Guild Wars 2

Backstab stealth builds usually had no drawbacks for missing a backstab. This was a pretty hot topic on /r/guildwars2.

Instead of just flat out revealing if you miss the backstab like /r/ suggested.

How about giving backstab a 3 second cooldown while being stealthed.

before people start complaining about burst/adrenaline having no risk, there is a risk with burst/adrenaline. It goes on CD for 8 second traited (off the top of my head).

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

Leave thieves alone.

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

why don’t we just replace thief spell bars with empty slots, make them unable to move, rename them into walking loot bag and call it a day?

they are not exactly best class atm, in any areas of the game…

Yet, Mesmers spamming invisibility while Phantasms blast away opponents isn’t being look at.

Backstab an issue? Try phantasms doing ~6-8k damage per attack while the Mesmer remains safely invisible.

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

lol…
:D I’ll be adding this one to the nerf wish list…

If a mod reads this, can you please move the wish list from thief forum to balance… after all, it’s for balance…

Thieves take some skill to use properly. Thieves don’t need anymore nerfs. Other classes are much more forgiving.

-A Guardian/Warrior Main.

Edit: P/D thief though….that’s a different story…

The only thing I can think of is to make revealed last longer. I doubt anet will ever put a cooldown on any thief weapon skill. Some sort of stealth debuff doesnt make sense.

Just to carry over one reddit suggestion I found interesting:
Missed stealth attacks remove stealth, but do not apply revealed.

i dun play a thief but i think stealth / backstab is fine as it is.

the drawback is if their victims survive the backstab and the victim proceed to stun lock the thief.

regarding warrior burst adrenaline the recharge time is 7 seconds if the warrior spends 30 trait points in the discipline trait line.

the tool tip which stats 8.75 seconds is wrong.
the recharge time is 7 seconds with 30 in discipline.

i am a warrior player mainly.
before various warrior buffs i played mesmer in sPvP.

though now i am trying out necromancer minion master.
staff / scepter + focus with settlers amulet and jewel.
0/0/30/30/10

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

well, maybe only against just the minority few thieves who do not have excellent latency (average 200ms – 400ms ping instead of 20ms – 100ms) and do not have jedi reflexes perhaps?

please do remember that not everyone have the same hand eye coordination motor skills and lightning fast reflexes.

so, i would like to rephrase that as “one does not simply stun lock a decently skilled thief” there you go.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

well, maybe only against just the minority few thieves who do not have excellent latency (average 200ms – 400ms ping instead of 20ms – 100ms) and do not have jedi reflexes perhaps?

please do remember that not everyone have the same hand eye coordination motor skills and lightning fast reflexes.

so, i would like to rephrase that as “one does not simply stun lock a decently skilled thief” there you go.

But one can simply cry for nerf and receive it.

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

Thieves don’t just become stealthed for free. If you want to enter stealth, it has a cost, and it can be countered (save blinding powder). Either dodging C&D or stopping a bp→hs will kitten up a thief’s ini. Less ini=‘s less damage/defence capabilities. What some players seem to want is a way to stop them from entering stealth and a way to remove them from stealth after… that’s not balanced.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

well, maybe only against just the minority few thieves who do not have excellent latency (average 200ms – 400ms ping instead of 20ms – 100ms) and do not have jedi reflexes perhaps?

please do remember that not everyone have the same hand eye coordination motor skills and lightning fast reflexes.

so, i would like to rephrase that as “one does not simply stun lock a decently skilled thief” there you go.

1 move destroys all chances of stunlocking a thief…Shadowstep. You don’t even need fast reflexes for it. You activate the skill, choose your target area, get sent there. They try to stunlock you again within 10 seconds, you use the move again to teleport back, destroying their stunlocking again. By that time, whatever move you can use to stealth yourself will come off cooldown and you use it.

begin sarcasm

NUH UHNH! You gotta get in melee! Theres plenty of risk right there to someone blindly swinging into the air with you not being removed from stealth! L2P BRAH

end sarcasm

RyuDragnier.9476:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

well, maybe only against just the minority few thieves who do not have excellent latency (average 200ms – 400ms ping instead of 20ms – 100ms) and do not have jedi reflexes perhaps?

please do remember that not everyone have the same hand eye coordination motor skills and lightning fast reflexes.

so, i would like to rephrase that as “one does not simply stun lock a decently skilled thief” there you go.

