Guild Wars 2

I understand concept of hardcounters and all but either this game needs to live it to 100% (which is not the case with engis, warriors and co.) or change the way classes interact that so we don’t have some classes that have no hardcounters and then classes that stand 0 chance vs other.

Seeing as Anet won’t introduce any hardcounters to engis (please don’t bring up necro, engis can still beat them), warriors and co., i think it is time that thieves also have chance even if slight vs guardians. At the moment there only 2 ways thief stands any chance vs guardian:
- guardian is afk and doesn’t fight at all
- thief has help from 2 other players

You would say but hey pvp is not about 1v1, surely it is not and it would be fine if matches wouldn’t consist of 3-5 guardians (rest engis _)….. As thief at that point you might as well just sit afk at spawn or hope that enemy afk. I find it highly discouraging.

I suggest following changes (not necessary together):
Note: all this suggestions are only for pvp, weither or not they should be applied for the rest of the game is different topic.
thief changes:
- bountiful theft should prioritize stability and aegis, right now it completely ignores aegis
- every 3rd attack on thief AA chain should go through the block/invul

guard changes:
- contemplation of purity should convert 3 conditions only, not unlimited
- purging flames CD increased by 5 sec
- fiery wrath should be moved to master tier at least
- focused mind should be moved to more damage oriented trait lane
- smite conditions needs it’s CD increased by 5-10 sec
- very arguable: virtrues should only grant teammates buffs if guardian traited for (similar to venom share)

general changes:
- burning dmg/scaling needs to be nerfed in pvp: yes it will affect other classes but i honestly think that burning IS too strong of condition atm in pvp and too easily applied… no matter what class i play atm, pretty much all my deathes come from 20+k burning, 15k+ bleeding and torment in that order… guradians and engis are especially at fault since they apply burning on pretty much any attack
- max amount of might obtainable in pvp should be reduced to 10 (for any class), the duration reduced by 20-30% in pvp
- intelligence sigil should have crit chance reduced to 50% (arguable) instead of 100%
- retal duration needs to be reduced by 50% in pvp
- celestial amulet needs a nerf across all stats in pvp, atm it is too build and meta defining and overshadows other amulets in effectivness (there is enough threads about it)

Cynz.9437:

You would say but hey pvp is not about 1v1, surely it is not and it would be fine if matches wouldn’t consist of 3-5 guardians (rest engis _)….. As thief at that point you might as well just sit afk at spawn or hope that enemy afk. I find it highly discouraging.

To be honest, there are usually more rangers than any other prof. in a match. But I mostly see ranger zerkbows and thief spinning machines

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

I guess you are talking about dps medi guards here.

About thief changes:

Afaik bountiful theft prioritizes stability (not sure if it only does when you use sleight of hand). Aegis is a block, steal is not unblockable and therefore wont work.

An auto attack going through blocks? No thanks.

Contemplation of purity is one of the only active condi cleanse a dps guard has. Dps thieves usually dont even use more than 3 condis so i dont understand your complaints at all.

Same for purging flames, why would you care about them. Just dont stand in the burning..

If you look at the burn uptime a nornal medi guard has this trait is quite weak and most of the time negligible. I understand it though when its a 2v2 agaibst the guard and a longbow war but as a thief you shouldnt be stabding in the fire field anyway.

Focused mind is in the meditation trait line. Why would you put it somewhere else.

Smite condition is strong but if you nerf it it will make medi guards a lot more worse. After all its one of their main healing/cleansing sources.

About burning:

I agree that burning is very strong but all of the classes except thief have enough access to it so imo it is balanced. I just feel like that burning shouldnt be all passive which it is in some cases atm.

Sorry but i dont agree with your complaints at all and i dont even main a guard. Just because a thief cant beat a zerker warrior spec but all other zerker specs doesn’t mean that medi guard is op…

Cynz.9437:

I understand concept of hardcounters and all but either this game needs to live it to 100% (which is not the case with engis, warriors and co.) or change the way classes interact that so we don’t have some classes that have no hardcounters and then classes that stand 0 chance vs other.

Seeing as Anet won’t introduce any hardcounters to engis (please don’t bring up necro, engis can still beat them), warriors and co., i think it is time that thieves also have chance even if slight vs guardians. At the moment there only 2 ways thief stands any chance vs guardian:
- guardian is afk and doesn’t fight at all
- thief has help from 2 other players

You would say but hey pvp is not about 1v1, surely it is not and it would be fine if matches wouldn’t consist of 3-5 guardians (rest engis _)….. As thief at that point you might as well just sit afk at spawn or hope that enemy afk. I find it highly discouraging.

