Guild Wars 2

You know what the major difference between a DPS focused Medi Guard and a DPS Warrior? There are many but the major one is that the Medi Guard’s gap closer, Judge’s Intervention, is reliable. You can teleport to your target in the middle of using a skill like Binding Blade/Whirling Wrath or Ring of Warding/Mighty Blow, making normally difficult to land skills more reliable.

Now let’s compare this to a DPS Warrior, something which honestly isn’t that viable these days. A big problem is Bull’s Charge. It has a very high failure rate for many players. I’ve avoided it by simply walking towards the player using it, which causes it to either overshoot or they knock you down but are facing the wrong way to follow up before you recover. But what if BC was a “teleport” like JI? It would solve many issues such as:

• Being able to reliably land highly telegraphed attacks like 100b and Skull Crack.

• It would be unaffected by movement impairing conditions.

• Here’s something for those who dislike mobility Wars, it would require a target, meaning that it can’t be used as easily to run away. Sure, in WvW you could still target a bunny or something, but that applies to and skill that teleport.

Now, for thematic purposes the Warrior using the skill would need to leave some sort of after image, so it looks like they just moved incredibly fast. We have to keep some class distinction. Part of me thinks that it would need some sort of tell but really JI doesn’t and I don’t think many view it as being OP because of it. Since it would be used to combo something with a big telegraph and has a fairly long CD and if you have a stun break then it would do that much to you anyways I think it might be fair for it to be instant. While I understand you can’t directly compare too different skills from different classes the skills are VERY similar in what role they play, however one works and one doesn’t.

While I’m on this topic, Guardian has another skill that preforms better than a Warrior skill of a similar function, Leap of Faith. Die to how the skill is designed, it connects much more reliably than the Warrior skill Rush. By the time you reach a target with Rush and then stand in place to begin the attack they have already moved away. It’s no wonder it’s often saved to run away because as a gap closer it totally fails. Leap of Faith is AoE and the attack animation is fluid and doesn’t force you to stand still to attack after you reach your target. I personally would gladly accept some form of Ride the Lightning treatment where if you don’t connect you get a greater CD (but not double, Warrior has less skills than Ele) if in return it moved faster and was AoE like LoF. The only reason for the AoE is that is what appears to make LoF so reliable is that it has a sort of cone rather than a straight line.

Changes like these would make DPS focused double melee Warriors a bit less garbage because when your combo has such a huge CD it should not fail just because the game didn’t let it connect.

EDIT: I’ve clarified my post, please look here

EDIT 2 : I’m getting tired of repeating myself, the skill will feel very similar to how it does currently. The power of the skill should remain the same, all this change will do is make it hit when it’s supposed to with higher frequency.

What if Bull’s Charge was a “Teleport?”

Then warriors would be calling for targets when roaming between points and it’d be on every warrior bar, and greatswords would probably be meta, and warriors would potentially replace thieves.

Lolno

Shockwave.1230:

What if Bull’s Charge was a “Teleport?”

Then warriors would be calling for targets when roaming between points and it’d be on every warrior bar, and greatswords would probably be meta, and warriors would potentially replace thieves.

• There would have to be a target there, teleports like JI require a target.

• The disengaging power would be less so they could just stealth away like a Thief

• Hammer would still be better

• LB would still be better

• It would make DPS War “playable” and that’s about it. Medi guard will still have better sutain, Thieves better disengage/burst/boon stealing.

I could see this working. It might actually make the skill better since it doesn’t work right now anyway.

No! I don’t want Bullcharge to be a teleport. It’s one of my favorite moves in the game. I like the animation. I like that feeling of charging at my opponent at high speed. So I say no to the teleport idea. I just want it to work right. That is all.

Would be OP, unless i misunderstood and you want to completely change the skill (a teleport without KD, but you would have to decrease the CD to make it decent)

But they should make it like the leap on ranger greatsword ( a rush followed by an attack with a small leap attached to it at the end). It would make the skill much less buggy and far easier to use. Same goes for Rush.
It’s not like it is impossible to do, since rangers have it. I don’t know why they never did it.

