Guild Wars 2

Anyone who has looked at stats on items/traitlines/foods throughout the game and then looked at critical damage on amulets in spvp knows how lowly the stat is weighed on them.

For comparison heres the stats on the jewel in pvp, compared to the amulet.

Valkyries Jewel
125 Power
75 Toughness
5% critical Damage
45 Healing

Valkyries Amulet
798 Power
569 Toughness
15% critical Damage
284 Healing

The power on the amulet is 6.3 times greater than the power on the jewel. The critical damage however is only 3 times greater. This isn’t because the power is overly efficient on the jewel, it’s because it’s weighed very poorly compared to everything else in the game. (this isn’t me saying to buff critical damage on pvp amulets, we’ll get to that in a bit)

There is currently only 3 amulets in Spvp that have Critical Damage.
Celestial
Valkyries
Berserkers

Berserkers is a power damage amulet in that it has every stat that buffs power damage (Power, Precision, Crit Damage). Valkyries is a hybrid amulet in that it gives 2 survivability stats and 2 damage stats. Celestial has never been used in a serious build in spvp to my knowledge, we’ll just sweep that one under the rug for the rest of this discussion.

The point I’m trying to make by providing all this information is that critical damage does not belong on the valkyries amulet and that it would be less limiting to all classes if it was made into the other damage stat, precision. Why?

In order to make use of the already very low weighted Critical Damage stat on the Valkyries amulet the class has to get a respectable amount of Crit Chance, which the amulet doesn’t provide. Because of this classes that want to use this Valkyries amulet and be a hybrid Power Tanky/DPS, just like most of the Condition classes are, must trait into precision. Even when they do they are only doing it to make use of the lowly weighted Crit Damage stat.

If the critical damage was changed into precision, not only would it be a buff to all power/tanky hybrids (of which we see none of besides warriors, but only because they are OP, they deal a ton of condi damage too because of all the might) because precision on pvp amulets is just more highly weighted, it would free up trait line use that classes using the Valkyries amulet normally wouldn’t use.

Some examples:

A Valkyries with precision on Elementalist could go
25 fire/15 water/30 Arcana, instead of
20 air/20 water/30 Arcana

Both would work greatly, and they could trait into the different trait lines based upon which utilities they wanted to run. Glyphs in Air for example.

A Warrior using a Valkyries with precision could go
20/0/20/0/30, instead of
0/20/20/0/30

In both of these examples if the ele/warrior doesn’t go 20 into their precision trait lines they make very little use of the 15% critical damage on the valkyries amulet. As precision though they have the freedom to spec into other trait lines. This will make people use a wider assortment of utilities also since different trait lines affect different utilities.

Heck now that I think about it, it would be great for every single class. Currently thieves rule as a damage roamer because they make use of the berserkers amulet better than anyone, and all the other classes don’t have the option to go hybrid because the amulets we are currently working with don’t support it well enough.

You get the idea. Power specs need a proper amulet to work with that gives them some survivability!

you want to create an even stronger war abomination.

Your suggestion is built around giving more survivability to eles tough forgetting about wars ( just think FOR A MOMENT at wars with pow-pre-tough ammu) or even medi guards.

I can sympathize with your suggestions Phanta. However, i’d just like to see a reduction of the current defensive traits instead of adding new ones.

I agree with you here phanta. I personally voted for knights as a new pvp amulet, as it is a pretty balanced hybrid amulet like valks, and definately gives up some defense for some offense compared to soldier’s.

Even further than what you suggest, I would just like more control over my amulet, even by just a bit. Something like 70%-30% for the amulet/jewel or 40%/30%/30% split amongst 3 pieces would be great for building more balanced specs. However, I do understand the concern that allowing more min-maxing could make the apex-predators even better. I personally just think it would help the fringe-builds a lot more.

That’s my biggest fear Blackbeard, I think this will only makes things worse, regardless of how good the intention.

That’s part of the point though. The only power tanky class we’ve ever seen work is warrior and that’s because they are grossly overpowered. We’ve never seen any other class run this because they’ve never had the proper amulet to run it.

It’s simple, introduce proper tanky amulet -> nerf warriors. Ele and Mesmer used valks during the power meta (a long time ago) and let me tell you the game did not feel tanky. Just because there is an actual tanky amulet that works doesn’t mean the game is tanky, that is just a fault of too many dodges/immunities/warriors, not the amulets.