I suggest following changes (not necessary together):
Note: all this suggestions are only for pvp.
thief changes:
- bountiful theft should prioritize stability and aegis, right now it completely ignores aegis
- every 3rd attack on thief AA chain should go through the block/invul

guard changes:

• contemplation of purity should convert 3 conditions only, not unlimited*
• purging flames CD increased by 5 sec*
• fiery wrath should be moved to master tier at least*
• focused mind should be moved to more damage oriented trait lane*
• smite conditions needs it’s CD increased by 5-10 sec*

general changes:
- burning dmg/scaling needs to be nerfed in pvp: yes it will affect other classes but i honestly think that burning IS too strong of condition atm in pvp and too easily applied… no matter what class i play atm, pretty much all my deathes come from 20+k burning, 15k+ bleeding and torment in that order… guradians and engis are especially at fault since they apply burning on pretty much any attack
- max amount of might obtainable in pvp should be reduced to 10 (for any class), the duration reduced by 20-30% in pvp
- intelligence sigil should have crit chance reduced to 50% (arguable) instead of 100%
- retal duration needs to be reduced by 50% in pvp
- celestial amulet needs a nerf across all stats in pvp, atm it is too build and meta defining and overshadows other amulets in effectivness (there is enough threads about it)

3/10 The guard changes really gave you away. Funny how improving functionality of Merciful Intervention, and making renewed focus a meditation made guardian OP, even though it still loses out to the same thing it did before the new patch. That extra 2k heal doe.

Wyrden.4713:

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

not true, mesmer vs thief is who got bit more luck and who caught whom off guard, mesmer while doesn’t ahve 100% chance to kill thief still has very good chance to do so

thief vs guard is impossible

Cynz.9437:

Wyrden.4713:

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

not true, mesmer vs thief is who got bit more luck and who caught whom off guard, mesmer while doesn’t ahve 100% chance to kill thief still has very good chance to do so

thief vs guard is impossible

saw countless thiefs outplaying guards, thief can win against guards still

same stuff~

It’s near impossible…
(jekkt) and to not standing in the fire? What does thief do then.. wait until 2 sec later its up again? We are squishy melee fighters. It’s just never going to work.

Conditions are just too passive. I was literally just walking by a fight, in the last match i played, and got 3 conditions on me while i was in stealth.

Its just this condition era we’re in, mixed with thief having very little condition removal, and low hp/toughness.
oh and not many healing opportunities.
oh and terrible trait lines that dont match weapon sets.
oh and good amount of bad utilities.
oh and many bugs with stealth and shadow steps..

Jekkt.6045:

I guess you are talking about dps medi guards here.

About thief changes:

Afaik bountiful theft prioritizes stability (not sure if it only does when you use sleight of hand). Aegis is a block, steal is not unblockable and therefore wont work.

An auto attack going through blocks? No thanks.

Contemplation of purity is one of the only active condi cleanse a dps guard has. Dps thieves usually dont even use more than 3 condis so i dont understand your complaints at all.

Same for purging flames, why would you care about them. Just dont stand in the burning..

If you look at the burn uptime a nornal medi guard has this trait is quite weak and most of the time negligible. I understand it though when its a 2v2 agaibst the guard and a longbow war but as a thief you shouldnt be stabding in the fire field anyway.

Focused mind is in the meditation trait line. Why would you put it somewhere else.

Smite condition is strong but if you nerf it it will make medi guards a lot more worse. After all its one of their main healing/cleansing sources.

About burning:

I agree that burning is very strong but all of the classes except thief have enough access to it so imo it is balanced. I just feel like that burning shouldnt be all passive which it is in some cases atm.

Sorry but i dont agree with your complaints at all and i dont even main a guard. Just because a thief cant beat a zerker warrior spec but all other zerker specs doesn’t mean that medi guard is op…

steal atm doesn’t prioritize stab, at least since patch

yes, aegis blocks steal hence why i made a suggestion that you should be able to steal aegis

i didn’t say every AA but 3rd attack on chain, meaning thief will still have to sit there and AA till he reaches the 3rd attack on chain and it is still quite a time, at most he will land maybe 1-2 attacks

Contemplation of purity: guards have enough passive condi cleanse… so what if that is their only active condi cleanse, it is not like i am asking to remove it. As far as thief goes, yes most thief have at most 3 condis, but if you add team in the picture they will have access to more condis via either stolen abilities or fields/auras.

Just not stand in it is hard to apply when you cosider we have only 1 game mode which is about standing on point not to mention that guards have enough ways to keep someone in place or bring purging flames to enemy target.

“If you look at the burn uptime a nornal medi guard has this trait is quite weak and most of the time negligible” based on what? Numbers?

Focused mind: why should defensive tree enhance offensive ability by so much (almost perma 20% crit chance while training defensive is not a joke).

Smite condition: such argument didn’t stop anet from massive nerfs to other classes.

Burning: i would indeed agree it is balanced if application came at high price.

I never claimed medi guard was OP, my issue is how absolutely hopeless it is for thief to even try to attack a guardian which once again wouldn’t be issue if matches didn’t consist of 3-5 guardians. Players should be rewarded for good play and not for rolling absolute hardcounter and get carried by the build rather than by skill.

