Guild Wars 2

Note first before I say anything else that this is simply my opinion on how to make a broad fix on the current minion playstyle. I’m not looking to expand the actual playstyles available to MMs because with the current selection of minions there is really only one broad style available to us, with different specializations you can make (cleric healer, soldier, chill, etc.). I’m also going to address certain things that don’t necessarily have to happen to make balance better but imo improve the health of the gameplay. And finally while some of the concepts here could apply to other summon builds, overall this is specific towards minions.

The main themes here are removing as much passive play as possible, pushing as much strength as possible into active play forced on the player, and putting a bit more control over minions in their hands (we are supposed to be minion masters afterall, not just minion summoners).

Again, this is just my opinion, feedback is welcome.

I. Putting the Master back in Minion Master
As things are right now, minions take a lot of action on their own. They remember aggro they acquired previous to any overwrites that may have happened (say you swap targets, when one is dead they walk right back to the other one), they attack people who attack you and themselves, and you actually get somewhat limited choices over how to control them once they are out besides telling them who to attack.

Now I don’t want to step on the toes of Ranger too much, however there are some QoL things that involve AI. Also I realize this could be difficult to do because minions currently inherit nearly all their AI from mobs, which would need changing. But wishful thinking.

A. Minions no longer attack targets unless you “tell” them to – this means they won’t target anything that you are not currently targeting. They won’t attack to defend you, they won’t attack to defend themselves, they won’t remember aggro from previous targets, they will simply kill the thing that you have told them to and then return to you.

This removes a lot of issues where they end up just randomly wandering around or hitting that one thing you attacked 30 minutes ago, and removes the ability of bad players to rely on the minions to auto defend them even when they are still keyboard turning their character to find the person behind them.

B. Desummon button – simply put, a button that appears only when minions are summoned. Pressing it immediately de-summons all minions, putting them on CD. This would not proc Death Nova, this doesn’t give you the LF from their death, it doesn’t directly give you any benefit, it simply takes the minions off the map. This is especially needed because pathing seems like it will always be an issue, and as it is now minions too easily lose their aggro because you jumped over a log and they couldn’t follow. So you desummon them, gaining no direct benefit, and then can resummon them when you get to the next capture point, free of worrying about AI bugs.

You gave them life, you maintain their existence, you should be able to reverse that gift.

C. Optional Return button – I say optional because I have mixed feelings and think this starts to step on the toes of Ranger. However I also see it as a potentially necessary feature due to the way PvE depends on one-shot mechanics that minions refuse to move out of. Like above, its a button that only appears when minions are summoned. It drops all their aggro completely and forces them to run at max speed directly to you (flesh wurm obviously does nothing, poor guy). Gives you a slight bit of control over their movement, and would slightly improve their survivability in some situations but without passive increases anywhere, you have to notice the danger and make them avoid it.

Again, putting master back in minion master.

II. Changing Passive Traits to Active
Leading from above, I think minions are a bit too strong with just their passive actions of hitting an enemy. I dislike the existence of traits that solely buff the strength of their auto attacks and not so much their actives. It doesn’t promote active play like the game should.

A. Change to Training of the Master – no longer grants a flat 25% damage buff, instead grants improvements to minions. Melee minions now cleave (shouldn’t affect PvP much, but helps in PvE where we desperately need cleave), and minion active abilities have improved functionality.

For example (obviously balance is debateable):
Putrid Explosion (Bone Minions) – Deals 30% more damage (basically what it is now, because this skill is fine as is)
Taste of Death (Blood Fiend) – Leaves a water field where the minion dies
Necrotic Traversal (Flesh Wurm) – increases teleport range (not sure how much) and the explosion deals direct damage
Haunt (Shadow Fiend) – siphons HP (to the minion, not master)

The main consideration here is to not end up nerfing MM directly, but shifting some of the consistent (and difficult to avoid) tanky-DPS to the actives. So the idea is shifting the damage to things with more counterplay, without strictly lowering it, and trying to support the minion’s unique style.

B. Changes to Necromantic Corruption
Same basic idea as above. Instead of having a passive buff give a buff to their actives. In this case, instead of just being damage/general functionality buffs they would have play with boons.

