Elemenatlist RTL vs Warrior Rush - Equality

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Posted by: James.3940

James.3940

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush

A long time ago the Elementalist’s Ride the Lightning was nerfed due to the huge mobility aspect of it. The cool down is now double of what it was unless you hit a target. Now Warrior’s have the best mobility, if not close to it. They can Whirlwind, Rush, and keep up perma swiftness.

Rush is essentially the same skill as Ride the Lightning except with a different skin/animation a little difference on damage. Either RtL needs to be reverted, which probably won’t happen as it has been brought up a thousand times, or Rush needs to get the same treatment. I’m late to this but it’s pretty ridiculous how alike these skills are yet how differently ANet has treated them and their respective professions. I’m sure this has been brought up but the search function on this forum hasn’t worked in a long time for me.

The CD should be changed to be the same as RtL, 40 seconds, unless a target is hit. *Alternatively do as Cufufalating says below and make it require a target. Greatsword already has a very good mobility skill otherwise for escaping.

I’ve mained Ele since headstart, my second character was a Warrior and since I’ve gotten each profession to 80 and play them all equally now. I’m not trying to completely nerf Warrior, and I’m sure this won’t hurt them as bad as RtL nerf hurt the Ele, but it’s hard to deny it excels pretty much everywhere in game.

*Fixed an error on my part and changed the alternative to what Cufulating mentioned.

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(edited by James.3940)

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Posted by: Cufufalating.8479

Cufufalating.8479

Been suggested so many times, but ANet seem to have changed their stance on the whole thing. They no longer seem to care that some classes can escape more or less any situation at the drop of a hat.

Personally I am still in favour of every forward leap skill requiring a target, but I doubt it will happen. You’d be better off just asking for them to unnerf RTL.

Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Julie Yann.5379

Julie Yann.5379

Rush is also susceptible to movement impairment like cripples and chills which drastically reduces it range. RTL is not so you can’t really treat them the same. I do agree that GS mobility needs to be toned down. The problem in WvW (where most mobility QQ comes from) is the -40 condition food paired with melandru runes makes us almost immune to those conditions. Removed the +/- condi food (or all food for that matter) and slightly increase the CD on Rush and the it would probably fix the problem.

Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”

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Posted by: Blix.8021

Blix.8021

A warrior who uses rush has to give up a weapon swap for a greatsword.

*GS has no CC abilities except for a cripple, only damage and mobility (although oddly most of the damage comes from 100b which is stationary and channeled).
*GS burst skill is short range and terrible, which means he has one less weapon to synergize with cleansing ire. It also does not synergize well with the longbow, which is popular because of how combustive shot works to proc CI
*Rush distance is slowed by cripple and chill
*Rush is buggy if you use it against actual targets. It sometimes makes you run past the target and swing, missing. Sometimes it makes you run in place when you reach the target, wasting time and missing if they move.

Eles give up nothing for RTL. Dagger is already the most commonly used offhand. Not only that, RTL actually works properly all the time.

So nerf rush’s cooldown if you want. But you have to make it reliable and useful for more than running away, first.

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Posted by: killahmayne.9518

killahmayne.9518

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop

Why does nobody talk about this skill, kind of hypocritical that people only single out Rush when other classes clearly have the same type but even better mobility skills on lesser cooldown.

Mace/Greatsword Video (Sept Patch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoAjKtD6MLY

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Posted by: Wyrden.4713

Wyrden.4713

A warrior who uses rush has to give up a weapon swap for a greatsword.

*GS has no CC abilities except for a cripple, only damage and mobility (although oddly most of the damage comes from 100b which is stationary and channeled).
*GS burst skill is short range and terrible, which means he has one less weapon to synergize with cleansing ire. It also does not synergize well with the longbow, which is popular because of how combustive shot works to proc CI
*Rush distance is slowed by cripple and chill
*Rush is buggy if you use it against actual targets. It sometimes makes you run past the target and swing, missing. Sometimes it makes you run in place when you reach the target, wasting time and missing if they move.

Eles give up nothing for RTL. Dagger is already the most commonly used offhand. Not only that, RTL actually works properly all the time.

So nerf rush’s cooldown if you want. But you have to make it reliable and useful for more than running away, first.

ele has to take offhand dagger. and a lot of wars in wvw use gs

rush is as well affected by swiftness

but no, rush shouldnt be nerfed, rtl needs to be on a 30 s cd

just my ytb channel

FeintFate~

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Posted by: Khenzy.9348

Khenzy.9348

Profession envy has no place in this game given how uterly different each profession is from each other. This little comparison makes very little sense in that regard.
You already have a thread for Warrior mobility complaints: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Warrior-s-Mobility-as-heavy-armor-class/page/2#post4198264

If you are fishing for RTL (or Ele) buffs, you picked the wrong argument.

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Posted by: James.3940

James.3940

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop

Why does nobody talk about this skill, kind of hypocritical that people only single out Rush when other classes clearly have the same type but even better mobility skills on lesser cooldown.

This is true but I’ve personally never considered Ranger as one with extremely good mobility and that is the only movement skill on GS for Ranger unlike Warrior which also has whirlwind.

Profession envy has no place in this game given how uterly different each profession is from each other. This little comparison makes very little sense in that regard.
You already have a thread for Warrior mobility complaints: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Warrior-s-Mobility-as-heavy-armor-class/page/2#post4198264

If you are fishing for RTL (or Ele) buffs, you picked the wrong argument.