Wyrden.4713:

Cynz.9437:

Wyrden.4713:

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

not true, mesmer vs thief is who got bit more luck and who caught whom off guard, mesmer while doesn’t ahve 100% chance to kill thief still has very good chance to do so

thief vs guard is impossible

saw countless thiefs outplaying guards, thief can win against guards still

same stuff~

if guard died to a thief he should reconsider his class/build choices and certanly get more practice and not afk in fight

Cynz.9437:

Jekkt.6045:

-snip-

steal atm doesn’t prioritize stab, at least since patch

yes, aegis blocks steal hence why i made a suggestion that you should be able to steal aegis

i didn’t say every AA but 3rd attack on chain, meaning thief will still have to sit there and AA till he reaches the 3rd attack on chain and it is still quite a time, at most he will land maybe 1-2 attacks

Contemplation of purity: guards have enough passive condi cleanse… so what if that is their only active condi cleanse, it is not like i am asking to remove it. As far as thief goes, yes most thief have at most 3 condis, but if you add team in the picture they will have access to more condis via either stolen abilities or fields/auras.

Just not stand in it is hard to apply when you cosider we have only 1 game mode which is about standing on point not to mention that guards have enough ways to ->>>>>keep someone in place<<<<<<— or bring purging flames to enemy target.

“If you look at the burn uptime a nornal medi guard has this trait is quite weak and most of the time negligible” based on what? Numbers?

Focused mind: why should defensive tree enhance offensive ability by so much (almost perma 20% crit chance while training defensive is not a joke).

Smite condition: such argument didn’t stop anet from massive nerfs to other classes.

Burning: i would indeed agree it is balanced if application came at high price.

I never claimed medi guard was OP, my issue is how absolutely hopeless it is for thief to even try to attack a guardian which once again wouldn’t be issue if matches didn’t consist of 3-5 guardians. Players should be rewarded for good play and not for rolling absolute hardcounter and get carried by the build rather than by skill.

Wyrden.4713:

Cynz.9437:

Wyrden.4713:

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

not true, mesmer vs thief is who got bit more luck and who caught whom off guard, mesmer while doesn’t ahve 100% chance to kill thief still has very good chance to do so

thief vs guard is impossible

saw countless thiefs outplaying guards, thief can win against guards still

same stuff~

if guard died to a thief he should reconsider his class/build choices and certanly get more practice and not afk in fight

Passive condi removal…..so based on the knowledge you gave me, you have never played a medi guard or guardian. What the hell passive condi removal are you talking about? Sigent of Resolve? 40s Spike heal that removes a condi every 10s when not used also not including the fact you traded shelter for it, and Purity(remove 1 condi every 10s) which takes the slot for for either meditaton cooldowns, or focused mind? PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THAT PASSIVE CONDI REMOVAL IS that i’ve been missing over 5k hours of Guardian Play.

Yes…..Focused mind is perma fury because 4s of fury per meditation use is perma fury. Smite Condition CD 16-20s, Judges Intervention 36-kitten CD, CoP 48-60s RF 72-90s CD

Purging Flames requires you to be in melee range if you want to hit people with it in a AoE. The only way to bring put Purging Flames on anyone at range grater than melee would be to trait 2 points into virtues of ground targeting consecrations. Guardian’s keeping foes in place? Getting ringed by hammer 5, and hammer 3 slow projectile immoblize?

Also heres a thing to enlighten you about guardian burning, guardian has to strike 5 times in order to apply 1s of burn or use the active which hovers around 30s CD for 4s for you and your allies, and to gain consistent burning you need torch and or defender’s flame(Inflict 1s of burn per block) with shelter or focus.

if a thief cant win on 1 vs 1 facing a guardian, dunno how he could win over other classes, guardians are very easy to read and might be the easiest class to kill imo.

nickxnickx.5401:

It’s near impossible…
(jekkt) and to not standing in the fire? What does thief do then.. wait until 2 sec later its up again? We are squishy melee fighters. It’s just never going to work.

Conditions are just too passive. I was literally just walking by a fight, in the last match i played, and got 3 conditions on me while i was in stealth.

Its just this condition era we’re in, mixed with thief having very little condition removal, and low hp/toughness.
oh and not many healing opportunities.
oh and terrible trait lines that dont match weapon sets.
oh and good amount of bad utilities.
oh and many bugs with stealth and shadow steps..

You really cant be serius about what you wrote…
Why would you stand on a point at all as a thief… Your job is to spike enemies down and not holding a point… In order to do that you use your shortbow and shadowsteps.

Most fire fields have more than 2 sec cd fyi and as a thief you can kite a guard because he has only 1 gap closer on a long cooldown and 1 leap (assuming gs + medi).

Withdraw is one of the best heals in the game. Traitlines synergize very well with weaponsets… Utils are very good except traps and venoms. I dont know about any stealth bugs. Every class has problems with teleports.

Please dont write such stuff on the forums if its not true. Thief was my main for over a year and i have well over 2000 hours on him. I think i know what im talking about.

Wyrden.4713:

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

Therefore, ladies and gentleman, Cynz post is wrong.

Logic at it’s finest.

(Not sure where the mesmers came from in the discussion, but they did!)

Cynz.9437:

I understand concept of hardcounters and all but either this game needs to live it to 100% (which is not the case with engis, warriors and co.) or change the way classes interact that so we don’t have some classes that have no hardcounters and then classes that stand 0 chance vs other.