Doon.2364:

No! I don’t want Bullcharge to be a teleport. It’s one of my favorite moves in the game. I like the animation. I like that feeling of charging at my opponent at high speed. So I say no to the teleport idea. I just want it to work right. That is all.

I don’t think it ever will work with the current system. Even before it was totally broken it was never really reliable in the first place. With how little (possibly no) “netcode” this game has if either you or your target is lagging the skill will either send you flying past, one of you will teleport after it connects (I’ve had friends see this happen on numerous occasions, you hit them and then suddenly one of you just pops up in a different spot a few feet away out of range), or any other number of crazy things.

I don’t see how a 2 second KD on a 45 second knockdown that reliably hits would be any more OP than a skill that allows you to start an attack animation and then instantly appear next to your opponent and set them on fire (which when traited deals extra damage) like JI. Making it like Swoop doesn’t help much either since that’s another gap closer that isn’t that reliable either. The difference is that the CD isn’t 45 seconds can you could argue that it’s more for creating distance than attacking. Frenzy will still not be that amazing because of the nerfs it received and it’s 60 second CD. Not using frenzy means you only hit with a little over half of 100bs recently nerfed hits. If they open up with it, you probably have your stun break still. If they force you to use it first, they outplayed you.

Also, while the aesthetics of the skill are nice, I will always prioritize functionality over looks. A skill that looks good but hasn’t worked properly for 2 years might as well not exist. Even in the old days it only hit more reliably because players didn’t know how to dodge yet. It not being reliable means that double melee isn’t viable unless you’re a Shouts + Warhorn with Hammer or using overpriced food. In PvP…when was the last time you felt threatened by a War w/o a bow?

If ANet ever change the way warriors mobility works, I would drop the warrior class. I used to run a Guardian when I started this game, never was a fan of teleporting. If they change warriors to do the same thing, I might as well go back to my guardian who has a lot more utilities. Style is equally as important as function.. All professions should have their distinct style of play.

My solution for bullcharge would be to increase the knockdown to 3 1/2 seconds since it’s not very reliable. With an extra second and half u can at least make up the gap difference if you over shoot.

You know another difference between guardians and warriors.

1: Warriors have very good potential for staying on a target that tries to kite due to multiple abilities that knock down, stun, cripple & immobilize. (guardians have 1 knowck down on a long CD and a couple immobilizes all on moderate CD’s)

2: Warriors have almost twice the base health. (this forces guardians to gear for more health in PvP or be downed extremely fast)

3: Many warrior attacks scale much much better with power

4: Warriors have a very effective condition based build (guardian burn builds stack damage fast but are very easy to counter with cleanses)

5: Warriors have decent ranged potential on moving targets (try using guardian scepter on a target 600+ units away while they strafe back and forth)

You want your gap closers to be faster ? All right.

The guardian community would like some of these issues looked at.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

You know another difference between guardians and warriors.

1: Warriors have very good potential for staying on a target that tries to kite due to multiple abilities that knock down, stun, cripple & immobilize. (guardians have 1 knowck down on a long CD and a couple immobilizes all on moderate CD’s)

2: Warriors have almost twice the base health. (this forces guardians to gear for more health in PvP or be downed extremely fast)

3: Many warrior attacks scale much much better with power

4: Warriors have a very effective condition based build (guardian burn builds stack damage fast but are very easy to counter with cleanses)

5: Warriors have decent ranged potential on moving targets (try using guardian scepter on a target 600+ units away while they strafe back and forth)

You want your gap closers to be faster ? All right.

The guardian community would like some of these issues looked at.

What’s funny is a lot of warriors would use those gap closing skills to run away from a triple med guardian. lol

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve avoided it by simply walking towards the player using it, which causes it to either overshoot or they knock you down but are facing the wrong way to follow up before you recover.

this happens when a player is not using autotarget and does not have you selected. of course it goes straight through you, he isnt “trying” to hit you. if he wants to “try” to hit you, he needs to click on you first, or its just going to be a 1200 range dash with a melee single target aoe at the end.

thats why its perceived as unreliable. and its an l2p issue.

judges intervention circumvents this play pattern by requiring a target to be used.

