Guild Wars 2

Could add 2 sigil slots in the Hero panel where the 2nd weapon option normally appears. There an engi can equip sigils that are activated only when a kit is being used. Otherwise, the actual weapon sigils are treated as active when no kit is used and the weapon is out.

As for ele, no idea.

Make an out-of-combat weapon swap option available to engis and eles.
Like all the other classes but then the ~ button is grayed out while in combat.
Now you can have your stacking sigil on the off-set while still being tied to only 1 weapon set (in combat).
This has been requested numerous times before the sigil issue was even an issue at all.

Obviously none of you watched the twitch.tv cast…
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3928027 at 44:00, they say that “if you un-equip a stacking sigil, you will lose those stacks”

In my opinion, ele and engi (I run both) do not need anymore slots. We technically have 4-6 weapons, depending on 1-2 handed weapons (with attunement and kit changes), where other classes have a max of 4. Not to mention the swap sigils also proc on using conjured weapons for eles.

Breaking news: After 1.5 years of getting punished, Elementalist get punished even more come April 15, stay tune.

The point being, these new traits combine with the sigil changes have gone a long way to show that Arenanet doesn’t have a clue on the whole concept of balancing a game.

I feel like the devs could not even balance a chair on a flat surface.

Elementalist are seriously Overpowered and are in need of Punishment/Balance. In other word, they deserve anything, everything that will keep them under control.

Engineers in the other hand are slowly getting stronger . In other word, any harm that will make them less effective, less powerful, i Sympathize and Appose.

They should really just allow us to have a second weapon equipped but only able to swap it out of combat. Would fix 2 issues. The stack on kill sigils as well as having to hold a second weapon in your inventory.

or you mean rifle engi and staff ele are already being punished

or you can compare to other classes with 4 one handed weapon.

which is by design.

Simon.3794:

or you mean rifle engi and staff ele are already being punished

or you can compare to other classes with 4 one handed weapon.

which is by design.

Yeah, the TC is pretty much wrong but there is an issue with the stacking sigil changes that wasn’t mentioned in the OP.

Ray.2640:

Make an out-of-combat weapon swap option available to engis and eles.
Like all the other classes but then the ~ button is grayed out while in combat.
Now you can have your stacking sigil on the off-set while still being tied to only 1 weapon set (in combat).
This has been requested numerous times before the sigil issue was even an issue at all.

This is not a viable option because it will shift the disadvantage to the other 6 classes instead.
Eles and Engis will have the effect of the stacking sigil plus the effects of the two sigils on their weapons all the time while other classes will have this only 50% of the time.

In order for this to be balanced one of the following changes must happen:

-Remove stacking sigils.
-Make a third slot for only stacking sigils that is separate from the weapon for all professions.
-Make stacking sigils only apply their buff when you are using the weapon that has the sigil (buff is gone when you swap but comes back with the same amount of stacks when you go back to the weapon with the sigil).

The funny thing is that elementalists and engineers should be the versatile classes. And yet, about sigils, they’re going to be the less versatile ones.

Ganathar.4956:

Simon.3794:

or you mean rifle engi and staff ele are already being punished

or you can compare to other classes with 4 one handed weapon.

which is by design.

Yeah, the TC is pretty much wrong but there is an issue with the stacking sigil changes that wasn’t mentioned in the OP.

Ray.2640:

Make an out-of-combat weapon swap option available to engis and eles.
Like all the other classes but then the ~ button is grayed out while in combat.
Now you can have your stacking sigil on the off-set while still being tied to only 1 weapon set (in combat).
This has been requested numerous times before the sigil issue was even an issue at all.

This is not a viable option because it will shift the disadvantage to the other 6 classes instead.
Eles and Engis will have the effect of the stacking sigil plus the effects of the two sigils on their weapons all the time while other classes will have this only 50% of the time.

In order for this to be balanced one of the following changes must happen:

-Remove stacking sigils.
-Make a third slot for only stacking sigils that is separate from the weapon for all professions.
-Make stacking sigils only apply their buff when you are using the weapon that has the sigil (buff is gone when you swap but comes back with the same amount of stacks when you go back to the weapon with the sigil).

You’re correct but the thing that worries me is that after the patch I will only have 1 sigil slot besides the stacking sigil. Whereas other classes have 3. So yes, they can use them half the time but at least they have the advantage of having 3 unique sigils. And are able to slot them in a way that benefits them the most.
Running without a stacking sigil gives the ele/engi 2 sigils to proc 100% of the time and the other classes 4 sigils to proc half the time. The issue is with the stacking sigil.
I don’t see how either giving up 250 stats, on a class which already has a stat disadvantage over every other class in the game, or losing a sigil is a good change at all. Especially when the general consensus is that the ele is actually in need of help.

Ray.2640:

Ganathar.4956:

Simon.3794:

or you mean rifle engi and staff ele are already being punished

or you can compare to other classes with 4 one handed weapon.

which is by design.

Yeah, the TC is pretty much wrong but there is an issue with the stacking sigil changes that wasn’t mentioned in the OP.

Ray.2640:

Make an out-of-combat weapon swap option available to engis and eles.
Like all the other classes but then the ~ button is grayed out while in combat.
Now you can have your stacking sigil on the off-set while still being tied to only 1 weapon set (in combat).
This has been requested numerous times before the sigil issue was even an issue at all.