Seeing as Anet won’t introduce any hardcounters to engis (please don’t bring up necro, engis can still beat them), warriors and co., i think it is time that thieves also have chance even if slight vs guardians. At the moment there only 2 ways thief stands any chance vs guardian:
- guardian is afk and doesn’t fight at all
- thief has help from 2 other players

You would say but hey pvp is not about 1v1, surely it is not and it would be fine if matches wouldn’t consist of 3-5 guardians (rest engis _)….. As thief at that point you might as well just sit afk at spawn or hope that enemy afk. I find it highly discouraging.

I suggest following changes (not necessary together):
Note: all this suggestions are only for pvp, weither or not they should be applied for the rest of the game is different topic.
thief changes:
- bountiful theft should prioritize stability and aegis, right now it completely ignores aegis
- every 3rd attack on thief AA chain should go through the block/invul

guard changes:
- contemplation of purity should convert 3 conditions only, not unlimited
- purging flames CD increased by 5 sec
- fiery wrath should be moved to master tier at least
- focused mind should be moved to more damage oriented trait lane
- smite conditions needs it’s CD increased by 5-10 sec
- very arguable: virtrues should only grant teammates buffs if guardian traited for (similar to venom share)

general changes:
- burning dmg/scaling needs to be nerfed in pvp: yes it will affect other classes but i honestly think that burning IS too strong of condition atm in pvp and too easily applied… no matter what class i play atm, pretty much all my deathes come from 20+k burning, 15k+ bleeding and torment in that order… guradians and engis are especially at fault since they apply burning on pretty much any attack
- max amount of might obtainable in pvp should be reduced to 10 (for any class), the duration reduced by 20-30% in pvp
- intelligence sigil should have crit chance reduced to 50% (arguable) instead of 100%
- retal duration needs to be reduced by 50% in pvp
- celestial amulet needs a nerf across all stats in pvp, atm it is too build and meta defining and overshadows other amulets in effectivness (there is enough threads about it)

Ah. The dreaded 6/6/6/6/6 medi guardian with 5 utility slots that can 1v3 all day long.

I’m wondering if you’ve tried putting any time into guardian before putting time into this very well thought out post. I’m sure you’ll die to plenty of thieves who value their skill and insight into other classes, rather than just giving up and QQ for nerfs to something they simply just don’t understand.

Awkward considering that the thief has no cooldown on weapons and like to hit and hide and run at 30% to reset they THEY complain about guardian

AGGabriel.9230:

Awkward considering that the thief has no cooldown on weapons and like to hit and hide and run at 30% to reset they THEY complain about guardian

none of that is viable tactics in pvp and would usually lead to team los

Shanks.2907:

Ah. The dreaded 6/6/6/6/6 medi guardian with 5 utility slots that can 1v3 all day long.

I’m wondering if you’ve tried putting any time into guardian before putting time into this very well thought out post. I’m sure you’ll die to plenty of thieves who value their skill and insight into other classes, rather than just giving up and QQ for nerfs to something they simply just don’t understand.

please show me where i claimed that guards use all of those spells/traits in one build?

Does the Thief forum agree that victory is impossible against Guardians? Why is there no post about it?

Most necro’s won’t win against hambow either, but counters in this game exist man. Deal with it (#)-(#)

Holl.3109:

Most necro’s won’t win against hambow either, but counters in this game exist man. Deal with it (#)-(#)

if you think it is issue, make own thread about it

ShakeyStorm.7180:

Does the Thief forum agree that victory is impossible against Guardians? Why is there no post about it?

because everyone gave up long time ago, thieves are too busy hiding from another nerf bat swing and trying to compensate for the dmg that is already done

if i remember correctly, there was post on forums from Caed saying something like that even worst player can beat any thief playing as guardian (don’t take this by word, i would have to find the post for exact quote)

Skill hard-counters everything
The conquest game mode hard-counters diversity

A zerker thief in our current meta using 2/6/0/0/6 or 6/0/2/0/6 certainly will have trouble against a meditation guard – when I use my thief in WvW and get to mix my stats and throw in some sustain in my build via shadow arts I no longer have issues with guards

Skilled condi necro destroys any warrior build – IF WE FIGHT OFF POINT – The strength of Hambow is fighting on tiny circles

The conquest game mode has created these imbalances

There is no such thing as X Class defeats Y Class in all situations using any build

Are there really that many Medi Guards being used in either PvP? I can’t really say that I personally encounter than very often and generally I’m the only one in the game. Medi Guard also has a ton of risk/reward involved considering popping one thing at the wrong time or too early=death. They can generally beat many builds 1v1 but in a team fight that effectiveness drops off pretty fast.

As for bunker Guards…they aren’t supposed to die to 1 player

BurrTheKing.8571:

Are there really that many Medi Guards being used in either PvP? I can’t really say that I personally encounter than very often and generally I’m the only one in the game. Medi Guard also has a ton of risk/reward involved considering popping one thing at the wrong time or too early=death. They can generally beat many builds 1v1 but in a team fight that effectiveness drops off pretty fast.

