Guild Wars 2

Some pretty high-ranked players say that one of the main thing holding mesmers back is that they’re very weak to thieves, and you basically need someone else on your team to peel for you constantly in team PvP.

Ditto, just anecdotally speaking, thieves seem to be a pretty big source of frustration in WvW roaming and small groups. I mean, thieves are a common source of frustration for everyone in roaming and small groups, because stealth is a mechanic that mostly involves dealing with crappy UI (and mesmers get stealth, too, after all)… but, like, way WAY beyond that, everything about the thief seems designed to turn mesmers into a trash class:

• Mesmers rely very heavily on targeting skills. Even some of their area damage abilities, like Illusionary Berserker and Mind Wrack, are target-based. Basically when an enemy goes into stealth, all you’ve got to work with is Mind Stab (tiny area effect, roots you during animation), Illusory Wave (long cooldown; might keep them off you for a sec, never gonna kill them), Chaos Storm (long cooldown), and sword autoattacks (disappointing damage for a melee weapon; prepare to get hit back a lot harder than you hit them, light-armor-wearer trying to melee a thief).
• Dumb illusions standing around make C&D trivial.
• Phantasm attacks are very predictable, and thieves have copious evasion to mitigate them.
• Consume Plasma (complete with undocumented Stability!) is a massive slap in the face on top of everything else. Even boon-stripping is near useless because they’re so stacked. I recognize that several stolen skills are set up to be pretty powerful counters to the class they’re stolen from, but some of the other strong ones (Ice Shard, Head Crack) are at least kinda hard to land. Consume Plasma all but guarantees a halfway decent thief running nearly any build can out-attrition a mesmer even if they screw up their burst repeatedly.

Now, on the bright side:

• Illusions do a decent job reacquiring their targets as soon as they come out of stealth.
• Hey, Phase Retreat is good.
• If you take OH Sword or Scepter you get a couple of blocks.

But, well, this really doesn’t address the fact that most of your abilities regardless of weapon set or trait assignment are going to be trash, because it’s the core mechanics of the class that screw you over.

This is rather sad. I can’t think of a single other dynamic that’s so stacked in favor of one class against another. And it’s not just a 1v1 problem. It’s one of the biggest team-play weaknesses of an already troubled and overnerfed class. Why does it work this way? Is this really an intentional design?

I don’ think this design is strictly limited to just Mesmers.

Thieves are basically designed to 100-0 anyone in just a few seconds (often times less) and they are designed to do it well.

On the bright side, you can always take solace in the fact that you are not losing “fights” (I have to use the term loosely when referring to encounters with Thieves) to players, but rather to the mechanics of the game. Always makes me feel better.

Thanks.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Thieves are basically designed to 100-0 anyone in just a few seconds (often times less) and they are designed to do it well.

My main concern isn’t so much the burst, it’s that there’s scarcely any reward for answering it correctly.

Like, the other classes can generally punish a thief for screwing up. Not just the tanky builds who can take the hits but also glassy builds who can counter-burst if they don’t let the thief catch them with their pants down. Mesmer? I dunno, kinda sorta, with the right semi-useless bunker build?

ASP.8093:

Some pretty high-ranked players say that one of the main thing holding mesmers back is that they’re very weak to thieves, and you basically need someone else on your team to peel for you constantly in team PvP.

Ditto, just anecdotally speaking, thieves seem to be a pretty big source of frustration in WvW roaming and small groups. I mean, thieves are a common source of frustration for everyone in roaming and small groups, because stealth is a mechanic that mostly involves dealing with crappy UI (and mesmers get stealth, too, after all)… but, like, way WAY beyond that, everything about the thief seems designed to turn mesmers into a trash class:

• Mesmers rely very heavily on targeting skills. Even some of their area damage abilities, like Illusionary Berserker and Mind Wrack, are target-based. Basically when an enemy goes into stealth, all you’ve got to work with is Mind Stab (tiny area effect, roots you during animation), Illusory Wave (long cooldown; might keep them off you for a sec, never gonna kill them), Chaos Storm (long cooldown), and sword autoattacks (disappointing damage for a melee weapon; prepare to get hit back a lot harder than you hit them, light-armor-wearer trying to melee a thief).
• Dumb illusions standing around make C&D trivial.
• Phantasm attacks are very predictable, and thieves have copious evasion to mitigate them.
• Consume Plasma (complete with undocumented Stability!) is a massive slap in the face on top of everything else. Even boon-stripping is near useless because they’re so stacked. I recognize that several stolen skills are set up to be pretty powerful counters to the class they’re stolen from, but some of the other strong ones (Ice Shard, Head Crack) are at least kinda hard to land. Consume Plasma all but guarantees a halfway decent thief running nearly any build can out-attrition a mesmer even if they screw up their burst repeatedly.