Possible examples:
Putrid Explosion – strips one boon
Haunt – steals a boon for the shadow fiend
Rigor Mortis – corrupts two boons (one per projectile)

So like above, the consideration is to not lower the amount of boon stripping, but make it more supporting of the minion’s style, more reliable, and with more counterplay. Just for everyone’s benefit, I’ve listed below some numbers on the trait’s current values, for comparison to what a new trait should at the very least accomplish (in reality it should most likely exceed what is currently done, due to the trait being subpar as is).

10% chance per hit (note that this does proc on their actives that deal direct damage, but this makes calculations hard and so is ignored; it also generally decreases their proc speed anyway except for flesh golem)

Blood Fiend/Bone Minion(just 1)/Flesh Wurm – one boon every ~30 seconds
Bone Fiend/Shadow Fiend – one boon every ~15 seconds
Flesh Golem – one boon every ~12 seconds

III. Changes to Base Minions/Abilities
These are changes I think should be made without traiting, just improvements to the base skills.

Necrotic Traversal – the explosion activates at the Necromancer’s location, not the Wurm’s
Haunt – reduce post-cast activation time from 2 seconds to 3/4s
Rigor Mortis – acts as an auto attack reset, so the fiend is immediately immobilized and attacks, but has a more noticeable chains animation on the minion
Putrid Explosion – the first minion to blow up is now the one closest to the target selected
Charge – cast time removed and is an instant-activate (like all other non-heal minion skills), however Flesh Golem now has a pre-Charge “enrage” animation (kind of like you’d expect a bull or something to have) that lasts 3/4s
Blood Fiend – passive healing has added scaling (0.05)

I think that’s all. Its a short post I know, but try to read through at least parts of it. I’d love to hear feedback, both to the original concept of giving them more counterplay, if you think I’ve achieved that goal with my ideas, and then ideas on specifics to the changes I’ve proposed. Please keep feedback civil, even if you disagree completely, and thanks for your time.

TL;DR if you need a short version – I want to give minions more counterplay by focusing their damage and utility on their active skills.

Ahh minion mancer, the ranger, a ranger could never be. I concur with putting the majority of a minion function in their active ability. I’ve seen quite a few mm in the past, but lately mm + rune of flock a.k.a tropical bird of hell and high toughness makes these guys incredibly annoying. Managable, but annoying. I think they unintentionally buffed MM when they pushed the old minor traits out in favor of a more universal set up which is good for people who didn’t use that trait line for minions, but really good for those who did.

Unfortunately all they did with the new traits was a very slight nerf to damage, but while giving MMs a pretty decent boost in survivability (2% extra LF per minion death, plus extra toughness in DS). All in all I don’t think they really changed much besides giving them a bit more defense and a bit less offense.

The problem right now is minions are a bit too much of a “stat check”, where you either have a build that can deal with them, or don’t. And only if you have one of those builds are you basically able to do anything, or their passive damage/CC/healing is just too much.

My lazy thoughts;
Training of the Master:
Your minions deal extra damage. Their active abilities deal more damage.
Damage increase: 15%
Ability damage increase: 25%
(they stack)

Necromantic Corruption:
Your minions’ special abilities convert boons into conditions.
1 Boon converted
4sec CD (So Rigor Mortis and Charge only flip one boon)

The first one moves the emphasis of their damage more to their actives. The second makes Necromantic Corruption a not-rubbish trait.

I don’t know how I feel about mega lists of how a trait affects different abilities differently. The most recent examples, I think, are the engi traits for gadgets and turrets- Speaking of which, I think a boon-on-minion-death trait could be pretty cool.

Also, I don’t know if I’ve said it here before, but Minion abilities which don’t summon a minion but instead affect your other minions, would be cool. A bit like the Ranger shouts.

I like alot of the idea 1.A.

All ideas are excellent and would love to see those when I play with my Necromancer.

Instead of more sentient minions that can react on their own, a puppet minion is much better in my opinion, that attacks on “command” and stops when target is dead.
Much more active style indeed.

No more unresponsive minions or passive tanky MMs

I’d give this a vote For if it were available.