RTL buffs have been asked for a long time since the nerf and nothing has yet changed about it. I’m not seeing where you are getting this concept of “profession envy” from. I play every class, have a 80 of each that all get there share of PvE and WvW with a bit of PvP. Ele is my ‘main’. It was my first character that I made within minutes of the servers going up and I try to do everything on it since I greatly enjoy it. It’s my character that carries so many special items that I only have 10 inventory slots. Besides that I’m greatly enjoying the other classes and I don’t expect all classes to be completely equal, its just that seeing Warriors stand out so much when other classes were nerfed for the reasons that currently make the Warrior better is quite odd. I guess I should have posted this in the Warrior mobility complaint thread but I didn’t see that at the time I posted and as I said the search function hasn’t worked in a long time, it always comes up blank.

Anyways I’m not expecting anything to happen. I just posted this to see what other people think about these two skills since both classes have been accused of having such high mobility and only one got a nerf.

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Posted by: Wyrden.4713

Wyrden.4713

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop

Why does nobody talk about this skill, kind of hypocritical that people only single out Rush when other classes clearly have the same type but even better mobility skills on lesser cooldown.

This is true but I’ve personally never considered Ranger as one with extremely good mobility and that is the only movement skill on GS for Ranger unlike Warrior which also has whirlwind.

Profession envy has no place in this game given how uterly different each profession is from each other. This little comparison makes very little sense in that regard.
You already have a thread for Warrior mobility complaints: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Warrior-s-Mobility-as-heavy-armor-class/page/2#post4198264

If you are fishing for RTL (or Ele) buffs, you picked the wrong argument.

RTL buffs have been asked for a long time since the nerf and nothing has yet changed about it. I’m not seeing where you are getting this concept of “profession envy” from. I play every class, have a 80 of each that all get there share of PvE and WvW with a bit of PvP. Ele is my ‘main’. It was my first character that I made within minutes of the servers going up and I try to do everything on it since I greatly enjoy it. It’s my character that carries so many special items that I only have 10 inventory slots. Besides that I’m greatly enjoying the other classes and I don’t expect all classes to be completely equal, its just that seeing Warriors stand out so much when other classes were nerfed for the reasons that currently make the Warrior better is quite odd. I guess I should have posted this in the Warrior mobility complaint thread but I didn’t see that at the time I posted and as I said the search function hasn’t worked in a long time, it always comes up blank.

Anyways I’m not expecting anything to happen. I just posted this to see what other people think about these two skills since both classes have been accused of having such high mobility and only one got a nerf.

ranger sword has insane mobility if they use their leap skill properly with the ‘about face’ button, same for staff 2 on mes, traited its a small leap every 5 sec(but the mesmer one is rly rly weak in terms of mobility)

just my ytb channel

FeintFate~

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Posted by: Atoss.1056

Atoss.1056

Ranger can be crippled, chilled or immobilized at least for long enough to give you a chance to catch up, warriors in many/most cases – can’t.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I still think a better (and global!) fix would be to make all non-skillshot and hence targeted movement skills fail if you lack either of:

  • A selected target.
  • Range to actually reach that target with the skill.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Julie Yann.5379

Julie Yann.5379

Ranger can be crippled, chilled or immobilized at least for long enough to give you a chance to catch up, warriors in many/most cases – can’t.

That’s why I say that removing +/- condition duration food from WvW would probably fix most of the warrior mobility problem. Even with Dogged Marche and Melandru runes you can immobilize/chill, cripple warriors long enough to keep them in combat if they don’t have the food.

Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”

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Posted by: Zagerus.8675

Zagerus.8675

I think as Julie stated above, as far as comparing professions goes it’s not a level comparison when you contrast what one profession can do compared to another. RTL was nerfed because they didn’t want eles to be the be all/end all profession. They were extremely good at sustain, team support AND mobility. A lot of eles RTL’ed out of fights, cleansed everything off and got full regen then jumped right back into the fight. Currently though, I wouldn’t see a reason that they couldn’t revert to the old cooldown.. The meta is different now and I think it could healthily support a lower RTL Cool down.

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Posted by: Wyrden.4713

Wyrden.4713

20 s is honestly rly low tho, if they plan on reverting it, they should make it 30 s or so

just my ytb channel

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Warrior griping about a buggy leap skill…. looks at mesmer illusionary leap

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

That’s why I say that removing +/- condition duration food from WvW would probably fix most of the warrior mobility problem. Even with Dogged Marche and Melandru runes you can immobilize/chill, cripple warriors long enough to keep them in combat if they don’t have the food.

personally, i think Dogged March is the culprit – it’s way too strong for an adept trait.

i think Ele would play better with RTL on a shorter CD again but maybe make it affected by chill/cripple instead.

IMO it’s a bit too easy to kite a D/D these days with only 1 good gap closer on a 40sec CD when it’s such an easy skill to dodge.

downed state is bad for PVP

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Posted by: James.3940

James.3940

IMO it’s a bit too easy to kite a D/D these days with only 1 good gap closer on a 40sec CD when it’s such an easy skill to dodge.

This gave me an idea since RtL is easy to dodge causing the CD to be 40 seconds. What if RtL halved its CD if you had a target at the time of casting regardless of it hitting or not? Could still be used for escaping if there is an enemy in the opposite direction but it keeps the skill viable in fights and a better chance at catching someone trying to run.