The problem with this is that BR is not only a gap closer but also knocks down your opponent for two seconds. Doing that with absolute certainty that it would hit is a bad thing IMO, and would only ensure further warrior nerfing.

Honestly, just make it work as it should.

u would have the same bugs as the thieves steal when u get sent back to where u started lol

insanemaniac.2456:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve avoided it by simply walking towards the player using it, which causes it to either overshoot or they knock you down but are facing the wrong way to follow up before you recover.

this happens when a player is not using autotarget and does not have you selected. of course it goes straight through you, he isnt “trying” to hit you. if he wants to “try” to hit you, he needs to click on you first, or its just going to be a 1200 range dash with a melee single target aoe at the end.

thats why its perceived as unreliable. and its an l2p issue.

judges intervention circumvents this play pattern by requiring a target to be used.

No. You are completely wrong. I have experienced this multiple times and Burr King is correct. I have used Bulls Rush and it DOES overshoot your target even when locked on. It is not a “L2P” Issue it is an issue with the skill not tracking.

bobomb.5209:

insanemaniac.2456:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve avoided it by simply walking towards the player using it, which causes it to either overshoot or they knock you down but are facing the wrong way to follow up before you recover.

this happens when a player is not using autotarget and does not have you selected. of course it goes straight through you, he isnt “trying” to hit you. if he wants to “try” to hit you, he needs to click on you first, or its just going to be a 1200 range dash with a melee single target aoe at the end.

thats why its perceived as unreliable. and its an l2p issue.

judges intervention circumvents this play pattern by requiring a target to be used.

No. You are completely wrong. I have experienced this multiple times and Burr King is correct. I have used Bulls Rush and it DOES overshoot your target even when locked on. It is not a “L2P” Issue it is an issue with the skill not tracking.

Correct, I always have a target selected. I have see 3 main ways that BC often fails:

• Target is only running in any direction, not evading or doing any action to avoid the attack. BS misses and you move past them or just stop moving once you reach them.

• You connect, but go past your target and by the time you can turn around and take advantage they are already standing.

• You connect, and it initially looks like everything is fine, then either you or your target teleport a few feet away. Probably due to lag, but what makes it bad is that it can apparently be affected by the other person lagging. If it was just on your side it would still be a pain but it’s still “on you.” The fact that you can’t control that someone else is lagging makes it a nightmare.

Considering all of the gap closers in this game don’t work that well It’s just a sad fact that making BC “just work” is unlikely to happen. It’s been 2 years and it has only gotten worse but even at its best it wasn’t great. I want it to work as intended too but if that’s impossible then I’d rather have it be a modified version of something that does.

If it became a teleport, we would simply be complaining about how it suffers from bugs that teleport skills share, insteadof ccomplain in about how it has the current bugs that all ground based movements share.

A knockdown on a teleport might be a little bit too much. I like the idea of changing BC into something like swoop though. I don’t know if it’s the leap, but swoop is usually pretty accurate. Fixing the reliability of BC while still leaving the skill intact is the best solution.

Oh and this. If you connect BC and are facing the wrong direction, you don’t actually have to manually turn yourself around. Just hit the skill you want to use (100b, etc) and you’ll automatically turn towards the target as long as you’re not holding any movement keys.

I can confirm that yes – the skill – even when used properly with a target selected and all that good stuff is broken and does not connect to its target in most cases.

Also from general experience teleport skills are more reliable than the current in game version of BC.

The whole premise that warriors are build on is they have the most brutal attacks going (and lots of them) but that they are hard to land. Giving warriors a pretty fool proof way to making these attacks land is a terrible idea.

That said though, I can understand your second point about Rush.. It is a really poorly done leap which does glitch all the time.. so yes, they should take a look at that (probably the easiest fix to to make is a slightly shorter leap with a much fast cast time).

You actually mean that the fact that bull’s charge doesn’t hit anything is now a class feature or mechanic?

The skills are broken. Both Rush and BC are broken in the extreme as of last patch.

Normally I wouldn’t have agreed with making them work as teleport skills but guess what: In 2 years of patching the game Anet has proven its capacity to fix these skills and make them connect reliably. And by that I mean they’ve completely failed to do so and it’s been 2 years with broken skills.