Now, on the bright side:

• Illusions do a decent job reacquiring their targets as soon as they come out of stealth.
• Hey, Phase Retreat is good.
• If you take OH Sword or Scepter you get a couple of blocks.
  But, well, this really doesn’t address the fact that most of your abilities regardless of weapon set or trait assignment are going to be trash, because it’s the core mechanics of the class that screw you over.

This is rather sad. I can’t think of a single other dynamic that’s so stacked in favor of one class against another. And it’s not just a 1v1 problem. It’s one of the biggest team-play weaknesses of an already troubled and overnerfed class. Why does it work this way? Is this really an intentional design?

In spvp yea mesmers is kinda weak to thief but not wvw totally different ball game. Mesmers builds that are barely viable in spvp are godly in wvw. Outside of the conquest game mode mesmers wrecks thiefs and almost anything else.

I take solace in the fact that for how powerful Thieves are when catching lone targets, they’re completely rubbish when fighting for any objective, because they cannot handle multi-target fights. At all, really. There’s too much incidental AE flying around for stealth to matter and they just melt from it.

vincecontix.1264:

Mesmers builds that are barely viable in spvp are godly in wvw.

So… none?
There’s no barely-viable sPvP build, they’re all bad. And after the Glamour and more importantly the Confusion and the Haste nerfs, we aren’t really adding anything in WvW any more.

@OP:
I personally have not many issues fighting thieves in WvW or sPvP (neither on shatter, condition nor phantasm builds).

The only thing that throws me always off is the Stability they get from steal. That has nothing to do with the mesmer profession, because we have barely access to stability. We have some, but it is clearly not a typical boon for mesmers.

TyPin.9860:

@OP:
I personally have not many issues fighting thieves in WvW or sPvP (neither on shatter, condition nor phantasm builds).

The only thing that throws me always off is the Stability they get from steal. That has nothing to do with the mesmer profession, because we have barely access to stability. We have some, but it is clearly not a typical boon for mesmers.

To be fair, that stability requires GM in acrobatics, which means burst builds don’t usually have access to it, and taking it means you either lose damage or stealth traits.

PopeUrban.2578:

TyPin.9860:

@OP:
I personally have not many issues fighting thieves in WvW or sPvP (neither on shatter, condition nor phantasm builds).

The only thing that throws me always off is the Stability they get from steal. That has nothing to do with the mesmer profession, because we have barely access to stability. We have some, but it is clearly not a typical boon for mesmers.

To be fair, that stability requires GM in acrobatics, which means burst builds don’t usually have access to it, and taking it means you either lose damage or stealth traits.

No points in acrobatics are necessary for that.

Turamarth.3248:

PopeUrban.2578:

TyPin.9860:

@OP:
I personally have not many issues fighting thieves in WvW or sPvP (neither on shatter, condition nor phantasm builds).

The only thing that throws me always off is the Stability they get from steal. That has nothing to do with the mesmer profession, because we have barely access to stability. We have some, but it is clearly not a typical boon for mesmers.

To be fair, that stability requires GM in acrobatics, which means burst builds don’t usually have access to it, and taking it means you either lose damage or stealth traits.

No points in acrobatics are necessary for that.

Unless I’ve missed something, my thief only has access to stability from daggerstorm or from taking the new assassin’s equilibrium trait. I’d like to know how I can get more stability without investing a GM trait in to it, unless you mean the stability from the mes stolen item?

PopeUrban.2578:

Unless I’ve missed something, my thief only has access to stability from daggerstorm or from taking the new assassin’s equilibrium trait. I’d like to know how I can get more stability without investing a GM trait in to it, what’s the deal?

Since he was talking about steal I assumed he meant Consume Plasma the item you steal from mesmers which grant you all boons.

Turamarth.3248:

PopeUrban.2578:

Unless I’ve missed something, my thief only has access to stability from daggerstorm or from taking the new assassin’s equilibrium trait. I’d like to know how I can get more stability without investing a GM trait in to it, what’s the deal?