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Posted by: Razor.6392

Razor.6392

Under the easy principle that a heavy class should not be anywhere near top 3 of the most mobile, this skill should be nerfed.

Can’t reduce the range, because some NPC’s also use it.

So increase the cooldown to 30 seconds, with no other conditions involved because it’s actually affected by cripple and such (not like it matters with dogged march) and because the skill almost never hits and it’s extremely easy to dodge.

30 seconds at all times wouldn’t be too harsh imo…

Level 60 pvp
Ele & thief main (full ascended)
Down with the braindead faceroll classes.

(edited by Razor.6392)

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

I’d say nerf Rush and nerf RtL so they are affected by cripple and chill as well, and rush has the similar CD treatements as ele.

For all you warrior worshippers who cite this as a weakness, just realize how not every class has the ability to apply cripple and chill reliably, and as far as WvW goes, lets see how much melandru and lemongrass have to say about condition based CC.

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

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Posted by: wads.5730

wads.5730

im all for nerfing the kitten out of rush, as long as they fix the bugs with the skill. you literally don’t connect with a stationary target like half the time, its alot worse against a moving target.

i would LOVE to use rush as an offensive skill, but right now it literally almost never hits the target, forcing the skill to be used as an escape.

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

It is no more or less problematic then any other movement skill when it comes to bugs. None of them mesh well with the environment in particular.

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Posted by: Razor.6392

Razor.6392

I still think a better (and global!) fix would be to make all non-skillshot and hence targeted movement skills fail if you lack either of:

  • A selected target.
  • Range to actually reach that target with the skill.

Thieves indirect (and massive) buff.

Level 60 pvp
Ele & thief main (full ascended)
Down with the braindead faceroll classes.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Thieves indirect (and massive) buff.

Maybe. But it’d be wrong to not fix a game-wide issue just because it requires later nerfing of a single class. Or even multiple.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Rush is on a Warrior, and RtL is on an Elementalist. ANet felt that the Elementalist’s versatility in X/D coupled with its low cooldown escape was too much, so they nerfed RtL, but apparently don’t feel that way about a Warrior for whatever reason. They’re different classes, and different classes do not need equality in all similar skills to be balanced next to each other.

I don’t think Rush is too strong personally. I think the bigger culprit is Savage Leap myself.

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Posted by: Wyrden.4713

Wyrden.4713

You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Rush is on a Warrior, and RtL is on an Elementalist. ANet felt that the Elementalist’s versatility in X/D coupled with its low cooldown escape was too much, so they nerfed RtL, but apparently don’t feel that way about a Warrior for whatever reason. They’re different classes, and different classes do not need equality in all similar skills to be balanced next to each other.

I don’t think Rush is too strong personally. I think the bigger culprit is Savage Leap myself.

+1 savage leap cd too low and 700-800 range idk

just my ytb channel

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Posted by: Razor.6392

Razor.6392

You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Rush is on a Warrior, and RtL is on an Elementalist. ANet felt that the Elementalist’s versatility in X/D coupled with its low cooldown escape was too much, so they nerfed RtL, but apparently don’t feel that way about a Warrior for whatever reason. They’re different classes, and different classes do not need equality in all similar skills to be balanced next to each other.

I don’t think Rush is too strong personally. I think the bigger culprit is Savage Leap myself.

What most people despised about facing elementalists, is that even if they were losing, nothing stopped them from simply resetting the fight with complete impunity through RtL usage.

I don’t see how this is any different, taking also into consideration how warriors’ sustain isn’t that far off when compared to an ele’s.

Level 60 pvp
Ele & thief main (full ascended)
Down with the braindead faceroll classes.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Rush is on a Warrior, and RtL is on an Elementalist. ANet felt that the Elementalist’s versatility in X/D coupled with its low cooldown escape was too much, so they nerfed RtL, but apparently don’t feel that way about a Warrior for whatever reason. They’re different classes, and different classes do not need equality in all similar skills to be balanced next to each other.

I don’t think Rush is too strong personally. I think the bigger culprit is Savage Leap myself.

What most people despised about facing elementalists, is that even if they were losing, nothing stopped them from simply resetting the fight with complete impunity through RtL usage.

I don’t see how this is any different, taking also into consideration how warriors’ sustain isn’t that far off when compared to an ele’s.

I agree with RisingDusk in principle, not every ability needs the same balancing as different professions need different things.

I do think you hit it right on the head. Why are warriors/thieves complained about so much? Because you fight them, and if you start to win they run away and wait for their cooldowns and then come back. It’s beyond annoying.

Of course that is the thief, that’s why they’re typically one of the “OP” classes in any game.

Warriors though, I just can’t say I’ve seen them being able to run away being a motif. The way I see it in GW2 the warrior is Sir Robin, bravely running away…

I’m not sure I want warriors nerfed because being able to dash across zones makes the PVE side much nicer, but god, all these cowardly PVP warriors sure are annoying.

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Posted by: Razor.6392

Razor.6392

You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Rush is on a Warrior, and RtL is on an Elementalist. ANet felt that the Elementalist’s versatility in X/D coupled with its low cooldown escape was too much, so they nerfed RtL, but apparently don’t feel that way about a Warrior for whatever reason. They’re different classes, and different classes do not need equality in all similar skills to be balanced next to each other.

I don’t think Rush is too strong personally. I think the bigger culprit is Savage Leap myself.

