

So why exactly are you complaining? You know for a fact then that Ele needs the vigor trait more then Mesmer/Guardian.

Lucentfir.7430:

@Kyon: Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

I find this funny, highest armor means nothing unless you’re trying to stack it over 3k, and eles already great access to protection(most D/D eles), lolololololol low CD boon skills(You’re getting the CD reduced on Cantrips anyway upcoming balance patch), even though eles can pump out a lot more boons then a shout guardian already, but okay whatever makes sense.

It means a lot of things. This means you don’t need to invest as many Toughness stat items to achieve that 3k armor mark. Look at warriors, going full zerker with a few Knight/Cavalier pieces will still net them with at least 2.7k armor along with 20k HP. Nerfing Vigor on ele also means a direct nerf to Evasive Arcana not to mention that it is mostly D/D builds that get this trait and they don’t have access to Phoenix.

I probably missed it but from what I’ve read the only cantrip to gets its CD reduced is Armor of Earth (90secs to 75secs for 6 seconds base protection and stability) which was already long overdue. Also, to pump out more boons than guardians requires at least 20 points in Arcana with/or 20 points in Water (soothing disruption).

Once eles get back on par with other classes, then this trait should be nerfed.

Arganthium.5638:

Once eles get back on par with other classes, then this trait should be nerfed.

Should it?

You sound confident that it should be once Ele is on par with other classes but maybe the other changes that happen including this are what put it on par with other classes. What would put elementalist on par with other classes that it’s vigor would still need to be nerfed? Just calling for nerfs is easy and happens alot on these forums.

Any D/D would need sustain regardless of what they do since it is essentially a melee fighter. It wouldn’t be better then a thief at bursting.

Any S/D is going to have to be high crit damage to get good substantial damage so it will be squishier then D/D.

Staff this trait competes with blasting staff and 9/10 blasting staff will always win over this. Then you can have 20 points arcana for both but your losing damage by doing so or your squishy.

D/F or S/F have their issues and will fall in line with either a Bunker or Squishy D/D or a Squishy S/D.

Why would the trait need to be nerfed again? I can’t think of any scenario where they buffed a ele and still need to nerf it. Even the old cantrip bunker wouldn’t last in today’s meta.

I don’t need to advocate much, oZii has this covered.

Let’s just say where guardians get blocks, Mesmer get stealths, thieves get bunches of evades and dodges and stealth, warriors get blocks and invuln, engies get invuln and blocks and dodges. Eles only get 1 skill that makes us invuln on an uncommonly used focus. We have dodges, and that’s how it’s intended.

/thread done.

You might be trying to help your guardian. But you’re potentially hurting eles in the process. Such vindictiveness shouldn’t be around.

Ryld.1340:

So why exactly are you complaining? You know for a fact then that Ele needs the vigor trait more then Mesmer/Guardian.

I have no idea what specific game modes most of your posts are reffering to but perhaps post which game types you’re referring too, if you plan to post after this one?

@Ryld- Just because eles need vigor atm does not mean it would need it more then a guardian or mesmer(maybe, I don’t play mesmer), vigor for guardian is what makes the guardian sustainable through selfless daring, and he kind of needs to dodge, a lot.

@Kyon- Most eles will always put 30 in Arcana for the boon duration, Evasive Arcana and the boon pumping with attunement swap(D/D, Staff support), and you use warrior as a comparison even though he doesn’t have access to protection :|

@Ozii – i’m not going to argue about the trait anymore, but I will say it’s really not a critical choice, for a 10 point trait, you’ll either pick up Blasting Staff, or Renewing stamina(Staff builds), but other builds would probably just pick up Renewing Stamina anyways(unless it’s full Arcane Build). Though point is proven, let’s ust leave Renewing stamina alone.

@Anyone else saying Guardians have blocks.
We have blocks because we have lowest HP, and poor mobility, almost no access to soft CC. All of our blocks only block one hit (Except for Shelter(30 sec on heal 2 second duration) and Focus5(3 hit-kitten CD) And the CDs on are blocks are 30-90s. So yeah…Guardians kind of need vigor like ele does to survive. (outside of the Spvp)

@Mblech it wasn’t aout helping guardian in the first place, it was about vigor access on classes, and why ele got to keep their’s unchanged despite their multiple access to vigor. My intentions aren’t to nerf ele, but merely a question why they got to keep it..

Also in this thread, this kind of reminds me about the Warrior’s HS and how it’s what’s keeping them afloat.

/end of thread for me(most likely).

IMO the sigil needed a nerf… not the traits… but we might also see this when they rebalance the sigils/runes.

I’m still : / about the eng 20 point investment for vigor being nerfed, although I understand that being able to go full bunker and have perma vigor is a bit much… it sucks for the non-bunker builds.