Sarrs.4831:

I don’t know how I feel about mega lists of how a trait affects different abilities differently. The most recent examples, I think, are the engi traits for gadgets and turrets- Speaking of which, I think a boon-on-minion-death trait could be pretty cool.

It does bring up an issue of needing to learn a list of weird things, however with ANet getting a lot better with tooltips, they’d simply add the new functions onto the tooltips. So while you couldn’t see it right on the trait itself, it would be pretty easy to find out in game.

The reason I don’t go for straight damage increase is because even if its just on their actives, not all actives are about damage (in fact only one is fully damage based, with one more, Charge, being kind of hybrid). So functionality changes give you improved abilities such that if you would have the minion already, the new functionality would still fit. Also with the cleave it fixes a massive issue with current minions.

Sarrs.4831:

Also, I don’t know if I’ve said it here before, but Minion abilities which don’t summon a minion but instead affect your other minions, would be cool. A bit like the Ranger shouts.

Won’t happen, honestly. ANet have basically said this, they don’t want abilities which only affect other abilities. Ranger shouts are fine because you will always have a pet (just like only-Deathshroud skills would be fine, because while deathshroud is a specific skill, you always have it).

first of all i don’t think minions need more counterplay, they are already realy realy bad ^^ but i agree that the passive playstyle is not healthy for pvp and would welcome a more active mm (maybe it owuld even become palyable then).

Yes, you’d have to do things so that they didn’t just end up with abilities that have too much counterplay for their power level, so the active abilities would have to be stronger than they are now (when traited), to balance that out.

As the #1 MM fanatic Bhawb has a point.

I don’t like how the OP is merely a disguised: ‘’NERF THE MM PLEASE!’’
You want to give a negligible advantage for players playing the MM actively in an exchange for increasing the skill required to play it by a considerable margin.

I still don’t think MM is such a big deal. Tab-targeting already favours the player, and really if targeting is the issue then stealth-spam Thieves are a much bigger issue with their HS or C&D.

And as far as the damage goes, meh.
Ok if a single attack attacks you, but if you’re MM and there’s a group fight, better have a second set of minions stowed somewhere so they can get blown up in the AE, too.

There is already counter play its called D/D Ele.

Moa them, just moa

Carighan.6758:

I still don’t think MM is such a big deal. Tab-targeting already favours the player, and really if targeting is the issue then stealth-spam Thieves are a much bigger issue with their HS or C&D.

Except that there are MM builds that will never die with minions up. The builds that wreck MMs are ones that can destroy the minions before you take any damage from them, while dealing damage to the MM. If you are in a build that has to ignore the minions because you can’t kill them, you’ve already lost.

Carighan.6758:

And as far as the damage goes, meh.
Ok if a single attack attacks you, but if you’re MM and there’s a group fight, better have a second set of minions stowed somewhere so they can get blown up in the AE, too.

Having better actives on the minions would make their teamfighting better because you’d be able to summon them, use their utility, and then when they die right after it isn’t a big deal because a lot of their usefulness is in their actives anyway.

Chaos.2531:

I don’t like how the OP is merely a disguised: ‘’NERF THE MM PLEASE!’’
You want to give a negligible advantage for players playing the MM actively in an exchange for increasing the skill required to play it by a considerable margin.

Note that I didn’t nerf a single minion’s base stats or abilities (if anything they were buffed). All I proposed was they change TotM/NC from a very passive DPS increase to something that has more impact with their actives. Obviously you’d balance it such that if you landed every single ability well, you’d be even stronger than you are now (because you shouldn’t be landing them).

The changes to AI only nerf them if you aren’t doing anything yourself. If you’re just attacking like normal this will just increase their responsiveness and control.

I’m not someone that hates minions and wants to nerf them; quite the opposite. But for minions to get the buffs they deserve there will be nerfs to accompany those buffs. The build isn’t strictly weak, but it needs the focus of its power shifted.

Bhawb.7408:

Note that I didn’t nerf a single minion’s base stats or abilities (if anything they were buffed). All I proposed was they change TotM/NC from a very passive DPS increase to something that has more impact with their actives. Obviously you’d balance it such that if you landed every single ability well, you’d be even stronger than you are now (because you shouldn’t be landing them).