1 move destroys all chances of stunlocking a thief…Shadowstep. You don’t even need fast reflexes for it. You activate the skill, choose your target area, get sent there. They try to stunlock you again within 10 seconds, you use the move again to teleport back, destroying their stunlocking again. By that time, whatever move you can use to stealth yourself will come off cooldown and you use it.

but the shadowstep utility skill has a 50 seconds recharge timer?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep

What backstab needs is a huge reduction in damage. The 10% crit dmg reduction incoming isn’t enough. Thieves need 25% damage reduction to get them in the realm of being realistically balanced. With mobility and stealth, Thieves should be hitting the lightest, not the hardest.

The class has been the golden child of the Devs since launch and it still shows.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

well, maybe only against just the minority few thieves who do not have excellent latency (average 200ms – 400ms ping instead of 20ms – 100ms) and do not have jedi reflexes perhaps?

please do remember that not everyone have the same hand eye coordination motor skills and lightning fast reflexes.

so, i would like to rephrase that as “one does not simply stun lock a decently skilled thief” there you go.

1 move destroys all chances of stunlocking a thief…Shadowstep. You don’t even need fast reflexes for it. You activate the skill, choose your target area, get sent there. They try to stunlock you again within 10 seconds, you use the move again to teleport back, destroying their stunlocking again. By that time, whatever move you can use to stealth yourself will come off cooldown and you use it.

but the shadowstep utility skill has a 50 seconds recharge timer?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep

Shadowstep after being used once will become Shadow Return for 10 seconds. If it’s used within those 10 seconds, it’ll send you back to your original position you were at before you used it. So it’s technically a double teleport. The first can be used even while stunned but doesn’t remove it, the 2nd can be used while stunned and removes up to 3 conditions. If you’re a D/P thief, that’s enough time to use Black Powder and then Heartseeker into stealth.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

well, maybe only against just the minority few thieves who do not have excellent latency (average 200ms – 400ms ping instead of 20ms – 100ms) and do not have jedi reflexes perhaps?

please do remember that not everyone have the same hand eye coordination motor skills and lightning fast reflexes.

so, i would like to rephrase that as “one does not simply stun lock a decently skilled thief” there you go.

1 move destroys all chances of stunlocking a thief…Shadowstep. You don’t even need fast reflexes for it. You activate the skill, choose your target area, get sent there. They try to stunlock you again within 10 seconds, you use the move again to teleport back, destroying their stunlocking again. By that time, whatever move you can use to stealth yourself will come off cooldown and you use it.

but the shadowstep utility skill has a 50 seconds recharge timer?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep

Shadowstep after being used once will become Shadow Return for 10 seconds. If it’s used within those 10 seconds, it’ll send you back to your original position you were at before you used it. So it’s technically a double teleport. The first can be used even while stunned but doesn’t remove it, the 2nd can be used while stunned and removes up to 3 conditions. If you’re a D/P thief, that’s enough time to use Black Powder and then Heartseeker into stealth.

ah, i see. thanks for sharing that. i do not know all these stuff since i do not play a thief myself.

but after all that, it will be about around 30 – 40 seconds before the thief can use shadowstep again yes?

Getting into stealth is too easy across the board.
Getting out of a fight even when there are huge numbers looking for you is too easy.

Stealth, in general, doesn’t need to be nerfed just the ability to go too far with it. Shorten timers for mesmers. Limit Veil to 5. Make a thief have more situations where they can’t stealth mid-fight to escape (to attack is fine). Generally, create a bit more balance where stealth assists in combat but not as much in avoiding large numbers of people hunting.

Correct, though at that time the thief may decide the risk isn’t worth it and disengage.

DeWolfe.2174:

What backstab needs is a huge reduction in damage. The 10% crit dmg reduction incoming isn’t enough. Thieves need 25% damage reduction to get them in the realm of being realistically balanced. With mobility and stealth, Thieves should be hitting the lightest, not the hardest.

The class has been the golden child of the Devs since launch and it still shows.

Golden child of the Devs?

The fact that theifs recieve nerfs on every single update (yes some buffs are nerfs in disguise) rings a bell?

The fact that none of the balance team and dev mains a theif tells you something?

The fact that the theif gameplay vid last shown have the devs laughing hard at their theif dying countless times speaks to you?

The fact they said specifically that warriors are so op now basically everyone should roll one get in you thick skull?

golden child? I think you are complaining about the wrong class

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

Of which 3 is regenerated over the duration of the Stealth (more with traits) and you got a decent damage-hit out of it, even if Backstab doesnt land.

I wouldnt call it wasted, not by a long shot. More like, not getting the absolute optimal use out of it. In which case, welcome to Everybody Else.

I am assuming this is ALL from a WvW perspective here? Because the drawback/risk in sPvP would be if you went in for a backstab on point, you would take the risk of dying from aoe damage. Maybe in a different circumstance, you are in a 1v1 with a warrior (pretty common nowadays) if you go in for a backstab you can run the risk of getting hit by an arcing arrow. Any decent warrior that knows how to predict stealth will see this coming and will use arcing arrow at his feet.