As for bunker Guards…they aren’t supposed to die to 1 player

medi guarts cant rly do much after blowing their cds for burst, like scepter eles, and medi guards cant disengage either

barely some ppl play it in s or t que

also it has rly low sustain, the reliable immunitys are his heal and elite, and neither of em allow em to do smth while casting

Lol…1v1…0 chance…burning too strong….condition guard says hi…..passive cleansing on medi guard….lol……

Still waiting on something else than conquest which limits thief builds in pvp and guardian also has lower HP than thief and cannot disengage,lack mobility……..lol…..

Go fight a BM condition ranger, those can 1v1 ANYTHING.

Then again, Guild Wars 2 PvP isn’t built for 1v1.
As a thief, stay out of the fighting, poke around with your shortbow, find the perfect opportunity then go in; hit fast, secure the kill.

Thieves are not the best damage dealers. They are the best assassins. It’s your job to finish a target, not damage the target to be finished. Leave the damaging to your teammates.

The best thieves are patient ones and prefers a 2v1.

I love it when a thief fights my D/D ele 1v1, I’m going to win every time.
I don’t like it when a thief leaves in a middle of a decap, because I know he is going straight mid to turn the tide of a fight.
While I am stuck sitting on home point.

Just thought I throw this out there, the reason thieves have so much trouble with medi-guards is because thief doesn’t stand up to well to burst and are supposed to use evades+stealth to avoid portions of a burst and recover. The problem they have against guards stems from the fact that 2 very good meditations(Smite condition and Judge’s Intervention) are instant cast, making them hard to be evaded. Then, the weapon of choice for many medi guards, the greatsword, has a majority of its burst in self centered AoE form, thus ignoring stealth unless the thief is using pistol mainhand( as all other mainhand weapons barring Sbow require you to hit them in melee range). So this means medi guards can continue their bursting rotation regardless if the thief is in stealth or not, because much of it doesn’t rely on targeting. This is also just my personal pet peeve, but passive blocks always seem to pop up at the wrong time to eat a backstab or stop a Mug+Daze.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is an impossible matchup, but I will say the thief needs to outplay the guardian more than it might have to in other matchups.

Nova put it well but sadly, sometimes the teams are only 2v2 or you’re not working with a guild team so coordinated attacks and movements are easier said than done and a lot of the time it will diverge into 2 1v1’s or a single 2v1.

Necrotize.2974:

Just thought I throw this out there, the reason thieves have so much trouble with medi-guards is because thief doesn’t stand up to well to burst and are supposed to use evades+stealth to avoid portions of a burst and recover. The problem they have against guards stems from the fact that 2 very good meditations(Smite condition and Judge’s Intervention) are instant cast, making them hard to be evaded. Then, the weapon of choice for many medi guards, the greatsword, has a majority of its burst in self centered AoE form, thus ignoring stealth unless the thief is using pistol mainhand( as all other mainhand weapons barring Sbow require you to hit them in melee range). So this means medi guards can continue their bursting rotation regardless if the thief is in stealth or not, because much of it doesn’t rely on targeting. This is also just my personal pet peeve, but passive blocks always seem to pop up at the wrong time to eat a backstab or stop a Mug+Daze.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is an impossible matchup, but I will say the thief needs to outplay the guardian more than it might have to in other matchups.

Nova put it well but sadly, sometimes the teams are only 2v2 or you’re not working with a guild team so coordinated attacks and movements are easier said than done and a lot of the time it will diverge into 2 1v1’s or a single 2v1.

It depends on the thief spec a lot

20066 D/P eats med guards alive there is pretty much nothing the guard can do to kill that type of spec but then again, 20066 D/P is not a viable tpvp spec so some people probably wouldn’t count it as a viable “anti med guard” spec… on the other hand med guard isn’t a viable tpvp spec either so yea…

@OP:

CoP 3 conditions? LOL you realize its basically the only condi cleanse beside smite condition that a med guard has?

Have you even played a guardian before ? Like seriously your changes are 2/10 at max…

all of the proposed guard changes are absolutely horrid.

Stand The Wall.6987:

all of the proposed guard changes are absolutely horrid.

there have been plenty of “horrid” suggestion for thieves and anet implemented them anyway~

Even as someone who plays Teef more than Guard.. this is just funny.
You want your 3rd auto attack to have no counter play and then make meditations completely useless. Sure, Guard needs nerfs. But this is not the right way.
And the Virtue change.. LOL

Rofl, thief auto attack to go through block/invlun? Lol’d.

Jekkt.6045:

nickxnickx.5401:

It’s near impossible…
(jekkt) and to not standing in the fire? What does thief do then.. wait until 2 sec later its up again? We are squishy melee fighters. It’s just never going to work.

Conditions are just too passive. I was literally just walking by a fight, in the last match i played, and got 3 conditions on me while i was in stealth.

Its just this condition era we’re in, mixed with thief having very little condition removal, and low hp/toughness.
oh and not many healing opportunities.
oh and terrible trait lines that dont match weapon sets.
oh and good amount of bad utilities.
oh and many bugs with stealth and shadow steps..