This is not a viable option because it will shift the disadvantage to the other 6 classes instead.
Eles and Engis will have the effect of the stacking sigil plus the effects of the two sigils on their weapons all the time while other classes will have this only 50% of the time.

In order for this to be balanced one of the following changes must happen:

-Remove stacking sigils.
-Make a third slot for only stacking sigils that is separate from the weapon for all professions.
-Make stacking sigils only apply their buff when you are using the weapon that has the sigil (buff is gone when you swap but comes back with the same amount of stacks when you go back to the weapon with the sigil).

You’re correct but the thing that worries me is that after the patch I will only have 1 sigil slot besides the stacking sigil. Whereas other classes have 3. So yes, they can use them half the time but at least they have the advantage of having 3 unique sigils. And are able to slot them in a way that benefits them the most.
Running without a stacking sigil gives the ele/engi 2 sigils to proc 100% of the time and the other classes 4 sigils to proc half the time. The issue is with the stacking sigil.
I don’t see how either giving up 250 stats, on a class which already has a stat disadvantage over every other class in the game, or losing a sigil is a good change at all. Especially when the general consensus is that the ele is actually in need of help.

Exactly. People should put into account that all other classes aside from Ele/Engi can still use 3 different sigils while using stacking sigils.

Did you even think this proposed change on stacking sigils through? Alla classes with weapon swap will have 3 active sigils on one of their sets if they run a stacking sigil, compared to eles and engis which will always have 2. How fair does that sound? You either change it so all classes with weapon swap have to run a stacking sigil in both sets, or you leave it as it is now.

Chuck Zitto.2367:

Just another nerf to ele that is already in really bad shape with no help coming in the next patch. Oh sucks for engis to but they are in a pretty good spot balance wise.

Not really, one of the lowest output damage ratings in PvE, and mostly condi-bunker only in PvP.

It seems like a lot of these decisions were made by people who understand that some professions will benefit more, and even acknowledge that, but no one looked at the whole package and said “wait, why are we sticking it to Eles and Engies disproportionately?”

/bump fgj
still curious how they ll fix this problem or even make a try to fix. or not…

i dont know if someone already wrote it but i want to make this example:

I’m an Engineer and i would like to run a NoKit-Build….

What am i supposed to do with the 8 on swap sigils?

Why for a class mechanic i can’t use 1/4 of the sigil of this game?

Why if i want to use a good sigil like the energy one am i FORCED to run a kit?

Was not enough the fact that engineer has only 1 weapon choise? Wasn’t enough that we can use only 2 sigils while the other class can use 4?

We can run with only half of the sigils of the other classes and if we want have a chance to use them all you MUST use one of you’re skill’s slots for a kit, otherwise the on swap ones simply dosen’t works !!

I think this is a really unfair and limited class restriction!

(sorry for my english if i did any mystake))

Ederyn.3107:

i dont know if someone already wrote it but i want to make this example:

I’m an Engineer and i would like to run a NoKit-Build….

What am i supposed to do with the 8 on swap sigils?

Why for a class mechanic i can’t use 1/4 of the sigil of this game?

Why if i want to use a good sigil like the energy one am i FORCED to run a kit?

Was not enough the fact that engineer has only 1 weapon choise? Wasn’t enough that we can use only 2 sigils while the other class can use 4?

We can run with only half of the sigils of the other classes and if we want have a chance to use them all you MUST use one of you’re skill’s slots for a kit, otherwise the on swap ones simply dosen’t works !!

I think this is a really unfair and limited class restriction!

(sorry for my english if i did any mystake))

You would like to run a build without kits? are you trying to take the fun out of the game?

Engineer was designed around the kits, they are funnier than engineer’s main weapons, funnier than the other utilities by far, and you won’t deal enough damage (PvP or PvE) without them.

Your asking if you can play without kits and still get the sigil effects is the same as someone from another class asking if he can play with two off-hand weapons and no main hand weapons and still get 4 sigils..

Except that, for other classes, having those weapon slots you mention isn’t an option. They always have them.
And engineers are balanced upon something – using kit – that is completely optional.
Even having multiple penalties due to it – lack of a second weapon and nerfed dps for the main weapon – by design.

The fact that you had to make an absurd example about kits and sigils is just further proof of the absurdity of engineers’ design and balancing.

Something optional shouldn’t dictate the balance of an entire class. It is simple logic.
And when the opposite happens, the class’ balance is screwed.
You said it yourself – you won’t deal enough damage without kits. And why does that happens? Because you find yourself with a single weapon, thus using the weak autoattacks most of the time. And why is there a single weapon? Because of kits.

Unless they change their mind about the second weapon slot for engineers, non-kit builds will always be a waste.
And before someone comes out with “static discharge”…that trait depends on the toolbelt cooldowns, rather than the utilities themselves. And it is more of a gimmick, anyway.

New Sigil of Bloodlust’s description

Only one attribute-stacking sigil can be active at a time.

DiogoSilva.7089:

New Sigil of Bloodlust’s description

Only one attribute-stacking sigil can be active at a time.

Pretty sure that’s just refering to the fact that you can have two types, like perception and bloodlust, at once.

Manuhell.2759:

Except that, for other classes, having those weapon slots you mention isn’t an option. They always have them.
And engineers are balanced upon something – using kit – that is completely optional.
Even having multiple penalties due to it – lack of a second weapon and nerfed dps for the main weapon – by design.

The fact that you had to make an absurd example about kits and sigils is just further proof of the absurdity of engineers’ design and balancing.