What most people despised about facing elementalists, is that even if they were losing, nothing stopped them from simply resetting the fight with complete impunity through RtL usage.

I don’t see how this is any different, taking also into consideration how warriors’ sustain isn’t that far off when compared to an ele’s.

I agree with RisingDusk in principle, not every ability needs the same balancing as different professions need different things.

I do think you hit it right on the head. Why are warriors/thieves complained about so much? Because you fight them, and if you start to win they run away and wait for their cooldowns and then come back. It’s beyond annoying.

Of course that is the thief, that’s why they’re typically one of the “OP” classes in any game.

Warriors though, I just can’t say I’ve seen them being able to run away being a motif. The way I see it in GW2 the warrior is Sir Robin, bravely running away…

I’m not sure I want warriors nerfed because being able to dash across zones makes the PVE side much nicer, but god, all these cowardly PVP warriors sure are annoying.

Lmfao, indeed. It must come from the fact that most people play warrior perhaps.

I just want some fairness. Thieves getting away? well, they’re extremely squishy at least. Eles getting away, while being a healing / boon powerhouse was maybe a bit dumb (despite being even more squishy than a thief).

But warriors doing the same? That’s just absurd. Let warriors be known for their high vitality, cc, armor, base damage and sustain :^) but don’t add mobility on top of that.

Level 60 pvp
Ele & thief main (full ascended)
Down with the braindead faceroll classes.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

I think mobility should very well be in their kitten nal, but not to run away, just to keep up. Though Personally I feel this is a pretty minor issue with the mediocre pvp in this game and I’d hate to see it’s PVE uses nerfed because of a bunch of cowardly PVP players.

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Posted by: crunchyraisin.6054

crunchyraisin.6054

I’m going to agree with dusk…ele’s and wars are apples and oranges. No warrior cries because they can’t drop rocks that hit for 8k each or lightning flash into a churning earth or use mistform.

I also believe that RTL is a little bit faster than rush without swiftness. At least it seems this way.

For what it’s worth, I choose to roam on d/d ele instead of any of my warrior builds. It seems to take down the camps faster than my condi-war or my hambow, and it has more mobility than either of them. It survives better during the fight, does not require LOSing and handles itself much nicer in 1v1’s. Anything it won’t kill (condi theif/pu mes) it can escape from with ease. In spite of having full ascended on my warrior, I find my d/d ele out-performs my warrior while roaming.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush

A long time ago the Elementalist’s Ride the Lightning was nerfed due to the huge mobility aspect of it. The cool down is now double of what it was unless you hit a target. Now Warrior’s have the best mobility, if not close to it. They can Whirlwind, Rush, and keep up perma swiftness.

Rush is essentially the same skill as Ride the Lightning except with a different skin/animation a little difference on damage. Either RtL needs to be reverted, which probably won’t happen as it has been brought up a thousand times, or Rush needs to get the same treatment. I’m late to this but it’s pretty ridiculous how alike these skills are yet how differently ANet has treated them and their respective professions. I’m sure this has been brought up but the search function on this forum hasn’t worked in a long time for me.

The CD should be changed to be the same as RtL, 40 seconds, unless a target is hit. *Alternatively do as Cufufalating says below and make it require a target. Greatsword already has a very good mobility skill otherwise for escaping.

I’ve mained Ele since headstart, my second character was a Warrior and since I’ve gotten each profession to 80 and play them all equally now. I’m not trying to completely nerf Warrior, and I’m sure this won’t hurt them as bad as RtL nerf hurt the Ele, but it’s hard to deny it excels pretty much everywhere in game.

*Fixed an error on my part and changed the alternative to what Cufulating mentioned.

Have you actually checked if rush actually hits before making claims such as " 40s cd unless it hits".

Please stop asking for the wrong fixes – yes rush should be fixed – and by fixed I mean it should be made to work correctly -after all it’s been 2 years.

I also don’t see why GS mobility should be affected ( affecting both PVE and sPVP) for a WvW issue that has more to do with the -condition duration food than with the GS itself.

If anything – the consumables should be looked at since they’re the main cause of these issues.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

consumables are fine, PvE, WvW are not supposed to be balanced, it is all about best in stats.

sPvP is where the balance is.

do not forget that profession skill balance is focused on 5 vs 5 conquest mode team arena and nothing else matters.

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Posted by: Paavotar.3971

Paavotar.3971

consumables are fine, PvE, WvW are not supposed to be balanced, it is all about best in stats.

sPvP is where the balance is.

do not forget that profession skill balance is focused on 5 vs 5 conquest mode team arena and nothing else matters.

And because stuff is balanced around sPvP 5v5 environment I suppose you don’t mind they nerf the +/- condi duration food, do you?

Because if we are serious here, the Warrior mobility issues are in that food and the amount warriors can/will stack negative condition duration for move impaire skills. Move impaire conditions is what kills the warriors in WvW and thats why you see so many warriors stacking melandru runes, food and the trait.

And sure, even after the food nerf warriors will still run away with berserker stance up and theres not a thing you can do about it, but at least it’s not passive and the warrior has to burn two to four skills to make an escape.

A Pink scumbag of [FACE] and deep inside a [GuM]ster
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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Paavotar,
i dun mind.
i only eat mango pies anyway.
i’m a cheapskate.

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop

Why does nobody talk about this skill, kind of hypocritical that people only single out Rush when other classes clearly have the same type but even better mobility skills on lesser cooldown.