You really cant be serius about what you wrote…
Why would you stand on a point at all as a thief… Your job is to spike enemies down and not holding a point… In order to do that you use your shortbow and shadowsteps.

Most fire fields have more than 2 sec cd fyi and as a thief you can kite a guard because he has only 1 gap closer on a long cooldown and 1 leap (assuming gs + medi).

Withdraw is one of the best heals in the game. Traitlines synergize very well with weaponsets… Utils are very good except traps and venoms. I dont know about any stealth bugs. Every class has problems with teleports.

Please dont write such stuff on the forums if its not true. Thief was my main for over a year and i have well over 2000 hours on him. I think i know what im talking about.

Sorry god thief king. /bow

traps and venoms. Total of 8/19 utilities. Not 1 or 2 utilities that are not so great, but a total of 8 of almost completely useless utilities.

Withdraw is nice.. +1
Hide in shadows is also nice. +1
What i meant about healing opportunities… I can’t just switch to water and heal or throw down turrets and heal to max health in just a few seconds.. We have to use timing and skill with our heals compared to other classes (which I like) I’m simply stating we are at an under vantage (Stealth and running away till you disengage from a fight doesn’t count either)

Yes you can kite a guardian with a shortbow or the cheesy P/D condition build sure, but if you’re trying to contribute to your team and cap some points, you’re going to have a bad time against a guardian.

As for condition cleansing..
Shadow Return: 50sec cd 3conditions
Signet of Agility: 30sec cd 1-5 conditions (depends on how many allies nearby)
Trait: Shadows Embrace: 1condition removed per 3 sec. (In stealth) +1
Trait: Pain Response: 30sec cd removes burning bleeding and poison when below 75% hp.
Sword #2 cures 1 condition. cost 5/12 initiative. +1
We have 3 active condition cleansing and 2 passive (may have forgotten one)
and most of us can agree pain response is pretty bad. Conditions just reapply in a matter of seconds also.

We have had bugs for the thief class since the beginning of time that haven’t been addressed. Instead they fix random ones that are…simply not used?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-random-Patch-Note-Reaction/first#post4458960

Many many many traits that need to be completely redone and updated to modern times.

You can’t deny thief is at the bottom right now in the pvp world. not 1v1’s
team play spvp/wvw

goldenwing.9654:

Even as someone who plays Teef more than Guard.. this is just funny.
You want your 3rd auto attack to have no counter play and then make meditations completely useless. Sure, Guard needs nerfs. But this is not the right way.
And the Virtue change.. LOL

agreed

x/5/30/x/x guard with sw/f gs has. . .

-blinds
-boons
-blocks
-burst
-better autoattacks

it’s an uphill battle for the thief unless they gank the guardian 2vs1.

sorrychief.2563:

x/5/30/x/x guard with sw/f gs has. . .

-blinds
-boons
-blocks
-burst
-better autoattacks

it’s an uphill battle for the thief unless they gank the guardian 2vs1.

Aside from might on block, what real access to useful boons do they have? Mediguard has no real boon access aside from virtue actives on a lengthy CD which you need at least 1 point in virtues for.

AA’s are good but I wouldn’t call them better.

Burst, they do great burst, but it’s pretty telegraphed(aside from smite condition), Whirling Wrath and Zealots defense. Shield of Wrath could be counted as burst but it’s easy to just null it by attacking it 3 times, or just moving out of the guard’s radius or just timing when the bubble will pop and dodge when right before it does.

With all that good stuff though there’s things to note about guard’s weaknesses, I will list them.

-Slow/ Mobility, without travelers runes you move really slow, and in combat mobility=you being kited easily. Sure you have JI/FB/LoF with a dual melee build but what’s going to stop that person that throws soft CC your way, or just walking out of range again?

Very Low access to soft CC – Unless you’re running hammer, guards have no way of making sure they stick to you,

Soft CC/hard CC – Unless you’re a shout guard with SYG and Indomitable courage , you’re not a stranger to stunlock. The uses between using CoP to break out of a stun with a small amount of conditions on, or using JI just to break a stun will leave you extremely vulnerable afterwards with a lengthy CD. JI -36-kitten CD, CoP 48-60s CD. Soft CC= very kitable guard enough to be a sitting duck worthy if he has no way of getting rid of it.

Same Base Health as Thief – Yes, Guardian’s and thieves share the same base health with Ele. So there’s more risk here since guard does not have any easy ways to escape from a fight going down hill, which is why there’s small 2k heals to keep them in combat. Including blocks and blinds which are all active defenses. Also the random aegis isn’t really much random, VoC passive = every 40s you gain aegis if you don’t have one, activating a VoC gives you a aegis the moment you need it but the trade off is 90s CD.

The devs don’t care about hard counters and in some cases they actively promote them as a healthy game feature.

That said the odds of a Thief ever needing to engage a DPS Guard are fairly low. There is a reason they’re rarely played on competitive teams.

Cynz.9437:

- every 3rd attack on thief AA chain should go through the block/invul

So long as every third auto attack on the guardians A A chain grants a 6 reveal.