Something optional shouldn’t dictate the balance of an entire class. It is simple logic.
And when the opposite happens, the class’ balance is screwed.
You said it yourself – you won’t deal enough damage without kits. And why does that happens? Because you find yourself with a single weapon, thus using the weak autoattacks most of the time. And why is there a single weapon? Because of kits.

Unless they change their mind about the second weapon slot for engineers, non-kit builds will always be a waste.
And before someone comes out with “static discharge”…that trait depends on the toolbelt cooldowns, rather than the utilities themselves. And it is more of a gimmick, anyway.

No doubt, engineers are elementalists without utility skills. They’re very poorly designed.

Manuhell.2759:

Except that, for other classes, having those weapon slots you mention isn’t an option. They always have them.
And engineers are balanced upon something – using kit – that is completely optional.
Even having multiple penalties due to it – lack of a second weapon and nerfed dps for the main weapon – by design.

The fact that you had to make an absurd example about kits and sigils is just further proof of the absurdity of engineers’ design and balancing.

Something optional shouldn’t dictate the balance of an entire class. It is simple logic.
And when the opposite happens, the class’ balance is screwed.
You said it yourself – you won’t deal enough damage without kits. And why does that happens? Because you find yourself with a single weapon, thus using the weak autoattacks most of the time. And why is there a single weapon? Because of kits.

Unless they change their mind about the second weapon slot for engineers, non-kit builds will always be a waste.
And before someone comes out with “static discharge”…that trait depends on the toolbelt cooldowns, rather than the utilities themselves. And it is more of a gimmick, anyway.

I just made this

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Engi-new-class-mechanic-Smuggled-parts/first#post3852162

what do you think?

Ederyn.3107:

Manuhell.2759:

Except that, for other classes, having those weapon slots you mention isn’t an option. They always have them.
And engineers are balanced upon something – using kit – that is completely optional.
Even having multiple penalties due to it – lack of a second weapon and nerfed dps for the main weapon – by design.

The fact that you had to make an absurd example about kits and sigils is just further proof of the absurdity of engineers’ design and balancing.

Something optional shouldn’t dictate the balance of an entire class. It is simple logic.
And when the opposite happens, the class’ balance is screwed.
You said it yourself – you won’t deal enough damage without kits. And why does that happens? Because you find yourself with a single weapon, thus using the weak autoattacks most of the time. And why is there a single weapon? Because of kits.

Unless they change their mind about the second weapon slot for engineers, non-kit builds will always be a waste.
And before someone comes out with “static discharge”…that trait depends on the toolbelt cooldowns, rather than the utilities themselves. And it is more of a gimmick, anyway.

I just made this

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Engi-new-class-mechanic-Smuggled-parts/first#post3852162

what do you think?

That regarding non-kit builds it would still be better than the current situation, but wouldn’t change much overall, and surely those would still be inferior compared to other classes.

Any other class has got 2 weapons, their utilities and their class mechanic. We’ve got a single weapon, our utilities and our class mechanic, that is, the toolbelt.
(and then there are elementalists, who work in a different way…)

The toolbelt itself doesn’t warrant the lack of a weapon slot; they’ve balanced utilities and toolbelts together, so to get a strong toolbelt, we also get a weak utility (see: elixir R). Even if we were to consider the sheer number of toolbelt skills…it is just one more than the guardian’s main mechanic – they’ve got three signets, basically. And a mini-utility isn’t as good kitten weapon skills, imho.

Also, there would still be the issue about having 2 sigils instead of 4 (and if the stacking sigil doesn’t need to be equipped on both sets to work, it would be quite an heavy disadvantage).

Khalic.3561:

DiogoSilva.7089:

New Sigil of Bloodlust’s description

Only one attribute-stacking sigil can be active at a time.

Pretty sure that’s just refering to the fact that you can have two types, like perception and bloodlust, at once.

The description does not mentions “types”. It very clearly states that only a single sigil that can stack attributes can be active, regardless of which sigil it is.

Else, it would have read something like:
“Only one attribute-stacking sigil of the same type can be active at a time.”

Ok ok! I got our solution! (As long as devs dont read this) Get 2 stacking sigils of the same type. Equip one in underwater wep and one normally. Get your stacks as normal and switch to what other weapon you use. Now the stacks won’t go away because you still got the underwater weapon equipped!

- Genius

There is a Reddit post (see engineer forum) that indicates from ANET that this is getting fixed. ANET didn’t need to respond to the question, but did and said wait a couple of weeks.

Uhtameit.2413:

You would like to run a build without kits? are you trying to take the fun out of the game?

Engineer was designed around the kits, they are funnier than engineer’s main weapons, funnier than the other utilities by far, and you won’t deal enough damage (PvP or PvE) without them.

Your asking if you can play without kits and still get the sigil effects is the same as someone from another class asking if he can play with two off-hand weapons and no main hand weapons and still get 4 sigils..

Your wrong. Originally kits didn’t count as weapons swaps. Engineers were designed around the tool belt, with kits in mind. There is a huge difference. As well, now that they are making a push to try to solidify turret builds, and beef up gadgets, the concerns mentioned in this thread are very legitimate.

Bombsaway.7198:

There is a Reddit post (see engineer forum) that indicates from ANET that this is getting fixed. ANET didn’t need to respond to the question, but did and said wait a couple of weeks.