And because ele and mesmer were allowed to run valks because of the lack of condis, we actually survived against thieves, which is exactly what we need rather than just instadieing to the thief that just turns his gaze our way. And we have to run berserkers on ele/mes because otherwise we don’t do enough damage to kill warriors.

I do not think it will make things worse unless warriors are left untouched.

Phantaram.4816:

That’s part of the point though. The only power tanky class we’ve ever seen work is warrior and that’s because they are grossly overpowered. We’ve never seen any other class run this because they’ve never had the proper amulet to run it.

It’s simple, introduce proper tanky amulet -> nerf warriors. Ele and Mesmer used valks during the power meta (a long time ago) and let me tell you the game did not feel tanky. Just because there is an actual tanky amulet that works doesn’t mean the game is tanky, that is just a fault of too many dodges/immunities/warriors, not the amulets.

And because ele and mesmer were allowed to run valks because of the lack of condis, we actually survived against thieves, which is exactly what we need rather than just instadieing to the thief that just turns his gaze our way. And we have to run berserkers on ele/mes because otherwise we don’t do enough damage to kill warriors.

I do not think it will make things worse unless warriors are left untouched.

Hmm, I don’t know about this one. I think Warrior wouldn’t have actually received half the buffs it did if it weren’t for the fact that Knights amulet (Pow/Prec/Tough) didn’t exist at the time; which relegated Warriors to using Soldier’s or Berserkers – both of which were too extreme on the one end of tankyness vs damage output.

With Warriors as they are now, however, with so much HPS from Healing Signet and overwhelming condition removal, the addition of Knights amulet could well spell disaster. Warriors already put 30 into Discipline for Burst Mastery – the sustained direct damage mitigation from Toughness on Knights amulet coupled with strong regeneration may well further entrench Warrior as the King of the Mountain. Hambow’s damage output would only increase; with 569 Precision behind it granting 31% crit chance before Traits and Sigils.

I think that the addition of Knights; whilst a worthy aspiration, needs to be considered very carefully right now. I for one, would love it on Engineer and Elementalist. But giving Warriors Knights – and with March 18, double Sigil procs every 5 seconds – may well begin the 5 Warrior meta.

MonMalthias.4763:

Phantaram.4816:

That’s part of the point though. The only power tanky class we’ve ever seen work is warrior and that’s because they are grossly overpowered. We’ve never seen any other class run this because they’ve never had the proper amulet to run it.

It’s simple, introduce proper tanky amulet -> nerf warriors. Ele and Mesmer used valks during the power meta (a long time ago) and let me tell you the game did not feel tanky. Just because there is an actual tanky amulet that works doesn’t mean the game is tanky, that is just a fault of too many dodges/immunities/warriors, not the amulets.

And because ele and mesmer were allowed to run valks because of the lack of condis, we actually survived against thieves, which is exactly what we need rather than just instadieing to the thief that just turns his gaze our way. And we have to run berserkers on ele/mes because otherwise we don’t do enough damage to kill warriors.

I do not think it will make things worse unless warriors are left untouched.

Hmm, I don’t know about this one. I think Warrior wouldn’t have actually received half the buffs it did if it weren’t for the fact that Knights amulet (Pow/Prec/Tough) didn’t exist at the time; which relegated Warriors to using Soldier’s or Berserkers – both of which were too extreme on the one end of tankyness vs damage output.

With Warriors as they are now, however, with so much HPS from Healing Signet and overwhelming condition removal, the addition of Knights amulet could well spell disaster. Warriors already put 30 into Discipline for Burst Mastery – the sustained direct damage mitigation from Toughness on Knights amulet coupled with strong regeneration may well further entrench Warrior as the King of the Mountain. Hambow’s damage output would only increase; with 569 Precision behind it granting 31% crit chance before Traits and Sigils.

I think that the addition of Knights; whilst a worthy aspiration, needs to be considered very carefully right now. I for one, would love it on Engineer and Elementalist. But giving Warriors Knights – and with March 18, double Sigil procs every 5 seconds – may well begin the 5 Warrior meta.

Your post makes it sound like we don’t agree but… I think we agree on everything.

Amulet + nerf to warrior = good addition.