So yes – a more extreme solution might be useful since it might bypass a problem the devs obviously can’t or won’t fix.

Warrior doesnt seem to be the kind of class that teleports.

All that’s needed is for the skills, as they are, to actually work.

And for the community QQ to be turned down.

I’m sorry but WTF is going on here!?

This skill is not broken… it obviously fails from time to time but are we acting like this skill NEVER lands? It lands for me way more than 50% of the time

Lag/Connectivity/Terrain issues are the main culprit for this skill not landing they need to change the animation to be more of a leap instead of a dash – I bet it lands way more often this way like sword #2 does

But seriously.. stop the BS I only play warrior with GS and Bulls Charge – I literally never play warrior without it and I do pretty well

Pro Tip : Use the skill within 3-600 units and it lands

Someone will come in here and say that I am full of crap – This warrior is much better than me and he gets it done with bulls charge + GS

I hope you do realize warriors aren’t magic users, so they will never add teleportation to the class mechanics.

Harper.4173:

Also from general experience teleport skills are more reliable than the current in game version of BC.

Dunno if I agree with this. Have you tried thief recently on anything other than flat ground? Using a blink from uneven ground honestly feels less reliable and more punishing when it fails than BC missing, since it wastes effects/timers and doesn’t actually move you at all.

If it was a teleport then you’d get stuck on a small rock or other tiny obstacle like the other teleports in game

witcher.3197:

I hope you do realize warriors aren’t magic users, so they will never add teleportation to the class mechanics.

As I said in my post it will only be a teleport as far as mechanics are concerned. As far for looks you could just speed up the current BC and make it look like you became the flash and leave behind a speed trail.

As for those doubting the reliability of teleports, I’m only focused on Judge’s Intervention, which for me only fails if you’re not on the same elevation and I think this was intentional.

BurrTheKing.8571:

witcher.3197:

I hope you do realize warriors aren’t magic users, so they will never add teleportation to the class mechanics.

As I said in my post it will only be a teleport as far as mechanics are concerned. As far for looks you could just speed up the current BC and make it look like you became the flash and leave behind a speed trail.

As for those doubting the reliability of teleports, I’m only focused on Judge’s Intervention, which for me only fails if you’re not on the same elevation and I think this was intentional.

That animation sounds awesome. I would totally make a character looking like Flash to add to my collection. Can already hear the themesong lol.

Still, KD on a teleport is a bad idea.

Make it work like it should. I also like the Leap idea, but that is not going to happen.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Warrior doesnt seem to be the kind of class that teleports.

All that’s needed is for the skills, as they are, to actually work.

And for the community QQ to be turned down.

Sure – that’s fair and true but do you honestly believe the devs can make the skills actually work?

It’s been 2 years – I have ZERO trust that they’ll fix these skills by now.

No. Warriors need a nerf to mobility, not a buff.

Jackums.3496:

No. Warriors need a nerf to mobility, not a buff.

This response is incredible.

Cygnus.6903:

Still, KD on a teleport is a bad idea.

Make it work like it should. I also like the Leap idea, but that is not going to happen.

Indeed, the problem with a KD on a teleport skill is that there’s no counter play. Though you can link banish and judge’s intervention together, it’s not quite the same.

With BC, even though it’s probably going to miss on it’s own you still have the option to waste a dodge. There’s counter play available. I agree that it probably won’t happen, but the ‘swoop like’ leap does seem to keep the counter play intact while making the skill more viable.

1) Warriors aren’t magical. They don’t, can’t and never will teleport.

2) BC works fine. It has only EVER failed for me if I was out of range. That’s it. When in range, it functions absolutely 100% perfectly.

3) Even if it were made a teleport, what would that solve? Nothing, because teleports are not somehow flawless, in fact they bug out constantly.

A teleporting KD. Jesus, people. Take a moment to think about that. When the instant teleport doesn’t bug you in to a rock, counterplay to a CC → Eviscerate is removed. That’s just stupid in every aspect.

What if Bull’s Charge was a "Teleport?

It would be called Bull’s Teleport…
since when can bulls Teleport.