There is definitely a “risk”, there are definitely “drawbacks” just because reddit says something doesn’t make an idea worth talking about or a good idea that will provoke good or smart play, on both ends.

The risk/ drawback of backstab is that you first have to gain stealth and then position yourself to side/back of your opponent. In order to gain stealth you (as a D/D thief) have to land CnD which costs 50% initiative. CnD can be countered by dodge, block, aegis, blind and stuff like that. Thieves only got one chance to land CnD, otherwise ini is gone and you have to pop utilities.

So backstab is counterable by preventing the thief to gain stealth.

BTW: Plenty of skills in this game deal way higher damage than backstab, e.g. Churning Earth, Kill Shot or Arcing Arrow. While Backstab is single target, those skills can hit up to 5 enemies for huge amounts of damage.

My thief got hit for 15k Churning Earth and for 10k Arcing Arrow. The highest Backstab I got hit was 9k. Nuff said.

Terrahero.9358:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

Of which 3 is regenerated over the duration of the Stealth (more with traits) and you got a decent damage-hit out of it, even if Backstab doesnt land.

I wouldnt call it wasted, not by a long shot. More like, not getting the absolute optimal use out of it. In which case, welcome to Everybody Else.

You lose the 5 ini from the missed c&d. 3 ini is if you wait the full time in stealth… which would make your burst less compact… and your target may have changed orientation… and has had longer time to react. A “decent” c&d hit every few seconds shouldn’t be enough to take anyone down.

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

Another issue with stealth. Faild missed block or counterd. Stealth attacks should revival. The thief.

alamore.1974:

Another issue with stealth. Faild missed block or counterd. Stealth attacks should revival. The thief.

Such a common and redic request.

Aberrant.6749:

Thieves don’t just become stealthed for free. If you want to enter stealth, it has a cost, and it can be countered (save blinding powder). Either dodging C&D or stopping a bp->hs will kitten up a thief’s ini. Less ini=‘s less damage/defence capabilities. What some players seem to want is a way to stop them from entering stealth and a way to remove them from stealth after… that’s not balanced.

Landing a proper backstab is a hard thing to do against a skilled opponent. Sometimes they will simply damage you harder with AA or sort of close range abilities than you could damage them with a backstab, while trying to sneak behind them.

Revealing a thief after avoiding BS by evade,blind or block is just silly. There are already many ways to counter a backstab attempt.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okay, that’s just a hilarious mindset Deimos. One does not simply stun lock a thief.

He is a warrior main, he doesn’t know better.

Aberrant.6749:

alamore.1974:

Another issue with stealth. Faild missed block or counterd. Stealth attacks should revival. The thief.

Such a common and redic request.

Aberrant.6749:

Thieves don’t just become stealthed for free. If you want to enter stealth, it has a cost, and it can be countered (save blinding powder). Either dodging C&D or stopping a bp->hs will kitten up a thief’s ini. Less ini=‘s less damage/defence capabilities. What some players seem to want is a way to stop them from entering stealth and a way to remove them from stealth after… that’s not balanced.

I play a thief. I know how to.cut in and out of stealth. And i know that thief takes skill to play effectively. And i have no request to stop thieves from entering stealth and i dont want ways to remove stealth. But if a stealth attack should fail thats a diffrent story. Sneak up behind me and miss punching me in the back of the head ima whirl around a knock u out.

The balance of stealth classes is a melee version of some sorcerers in RPG settings:

• They kill the first target, virtually without resistance.
• They are quickly killed afterwards, because they’re exposed.

As such stealth characters usually rely on preying on the weak, wounded, retreating or the lone reinforcements.

They need to win those fights for their balance to work.

A thief-like character, in a fantasy RPG setting, revolves around being, well, overpowered in 1v1. That’s part of why stealth is problematic as a whole in multiplayer, because we expect 1v1 to be balanced (though why we do I’ll never quite understand, but maybe I grew up with the wrong RPGs for this, starting with M59, Eq1 and then DAoC. The letter never ever even tried to be balanced 1v1, because it deterred from the actual balance goal of zerg-vs-zerg and keep-based combat).

It can work, but then thieves will end up in a very unstable balance spot.

alamore.1974:

Aberrant.6749:

alamore.1974:

Another issue with stealth. Faild missed block or counterd. Stealth attacks should revival. The thief.

Such a common and redic request.