Phantaram.1265:

MonMalthias.4763:

Phantaram.4816:

That’s part of the point though. The only power tanky class we’ve ever seen work is warrior and that’s because they are grossly overpowered. We’ve never seen any other class run this because they’ve never had the proper amulet to run it.

It’s simple, introduce proper tanky amulet -> nerf warriors. Ele and Mesmer used valks during the power meta (a long time ago) and let me tell you the game did not feel tanky. Just because there is an actual tanky amulet that works doesn’t mean the game is tanky, that is just a fault of too many dodges/immunities/warriors, not the amulets.

And because ele and mesmer were allowed to run valks because of the lack of condis, we actually survived against thieves, which is exactly what we need rather than just instadieing to the thief that just turns his gaze our way. And we have to run berserkers on ele/mes because otherwise we don’t do enough damage to kill warriors.

I do not think it will make things worse unless warriors are left untouched.

snip of own post

Your post makes it sound like we don’t agree but… I think we agree on everything.

Amulet + nerf to warrior = good addition.

I have several issues with this though.

• What nerfs should Warrior receive in order not to make them monstrous with Knights?
• In addition, would it not be simpler to not introduce Knights to head the potential problems off at the pass?
• How do you nerf a class currently as the king of the hill without making it trash again? Remember that Warriors were bottom of the pile for the longest time after the Quickness meta died.
• With Warrior’s keystone traits of Cleansing Ire, Adrenal health, Armoured attack (best Toughness % conversion in game) , Merciless Hammer and Dogged March all concentrated into Defense along with many other strong traits, how do you plan to nerf Defense without destroying Warrior?
• Do you also plan to nerf Burst Mastery as well? (Interaction with Cleansing Ire). If so, how do you plan on keeping it useful for Eviscerate, Killshot (lol) and Warriors that use Flurry (Condi Warriors, at least until the direct damage is buffed enough to be competitive)

• Will Knights be Power (major) Toughness, Precision (minor) or Toughness (Major), Power, Precision (minor) as it is in PVE?
• Will Knights replace Valks as it is right now? Or will Knights come in side by side with Valks?
• Will Barbarian be replaced by Knights? Or will Knights come in side by side with Barbarian? (Not saying that people actually use Barbarians, but hey, someone might)

Nothing new that 284 stats on amulet equals 15% cd, this creates a loss of 134 stats which isn’t fair at all against condition and bunker builds who maintain all their stats.

I would rather see those 134 stats moved to toughness, vitality or healing power.

I was hoping for Ferocity in sPvP since it would actually mean a slight increase in dmg afaik.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Nothing new that 284 stats on amulet equals 15% cd, this creates a loss of 134 stats which isn’t fair at all against condition and bunker builds who maintain all their stats.

I would rather see those 134 stats moved to toughness, vitality or healing power.

I was hoping for Ferocity in sPvP since it would actually mean a slight increase in dmg afaik.

Anything is better than the wasted stats! Only power specs have to deal with this like you said.

Perhaps careful removal of ~134 stats from the other amulets would be a good thing?

We could reduce some of the tankiness of the most-tanky amulets and even it back out a bit. However, I do like the idea of diminishing returns for zerk, meaning you give up a little bit extra if you really want to go all-in.

However, Arken, I do think that more amulet choices aren’t a bad thing. It just means that we need to fix some of the imbalanced tuning that currently perpetuates (cough…warriors….cough)

It’s true, more choices aren’t something outrageous to ask for. I just fear that this tanky meta to continue. Granted you could introduce something like this and balance appropriately and it could work out very well. I’m hoping this would be the case.

An overpowered profession, being already a problem by itself, should not be twice the problem by being an obstacle to any changes that the game needs. If anything, this is even more of an incentive for Anet to push warrior’s nerfs a bit harder (because, ironically, I’d argue that even a class like the mesmer is getting a bigger nerf out of the announced changes than the warrior itself).

DiogoSilva.7089:

An overpowered profession, being already a problem by itself, should not be twice the problem by being an obstacle to any changes that the game needs. If anything, this is even more of an incentive for Anet to push warrior’s nerfs a bit harder (because, ironically, I’d argue that even a class like the mesmer is getting a bigger nerf out of the announced changes than the warrior itself).

Very well said.

And I never even thought about comparing how much mesmer was being nerfed compared to warrior but you are probably right.