Since he was talking about steal I assumed he meant Consume Plasma the item you steal from mesmers which grant you all boons.

Yeah, I thought about that and I guess you replied as i was editing

Plasma is pretty fly, I’ll admit that, and it is a thing that is specific to fighting mesmers.

Against the really really really good Thieves no one stand a chance except possibly a lucky well zerker necro that squirt out everything he has on his feet (but a Thief that fall for that isnt so good IMO). The Mesmer is no exception to this rule.

That said, I think Mesmers are actually one of the best classes suitable to at least attempt to counter a Thief. You can get teleport on very short cooldown (phase retreat, 5s when fully traited), the clones can confuse even the best opponent and if 3 heavy hitting phantasms are up and ready to attack they will easily take 50% of a zerker Thief’s HP as soon as they appear again. A shatter Mesmer can probably pop a Thief as soon as he appear. The Mesmer also have access to multiple blocks and invoulnerability, not to mention stealth of course.

So no, the best of Mesmers wont defeat the best of Thieves. But at least the average Mesmer is better equipped to handle the average Thief than your other average class.

Besides, most of the Mesmer pains come from its own skills being broken/buggy. Not the strength of the other class, such as the Thief.

That’s just the way it is…Honestly if I find something I don’t like about a class I just deal with it and learn to counter it. Either keep playing Mesmer or reroll.

Honestly mesmers are very glassy usually. Which is why thieves can kill them with ease usually.

Consume Plasma, for one, needs to be nerfed. Not just because Thieves counter Mesmers, but because in general it’s too powerful of a Steal ability.

Just change it to grant 3 (number subject to change) boons at random. Nerfs the skill and fits nicely in the chaotic and random theme of the mesmer

/edit: Exclude stability from the random pool.

Iavra.8510:

Just change it to grant 3 (number subject to change) boons at random. Nerfs the skill and fits nicely in the chaotic and random theme of the mesmer

/edit: Exclude stability from the random pool.

TBH wouthout the stability it’s really, really weak compared to other PvP steals (which were normalized a long time ago specifically because they were too random and often too weak)

Dawdler.8521:

Against the really really really good Thieves no one stand a chance except possibly a lucky well zerker necro that squirt out everything he has on his feet (but a Thief that fall for that isnt so good IMO). The Mesmer is no exception to this rule.

That said, I think Mesmers are actually one of the best classes suitable to at least attempt to counter a Thief. You can get teleport on very short cooldown (phase retreat, 5s when fully traited), the clones can confuse even the best opponent and if 3 heavy hitting phantasms are up and ready to attack they will easily take 50% of a zerker Thief’s HP as soon as they appear again. A shatter Mesmer can probably pop a Thief as soon as he appear. The Mesmer also have access to multiple blocks and invoulnerability, not to mention stealth of course.

So no, the best of Mesmers wont defeat the best of Thieves. But at least the average Mesmer is better equipped to handle the average Thief than your other average class.

Besides, most of the Mesmer pains come from its own skills being broken/buggy. Not the strength of the other class, such as the Thief.

He gets it ^^

Most thief attacks are single target or not that big of an AoE. Meaning those phantasms hurt if they aren’t dealt with and all you have to do is kite to the best of your ability. That + bait them into a blurred frenzy combo wombo and usually by then we are either forced to back off and recover or limp away. Both Thief and Mesmer can blow each other up at any given time, it just depends on which one gets their rotation going first.

I wouldn’t say thief is designed to beat Mesmer though, it more so depends on the build you’re using. Find me a video of the best of the best Mesmer and thief going toe to toe, I’d be willing to bet there is a mix of win and loses from both.

PopeUrban.2578:

Turamarth.3248:

PopeUrban.2578:

Unless I’ve missed something, my thief only has access to stability from daggerstorm or from taking the new assassin’s equilibrium trait. I’d like to know how I can get more stability without investing a GM trait in to it, what’s the deal?

Since he was talking about steal I assumed he meant Consume Plasma the item you steal from mesmers which grant you all boons.

Yeah, I thought about that and I guess you replied as i was editing

Plasma is pretty fly, I’ll admit that, and it is a thing that is specific to fighting mesmers.