Aberrant.6749:

Thieves don’t just become stealthed for free. If you want to enter stealth, it has a cost, and it can be countered (save blinding powder). Either dodging C&D or stopping a bp->hs will kitten up a thief’s ini. Less ini=‘s less damage/defence capabilities. What some players seem to want is a way to stop them from entering stealth and a way to remove them from stealth after… that’s not balanced.

I play a thief. I know how to.cut in and out of stealth. And i know that thief takes skill to play effectively. And i have no request to stop thieves from entering stealth and i dont want ways to remove stealth. But if a stealth attack should fail thats a diffrent story. Sneak up behind me and miss punching me in the back of the head ima whirl around a knock u out.

But you had an opportunity to stomp the requirements for the stealth attack to even occur in the first place.

You’re basically asking to allow blocks/blinds/whatevers to counter the setup and the resulting attack afterwards (by revealing the thief if his stealth attack doesn’t deal damage on block/blind/whatever). That’s far too easy to counter at that point especially considering the other negative repercussions of not successfully gaining stealth in the first place (ini/utility cd). It totally wrecks that balance. Just as an example… no thief would ever be able to kill a non-afk guardian ever again.

In gw2 you currently can whirl around and knock out a thief after an unsuccessful backstab. You know where he is despite not visibly being there. If he still attacks you when you whirl around, you take far less damage. Less pressure on you =‘s less need to recover =’s you have more time to just wail on him and put him on the defensive.

Noliver.1475:

DeWolfe.2174:

What backstab needs is a huge reduction in damage. The 10% crit dmg reduction incoming isn’t enough. Thieves need 25% damage reduction to get them in the realm of being realistically balanced. With mobility and stealth, Thieves should be hitting the lightest, not the hardest.

The class has been the golden child of the Devs since launch and it still shows.

Golden child of the Devs?

The fact that theifs recieve nerfs on every single update (yes some buffs are nerfs in disguise) rings a bell?

The fact that none of the balance team and dev mains a theif tells you something?

The fact that the theif gameplay vid last shown have the devs laughing hard at their theif dying countless times speaks to you?

The fact they said specifically that warriors are so op now basically everyone should roll one get in you thick skull?

golden child? I think you are complaining about the wrong class

Sounds like why i quit playing my ranger, and now spend the most time on warrior/guard/mesmer… I fear for my ele, thing is medeocre, means “buffs” (nerfs) until it takes the same seat as my ranger are soon to follow T-T

To add something to the discussion, Thieves get 2 things… stealth, and teleports/stun breaks… and the only way they can be most effective is to abuse both these mechanics to the absolute max… their actual dps isnt quite what it might seem because the good ones also have just enough initiative in store to stun/daze your heal/escape attempt and that’s it. Best way to get rid some wvw ganker? live through his first spike and dont die for about 15 seconds, after which point he is spent and has to go away long enough for you to do the same.

pve thief? sorry…stealth me through the entire dungeon or roll something else cause this class’s other mechanics are not nearly so pve friendly, which also needs to be fixed imo

Well, revealing thief on missed backstabs would probably be fair. I don’t think thieves are particularly OP, but you shouldn’t be spamming those things to begin with. Thieves are supposed to be punished for bad play, so why not?

Blocking not causing revealed honestly is a little bit silly. The only reason it doesn’t is the fact they coded stealth to be interrupted when dealing damage and it never was important enough to be fixed.

@OP: If there is no risk to the thief, then it is because of a lack of skill of the opposing player.

Here is a hint for all your noobs out there. AOE is the bane of backstab thieves. It is why Engi > thief in a 1v1 scenario.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Yet, Mesmers spamming invisibility while Phantasms blast away opponents isn’t being look at.

Backstab an issue? Try phantasms doing ~6-8k damage per attack while the Mesmer remains safely invisible.

Are you sure that 6-8k damage per attack was from the mesmer phantasm. Seems a bit high.

Reveal on miss/block would actually kill all stealth builds. Every profession with high access to aegis would be immun to stealth attacks.

Would be the same as warriors loosing all adrenaline when a burst skill miss. Its ridiculous.

I don’t know. I’ve found C&D to be the difficult attack to land not the back stab. I agree that P/D is way cheese but at least with D/D you need to stay on top of your target to maintain stealth.

Reveal on miss/block would be a bad idea. I would suggest maybe simply having Backstab go on a short cooldown (maybe 5 seconds) if it fails to connect. This creates some risk without resorting to reveal mechanisms (which would nullify the backstab anyways).

With most sources of stealth lasting ~3-4 seconds depending on traits, giving backstab a 5 second cd would still force you out of stealth with no backstabs landed. Wouldn’t be that much of a difference.

