Guild Wars 2

Greetings Anet and everyone,

As the topic suggests this is about backstab. This skill hits extremely hard, even with 2100 toughness and nearly 3400 armor. I observed that even with that much defense backstab still hits for around 4.7k health, which is nearly 50% of base health of guardian, elementalist and thief.

Out of curiosity I tested against the same thief but this time my character was using zerker gear. I’m not too sure the numbers exactly but I think it hit for around 7-8k health. Is this balanced?

For a skill that is:

1. Nearly instant attack
2. With no cooldown
3. That you can not see coming
4. Missing or having the attack blocked does not debuff the thief with reveal

Its damage is extraordinarily high. Should a near instant skill that has no direct counter play hit for so hard?

From my perspective this is adverse to what Anet has said about combat. Which is they want the player to be animation observant instead of staring at casting bars. Unfortunately, its hard to apply that idea against a near instant attack that you can not see coming.

Aha. I see you went and made your own thief-oriented thread. Good for you. The best I can do on my Elementalist, which I mentioned earlier, is to put up my shocking aura while I have protection on, endure the hit so they get revealed, and continue to attack. I know Auras don’t last long, but I have access to lots of protection, so that helps. But I know not every class does.

Most thieves gear offensively. So if you can manage to catch them, they can be killed quickly. I know it’s tough to hit them. haha.

Currently, I’m running a Cleric set with tons of boon duration. It’s been working pretty well against thieves. I have protection up constantly to remove some of the damage, constant vigor so I can dodge plenty, and tons of regeneration so I can heal the damage that does get through. The armor isn’t much (about 2600) but every little helps, I suppose. Lastly, with food and might, I can get about 3,500 attack. So the attacks that do get through will hurt.

As it stands, a thief that has the means and the will to not get caught can at any moment stealth and run away. Until something is done to it, if ever, we’re just going to have to live with that. But do try Cleric gear, if you haven’t already. I think it’s pretty good. I guess that also depends on what profession you are.

Lol, backstab is fine as it is. What really needs looking at is S/P and Dire P/P thieves.

Keira Ferland.5619:

Lol, backstab is fine as it is. What really needs looking at is S/P and Dire P/P thieves.

So its fine that a attack with no counter play hits a player with 2100 toughness for 4.7k?

Aza.2105:

Keira Ferland.5619:

Lol, backstab is fine as it is. What really needs looking at is S/P and Dire P/P thieves.

So its fine that a attack with no counter play hits a player with 2100 toughness for 4.7k?

Yes, it is.
Learn to play issue.

hihey.1075:

Aza.2105:

Keira Ferland.5619:

Lol, backstab is fine as it is. What really needs looking at is S/P and Dire P/P thieves.

So its fine that a attack with no counter play hits a player with 2100 toughness for 4.7k?

Yes, it is.
Learn to play issue.

I do not mind people being in disagreement. But at the very least you can constructively illustrate what you feel the “learn to play” issue is.

Aza.2105:

hihey.1075:

Aza.2105:

Keira Ferland.5619:

Lol, backstab is fine as it is. What really needs looking at is S/P and Dire P/P thieves.

So its fine that a attack with no counter play hits a player with 2100 toughness for 4.7k?

Yes, it is.
Learn to play issue.

I do not mind people being in disagreement. But at the very least you can constructively illustrate what you feel the “learn to play” issue is.

It’s learn to play. Nothing more, nothing less.
I thought this too. Then I rolled a thief and fought good players.
Then I started using other classes and rofl stomp backstab thieves with ease.

Players shouldn’t expect to stack a ton of toughness to become invincible. Bunkers are problematic enough as they are (to the point that they were banned in a recent 2v2 tournament along with PU mesmers). The irony with these type of complaint threads is all the passive-gameplay that gets hated on and toughness stat is about as passive as it can get.

I do have a lot of problems with thieves as an ele. Backstabs will crit you for over half your health regardless of pretty much any build you run, and there’s very little counterplay, because any thief worth any attention will wait until he can open in stealth while you are either distracted or don’t know he’s there, and thus have no chance of an sort of retaliation.
Sure, there’s plenty you can do once you know he’s there (not that it will matter too much unless you’re D/D and can zoom off to save yourself from the spam), but the fact of the matter is that he’d have to be stupid to attack while you can focus on him.

Whether this is because Anet wants hard counters, or because they didn’t realize that being able to hit for 9k damage in stealth effectively hard counters any squishy, is up for debate.

roamzero.9486:

Players shouldn’t expect to stack a ton of toughness to become invincible. Bunkers are problematic enough as they are (to the point that they were banned in a recent 2v2 tournament along with PU mesmers). The irony with these type of complaint threads is all the passive-gameplay that gets hated on and toughness stat is about as passive as it can get.

This is your interpretation of my post.

So let me understand your perspective, increasing your mitigation is considered “passive game play”?

P Fun Daddy.1208:

I do have a lot of problems with thieves as an ele. Backstabs will crit you for over half your health regardless of pretty much any build you run, and there’s very little counterplay, because any thief worth any attention will wait until he can open in stealth while you are either distracted or don’t know he’s there, and thus have no chance of an sort of retaliation.
Sure, there’s plenty you can do once you know he’s there (not that it will matter too much unless you’re D/D and can zoom off to save yourself from the spam), but the fact of the matter is that he’d have to be stupid to attack while you can focus on him.