Yes, I wasn’t very clear about that, but I was talking about the stability you get from Consume Plasma. I find it okay, that thieves get a lot of boons, but as this random factor is something inherent in the Mesmer design, I would find it more “appropriate”, if it would grant – let’s say – 5 boons only, but chosen randomly. That would more represent a stolen mesmer like attribute, than in it’s current form. But I guess that won’t change, since I argued this case shortly after release already and the response was mostly negative.

NinjaEd.3946:

Find me a video of the best of the best Mesmer and thief going toe to toe, I’d be willing to bet there is a mix of win and loses from both.

And if that’s the case, the balance is fine.

One of the main problems when fighting a thief as a squishy mesmer is Shadow Refuge. If i for some reason can’t kick him out of it with iWave (skill / weapon swap on cd, thief dodges, too near to me so even when kicked back will stay in the circle etc.) there is absolutely no way for me to know, when the burst will come.

Since i just don’t have enough skills to constantly evade/block/invul for the whole stealth duration and 1 backstab is usually enough to take ~50-80% of my life, i either have to take it and pray that those heatseeking heartseekers won’t hit me while i stealth and heal up or run for my life and hope i can put enough distance between us so he will destealth before he catches me.

Iavra.8510:

One of the main problems when fighting a thief as a squishy mesmer is Shadow Refuge. If i for some reason can’t kick him out of it with iWave (skill / weapon swap on cd, thief dodges, too near to me so even when kicked back will stay in the circle etc.) there is absolutely no way for me to know, when the burst will come.

Since i just don’t have enough skills to constantly evade/block/invul for the whole stealth duration and 1 backstab is usually enough to take ~50-80% of my life, i either have to take it and pray that those heatseeking heartseekers won’t hit me while i stealth and heal up or run for my life and hope i can put enough distance between us so he will destealth before he catches me.

If your running pu build well you basically get aegis every time you stealth so easy to avoid the bs from refuge. Also since backstab is single target you can kite among you clones and get them to absorb the attack.

Usually when a thief uses shadowrefuge its because he needs time to regroup. If you cd are not in a good situation either just move away and one direction thiefs has to stay in sr for 4secs so you can make some distance. Thief will either have to use initiative or a utility to catch up to you.

Anyway here is some bit old footage of me dueling some thiefs. I not even using a pu build because some thiefs where complaining about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A

SoloQ in the video I vs couple of thiefs among other profs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8Y7pvQQuA

PU doesn’t really count as squishy as it provides Protection and Aegis and you also get +300 Toughness just from going 6 into Chaos. If that statement was meant as “play PU or not at all” that’s a clear balancing issue right here.

Also using clones to absorb backstabs won’t work. If the thief has you as his target, he will still hit you.

Actually, fighting a D/x thief, while hard and totally in his favor, is doable if you can land your shatter burst. Sadly you can’t just try over a 100 times like the thief so you have to make your 1 attack count.

P/D condi thief is a completely different topic. From my experience, those fights are impossible to win kittenter. But P/D is op anyway, so that’s not a mesmer issue.

vincecontix.1264:

If your running pu build well you basically get aegis every time you stealth so easy to avoid the bs from refuge. Also since backstab is single target you can kite among you clones and get them to absorb the attack.

Generally if the aegis absorbs the bs then the thief does not come out of stealth, meaning he can just spam it until it goes off, the first hit will be absorbed by the aegis. The thief will not lose stealth and thus the 2nd hit will be that big burst backstab.

And yes you can kite around the clones, but this will only work for condi builds that unload. You can practically stand in the clones and the bs will still go off and hit you.

I don’t see SR to be any issue. I run in PvP usually a zerker or rampager amulet and either phantasms or shatter (or an experimental hybrid of shatter/phantasm). Either way, all specs are fairly glassy. In WvW I also run a glassy build with 2.2k armor.

If I fail to push or pull the thief out of SR it would be the worst idea to just randomly dodge or use any other skill (unless you have the ultimate insight in your foe’s psyche). I move randomly around, mostly stand even in the SR area and attack with sword #1. It makes it very hard to land a good backstab on me for the thief, he might even get damaged by my attacks. After he hit me, then I may use some of my cool downs to avoid further damage and it proves often sufficient enough.

Are people seriously asking for consume plasma nerf? /facepalm

Just in case, you know you can interrupt thief while he is casting it, right?