That’s about kit scaling when you have ascended/legendary weapons, though. Not about sigils.

coglin.1867:

Your wrong. Originally kits didn’t count as weapons swaps. Engineers were designed around the tool belt, with kits in mind. There is a huge difference. As well, now that they are making a push to try to solidify turret builds, and beef up gadgets, the concerns mentioned in this thread are very legitimate.

He’s not wrong, actually. The engineer’s class balance philosophy explicitely states that the low damage of engineers’ main weapons is due to kits.
Thus, saying we are designed around them and we won’t deal enough damage without them is fundamentally right.

Just because they adjusted weapons with kits in mind, does not mean they designed the entire professions around kits, which is what he is suggesting and thus I feel he is wrong. As well, what I should have said was “I feel he is wrong”, because it is my opinion that he is wrong. We are all making interpretations.

You sure do like to make assumptions though. Your not offering any facts what so ever to support that they are designed around kits as he suggested, they were designed with kits in mind, there is a difference. All you are showing with your information is that weapons were designed with kits in mind. Again, there is a difference.

Either way, your missing the point. Of all the issues here, you are choosing to pick a fight over whose defining of it is more accurate. The fact is, your very strongly displaying support to fully exclude full turret or gadget builds.

Sometimes it truly baffles me when folks such as yourself argue in favor of situations that limit build options or in this particular case, impose strict punishments for builds options.

You can argue it or color it how ever you wish, but in no way is it reasonable to punish a professions for building towards a full heal/utility set such as a full turret build, a full elixir build, or a full gadget build.

coglin.1867:

Uhtameit.2413:

You would like to run a build without kits? are you trying to take the fun out of the game?

Engineer was designed around the kits, they are funnier than engineer’s main weapons, funnier than the other utilities by far, and you won’t deal enough damage (PvP or PvE) without them.

Your asking if you can play without kits and still get the sigil effects is the same as someone from another class asking if he can play with two off-hand weapons and no main hand weapons and still get 4 sigils..

Your wrong. Originally kits didn’t count as weapons swaps. Engineers were designed around the tool belt, with kits in mind. There is a huge difference. As well, now that they are making a push to try to solidify turret builds, and beef up gadgets, the concerns mentioned in this thread are very legitimate.

You’re wrong. Engineer needs to be able to use swap sigils for the sake of balance.

Buffing turrets and gagets won’t help since gadgets don’t deal damage and turrets are boring and useless whenever there is AoE.

Yes, the concerns in this thread are legitimate, that’s why I bumped it myself in the first place (my message got deleted by a moderator though, so you’re free to not believe me).

Uhtameit.2413:

You’re wrong. Engineer needs to be able to use swap sigils for the sake of balance.

How am I wrong, when my entire argument is that engineers should be able to use swap sigils for the sake of balance.

Uhtameit.2413:

Buffing turrets and gagets won’t help since gadgets don’t deal damage and turrets are boring and useless whenever there is AoE.

Umm, Mine, PBR, and rocket boots all do solid damage, on both the utility skill itself and the tool belt aspect. As far as turrets go, I was referring specifically to the efforts they are making to beef them up.

Uhtameit.2413:

Yes, the concerns in this thread are legitimate, that’s why I bumped it myself in the first place (my message got deleted by a moderator though, so you’re free to not believe me).

I know they are legitimate, that is specifically why I said that. As to why you promote “bumping” the thread when it is specifically against the forums code of conduct is beyond me. I have no idea why you promote that you break forum rule, or how it is relevant.

You and I are on the same side of the fence here. I can only assume you skimmed my post instead of reading it, and made an incorrect assumption of my meaning in your rush. My entire point is that they need to find a solution for those who use gadgets or turret build. Whether you find turrets useful or not is irrelevant, there still needs to be some sort of solution for sigil value when using them. Players should not be punished by using full elixir, gadget, or turret builds. As of now, when we do, we are punished by an complete inability to use weapon swap sigils. Some of this may change with an upcoming update, and we may simply not be aware of it yet. If not, they really should look into it.

coglin.1867:

Just because they adjusted weapons with kits in mind, does not mean they designed the entire professions around kits, which is what he is suggesting and thus I feel he is wrong. As well, what I should have said was “I feel he is wrong”, because it is my opinion that he is wrong. We are all making interpretations.

You sure do like to make assumptions though. Your not offering any facts what so ever to support that they are designed around kits as he suggested, they were designed with kits in mind, there is a difference. All you are showing with your information is that weapons were designed with kits in mind. Again, there is a difference.

Putting a fixed penality on the assumption that you will use a kit to make up for it means designing the class around kits, there isn’t much to argue about that.
If we don’t use kits, we are underpowered. By design. Because we get the full disadvantage, without the advantage.
Those are facts. That doesn’t mean i like the current situation, but rather, that it is just how it is, at least for now.

coglin.1867:

Either way, your missing the point. Of all the issues here, you are choosing to pick a fight over whose defining of it is more accurate. The fact is, your very strongly displaying support to fully exclude full turret or gadget builds.

Sometimes it truly baffles me when folks such as yourself argue in favor of situations that limit build options or in this particular case, impose strict punishments for builds options.

You can argue it or color it how ever you wish, but in no way is it reasonable to punish a professions for building towards a full heal/utility set such as a full turret build, a full elixir build, or a full gadget build.

And i agree with this. As i said above, i was merely stating the current situation, that is highly unfavourable for anything that doesn’t include kits.
But we’re balanced like that, and unless they change their mind, we’ll continue to be balanced like that. And buffing a couple turrets or gadgets won’t be enough – the lack of a second weapon isn’t that small of an handicap, after all. Especially if the dps of the remaining one is nerfed by design.