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Some people are missing the point of the entire post. Burr King is suggesting that the skill be changed to a teleport to improve functionality, while still retaining the aethetically pleasing look of a Warrior rushing towards the enemy.

Also @ Nark, a gap closing skill used at 600 range is not closing a gap, it’s walking forward. The point of the skill is to close distance and CC a target so you can land some damage.

This type of gameplay already has built in counters as, the farther away you are, the easier it is to dodge as you have longer to act on it. This and CC, blind, Aegis, Teleports/shadowsteps all act against this one skill that has a 45 second CD.

This skill can land, but the risk/reward ratio of it is absurd. The sheer amount of glitches that can happen and the frequency make this skill a liability, not to mention the CD associated with these bugs. Is Bulls Rush a helpful skill? Of course but not with it’s current issues. If you find what I am saying to be wrong then you are simply a delusional bigot.

I’m going to further elaborate. I know that Warriors are not magical, I also would never want them to be. I only chose teleport because when it comes to reliability that mechanic it much better than the current one.

As for the aesthetics, this is my vision. I’ve dropped the concept of it being instant first of all. It would have a 1/2 second “cast time” and the tell will be the Warrior taking the shoulder rush stance the skill currently uses followed by them flashing that orange-yellow color we’re all familiar with. They will then “teleport” (again, this is only in game mechanics) which would leave a Flash-style streak behind them. The enemy will have time to react, but once the skill starts it should be a guaranteed hit if they aren’t evading/blocking etc.

If you’ve ever seen a battle anime imagine the trope where the non-magical brawler type suddenly moves faster than the enemy can see, It’s like that. While as far as the game is concerned you just teleported, but from player’s perspective you just moved really fast.

Also, this will decrease Warrior’s ability to run away because just like JI you will require a target for it to work. It will be slightly different because JI can activate if you don’t have a target but that won’t work for this, it will need a in-range target to activate.

You can say you just want the current gap closers “to work” but the problem with that is that the reason they are failing might be a problem with the game’s engine and would require tons of new code. Every thing I have suggested already exists in the game. As far as I know it would not require making new systems since a skill like what I describes already exists, it just has a different effect.

BurrTheKing.8571:

If you’ve ever seen a battle anime imagine the trope where the non-magical brawler type suddenly moves faster than the enemy can see, It’s like that. While as far as the game is concerned you just teleported, but from player’s perspective you just moved really fast.

#warrior2014

Bulls charge teleport? Maybe as a temporary Band-Aid until they figure out how to fix rush skills in general but it doesn’t fit warrior theme to the slightest.

Also it would need a charge up because you know, it does knock down :/

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Honestly, then it’d be silly.
Not only does the game need less gap-closers, not more (because otherwise we just get a continuous stupid arms race), also it’d be Bull’s Swoosh then, not Bull’s Charge.

maybe moving light speed.

I understand what you mean, but rather teleport which is too good, since you can sometime climb and get other advantage. It would be better to only increase celerity.

How about we rework Bull’s Charge and Rush to actually be able to function as gap closers like intended, and reduce their power as mobility away from the fight. No teleport needed, just reduce the range so that it doesn’t have so much distance to bug out.

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Yah, I seriously don’t understand the hate for Medi Guard. It is one of the more high risk-high reward builds out there. It’s strong but has several big weaknesses. It’s not like trip kit of D/D Eles that have an answer to everything.

Also, I’m getting really fed up with people not reading the full post before responding. It’s obvious because some of you are referring to things that have already been addressed.

BurrTheKing.8571:

You know what the major difference between a DPS focused Medi Guard and a DPS Warrior? There are many but the major one is that the Medi Guard’s gap closer, Judge’s Intervention, is reliable. You can teleport to your target in the middle of using a skill like Binding Blade/Whirling Wrath or Ring of Warding/Mighty Blow, making normally difficult to land skills more reliable.

Now let’s compare this to a DPS Warrior, something which honestly isn’t that viable these days. A big problem is Bull’s Charge. It has a very high failure rate for many players. I’ve avoided it by simply walking towards the player using it, which causes it to either overshoot or they knock you down but are facing the wrong way to follow up before you recover. But what if BC was a “teleport” like JI? It would solve many issues such as:

• Being able to reliably land highly telegraphed attacks like 100b and Skull Crack.