Are you being serious here?
Have you ever even tried playing a power spec Ranger in WvW?

As soon as anyone with a real build sees you, it’s like someone rang the Dinner bell.
There’s been atleast a dozen threads about it in the Ranger forum but you probably wouldn’t know that unless you actually played the class a lot.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

ilr – the issue here is people are comparing apples and oranges and calling them the same.

RTL was a very different skill than Rush. The context of the skills also differs a lot since Elementalist and Warrior are very different classes.

This hasn’t stopped anyone from asking that Rush be nerfed the same way RTL was – so in a sense you can see why Swoop is being thrown in the mix as well.

This is what happens when people who are dissatisfied with the game start going on “which hunts” – they keep asking for things that they dislike to be changed/nerfed instead of trying to see that maybe their point of view isn’t the only one and maybe – just maybe they might not even be right.

That’s why if Rush was nerfed now or later people will just migrate to the next thing they consider should be changed (regardless of whether it actually works fine or not) and spam the forums with that.

I think that over 80% of the “the game isn’t right – here’s what you need to do to fix it” threads on the forums have little to do with the actual game and a lot to do with human nature.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

ilr – the issue here is people are comparing apples and oranges and calling them the same.

RTL was a very different skill than Rush. The context of the skills also differs a lot since Elementalist and Warrior are very different classes.

This hasn’t stopped anyone from asking that Rush be nerfed the same way RTL was – so in a sense you can see why Swoop is being thrown in the mix as well.

This is what happens when people who are dissatisfied with the game start going on “which hunts” – they keep asking for things that they dislike to be changed/nerfed instead of trying to see that maybe their point of view isn’t the only one and maybe – just maybe they might not even be right.

That’s why if Rush was nerfed now or later people will just migrate to the next thing they consider should be changed (regardless of whether it actually works fine or not) and spam the forums with that.

I think that over 80% of the “the game isn’t right – here’s what you need to do to fix it” threads on the forums have little to do with the actual game and a lot to do with human nature.

Witch Hunts not Which hunts sorry it made me laugh.

I don’t disagree people will always whine about something. But, I really think the “ohh it’s the condi food” claim is simply a scapegoat being used. The problem is warriors have a ridiculous amount of tools that let them run away. Why? Why is that badkitten profession that’s supposed to be a front line slaughterhouse so good at running away?

Again though, I don’t necessarily want a nerf but it seems odd to me. And the amount of people trying to deflect the discussion is if anything confirmation that it’s a bit off.

Warriors surely should have mobility. They are above average in every core mechanic in the game, that’s what they are. Where other professions get their special tools warriors are just supreme kittenes of everything normal. But, should that include the capability to run away like cowards? Should they be able to run away with ease every time they start to lose?

Personally though, the downed state and the complete mess that is conditions in this game make the entire PVP part of the game pretty mediocre to me, so I don’t really like the idea of nerfs for PVP that ruin things in PVE where they aren’t an issue so /shrug. I just really don’t see how anyone can not see the issue here.

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Posted by: killahmayne.9518

killahmayne.9518

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop

Why does nobody talk about this skill, kind of hypocritical that people only single out Rush when other classes clearly have the same type but even better mobility skills on lesser cooldown.

Are you being serious here?
Have you ever even tried playing a power spec Ranger in WvW?

As soon as anyone with a real build sees you, it’s like someone rang the Dinner bell.
There’s been atleast a dozen threads about it in the Ranger forum but you probably wouldn’t know that unless you actually played the class a lot.

It is like you purposely ignore the point of this thread.

We are talking about movement skills like Rush and RTL STRICTLY. Nobody is talking about how powerful the Greatsword is in terms of damage and how viable it is.

People are talking about how Rush needs to see the same treatment as RTL, however I am merely pointing out there are many skills like Rush (on a lesser CD for that matter) that exist in the game and that it is hypocritical that it is the only skill being singled out because it is a Warrior we are talking about.

And yes I have tried a power ranger build in WvW, and the Greatsword is a very good weapon. Implying that you can’t have a real build if you use a greatsword just shows how much you know about anything and pretty much how bad people are because Ranger isn’t as bad as a class as people think they are. I agree they have issues in terms of pets, some of their ranged options and traits and their usefulness in zergs but as roamers and small group fighters they are perfectly fine.

Mace/Greatsword Video (Sept Patch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoAjKtD6MLY

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Posted by: crunchyraisin.6054

crunchyraisin.6054

List of reasons why rush is not heavily op:

1.) It is slower than RTL.
2.) Eles have twice as many skills to choose from, and should expect slightly longer cooldowns on similar skills because of this.
3.) RTL’s damage is aoe.
4.) Warriors and eles have completely different class mechanics. For warriors to be effective, they must melee. In order to melee effectively the class needs gap closers.
5.) Eles have a completely different set of utilities compared to warrior. At no point should an ele look at a warrior skill and say “eles should be able to do exactly the same thing” Just like warriors should not look at other classes and think they should be able to blind/aegis/aoe heal/teleport/stealth/pull etc…

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

List of reasons why rush is not heavily op:

1.) It is slower than RTL.
2.) Eles have twice as many skills to choose from, and should expect slightly longer cooldowns on similar skills because of this.
3.) RTL’s damage is aoe.
4.) Warriors and eles have completely different class mechanics. For warriors to be effective, they must melee. In order to melee effectively the class needs gap closers.
5.) Eles have a completely different set of utilities compared to warrior. At no point should an ele look at a warrior skill and say “eles should be able to do exactly the same thing” Just like warriors should not look at other classes and think they should be able to blind/aegis/aoe heal/teleport/stealth/pull etc…

This isn’t a list of “why Rush isn’t heavily OP” this is a list of ways that it’s inferior to RTL… On topic for the discussion, but not what you claim it is in the first line.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

ilr – the issue here is people are comparing apples and oranges and calling them the same.