Manuhell.2759:

Putting a fixed penality on the assumption that you will use a kit to make up for it means designing the class around kits, there isn’t much to argue about that.

Why isn’t there much argument? I am going to assume it is because you do not have the slightest idea why it is that way. ON RELEASE, SIGILS WERE NEVER EFFECTED BY KITS . …………IT IS NOT PART OF THE DESIGN, THE ENGINEER COMMUNITY SIMPLY DEMANDED FOR MONTH’S TO HAVE SIGILS WORK AS THEY DO NOW. IT WAS NEVER EVER PART OF ANETS DESIGN. INSTEAD IT WAS VERY LITERALLY A DIRECT FULFILLMENT OF A VERY SPECIFIC COMMUNITY REQUEST.

So do us both a favor, and stop telling me why or how things function, when you, yourself do not have the slightest idea of the “FACTS” of the situation.

Manuhell.2759:

If we don’t use kits, we are underpowered. By design. Because we get the full disadvantage, without the advantage.
Those are facts. That doesn’t mean i like the current situation, but rather, that it is just how it is, at least for now.

That is not true at all. you are factually in accurate. You have yet to offer an actual fact. Actually all of your fact thus far on this matter were either subjective opinion, or very literally factually inaccurate. As I see it, with static discharge, AED, PBR, Mine, and Utility goggles, I feel one can out damage almost any kit build on a single target. So they do not have a specific advantage with single target damage. A player can make a CC that has just as many CC skill without kits as with, so kits do not offer a specific CC advantage. Elixirs offer AoE stability, AoE invisibility, the ability to max stacks of might, great condition removal, and other various utility.

The only unarguable disadvantage they have is being hosed on weapon swap kits.

Manuhell.2759:

And i agree with this. As i said above, i was merely stating the current situation, that is highly unfavourable for anything that doesn’t include kits.

Then why do you keep attacking me for my personal opinion, while you keep claiming your personal opinion is fact ???

Manuhell.2759:

But we’re balanced like that, and unless they change their mind, we’ll continue to be balanced like that. And buffing a couple turrets or gadgets won’t be enough – the lack of a second weapon isn’t that small of an handicap, after all. Especially if the dps of the remaining one is nerfed by design.

Again, we are not “balanced” like that at all. They very literally only added sigils to kit swap based on community outrage and hundreds of post and threads, just like this one.

As for whether a lack of a weapon swap is a handicap or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that they gave us our request when we asked for sigils to effect kits. Now we are making similar request in an attempt to try to solve the obvious disadvantage have having access to less sigils in any given build. Your view of whether no weapon swap is a disadvantage or advantage has nothing to do with it.

coglin.1867:

Why isn’t there much argument? I am going to assume it is because you do not have the slightest idea why it is that way. ON RELEASE, SIGILS WERE NEVER EFFECTED BY KITS . …………IT IS NOT PART OF THE DESIGN, THE ENGINEER COMMUNITY SIMPLY DEMANDED FOR MONTH’S TO HAVE SIGILS WORK AS THEY DO NOW. IT WAS NEVER EVER PART OF ANETS DESIGN. INSTEAD IT WAS VERY LITERALLY A DIRECT FULFILLMENT OF A VERY SPECIFIC COMMUNITY REQUEST.

So do us both a favor, and stop telling me why or how things function, when you, yourself do not have the slightest idea of the “FACTS” of the situation.

And the class balance philosophy was written in the same update of the sigil change you’re talking about. There is no mention of sigils in it, by the way. It talks about a generic “cost in damage of their main hand weapons” due to kits.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/999247

Thus, i would say that the one that hasn’t got the slightest idea of the facts is you.
We have a fixed penality due to kits, thus we are designed around them, like it or not.
Personally i don’t like it, but this is how it is. Unless it will be changed.

coglin.1867:

That is not true at all. you are factually in accurate. You have yet to offer an actual fact. Actually all of your fact thus far on this matter were either subjective opinion, or very literally factually inaccurate. As I see it, with static discharge, AED, PBR, Mine, and Utility goggles, I feel one can out damage almost any kit build on a single target. So they do not have a specific advantage with single target damage. A player can make a CC that has just as many CC skill without kits as with, so kits do not offer a specific CC advantage. Elixirs offer AoE stability, AoE invisibility, the ability to max stacks of might, great condition removal, and other various utility.

The only unarguable disadvantage they have is being hosed on weapon swap kits.

See the class balance philosophy for yourself: i just stated what is written there. By design, we’re supposed to be using kits and have low damaging main weapons.
It is merely logical that if we aren’t using kits, we are giving up the advantage, but not the disadvantage. Or do you think to know better than the devs about how they have designed the class?

P.S. Static Discharge depends on toolbelt cooldowns, not on the utilities themselves; if they ever put a kit with a low cooldown toolbelt, it will be used with SD, because the utility itself doesn’t matter.

coglin.1867:

Then why do you keep attacking me for my personal opinion, while you keep claiming your personal opinion is fact ???

Because i’m stating facts, as far as this argument goes. I’m quoting the class balance philosophies written by the devs themselves – there is no more official source than those, basically. If those aren’t facts, i don’t know what else could be.
Albeit, as i’ll detail below, there could be a misunderstanding in process.

coglin.1867:

Again, we are not “balanced” like that at all. They very literally only added sigils to kit swap based on community outrage and hundreds of post and threads, just like this one.