So what’s the hardcounter to dps guard?

Lucentfir.7430:

Aside from might on block, what real access to useful boons do they have? Mediguard has no real boon access aside from virtue actives on a lengthy CD which you need at least 1 point in virtues for.

AA’s are good but I wouldn’t call them better.

Burst, they do great burst, but it’s pretty telegraphed(aside from smite condition), Whirling Wrath and Zealots defense. Shield of Wrath could be counted as burst but it’s easy to just null it by attacking it 3 times, or just moving out of the guard’s radius or just timing when the bubble will pop and dodge when right before it does.

With all that good stuff though there’s things to note about guard’s weaknesses, I will list them.

-Slow/ Mobility, without travelers runes you move really slow, and in combat mobility=you being kited easily. Sure you have JI/FB/LoF with a dual melee build but what’s going to stop that person that throws soft CC your way, or just walking out of range again?

Very Low access to soft CC – Unless you’re running hammer, guards have no way of making sure they stick to you,

Soft CC/hard CC – Unless you’re a shout guard with SYG and Indomitable courage , you’re not a stranger to stunlock. The uses between using CoP to break out of a stun with a small amount of conditions on, or using JI just to break a stun will leave you extremely vulnerable afterwards with a lengthy CD. JI -36-kitten CD, CoP 48-60s CD. Soft CC= very kitable guard enough to be a sitting duck worthy if he has no way of getting rid of it.

Same Base Health as Thief – Yes, Guardian’s and thieves share the same base health with Ele. So there’s more risk here since guard does not have any easy ways to escape from a fight going down hill, which is why there’s small 2k heals to keep them in combat. Including blocks and blinds which are all active defenses. Also the random aegis isn’t really much random, VoC passive = every 40s you gain aegis if you don’t have one, activating a VoC gives you a aegis the moment you need it but the trade off is 90s CD.

traveler runes with hydromancy sigil on swap and 20 or 30 in virtues will make up for about all of those weaknesses you described in a dps med guard. the utility of speccing into virtues also gives you some team support akin to the same aoe stab/protection/cleanse/blind/regeneration you get from a bunker but can actually do damage and kill people 1vs1.

those seconds shaved off the active virtues CD no matter how minor combined with the buff to RF really add up.

shimmerless.4560:

The devs don’t care about hard counters and in some cases they actively promote them as a healthy game feature.

That said the odds of a Thief ever needing to engage a DPS Guard are fairly low. There is a reason they’re rarely played on competitive teams.

honestly who cares what a ‘competitive’ team drafts? emulating other playstyles and strats will only take you so far. also this is GW2 we are talking about the pvp will forever be kitten and this game has no competitive scene worth mentioning like dota (which is a free game/mod being balanced by 1 person).

/flameshield on

Kite the guard like a beast, random dodge his meditations, spam cleanse and teleport to cure the passive burning. Then wait for the guard to pop all his blocks and his elite invulnerability. Quickly spike him down before one cd refreshes.

I duelled my little brother (medi guard) before the patch. He’s a clicker. The battles usually took at least 2 minutes.

Medi guard is passive.

Thats my 2c

sorrychief.2563:

honestly who cares what a ‘competitive’ team drafts? emulating other playstyles and strats will only take you so far. also this is GW2 we are talking about the pvp will forever be kitten and this game has no competitive scene worth mentioning like dota (which is a free game/mod being balanced by 1 person).

/flameshield on

I don’t disagree with you at all muffin (long time no see BTW), I’m just saying that realistically the odds of a Thief vs DPS Guard aren’t that high unless you’re like fighting over treb on Kyhlo or something.

Medi guard doesn’t hard counter thief, medi guard is just hard to take down. We the thieves, are not a special case… we don’t need straight up buffs, we need changes with over half of our kit being kitten useless!

Can I get an amen!?

NinjaEd.3946:

Medi guard doesn’t hard counter thief, medi guard is just hard to take down. We the thieves, are not a special case… we don’t need straight up buffs, we need changes with over half of our kit being kitten useless!

Can I get an amen!?

AMEN!

Sagat.3285:

guardian also has lower HP than thief

They have equal health. Technically, Guardian have more effective health due to higher Armor. However, this is relatively insignificant.

If you dodge what needs to be dodged, you can reliably beat a Guardian with oy Shortbow equipped.

hihey.1075:

If you dodge what needs to be dodged, you can reliably beat a Guardian with oy Shortbow equipped.

Which will take at least about 3min or so, which in a spvp situation means the guard can hold the point or neutralise it which you can not and from a team perspective this means the guardian wins.

On top of that guardian AoE boons and AoE burning only get better with more people around.

And do not get me started on aegis and aoe retaliation…

And if the guardian is not braindead and knows how to use LoS and “outranges” you in a duel situation you will never kill him.

sorrychief.2563:

traveler runes with hydromancy sigil on swap and 20 or 30 in virtues will make up for about all of those weaknesses you described in a dps med guard. the utility of speccing into virtues also gives you some team support akin to the same aoe stab/protection/cleanse/blind/regeneration you get from a bunker but can actually do damage and kill people 1vs1.

those seconds shaved off the active virtues CD no matter how minor combined with the buff to RF really add up.