Try to play a thief vs decent mesmer and you will realise how annoying to is to fight mesmer actually, especially if you run build that relies on stealth.

Trying to get decent positioning is actually useless vs them since you either get hit by AoE or clones will make sure to tell mesmer where you went to by following you across the map.

If you are not carefull, mes zerker will just eat 80% of your HP and at this point it is GG.
Mes have acess to dazes that can punish thief really hard.

Getting pushed out of DR is death sentence.

Besides if you somehow end up killing mesmer but yourself is low and can’t stealth you will just die to AI spanking you and then it is GG.

Should i mention PU mesmers that is usually waste of time to fight?

Chorazin.4107:

vincecontix.1264:

If your running pu build well you basically get aegis every time you stealth so easy to avoid the bs from refuge. Also since backstab is single target you can kite among you clones and get them to absorb the attack.

…

And yes you can kite around the clones, but this will only work for condi builds that unload. You can practically stand in the clones and the bs will still go off and hit you.

That is not true, there were countless times when ppl were standing next to their pet and my character would literary turn around and hit their pet instead of player despite me targeting the player.

People in pvp abuse it a lot vs thieves, they just stand on top of the pets because they know most of the cases BS will hit pet not player.

Cynz.9437:

That is not true, there were countless times when ppl were standing next to their pet and my character would literary turn around and hit their pet instead of player despite me targeting the player.

People in pvp abuse it a lot vs thieves, they just stand on top of the pets because they know most of the cases BS will hit pet not player.

I have tried and tried to get this to work, i have stood in my clones so my back is inside the clone, i have stood slightly in front of the clone, still not much luck.

I can get it to work for ranged projectiles if the clone is between me and the thief for unload.

Cynz.9437:

Are people seriously asking for consume plasma nerf? /facepalm

Just in case, you know you can interrupt thief while he is casting it, right?

It’s a self-buff that doesn’t break stealth. You use it when you’re moving for position anyway, not when you’re visible/Revealed.

Thieves are designed around destroying any glass/semi-glass build and if anything goes wrong they have a million ways to escape. It’s quite unbalanced.

vincecontix.1264:

ASP.8093:

Some pretty high-ranked players say that one of the main thing holding mesmers back is that they’re very weak to thieves, and you basically need someone else on your team to peel for you constantly in team PvP.

Ditto, just anecdotally speaking, thieves seem to be a pretty big source of frustration in WvW roaming and small groups. I mean, thieves are a common source of frustration for everyone in roaming and small groups, because stealth is a mechanic that mostly involves dealing with crappy UI (and mesmers get stealth, too, after all)… but, like, way WAY beyond that, everything about the thief seems designed to turn mesmers into a trash class:

• Mesmers rely very heavily on targeting skills. Even some of their area damage abilities, like Illusionary Berserker and Mind Wrack, are target-based. Basically when an enemy goes into stealth, all you’ve got to work with is Mind Stab (tiny area effect, roots you during animation), Illusory Wave (long cooldown; might keep them off you for a sec, never gonna kill them), Chaos Storm (long cooldown), and sword autoattacks (disappointing damage for a melee weapon; prepare to get hit back a lot harder than you hit them, light-armor-wearer trying to melee a thief).
• Dumb illusions standing around make C&D trivial.
• Phantasm attacks are very predictable, and thieves have copious evasion to mitigate them.
• Consume Plasma (complete with undocumented Stability!) is a massive slap in the face on top of everything else. Even boon-stripping is near useless because they’re so stacked. I recognize that several stolen skills are set up to be pretty powerful counters to the class they’re stolen from, but some of the other strong ones (Ice Shard, Head Crack) are at least kinda hard to land. Consume Plasma all but guarantees a halfway decent thief running nearly any build can out-attrition a mesmer even if they screw up their burst repeatedly.

Now, on the bright side:

• Illusions do a decent job reacquiring their targets as soon as they come out of stealth.
• Hey, Phase Retreat is good.
• If you take OH Sword or Scepter you get a couple of blocks.
  But, well, this really doesn’t address the fact that most of your abilities regardless of weapon set or trait assignment are going to be trash, because it’s the core mechanics of the class that screw you over.

This is rather sad. I can’t think of a single other dynamic that’s so stacked in favor of one class against another. And it’s not just a 1v1 problem. It’s one of the biggest team-play weaknesses of an already troubled and overnerfed class. Why does it work this way? Is this really an intentional design?