As for whether a lack of a weapon swap is a handicap or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that they gave us our request when we asked for sigils to effect kits. Now we are making similar request in an attempt to try to solve the obvious disadvantage have having access to less sigils in any given build. Your view of whether no weapon swap is a disadvantage or advantage has nothing to do with it.

It would seem you’re misunderstanding what i was argumenting for, though. I was objecting to your argument of “they haven’t designed the profession around kits”. I wasn’t talking about sigil swaps.
And the lack of weapon swap is exactly what brings us to have just 2 sigils and no way of using on-swap sigils when we aren’t using kits, so i would say it is quite related to the problem in question (especially since the new rules on stacking ones will bring us to have a single sigil beside that one, unlike other classes that will be able to use three other sigils beside the stacking one).

I should also add that when they “gave us our request” about sigils and kits they also nerfed them all (albeit the patch notes aren’t detailed enough to say what and how much was nerfed). Something that they aren’t doing with two handed weapons, that are instead getting a second sigil for free.

Again, what does any of that have to do with only having access to one sigil set versus other professions having access to two????

Why are you soooooo strongly against build diversity?? Why do you support forcing players to have a kit in their build??

Manuhell.2759:

It would seem you’re misunderstanding what i was argumenting for, though. I was objecting to your argument of “they haven’t designed the profession around kits”. I wasn’t talking about sigil swaps.

Again you are not understanding the difference between designing around kits and balancing around kits. How does a balancing philosophy have anything to do with design?

Manuhell.2759:

And the lack of weapon swap is exactly what brings us to have just 2 sigils and no way of using on-swap sigils when we aren’t using kits, so i would say it is quite related to the problem in question (especially since the new rules on stacking ones will bring us to have a single sigil beside that one, unlike other classes that will be able to use three other sigils beside the stacking one).

There are ways to allow us access to a second sigil set similar to other professions. You can claim there is no way all you like, but I assure, it is quit possible.

coglin.1867:

Again, what does any of that have to do with only having access to one sigil set versus other professions having access to two????

Because i was mainly replying to you about where i did take that part about our fixed penalty than about the sigils.

Why we have one sigil set and not two is something the devs should say, not me. As many other things about the class, i may just guess they didn’t even think about it.

coglin.1867:

Why are you soooooo strongly against build diversity?? Why do you support forcing players to have a kit in their build??

What exactly makes you think i support it? I thought i was explicit enough in saying the opposite. I don’t like the current situation at all.
I was merely stating the current situation, if it wasn’t clear enough. And the current situation is basically that: forcing us to have kits.

coglin.1867:

Again you are not understanding the difference between designing around kits and balancing around kits. How does a balancing philosophy have anything to do with design?

How else would you call having weaker weapons by default due to the existence of kits, if not “design around kits”? They’ve made something fixed – the main weapon – weaker due to something optional – kits.
A balancing would rather make the main weapon weaker when a kit is slotted, and only then – not just give a fixed penalty.
Accept it or not, but that’s how it is. Saying we’re designed around kits is correct. Else we wouldn’t have a fixed penalty.
It can change? Sure, but for now, that’s how it is.
Does that means that by not using kits we are weaker? Yes, and it is obvious why – because we still have the fixed disadvantage, without the advantage it was designed with.
Does it means that i like it? No, at all.

coglin.1867:

There are ways to allow us access to a second sigil set similar to other professions. You can claim there is no way all you like, but I assure, it is quit possible.

They can create a new system to be able to put two sets, obviously.
But the main reason why we don’t have two sets to start with is due of the lack of a second weapon. They just removed the possibility for engineers to have two sets, and never thought about having to give it back in other ways.

As well as the reason why a full gadget/elixir/turret build will be always subpar (SD is a special case already detailed above).
Having a single weapon is too big an handicap, sigils or not sigils. Those utilities aren’t necessarily stronger than other classes’ ones, and the main weapon is still nerfed by design, so that leaves us with a weaker-by-design main weapon and utilities comparable with other classes.
Sure, the second weapon argument is slightly off-topic, but if we are talking about build diversity it can’t be avoided; sigils aren’t the only thing hampering us in that regard.

And as above: does that mean that i like the current situation? No, it is horrible and shoehorns us toward kits.
But unless they change their minds about the question, that’s how it is, and we can’t do anything about that aside from writing in these threads.

Manuhell.2759:

coglin.1867:

Why are you soooooo strongly against build diversity?? Why do you support forcing players to have a kit in their build??

What exactly makes you think i support it? I thought i was explicit enough in saying the opposite. I don’t like the current situation at all.
I was merely stating the current situation, if it wasn’t clear enough. And the current situation is basically that: forcing us to have kits.

It felt like you supported it to me, because you immediately attacked my first to post, singling out my reasoning for making a change to allow us equivalent access to 4 sigils similar to other professions. It appeared you preferred picking a fight with me over the options of welcoming my thoughts on positive changes for the engineer and elementalist.

I am rather disappointed, 2 weeks old. I bumped it and got a ban and yet we still have no comment from Devs.

I wouldn’t mind as much for not having 4 Sigils IF as an Ele the 15 point traits were buffed to be really worth it. I only see Air and Water as being good and even that is dependent on the build you are running.