RTL was a very different skill than Rush. The context of the skills also differs a lot since Elementalist and Warrior are very different classes.

This hasn’t stopped anyone from asking that Rush be nerfed the same way RTL was – so in a sense you can see why Swoop is being thrown in the mix as well.

This is what happens when people who are dissatisfied with the game start going on “which hunts” – they keep asking for things that they dislike to be changed/nerfed instead of trying to see that maybe their point of view isn’t the only one and maybe – just maybe they might not even be right.

That’s why if Rush was nerfed now or later people will just migrate to the next thing they consider should be changed (regardless of whether it actually works fine or not) and spam the forums with that.

I think that over 80% of the “the game isn’t right – here’s what you need to do to fix it” threads on the forums have little to do with the actual game and a lot to do with human nature.

Witch Hunts not Which hunts sorry it made me laugh.

I don’t disagree people will always whine about something. But, I really think the “ohh it’s the condi food” claim is simply a scapegoat being used. The problem is warriors have a ridiculous amount of tools that let them run away. Why? Why is that badkitten profession that’s supposed to be a front line slaughterhouse so good at running away?

Again though, I don’t necessarily want a nerf but it seems odd to me. And the amount of people trying to deflect the discussion is if anything confirmation that it’s a bit off.

Warriors surely should have mobility. They are above average in every core mechanic in the game, that’s what they are. Where other professions get their special tools warriors are just supreme kittenes of everything normal. But, should that include the capability to run away like cowards? Should they be able to run away with ease every time they start to lose?

Personally though, the downed state and the complete mess that is conditions in this game make the entire PVP part of the game pretty mediocre to me, so I don’t really like the idea of nerfs for PVP that ruin things in PVE where they aren’t an issue so /shrug. I just really don’t see how anyone can not see the issue here.

Correct – witch – I got that wrong.

You mention they shouldn’t run away – I disagree – you should have the option to disengage.

Unlike other classes that have mechanics that allow for this warriors don’t – so if you make them unable to disengage you’re making them very easy to kite and kill.

You call them above average in every mechanic – but that’s not really true. Other classes outperform them easily.

Also a lot of people are defending warrior because a lot of people remember the pathetic state the class was in for a good half a year or more after release.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

Perhaps, but I believe most players issue is that they can disengage AND have ridiculous regen AND highest health pool AND the highest base armor AND solid condition cleanse AND some CC AND solid damage, in the same build that allows then to disengage so easily.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

ilr – the issue here is people are comparing apples and oranges and calling them the same.

RTL was a very different skill than Rush. The context of the skills also differs a lot since Elementalist and Warrior are very different classes.

This hasn’t stopped anyone from asking that Rush be nerfed the same way RTL was – so in a sense you can see why Swoop is being thrown in the mix as well.

This is what happens when people who are dissatisfied with the game start going on “which hunts” – they keep asking for things that they dislike to be changed/nerfed instead of trying to see that maybe their point of view isn’t the only one and maybe – just maybe they might not even be right.

That’s why if Rush was nerfed now or later people will just migrate to the next thing they consider should be changed (regardless of whether it actually works fine or not) and spam the forums with that.

I think that over 80% of the “the game isn’t right – here’s what you need to do to fix it” threads on the forums have little to do with the actual game and a lot to do with human nature.

Witch Hunts not Which hunts sorry it made me laugh.

I don’t disagree people will always whine about something. But, I really think the “ohh it’s the condi food” claim is simply a scapegoat being used. The problem is warriors have a ridiculous amount of tools that let them run away. Why? Why is that badkitten profession that’s supposed to be a front line slaughterhouse so good at running away?

Again though, I don’t necessarily want a nerf but it seems odd to me. And the amount of people trying to deflect the discussion is if anything confirmation that it’s a bit off.

Warriors surely should have mobility. They are above average in every core mechanic in the game, that’s what they are. Where other professions get their special tools warriors are just supreme kittenes of everything normal. But, should that include the capability to run away like cowards? Should they be able to run away with ease every time they start to lose?

Personally though, the downed state and the complete mess that is conditions in this game make the entire PVP part of the game pretty mediocre to me, so I don’t really like the idea of nerfs for PVP that ruin things in PVE where they aren’t an issue so /shrug. I just really don’t see how anyone can not see the issue here.

Correct – witch – I got that wrong.

You mention they shouldn’t run away – I disagree – you should have the option to disengage.

Unlike other classes that have mechanics that allow for this warriors don’t – so if you make them unable to disengage you’re making them very easy to kite and kill.

You call them above average in every mechanic – but that’s not really true. Other classes outperform them easily.

Also a lot of people are defending warrior because a lot of people remember the pathetic state the class was in for a good half a year or more after release.

That’s the thing, There’s a difference between not having tools for mobility and not having tools to run the hell away. As I said I very much think Mobility should be part of the Warrior toolset. But being able to turn tail and run? naw. Their mobility should be more about gap closing than pulling a Brave Sir Robin and dashing away from combat.