RyuDragnier.9476:

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

Repeating a skill as many times as the game mechanics allow it to because of purposeful design is not abusing a skill. There is no additional “debuff” needed other than “revealed” and you do not need to be “punished” for normal combat tactics of a backstab build.

What you’re saying, if logical should translate to:

Every time a necro pops lich form and hits 1,1,1,1,1, grasping claws damage should go down on each use.

Every time a warrior uses a movement skill to run away, the range should go down.

Every time a mesmer stealths, follow the same proposition above for thief.

Every time an engineer throws grenades they do less damage and don’t go as far.

I could go on.

People who complain about current thieves have 2 things in common. They’ve never played thief and have never taken the time to learn how to counter thieves.

I leveled a thief up and play him occasionally when balance patches come out just to keep current on them.

IMO thief is one of the worst classes in Gw2 generally speaking. Good thieves have to work super hard at getting that good.

If you think thief is so easy to play go play one. Thief is one of the highest skillcap classes in Gw2 and they deserve to get some kills for practicing that much.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

RyuDragnier.9476:

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

Repeating a skill as many times as the game mechanics allow it to because of purposeful design is not abusing a skill. There is no additional “debuff” needed other than “revealed” and you do not need to be “punished” for normal combat tactics of a backstab build.

What you’re saying, if logical should translate to:

Every time a necro pops lich form and hits 1,1,1,1,1, grasping claws damage should go down on each use.

Every time a warrior uses a movement skill to run away, the range should go down.

Every time a mesmer stealths, follow the same proposition above for thief.

Every time an engineer throws grenades they do less damage and don’t go as far.

I could go on.

Here’s the thing, the reason why I suggest this for stealth is because of how easy it is to just spam stealth in combat. I’ve played the build before, it’s possible to go into stealth just under 20 times a minute. If you assume that there’s a backstab with each stealth, that’s around 15 backstabs a minute. NO class should be able to spam a burst move that much in this game.

aspirine.6852:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Yet, Mesmers spamming invisibility while Phantasms blast away opponents isn’t being look at.

Backstab an issue? Try phantasms doing ~6-8k damage per attack while the Mesmer remains safely invisible.

Are you sure that 6-8k damage per attack was from the mesmer phantasm. Seems a bit high.

I’m also wondering about that because I can’t recall my phantasms reaching such numbers and they have a tendency to die when getting hit by a wet noodle. But maybe I was paying more attention to that invisible 16k CnD+Backstab macro that downs me in 0.5s

RyuDragnier.9476:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

RyuDragnier.9476:

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

Repeating a skill as many times as the game mechanics allow it to because of purposeful design is not abusing a skill. There is no additional “debuff” needed other than “revealed” and you do not need to be “punished” for normal combat tactics of a backstab build.

What you’re saying, if logical should translate to:

Every time a necro pops lich form and hits 1,1,1,1,1, grasping claws damage should go down on each use.

Every time a warrior uses a movement skill to run away, the range should go down.

Every time a mesmer stealths, follow the same proposition above for thief.

Every time an engineer throws grenades they do less damage and don’t go as far.

I could go on.

Here’s the thing, the reason why I suggest this for stealth is because of how easy it is to just spam stealth in combat. I’ve played the build before, it’s possible to go into stealth just under 20 times a minute. If you assume that there’s a backstab with each stealth, that’s around 15 backstabs a minute. NO class should be able to spam a burst move that much in this game.

Are you standing still?

I mean how a thief could ever get more than 2 backstabs off a fight is beyond me. That would imply his target is AFK or is so new to the game they’re still double clicking dodgeing or something.

So you’re example is that a thief can backstab 15 times in a minute against a target dummy?

I’m just trying to clarify here how a thief could possibly back stab that much unless they’re fighting a target dummy.

Is useing a target dummy really the best example? I mean I could just as easily compare any class against that if the target is brain dead target dummy.

If a thief is able to get 15 backstabs against a player in 60 seconds that would have to imply that the theifs target either just installed the game this week or they’re just naturally bad at games.

Aveneo.2068:

aspirine.6852:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Yet, Mesmers spamming invisibility while Phantasms blast away opponents isn’t being look at.

Backstab an issue? Try phantasms doing ~6-8k damage per attack while the Mesmer remains safely invisible.

Are you sure that 6-8k damage per attack was from the mesmer phantasm. Seems a bit high.

I’m also wondering about that because I can’t recall my phantasms reaching such numbers and they have a tendency to die when getting hit by a wet noodle. But maybe I was paying more attention to that invisible 16k CnD+Backstab macro that downs me in 0.5s

My Zerker phant will hit for about 5.5k without any might. With might I often see 7k not to mention the bouncing blade and auto attack in there too.