Fire – Increase Damage. Add Burning
Air – Increase Damage. Maybe add a 5second Blind?
Earth – Add 5 stacks of Torment for 5 seconds
Water – Increase The Healing by 50%

Not quite sure what could be done for Engineers though.

fix stacking sigils anet! remove stacks on SWAP! not just on unequip. and it’ll be balanced!

coglin.1867:

How am I wrong, when my entire argument is that engineers should be able to use swap sigils for the sake of balance.

Simple, I was making fun of your complete inability to spell “you’re”

coglin.1867:

Umm, Mine, PBR, and rocket boots all do solid damage, on both the utility skill itself and the tool belt aspect. As far as turrets go, I was referring specifically to the efforts they are making to beef them up.

PBR does kittenty damage even if you’re glass, the other do okay damage but will never make up for another kit (or a weapon set), they’re good for what they are : one utility skill.

coglin.1867:

As to why you promote “bumping” the thread when it is specifically against the forums code of conduct is beyond me. I have no idea why you promote that you break forum rule, or how it is relevant.

I don’t promote bumping, I promote this thread since it has raised a good issue and I wish that it gets more attention. At no point did I encourage anyone to bump, I just stated that I did so. And yes, CoC is life. I print it, shred it, mix it with milk and drink it every morning. Nom nom nom.

coglin.1867:

You and I are on the same side of the fence here. I can only assume you skimmed my post instead of reading it, and made an incorrect assumption of my meaning in your rush. My entire point is that they need to find a solution for those who use gadgets or turret build. Whether you find turrets useful or not is irrelevant, there still needs to be some sort of solution for sigil value when using them. Players should not be punished by using full elixir, gadget, or turret builds. As of now, when we do, we are punished by an complete inability to use weapon swap sigils. Some of this may change with an upcoming update, and we may simply not be aware of it yet. If not, they really should look into it.

I know we are, the way you started your answered annoyed me though. As I may have said earlier, an engineer is an elementalist without utility skills : being forced to run kits while offering some utilities other than kits is absurd which is basically saying that the whole class is absurdly designed. It’s as if the other classes had to pick between a stun breaker (or condi removal) and their second weapon set which they need (which is why engineers have issues getting their hands on stun breakers/condi removals).
To be honest though, as it stands, elixir/turrets builds are extremely boring, gadgets builds are slightly less boring since rocket boots are awesome, and none of those are truly viable (neither PvE nor PvP) because of the issue I just stated (regardless of sigils). To be absolutely honest, turret build is decent in 1v1 with carrion amulet in PvP.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I am rather disappointed, 2 weeks old. I bumped it and got a ban and yet we still have no comment from Devs.

I am so, so sorry. I was a bit lazy so I bumped the thread with a quote from your bump post, I may have played a part in that DDD:

On a side note, ANET YES PLZ COMMENT PLZ THIS IS IMPORTANT !!1!!!1!11!1

Anyone else got any ideas how this could be fixed? They could make “Kit Refinement” Part of the class (Engineer) reduce the cool down to 10 seconds. This would mean having to make a new trait but i think it could work.

The skills would need to be adjusted both in duration and power as the cool down would be reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.

The 15 point traits for Ele would be more powerful as Ele would have to spend trait points for them but if they did make Kit Refinement changes and made it part of the class and buffing up the ele 15point traits then i think it would make up for the reduced sigil number.

I think water 15 should be combined with Cleaning Wave (Water X) because the current Cleansing Wave is half of the skill Cleansing Wave on offhand dagger, while healing ripple (Water 15) is the other half. This could open up Water 15 for a new water trait (maybe something else to boost damage, or more chills). On a completely off-topic note, I think the trait in the fire line, Cleansing Fire, should function like the Cleansing Wave trait, but remove 3 conditions on swapping to fire, without the healing bonus.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Anyone else got any ideas how this could be fixed? They could make “Kit Refinement” Part of the class (Engineer) reduce the cool down to 10 seconds. This would mean having to make a new trait but i think it could work.

The skills would need to be adjusted both in duration and power as the cool down would be reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.

The 15 point traits for Ele would be more powerful as Ele would have to spend trait points for them but if they did make Kit Refinement changes and made it part of the class and buffing up the ele 15point traits then i think it would make up for the reduced sigil number.

It wouldn’t help. As the name implies, it would work only with kits…leaving the non-kit builds with the same problems as before. And those are the ones that actually need help the most.
And my idea is always the same: just let us have that second weapon slot. There was never a reason for engineers to lack one, anyway, and unless we get it, non-kit builds will always be penalized compared to other classes.

Regarding elementalists, instead, seeing as having those 4 weapon sets is their class mechanic, they could implement some sort of way of slotting two additional sigils and make them alternate when alignements are swapped (and make it so that pressing the swap key out of combat makes them swap the sigils). And then they could implement some trait that would give them access to all those sigils at the same time.

Manuhell.2759:

It wouldn’t help. As the name implies, it would work only with kits…leaving the non-kit builds with the same problems as before. And those are the ones that actually need help the most.
And my idea is always the same: just let us have that second weapon slot. There was never a reason for engineers to lack one, anyway, and unless we get it, non-kit builds will always be penalized compared to other classes.

Regarding elementalists, instead, seeing as having those 4 weapon sets is their class mechanic, they could implement some sort of way of slotting two additional sigils and make them alternate when alignements are swapped (and make it so that pressing the swap key out of combat makes them swap the sigils). And then they could implement some trait that would give them access to all those sigils at the same time.