In spvp yea mesmers is kinda weak to thief but not wvw totally different ball game. Mesmers builds that are barely viable in spvp are godly in wvw. Outside of the conquest game mode mesmers wrecks thiefs and almost anything else.

^ As someone who does a lot more WvW than PvP… I personally hate Mesmers about 100 times more than I hate Thieves. In PvP they’re still a pain but much less so. In WvW, good luck beating a Mesmer if they have at least half a clue what they’re doing.

You can always move away from a mesmer. Unless they are using staff and/or focus and traveler/centaur runes, a mesmer won’t be able to catch anyone. And since our only immobilize skill can now be countered by autoattacking the clone once, there is not much we can do except /wave’ing.

hmmm I always thought a ranger has more trouble than a mesmer against thieves at surviving.

Cynz.9437:

Are people seriously asking for consume plasma nerf? /facepalm

You can facepalm as often as you want, but yes, that is what I was suggesting since release. It is not a game breaking skill, however, it gives the thieve an advantage that is neither in line with other steal items, doesn’t fit in the mesmer characteristics, from which the item “originates” nor is it fair in a straight up fight. Why does the thief need stability next to all the other boons from consume plasma when fighting a mesmer?

TyPin.9860:

Cynz.9437:

Are people seriously asking for consume plasma nerf? /facepalm

You can facepalm as often as you want, but yes, that is what I was suggesting since release. It is not a game breaking skill, however, it gives the thieve an advantage that is neither in line with other steal items, doesn’t fit in the mesmer characteristics, from which the item “originates” nor is it fair in a straight up fight. Why does the thief need stability next to all the other boons from consume plasma when fighting a mesmer?

why doesd mes need invul

why does need mes stealth spam

why does mes need perma protection/regen when he spams stealth

why does mes needs crap load of pets on demand

why does mes can do 3 different things with his pet via F1,2,3 while thief can do only 1?

why do mes pets follow me even if mes not targetting me?

why do mes pets can body block my backstab?

why are mes pets allowed to attack me when mes and my thief are both in downed state?

why is that, that if i kill mes pets i take crap load of dmg, if i don’t kill them i still take crap load of dmg?

why does mes has a port and can have treb up for his team 24/7 on khylo map?

there are PLENTY of crap that mes has and that make thief life unbearable

just because some other steal spells are actually garbage and hardly usefull outside of very few ocasions, doesn’t mean that consume plasma has to be garbage too

oh and btw YOU CAN DODGE steal, not that is hard for a mes which mindlessly spams dodge non stop to generate more AI

bottom line, mesmers have enough spells/features that make them really stupid in many ways… consume plasma can be waited out, stipped or even converted if necro is nearbly

trust me, you are not losing fights because of thief steal

I have a friend who plays mesmer and thief and he rakes a dump on any thief he meets on his mes. So issue is not cosume plasma, the issue is between chair and monitor.

Cynz.9437:

TyPin.9860:

Cynz.9437:

Are people seriously asking for consume plasma nerf? /facepalm

You can facepalm as often as you want, but yes, that is what I was suggesting since release. It is not a game breaking skill, however, it gives the thieve an advantage that is neither in line with other steal items, doesn’t fit in the mesmer characteristics, from which the item “originates” nor is it fair in a straight up fight. Why does the thief need stability next to all the other boons from consume plasma when fighting a mesmer?

why doesd mes need invul

why does need mes stealth spam

why does mes need perma protection/regen when he spams stealth

why does mes needs crap load of pets on demand

why does mes can do 3 different things with his pet via F1,2,3 while thief can do only 1?

why do mes pets follow me even if mes not targetting me?

why do mes pets can body block my backstab?

why are mes pets allowed to attack me when mes and my thief are both in downed state?

why is that, that if i kill mes pets i take crap load of dmg, if i don’t kill them i still take crap load of dmg?

why does mes has a port and can have treb up for his team 24/7 on khylo map?

there are PLENTY of crap that mes has and that make thief life unbearable

just because some other steal spells are actually garbage and hardly usefull outside of very few ocasions, doesn’t mean that consume plasma has to be garbage too

oh and btw YOU CAN DODGE steal, not that is hard for a mes which mindlessly spams dodge non stop to generate more AI

bottom line, mesmers have enough spells/features that make them really stupid in many ways… consume plasma can be waited out, stipped or even converted if necro is nearbly

trust me, you are not losing fights because of thief steal

I have a friend who plays mesmer and thief and he rakes a dump on any thief he meets on his mes. So issue is not cosume plasma, the issue is between chair and monitor.