We don’t see the whole picture just yet though so I guess we’ll wait and see.

FUNCTIONAL REDESIGN OF PVP GEAR STAT DISTRIBUTION
As it stands, there is very little wiggle room for stat customization in sPVP. It’s nice that the armor does not have any gear stats because that keeps things simple, but bottle-necking the entirety of PvP stats into 2 items leaves very little stat expansion beyond full bunker or full glass (unless you’re running conditions in which case you get defensive stats for free because “balance”). Moreover, the two components that grant to gear stats in PvP aren’t even well balanced in how they individually contribute their stats. The amulet contributes roughly 87.56% of a player’s total gear stat in PvP while the jewel contributes roughly 12.44% of a player’s total gear stat respectively. This sort of set-up doesn’t allow for a lot of middle ground when it comes to player stats beyond traits in PvP.

PVP AMULET REDESIGN

• Superior amulet stats reduced from 798 to 265.
• Major amulet stats reduced from 569 to 190.
• Minor amulet stats reduced from 284 to 95.

PVP JEWEL REDESIGN

• Superior jewel stats reduced from 125 to 45.
• Major jewel stats reduced from 75 to 25.
• Minor jewel stats reduced from 45 to 15.

PVP GEAR ADDITIONS

• Players can now equip up to 2 rings in the empty ring slots in PvP.
• These rings share the same stats as the made-over amulets; each ring has an open upgrade slot for a jewel.

By expanding a player’s available gear stat contributors in PvP without really changing the total amount of gear stats granted, players will gain the ability to craft more balanced, middle-ground stat combinations without losing the ability to go full into glass or bunker. The additional slots will give players the ability to buffer glass cannon builds or increase critical chance and/or attack power of originally bunker-heavy builds. The meta-game would benefit from seeing new stat combinations contributing to originally one-dimensional builds.

The stats on the amulet and jewel are mostly correct based on the similar design of ANet’s PvE formula. The PvP amulet base is similar to armor and jewelry stats, which value 1% crit damage as 15 stat points. The jewel is similar to orbs from the overbudget exotic orbs in PvE which value 1% crit damage kitten stat points. For whatever reason, the conversion is a bit more harsh on the PvP items, but the general idea remains. When you combine the amulet and jewel, you get a value of 1% crit damage = 15.75 stat points. I would have expected it to be 15 even, but I’ll give that loss up to rounding down on each individual item. So yes, the amulet+jewel combo is under budget, but not by a lot. The “missing” stats would get you about 1% more crit chance if it was allocated to precision.

With the upcoming ferocity change, I would expect something closer to 12-13 stat points per 1% crit damage. If it followed the PvE rule, that would yield 24%-26% crit damage for the amulet+jewel. Or ANet may dump the excess stats into the healing or vitality stat on the PvP amulets.

But Phantaram’s second point is what should really be the focus. In order for a power-based damage hybrid build to succeed it needs precision far more than critical damage. However, most builds need to handicap themselves in order to get precision.

The precision line is very narrow in scope for many professions. That cuts out 300 possible precision (~14.3% crit chance). The only amulets with high power and precision are Berserker’s and Barbarian’s. The former makes you a glass cannon and practically all the toughness runes suck, so there’s no supplement. The latter is mediocre all-around. For precision runes the only good choice is Lyssa, which isn’t that good for long cooldown elites. Eagle is okay, but not spectacular. Both rune sets only add 165 precision (~7.9 % crit chance).

If players were able to customize stats in order to pick up power, precision, toughness, and vitality in the right quantities for their build, it would open a up a lot more options. Obviously full customization would be difficult (since you want to prevent healing power, toughness, vitality only combinations), but spreading the stats in the existing combinations over more items would definitely help, as well as adding a few missing combinations (PvE Knight prefix being a key one).

Would this cause balance issues? Yes, undoubtedly you’d see a few overpowered builds appear. But it also opens up many more builds overall. I would say that trade-off is worth it in the short term. In addition, with more stat customization, making tweaks to a handful of traits and skills won’t drive a build to extinction; the build could simply switch supplemental trait lines and end up with near with the same total stats. I would also expect the decline of insta-gib play if changes like these came along. If no one on the team drops in seconds to damage from one player, full glass cannon builds become a greater liability and more niche, leading to a slight decline in the pace of combat and the need for better cooldown use and coordination for kills.