But, I don’t trust ANet to approach this with a soft hand, I’d put money on them just ruining the ability for the PVE side if they chose to change it. So, I’m not for any kind of nerf. I just felt the need to speak up because I find it disgusting how much people are trying to deflect the issue and just strait up lying about the mobility of the warrior profession.

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Posted by: crunchyraisin.6054

crunchyraisin.6054

List of reasons why rush is not heavily op:

1.) It is slower than RTL.
2.) Eles have twice as many skills to choose from, and should expect slightly longer cooldowns on similar skills because of this.
3.) RTL’s damage is aoe.
4.) Warriors and eles have completely different class mechanics. For warriors to be effective, they must melee. In order to melee effectively the class needs gap closers.
5.) Eles have a completely different set of utilities compared to warrior. At no point should an ele look at a warrior skill and say “eles should be able to do exactly the same thing” Just like warriors should not look at other classes and think they should be able to blind/aegis/aoe heal/teleport/stealth/pull etc…

This isn’t a list of “why Rush isn’t heavily OP” this is a list of ways that it’s inferior to RTL… On topic for the discussion, but not what you claim it is in the first line.

Touché ..bad word choice on my part. It’s not op because it’s easily dodged or controlled and because of terrible gs auto attack.

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Posted by: warriorjrd.8695

warriorjrd.8695

List of reasons why rush is not heavily op:

1.) It is slower than RTL.
2.) Eles have twice as many skills to choose from, and should expect slightly longer cooldowns on similar skills because of this.
3.) RTL’s damage is aoe.
4.) Warriors and eles have completely different class mechanics. For warriors to be effective, they must melee. In order to melee effectively the class needs gap closers.
5.) Eles have a completely different set of utilities compared to warrior. At no point should an ele look at a warrior skill and say “eles should be able to do exactly the same thing” Just like warriors should not look at other classes and think they should be able to blind/aegis/aoe heal/teleport/stealth/pull etc…

Looking at point 3, RTl’s damage may be Aoe, but it hit hits nowhere near as high as rush can. Looking at point 4, D/D eles are basically melee as well and need gap closers too. Looking at point 5, I don’t think anybody is asking to remove the RTL nerf, but instead to move rush down to the same level. The issue here is both skills were/are being used for the same thing, which is escaping to reset a right. Rush should have the same penalty if you don’t hit a target, this really shouldn’t even be up for debate. The only reason you could see an issue with that is when you are one of the people who use to run away because you don’t know how to fight. If you actually use it to gap close, there would be no issue with the CD because you would hit them.


It is not what you do, but how and why you do it that counts.

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Posted by: Dagraan.2854

Dagraan.2854

the reason it hasn’t been changed is because for a warrior to go full mobility he has to use a GS ( a bad pvp weapon) and a sword/warhorn (almost as bad) bull’s rush as 1 utility traits set up for shorter CD on signets, break movement conditions on movement skills and maybe the warhorn trait, which they have to give up equally as good ones to get that.

idk about you but iv’e never lost to mobility warriors 1v1 in a fight, thats because their high damage skills can just be backstepped out of.

the elementalists has 4 weapon sets in 1 yes its true even still their mobility isnt as good but they can have both damage and some mobility, did RTL need that big of nerf? no but its not changing.

now thieves i’d explain about them but then i’d have a bunch of baddies who only play thief come on here and yell at me about how its perfectly balanced on their class because their so weak.
even though eles have lower hp and armor.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

ilr – the issue here is people are comparing apples and oranges and calling them the same.

RTL was a very different skill than Rush. The context of the skills also differs a lot since Elementalist and Warrior are very different classes.

This hasn’t stopped anyone from asking that Rush be nerfed the same way RTL was – so in a sense you can see why Swoop is being thrown in the mix as well.

This is what happens when people who are dissatisfied with the game start going on “which hunts” – they keep asking for things that they dislike to be changed/nerfed instead of trying to see that maybe their point of view isn’t the only one and maybe – just maybe they might not even be right.

That’s why if Rush was nerfed now or later people will just migrate to the next thing they consider should be changed (regardless of whether it actually works fine or not) and spam the forums with that.

I think that over 80% of the “the game isn’t right – here’s what you need to do to fix it” threads on the forums have little to do with the actual game and a lot to do with human nature.

Witch Hunts not Which hunts sorry it made me laugh.

I don’t disagree people will always whine about something. But, I really think the “ohh it’s the condi food” claim is simply a scapegoat being used. The problem is warriors have a ridiculous amount of tools that let them run away. Why? Why is that badkitten profession that’s supposed to be a front line slaughterhouse so good at running away?

Again though, I don’t necessarily want a nerf but it seems odd to me. And the amount of people trying to deflect the discussion is if anything confirmation that it’s a bit off.

Warriors surely should have mobility. They are above average in every core mechanic in the game, that’s what they are. Where other professions get their special tools warriors are just supreme kittenes of everything normal. But, should that include the capability to run away like cowards? Should they be able to run away with ease every time they start to lose?

Personally though, the downed state and the complete mess that is conditions in this game make the entire PVP part of the game pretty mediocre to me, so I don’t really like the idea of nerfs for PVP that ruin things in PVE where they aren’t an issue so /shrug. I just really don’t see how anyone can not see the issue here.

Correct – witch – I got that wrong.

You mention they shouldn’t run away – I disagree – you should have the option to disengage.