But you are not balancing it since you are offering a very small compensation.

Bhawb.7408:

The changes to AI only nerf them if you aren’t doing anything yourself. If you’re just attacking like normal this will just increase their responsiveness and control.

I am gonna fix it for you: The changes to AI only nerf them if you aren’t doing everything by yourself.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m not someone that hates minions and wants to nerf them; quite the opposite. But for minions to get the buffs they deserve there will be nerfs to accompany those buffs. The build isn’t strictly weak, but it needs the focus of its power shifted.

This topic is not about buffing necromancers. Period.
You want them to be nerfed, and then offer a compensation for said nerf.

Chaos.2531:

But you are not balancing it since you are offering a very small compensation.

In none of my changes to actual traits did I list full changes, only ideas to show what I mean. So you can’t say whether they are nerfs, buffs, balanced, or absolutely ridiculous; except for the changes to AI/desummon button everything I listed were either flat buffs or simply concepts.

Chaos.2531:

I am gonna fix it for you: The changes to AI only nerf them if you aren’t doing everything by yourself.

If you aren’t doing anything you shouldn’t have any damage output, period. With minions as they are now you a lot of effectiveness out of simply summoning them. You don’t even need to target someone to have them attack, and that’s stupid. You should be playing your build, not the game.

Chaos.2531:

This topic is not about buffing necromancers. Period.
You want them to be nerfed, and then offer a compensation for said nerf.

This is arguing semantics, then attacking me (in an absolutely ridiculous way) because you don’t like my ideas. If you don’t like them, fine, but don’t pretend its because I have something against minions.

I certainely can find myself with II and III, but I rubs me the wrong way. I beleive you are trying to take the advantages of turrets and pets and combine them into minions. It devalues the other 2 skill types a bit in my opinon.

Tim.6450:

I beleive you are trying to take the advantages of turrets and pets and combine them into minions. It devalues the other 2 skill types a bit in my opinon.

I’m assuming you are referencing the parts of I that don’t deal with AI (the two buttons)? That’s basically exactly my worry about it. Desummon is to me more an issue of how quickly minions get bugged due to pathing when you are moving around, and this would help fix that. If they actually had a solid AI system that always worked properly then I’d throw the idea right out the window.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m assuming you are referencing the parts of I that don’t deal with AI (the two buttons)? That’s basically exactly my worry about it. Desummon is to me more an issue of how quickly minions get bugged due to pathing when you are moving around, and this would help fix that. If they actually had a solid AI system that always worked properly then I’d throw the idea right out the window.

I am referring to all three. The desummon button is like picking up a turret without the cooldown reduction but without time loss. The return button is a ranger replica. The idle base state is like the guard/avoid combat button (but without the button) in my opinion.

From a lore perspective, I would guess of lot of that makes sense. They are summoned and have their wills bound. They wouldn’t do anything until commanded. Rangers pet’s have actual behavior/loyalty towards their master and thus will defend them if allowed. The minions will sit and watch their master die unless “forced” to attack.

For the banish minion button would it be like exploding a turret after using its skill or would it be hovering above the skill bar. Would it banish all with one click or have a button for each? I would hate to kill my worm for no reason. But being able to reset its cooldown without being jerked in a direction may be useful in some situations.

Tim.6450:

The idle base state is like the guard/avoid combat button (but without the button) in my opinion.

The idle base state is how they work already (they just run back to you after their aggro has been carried out), but now that they don’t aggro except on your command, they’ll come back to a resting state whenever you haven’t given them aggro. So you can’t “force” them to come back to you, you can simply have them kill one target and then not have them running off to attack something that poked them 20 minutes ago.

The rest I agree that it might be stepping on toes, unfortunately I think it might be needed to a degree if they are going to leave AI as is.

Damaein.6413:

For the banish minion button would it be like exploding a turret after using its skill or would it be hovering above the skill bar. Would it banish all with one click or have a button for each? I would hate to kill my worm for no reason. But being able to reset its cooldown without being jerked in a direction may be useful in some situations.

It is one button that banishes all of your minions with absolutely no effect except that they are gone and on CD (no LF gain, no Death Nova, no skill-effects).