Well if you play PU condition with scepter torch, then the thief is pretty much dead.
If you play glkittenter, though the thief can burst you down quite easily, as the mesmer is paper and will often play much more aggressively than PU condition, meaning that its a lot easier to pick the mesmer out.

And lets not forgot how viable PU builds are in tpvp for how great they are at holding points. Oh wait, that was sarcasm.

Cynz.9437:

trust me, you are not losing fights because of thief steal

Well, as I said in the first post, you’re mostly losing them because you can’t even activate most of your skills at all without a target.

(Or you can be King of Hotjoin with Condi PU.)

@Cynz.9437:
The thing is, that if the thief is intelligent, he can bypass via consume plasma any ability of me to push him out of SR. Of course he could dodge in the right moment, or position himself clever, but that would require actual skill. Consume plasma offers very strong boons already and if used correctly even bypasses lockdown mesmer builds, who are quite vulnerable to good thieves already.

But why is it that you assume I am losing against thieves. Because I suggested a change to a skill? A perceived imbalance doesn’t always have to coincide with losing because of this issue. I know I won’t find much positive response in this, because I had suggested that since the beginning and the reaction from thieves was always the same.

The skill simply doesn’t make sense and your rethorics don’t change that. You can disagree with me, but don’t try to insult me, it’s beneath both of us.

I play mesmer allot like on Clergyman or Angel, and I never have an issue on losing to a thief. My brother Unite never complains either. I actually feel a thief should be complaining about mesmer as they have to CnD with SA to merely survive.

A selfish Mesmer build is not Thief food; however, a selfish Mesmer build is next to useless in competitive PvP. Any class with stealth and the ability to teleport will hard counter a shatter Mesmer, this includes other stealth heavy Mesmers. The problem is not with the Thief class, at least in this instance, but with Mesmer design. We need a viable AE group utility option that does not rely on AI pathing and long delays to deliver damage and support our teams. These builds have existed in the past, but have been nerfed to the ground with no compensation in other areas.

Zelulose.8695:

I play mesmer allot like on Clergyman or Angel, and I never have an issue on losing to a thief. My brother Unite never complains either. I actually feel a thief should be complaining about mesmer as they have to CnD with SA to merely survive.

Nah, then Mesmer’s say we have d/p and should just resort to perma-stealthing hitting once every 15 seconds.

It’s always about what potential we have, not about what most people try to enjoy.

P/p Q.Q

@OP

You mean S/D thieves. of course S/D thieves are the counter to everything right now.

style.6173:

@OP

You mean S/D thieves. of course S/D thieves are the counter to everything right now.

What makes s/d so deadly in spvp has almost nothing to do with thief actually. Its more so

1. Double proc runes a.k.a air/fire

2. Insane might stacking.

3. Relocation of ferocity from traits to amulet (since ferocity they didn’t want to change critical damage in pvp so it was a compensation change which indirectly made zerker trait lines less relevant).

S/D has always been alright, it’s only gotten real attention since the feature update in april (don’t care who’s build it was or is).

NinjaEd.3946:

style.6173:

@OP

You mean S/D thieves. of course S/D thieves are the counter to everything right now.

What makes s/d so deadly in spvp has almost nothing to do with thief actually. Its more so

1. Double proc runes a.k.a air/fire

2. Insane might stacking.

3. Relocation of ferocity from traits to amulet (since ferocity they didn’t want to change critical damage in pvp so it was a compensation change which indirectly made zerker trait lines less relevant).

S/D has always been alright, it’s only gotten real attention since the feature update in april (don’t care who’s build it was or is).

(not to mention that d/p was made hardly viable outside of well organized teams)

Thief dead in 8 secs. Non-pu build only stealth is elite. Yes it was luck and some skill. I think I hit a total of 5 buttons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HzmEj5k7Kk

lol yes I counted all 5 clicks with a mouse mind you because I was lazy at the time and ready for bed.

Do you need someone to tell you that the thief was terrible?

He was predictable thats all.