Whether this is because Anet wants hard counters, or because they didn’t realize that being able to hit for 9k damage in stealth effectively hard counters any squishy, is up for debate.

Define squishy? Berserker staff ele? If you’re roaming with that build, then its a l2p issue. If you’re dieing in a zerg with that build, its still a l2p issue. D/D eles, before most of ANets nerfs, was the king of roaming. Extreme tankiness and mobility, plenty of condition clear, healing, as well as situational burst. Even after the nerfs, the D/D ele is still decently usable, especially against thieves. AoE damage is usually the killer of bad thieves as most kinda ignore the giant red circles.

Unless a thief runs condition damage, all their damage is in burst packets. Get past that and you’re golden. Roll a BS thief in wvw. Learn to play what you have trouble against. My mesmer had trouble against engies, so I made one and learned most of the ins and outs so that I was prepared to face one again. Every class and every spec can be fought against, some have the advantage yes, but they can be fought.

Keira Ferland.5619:

Lol, backstab is fine as it is. What really needs looking at is S/P and Dire P/P thieves.

no. the only reason s/p needs a looking at is everyone is using it now. it really isn’t as difficult to deal with as backstabs.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

I do have a lot of problems with thieves as an ele. Backstabs will crit you for over half your health regardless of pretty much any build you run, and there’s very little counterplay, because any thief worth any attention will wait until he can open in stealth while you are either distracted or don’t know he’s there, and thus have no chance of an sort of retaliation.
Sure, there’s plenty you can do once you know he’s there (not that it will matter too much unless you’re D/D and can zoom off to save yourself from the spam), but the fact of the matter is that he’d have to be stupid to attack while you can focus on him.

Whether this is because Anet wants hard counters, or because they didn’t realize that being able to hit for 9k damage in stealth effectively hard counters any squishy, is up for debate.

Did you know that it is actually quite difficult for a backstab thief to kill a D/D ele?

What I don’t under stand is stealth is a thieves defensive mechanic, it the only class that can burst from its defensive mechanic and on 4 second cool-down(revealed debuff). Every other classes defensive mechanic normally means they are losing and trying to get back in the fight. Thief’s defensive mechanic is the only one that is spammed to burst down people even when they are at an advantage in the fight.

Ancient Ranger.3276:

What I don’t under stand is stealth is a thieves defensive mechanic, it the only class that can burst from its defensive mechanic and on 4 second cool-down(revealed debuff). Every other classes defensive mechanic normally means they are losing and trying to get back in the fight. Thief’s defensive mechanic is the only one that is spammed to burst down people even when they are at an advantage in the fight.

I feel Anet was a bit short sighted when it came to designing stealth. Its not a good idea to design a class around being invisible most of the time. This type of idea may work well in a single player game but in a game with pvp it will always end up overpowered in some way.

One interesting thing about backstab is that its a extremely hard hitting skill that requires no type of build up to achieve such high damage. Using wow for a example, with rogue, they would have to build up combo points to hit with big numbers. So hitting with alpha strikes over and over again was impossible.

Perhaps a solution to backstab would be to tie the damage into how much initative is available for to the thief. The lower the initiative the lower the damage, the higher the initiative the higher the damage.

Aza.2105:

Perhaps a solution to backstab would be to tie the damage into how much initative is available for to the thief. The lower the initiative the lower the damage, the higher the initiative the higher the damage.

You do that and you’ll see nothing but thieves staying stealthed for as long as possible; or even worse, more thieves would just run p/d and destroy everything (besides roaming necros :P) in their path through attrition. BS is nothing more than a noob tube, easy to use and easy to fight against.

Aza.2105:

Ancient Ranger.3276:

What I don’t under stand is stealth is a thieves defensive mechanic, it the only class that can burst from its defensive mechanic and on 4 second cool-down(revealed debuff). Every other classes defensive mechanic normally means they are losing and trying to get back in the fight. Thief’s defensive mechanic is the only one that is spammed to burst down people even when they are at an advantage in the fight.

I feel Anet was a bit short sighted when it came to designing stealth. Its not a good idea to design a class around being invisible most of the time. This type of idea may work well in a single player game but in a game with pvp it will always end up overpowered in some way.

One interesting thing about backstab is that its a extremely hard hitting skill that requires no type of build up to achieve such high damage. Using wow for a example, with rogue, they would have to build up combo points to hit with big numbers. So hitting with alpha strikes over and over again was impossible.

Perhaps a solution to backstab would be to tie the damage into how much initative is available for to the thief. The lower the initiative the lower the damage, the higher the initiative the higher the damage.

I don’t see how that would make sense as bs take no initative and most thieves spam 1 for multiple BS’s using BS+spam1+cloakndagger+BS+ repeat. T he only time a thief is really using initative is when he is spamming heart seeker when your almost dead and then he is not likely to go back into stealth until the stomp. It would make more sense for BS to be a finishing move rather than an opening move. More damage with less initative. Less damage with more initative.

killshot says hello

Killshot say hello very loudly and slowly that is a learn to dodge issue. I do agree is sometimes hard to see the warrior if the warrior is positioned correctly but that just good game play by the warrior.