Unlike other classes that have mechanics that allow for this warriors don’t – so if you make them unable to disengage you’re making them very easy to kite and kill.

You call them above average in every mechanic – but that’s not really true. Other classes outperform them easily.

Also a lot of people are defending warrior because a lot of people remember the pathetic state the class was in for a good half a year or more after release.

That’s the thing, There’s a difference between not having tools for mobility and not having tools to run the hell away. As I said I very much think Mobility should be part of the Warrior toolset. But being able to turn tail and run? naw. Their mobility should be more about gap closing than pulling a Brave Sir Robin and dashing away from combat.

But, I don’t trust ANet to approach this with a soft hand, I’d put money on them just ruining the ability for the PVE side if they chose to change it. So, I’m not for any kind of nerf. I just felt the need to speak up because I find it disgusting how much people are trying to deflect the issue and just strait up lying about the mobility of the warrior profession.

And why should warrior not turn and run from a fight that they can’t win? / multiple opponents?

I’m very curious what the actual arguments are – apart from " i don’t think they should be able to".

Because I also “think” game mechanics should be different.
I think thief attacks out of stealth should do probably 2x or more the amount of damage they do now – you are hitting an unsuspecting foe.
I also think that if a stealthed thief is hit by a player – the thief should be revealed.

I also think rangers should have stowable pets.

But that doesn’t mean I’m right nor does it mean my suggestions are good.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Killface.1896

Killface.1896

Remove warriors speed then you have literally change them to guardians that cant chase or run away.

And eles still have there FGS that lot faster than war GS and have range attacks

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

ilr – the issue here is people are comparing apples and oranges and calling them the same.

RTL was a very different skill than Rush. The context of the skills also differs a lot since Elementalist and Warrior are very different classes.

This hasn’t stopped anyone from asking that Rush be nerfed the same way RTL was – so in a sense you can see why Swoop is being thrown in the mix as well.

This is what happens when people who are dissatisfied with the game start going on “which hunts” – they keep asking for things that they dislike to be changed/nerfed instead of trying to see that maybe their point of view isn’t the only one and maybe – just maybe they might not even be right.

That’s why if Rush was nerfed now or later people will just migrate to the next thing they consider should be changed (regardless of whether it actually works fine or not) and spam the forums with that.

I think that over 80% of the “the game isn’t right – here’s what you need to do to fix it” threads on the forums have little to do with the actual game and a lot to do with human nature.

Witch Hunts not Which hunts sorry it made me laugh.

I don’t disagree people will always whine about something. But, I really think the “ohh it’s the condi food” claim is simply a scapegoat being used. The problem is warriors have a ridiculous amount of tools that let them run away. Why? Why is that badkitten profession that’s supposed to be a front line slaughterhouse so good at running away?

Again though, I don’t necessarily want a nerf but it seems odd to me. And the amount of people trying to deflect the discussion is if anything confirmation that it’s a bit off.

Warriors surely should have mobility. They are above average in every core mechanic in the game, that’s what they are. Where other professions get their special tools warriors are just supreme kittenes of everything normal. But, should that include the capability to run away like cowards? Should they be able to run away with ease every time they start to lose?

Personally though, the downed state and the complete mess that is conditions in this game make the entire PVP part of the game pretty mediocre to me, so I don’t really like the idea of nerfs for PVP that ruin things in PVE where they aren’t an issue so /shrug. I just really don’t see how anyone can not see the issue here.

Correct – witch – I got that wrong.

You mention they shouldn’t run away – I disagree – you should have the option to disengage.

Unlike other classes that have mechanics that allow for this warriors don’t – so if you make them unable to disengage you’re making them very easy to kite and kill.

You call them above average in every mechanic – but that’s not really true. Other classes outperform them easily.

Also a lot of people are defending warrior because a lot of people remember the pathetic state the class was in for a good half a year or more after release.

That’s the thing, There’s a difference between not having tools for mobility and not having tools to run the hell away. As I said I very much think Mobility should be part of the Warrior toolset. But being able to turn tail and run? naw. Their mobility should be more about gap closing than pulling a Brave Sir Robin and dashing away from combat.

But, I don’t trust ANet to approach this with a soft hand, I’d put money on them just ruining the ability for the PVE side if they chose to change it. So, I’m not for any kind of nerf. I just felt the need to speak up because I find it disgusting how much people are trying to deflect the issue and just strait up lying about the mobility of the warrior profession.

And why should warrior not turn and run from a fight that they can’t win? / multiple opponents?

I’m very curious what the actual arguments are – apart from " i don’t think they should be able to".

Because I also “think” game mechanics should be different.
I think thief attacks out of stealth should do probably 2x or more the amount of damage they do now – you are hitting an unsuspecting foe.
I also think that if a stealthed thief is hit by a player – the thief should be revealed.

I also think rangers should have stowable pets.

But that doesn’t mean I’m right nor does it mean my suggestions are good.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there is a reason I feel overall PVP (WvW included) in this game is mediocre at best, and the ease in which some professions disengage fights is one of the reasons.

Feel free to run away, and I’ll keep laughing and shaking my head every time I see a warrior do it.

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

It says a lot about your perspective when you actually attempt to lay equivalent value on en elite skill compared to a weapon skill.

We are not asking for miracles, but you could at least be more reasonable then to compare a weapon skill to an elite skill as if everyone was just going to accept that.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c