Yeah that would be the only issue, tough with that being said i have never encountered an Engineer that doesn’t use at least 1 kit. I mean aren’t the kits the reason they do rather low damage because they are balanced around having the Kits, just like Ele have low damage and insane cool downs because they are balanced around having the 4 attunements.

How about this:

Rather than Kit Refinement added as class mechanic, it gets left in as a trait with the reduced cool down and adjusted effects and another similar trait is added that affects turrets? Of course this trait wouldn’t work on Supply Crate but for example -

Flame Turret – When placed creates an AoE damage that inflicts Burning on targets within 240radius

Net Turret – When placed creates an AoE Immobilize for 1second on targets within 240radius

Of course these effects would have a 10 second shared cool down

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yeah that would be the only issue, tough with that being said i have never encountered an Engineer that doesn’t use at least 1 kit. I mean aren’t the kits the reason they do rather low damage because they are balanced around having the Kits, just like Ele have low damage and insane cool downs because they are balanced around having the 4 attunements.

But that’s because we’re basically forced to use kits even if they are theoretically optional, seeing as we’ve been forcefully balanced toward them. Making us terrible if we don’t use them.
An engineer without kits is the class with the least skills in the game,due to no second weapon, basically. And you end up using the autoattack most of the time.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rather than Kit Refinement added as class mechanic, it gets left in as a trait with the reduced cool down and adjusted effects and another similar trait is added that affects turrets? Of course this trait wouldn’t work on Supply Crate but for example -

Flame Turret – When placed creates an AoE damage that inflicts Burning on targets within 240radius

Net Turret – When placed creates an AoE Immobilize for 1second on targets within 240radius

Of course these effects would have a 10 second shared cool down

It wouldn’t solve the sigil issue, though. And it would be basically an offensive version of the new turret trait.
The problems are in the baseline. And the engineer baseline is terrible, due of the lack of the second weapon. The toolbelt can’t replace a second weapon, after all, and neither it should. Especially when other classes get 3 signets as their mechanic – guardians – for free.

And turrets, too, are terrible.

What disappoint me is that we are talking about it for almost 2 months and we still haven’t an answer from someone.
I mean, there are most of engis and eles here that pretend an answer, not 2 dudes.

It will be fine just yes we are thinking about it or no we don’t care, but as usual they continue to ignore, delete, close the posts.
I will not stay here much longer…

In my opinion the stacking sigil have to work only with the current weapon set that has it. Simple and quick solution.
Engineer: Due to the past nerf of the kits cause of sigils, stacking sigils should also work on kits.
This should be a fair balance.

I don’t like to say anything about ele cause I never played it so I’ll pass the ball.

sometimes the qq gets absurd… qq for the sake of qq?

before update:
warrior gs/bow => 2 different sigill
ranger gs/bow => 2 different sigill
ele staff => 1 sigill
engi rifle => 1 sigill
warrior=> 2 different weapon sets
ranger => 2 different weapon sets
ele => 4 different weapon sets
engi => 4 possible weapon sets

after update
warrior gs/bow => 4 different sigill
ranger gs/bow => 4 different sigill
ele staff => 2 sigill
engi rifle => 2 sigill
warrior=> 2 different weapon sets
ranger => 2 different weapon sets
ele => 4 different weapon sets
engi => 4 possible weapon sets

only advantage i see after the update is for warior with faster hands and on weapon-swap sigills. but the effects will barely be visible only if the warrior swaps as soon as he can ignoring the situation.

sigills and runes are to extend your build and not to define it. i see nothing to qq about

No it’s not.. You stack up with a different weapon and switch it out when you have full stacks as of now. Since you can’t do that after the patch, all classes with weapon swap will have an advantage over eles and engis sigil-wise when they can benefit from 3 sigils on one of their swaps.

It is not exactly as before, and here is why:
Two classes have one weapon-set which equals access of two sigils. Six classes have two weapon-sets which equals access of four sigils. If on one of those two weapon-sets you have a stacking sigil and swap to the other set you are effectively using three sigils on that weapon-set where as the two classes that have only one can not take advantage of this.

As of now you can have a stacking weapon to unequip after getting stacks and swap it to another thus allowing all classes access to three sigils effectively. Thus this is a nerf to ele and engi with how they can effectively use sigils. So unless they either force you to run the stacking sigil on both weapons or cut the stat amount they give the six classes will have advantage over the two in terms of viable sigils for weapon-sets.

So if you take in to consideration that they are pushing to try and open more sigil options it is counter-intutive to ele and engi since they now effectively have less. That 250 stats with most classes scale better then the other option of a static sigil that gives a hard percent base change. As in Perception stacks give you 11.9% crit chance and Accuracy gives you 5%. Why would you run Accuracy when the stacks give you more then double? I would have used power, but as it scales differently with every skill that can’t effectively be used to show the difference since each class is different with how effective bloodlust stacks are, though the 250 stat increase is one of the best setups for 90% of power builds over any other choice. Condi has the choice of 10% duration or 250 stacks, so it really depends on the build.

4 slots at the same time would be too much.

I would agree, though, with being able to have 2 weapon sets equipped, and being able to link them to kits and attunements (or make them alternate each other on attunement/kit change), without actually being able to swap the weapons themselves while in combat.

There’s several “swap out of combat” ideas around that could be used.

Equip two sets, you get the weapon skills of the set you had when you entered combat (or sPvP), and when you swap, the sigils effects would swap and trigger, but not the weapon skills. And when you leave combat (and are not in a sPvP match), you can swap the weapons themselves with the swap button that would become available.