How would you counter after your backstab was blocked and each confusion tick was 2000 +? If we are going to be constructive lets stop with the adjectives and explain.

Well, I would have not attacked any more. He ignored the confusion stacks completely. Either he didn’t care and hoped he could outdamage a perplexity mesmer in a few seconds (non optimal assessment on his part) or he was not aware of them. Either way, this death could have been avoided, by simply disengaging.

moonreft.2138:

Thief dead in 8 secs. Non-pu build only stealth is elite. Yes it was luck and some skill. I think I hit a total of 5 buttons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HzmEj5k7Kk

lol yes I counted all 5 clicks with a mouse mind you because I was lazy at the time and ready for bed.

So,
1. That video is hilarious.
2. That thief suuuuucks.
3. What does your build do outside of blocking and some confusion stacks? Like, imagine you get into a 5-on-5 at a camp: how do you contribute to the team?

1. Thanks I laugh for 20 mins after that fight. I was sleep deprived and more then a little giggly.

2. Well he was predictable, I won’t go so far as to add insult to injury.

3. Where I shine is locking down the most damaging build for the team to dispatch fast. Weapon of choice is staff. I took Osicats napalm build and made an interrupt build from it. Each clone bounces 2 ticks of burn and major might to teammates.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAraWlknpMt1oxBNcrNitxY6OiIDUO0RlMghB-TVjAABXoEMhHEwfnAgY0FAwRAAHNEPY+K6DBALaBoe/hTV/RMlQQp8JAACgje0je0jGSBAzaA-w

Build as it stands. Been at it a month now and I may drop the extra bounce for menders purity and 3 mantras on cast but, I just leveled a necro to 80 that I am playing with. TY

The typical way to deal with a stealth thief as a mesmer is to camp near your clones, wait for them to reappear, and retaliate with everything you’ve got – including your shatters. Generally speaking, the cooldown time between attacks for phantasms is roughly around 3 seconds. So most of the time, when they pop out of stealth, they’re lining themselves up for a nice attack from your phantasms. It’s very dangerous for a stealth thief to go melee against a good mesmer. Otherwise, smart dodging and smart use of your interrupts will destroy a typical stealth thief. Against the better players, it’s difficult to play against a stealth thief because they can be so unpredictable. You might be expecting a backstab, but then realize that you’ve been immobed from surprise shot getting lined up for a succulent clusterbomb shot. Shortbow does a ton of work against mesmers.

Against an S/P thief, you absolutely need mantra of distraction. And against an S/D thief, good luck; you’re gonna need it.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

I don’ think this design is strictly limited to just Mesmers.

Thieves are basically designed to 100-0 anyone in just a few seconds (often times less) and they are designed to do it well.

On the bright side, you can always take solace in the fact that you are not losing “fights” (I have to use the term loosely when referring to encounters with Thieves) to players, but rather to the mechanics of the game. Always makes me feel better.

Thanks.

Well, we can look at it in another way too. Longbow Ranger w/wo Sic’em will also tear a mesmer apart, or a thief. However unlike the ranger, which can still fire off a stealth arrow or a knockback, the thief HAS to land his attack the first time. It HAS to succeed. If you were to mitigate the first attack (especially thieves using basilisk venom) then the chance of the thief succeeding is drastically lowered. Because he now has both steal and elite on CD. Both of which is more often then not, crucial for the thief to succeed in a 100-0 defeat.

My advice is to build your mesmer a bit more flexible. I am not a good mesmer player, i do no know all the traits, tricks and issues with the class. However i do know that ArenaNet has designed every class to be able to have some sort of inherent defense against everything at once (just not very good defense all at once).

To be honest, from what little i know of mesmers, even though Mantras are quite bad, i think your best shot to shut down a thief is Mantra of Concentration. With or without traits. thats 2x stunbreak with 2 sec CD. All you need to do is channel them when you have a spare moment (every time you respawn, once you are alone etc…).

It is not the perfect “counter”, but between complaining and trying it out, it seems like the better alternative.

Rangers have some of the same issues as mesmers, once focused, we have VERY few ways to rapidly heal ourselves. So while mesmers can burst heal a bit better then rangers, they lack the armor to soak up the hits and take greater damage. All in all, your best friend will be unorthodox solutions that catches the thief by surprise.

That being said, first player to make power block trait + Mantra of Distraction work will be “jerk of the century” to fight.