Traveler runes effectively cripple a medi guard’s dps output. Better off using runes of the pack for a ~50% uptime on swiftness/fury along with 175 power/125 precision.

If you were to add traveler runes and 6 into virtues, the sustained dps/burst wouldn’t be nearly as much of a threat, and easier to 1v1 against. You’d have to drop fiery wrath (potential 300 power) and run a 0/1/6/1/6 build to get the blind on VoJ and survivability with vigor.

Bazzoong.7145:

hihey.1075:

If you dodge what needs to be dodged, you can reliably beat a Guardian with oy Shortbow equipped.

Which will take at least about 3min or so, which in a spvp situation means the guard can hold the point or neutralise it which you can not and from a team perspective this means the guardian wins.

On top of that guardian AoE boons and AoE burning only get better with more people around.

And do not get me started on aegis and aoe retaliation…

And if the guardian is not braindead and knows how to use LoS and “outranges” you in a duel situation you will never kill him.

But in sPvP you should never engage in a 1v1 as a thief, unless against a mesmer or a weaker thief.
I was talking merely from a dueling PoV.
A mediguard is almost useless in tpvp anyway. They become good only when the thief in the other team stubbornly tries to 1v1 them and end up using all their utilities to stay alive or, even worse, dead.

Mediguard as good burst, but the Cd of this burst is too high to make it reliable. Plus, in team fights they melt really fast if focused and have a very hard time disengaging.

Believe me, I know that admitting you are “useless” against a certain spec hurts your ego, but in no way this means the game is not balanced.

Also, from a thief PoV, I would rather complain about celestial classes and turret engis. Those are indeed pure cancer

Cynz.9437:

thief changes:
- bountiful theft should prioritize stability and aegis, right now it completely ignores aegis
- every 3rd attack on thief AA chain should go through the block/invul

guard changes:
- contemplation of purity should convert 3 conditions only, not unlimited
- purging flames CD increased by 5 sec
- fiery wrath should be moved to master tier at least
- focused mind should be moved to more damage oriented trait lane
- smite conditions needs it’s CD increased by 5-10 sec
- very arguable: virtrues should only grant teammates buffs if guardian traited for (similar to venom share)

Your proposed changes are a joke. Please don’t talk as if you know guardian enough to be able to discuss balancing for it, because you clearly know very little.

Zaix.2480:

So what’s the hardcounter to dps guard?

Virtually anything that can kite and/or sustain burst. It’s really not hard to kill a medi guard; just play something other than a glass cannon.

Wyrden.4713:

Cynz.9437:

Wyrden.4713:

thif counters mesmer worse than guard counters thief…

not true, mesmer vs thief is who got bit more luck and who caught whom off guard, mesmer while doesn’t ahve 100% chance to kill thief still has very good chance to do so

thief vs guard is impossible

saw countless thiefs outplaying guards, thief can win against guards still

same stuff~

A thief should beat a bunker guard
A med guard should beat a thief

As a medi guard (before and after patch), I don’t have an issue with most thieves. On average, I’d say I can kill about 90-95% of thieves with little difficulty. There is a pattern with the ones that give me a tough time or even kill me. They don’t stay close to me. They shadow step in, do some burst and and back out. Then they do it again. If I don’t get good timing on my burst in those situations, the thief will beat me. However, most thieves I see just run up to me and expect me to drop instantly. If you stick close to me, you’re gonna have a bad time. Kiting is one of the major weaknesses of a mediguard.

Btw, the “guard changes” you are suggesting are not just a nerf, they completely butcher all damage builds for guard. Basically you are trying to make us bunker only.

guard changes:
- contemplation of purity should convert 3 conditions only, not unlimited
- purging flames CD increased by 5 sec
- fiery wrath should be moved to master tier at least
- focused mind should be moved to more damage oriented trait lane
- smite conditions needs it’s CD increased by 5-10 sec
- very arguable: virtrues should only grant teammates buffs if guardian traited for (similar to venom share)

The change you suggested to contemplation of purity would make us melt to a necro or engi in seconds.

Purging flames I don’t often use it as a medi guard but I don’t see the point of increasing the cooldown. It does what its supposed to do.

If you moved fiery wrath up a tier, my damage would go bye bye and I wouldn’t have a chance against condi/bunkers at all. I have to spec full zerker with good rune choice to get enough damage as it is to put pressure on most builds. This essentially would completely cripple all damage the guard has.

Increasing smite conditions by 5-10 seconds? Really? Its the only low cooldown skill we have as a mediguard. This would further weaken us to condtion builds and SEVERELY nerf our sustain.

Virtues already have to be traited for to grant boons to allies. Sure it may only be 5 points in but the duration of the boons is not that long. If you took this away, The mediguard would be a complete hindrance in teamfights instead of just weak in teamfights.

What counters a mediguard? Pretty much anything that can kite well or apply a lot of soft/hard CC. So I’d say engi.