• It would be unaffected by movement impairing conditions.

• Here’s something for those who dislike mobility Wars, it would require a target, meaning that it can’t be used as easily to run away. Sure, in WvW you could still target a bunny or something, but that applies to and skill that teleport.

Now, for thematic purposes the Warrior using the skill would need to leave some sort of after image, so it looks like they just moved incredibly fast. We have to keep some class distinction. Part of me thinks that it would need some sort of tell but really JI doesn’t and I don’t think many view it as being OP because of it. Since it would be used to combo something with a big telegraph and has a fairly long CD and if you have a stun break then it would do that much to you anyways I think it might be fair for it to be instant. While I understand you can’t directly compare too different skills from different classes the skills are VERY similar in what role they play, however one works and one doesn’t.

While I’m on this topic, Guardian has another skill that preforms better than a Warrior skill of a similar function, Leap of Faith. Die to how the skill is designed, it connects much more reliably than the Warrior skill Rush. By the time you reach a target with Rush and then stand in place to begin the attack they have already moved away. It’s no wonder it’s often saved to run away because as a gap closer it totally fails. Leap of Faith is AoE and the attack animation is fluid and doesn’t force you to stand still to attack after you reach your target. I personally would gladly accept some form of Ride the Lightning treatment where if you don’t connect you get a greater CD (but not double, Warrior has less skills than Ele) if in return it moved faster and was AoE like LoF. The only reason for the AoE is that is what appears to make LoF so reliable is that it has a sort of cone rather than a straight line.

Changes like these would make DPS focused double melee Warriors a bit less garbage because when your combo has such a huge CD it should not fail just because the game didn’t let it connect.

EDIT: I’ve clarified my post, please look here

you’re seriously not satisfied with the gross amount of everything they already have?
wow. lets make warrior even easier while we’re at it.

I also like how it’s apparently normal to compare two abilities of two different classes directly, in the same sentence as admitting that they’re totally different.

exasperated sigh

Carighan.6758:

I also like how it’s apparently normal to compare two abilities of two different classes directly, in the same sentence as admitting that they’re totally different.

exasperated sigh

I compared the functionality. They are mechanically different but serve the same role, get in the your enemy’s face. One works most of the time, one works maybe 25% of the time.

No they don’t serve the same role. That’s the point.
Warriors and Guardians have different amounts (and combinations, and contexts) for closing the gap to someone else, excluding Bull’s Rush / Judge’s Intervention.

Given that, the comparison cannot assume that the role is the same, as they don’t have the same hole to fill in the class context. Yes, they are sometimes~frequently used in similar situations, but then so are Feedback and Gear Shield.

Now if it were the same class, and they could pick between the two abilities then yes, the role would be the same (as the same class is trying to handle a situation), and then they’d be comparable.
But given the differences in:

• Class mechanic.
• Class mobility.
• Ranged attacks.
• Gap openers.
• Other gap closers, direct or indirect.
• Average group contexts (a warrior doesn’t occupy the same spot in a PvP group or WvW team as a guardian).
  It just isn’t comparable. No matter how similar they seem.

That’s a key fallacy we usually commit (me included) when discussing balance, we try to compare abilities in a vacuum, between different classes. Which isn’t sensible, as ideally the classes are designed to be so different that the context isn’t comparable and hence it makes no sense to compare individual abilities in such different contexts.

Come on, you’ve read enough of my posts to know that I have stated repeatedly that I don’t like comparing abilities on different classes, but in this case it’s less about balance and more about function.

Both skills serve to get the user close to the enemy, that’s as far as my comparison goes. It’s all about the skill working properly. With a cast time of 1/2 second the skill would still take roughly the same amount of time to complete the action that the current BC but it would actually connect every time (in theory). Again, this is mostly about mechanics, not function. Teleport works while the rush doesn’t.

If ANet manages to fix these gap closers, great. However, if it has something to do with the engine then skills with non-functioning mechanics should be switched over to ones that do.