Guild Wars 2

A thief can heal 1000 hp a second if traited here with shadow refuge.

Without shadow refuge a thief can heal 500 hp/sec.

Without the regen a thief can heal 340 hp/sec.

How is this considered fair when all of the thief skills are on such low cooldowns? Why is this so overlooked?

This makes thieves “god mode” in WvW/PVE roaming/small man groups. Just stealth, reset fight whenever – or just cnd and heal 1500 hp whenever. A year and a half into this game, yet this very broken trait line still exists.

So whats the thought behind this ANET?

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is indeed quite strong: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow’s_Rejuvenation

However, such a Thief that spams stealth:
-Does not really help in speedclearing dungeons in PvE
-Does not contribute much in a Zerg fight in WvW
-Does not capture or contest points well in PvP

So they really don’t do very much that impacts the game in any meaningful way. They just run around and harass people in hotjoins or in WvW “roaming”. I’m pretty sure that’s why this trait isn’t really considered a problem.

with 30 in sr, shadow rejuvinate will heal about 323 hp/s
Hide in shadows heals for 5540 + 4s stealth(32.3*4) +4 1/2s regen = 7500 hp over 4s if you stay in stealth. 30s cd

shadows refuge heals for about 409 hp/s + stealth heal (323*x) = 6481 is you remain in stealth the full 15s this has a 60s cd

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vYAQNAoalksMp7pJktHVoORUcPcKjqp6KgVA-zUBBYfBMzsIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqmUARsMC-w

It is a trait that is completely out of line though if used correctly, it makes a thief near “invincible” and its what is cried about by many, even here. Stealth… ok. But giving a thief so much power in their hands in WvW is quite ridiculous I would think. It makes any other character besides a thief obsolete nearly in a 1 on 1 scenario when it comes to WvW.

Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp

if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.

Yay for another person complaining about thief. Let’s ignore all the other professions out there who can outheal thief WITHOUT need for stealth to do it. Let’s ignore that SR is one of only TWO skills thief has access to (steal with mug trait being the other) besides their main heal skill that can actually HEAL them…and let’s ignore that the only other access to healing they have is a completely WORTHLESS set of utility skills called venoms that nobody uses because thief simply needs every single utility skill to be a protective one in some way, or else they will have no chance to beat any slightly decent player of any other profession.

While you’re at it, you should probably complain about ranger’s various autoheals, guardian’s huge full-life heals (plus heavy armor), warrior’s excellent, completely PASSIVE heals via HS and traits, ele’s access to multiple healing and regen combos and skills, necro’s life leeching and double an already high life pool with instant access, engineer’s what, 5+ heal skills besides main heal, etc etc etc…

L2P?…please? Stop complaining because some semi-decent thief took you out because you are no good at this game.

also Thief only has a base of 10800 hp so if he heals for 5-7k it will look like going from 0-100% because of the very very low base HP to start with.

Brando.1374:

Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp

if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.

A warrior doesn’t burst for 7-9k with running healing signet to its max. Don’t kid yourself.

War’s regen is obnoxious, but it is getting nerfed as well on the upcoming patch, on the other hand this obnoxious trait is being ignored. A warrior cannot heal for 1000 hp/sec for example.

Chris.4527:

Brando.1374:

Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp

if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.

A warrior doesn’t burst for 7-9k with running healing signet to its max. Don’t kid yourself.

War’s regen is obnoxious, but it is getting nerfed as well on the upcoming patch, on the other hand this obnoxious trait is being ignored. A warrior cannot heal for 1000 hp/sec for example.

Woot 8%.

Form.8741:

Yay for another person complaining about thief. Let’s ignore all the other professions out there who can outheal thief WITHOUT need for stealth to do it. Let’s ignore that SR is one of only TWO skills thief has access to (steal with mug trait being the other) besides their main heal skill that can actually HEAL them…and let’s ignore that the only other access to healing they have is a completely WORTHLESS set of utility skills called venoms that nobody uses because thief simply needs every single utility skill to be a protective one in some way, or else they will have no chance to beat any slightly decent player of any other profession.

While you’re at it, you should probably complain about ranger’s various autoheals, guardian’s huge full-life heals (plus heavy armor), warrior’s excellent, completely PASSIVE heals via HS and traits, ele’s access to multiple healing and regen combos and skills, necro’s life leeching and double an already high life pool with instant access, engineer’s what, 5+ heal skills besides main heal, etc etc etc…

L2P?…please? Stop complaining because some semi-decent thief took you out because you are no good at this game.

You should go by your own advice.

A thief has many more ways than “2” that you listed. CND being the main obnoxious one tied in with the trait listed. healing 300hp/s or more in most cases if traited correctly every time reveal is down, is ridiculous.

I understand your half-witted remarks on trying to defend your class that is quite obnoxious, but please, this is meant for intellectual conversation.

Most experienced thieves run – 12-15k hp, huge crit chance tied in with fury, also with huge critical damage tied in behind that.

Now add that together with critting 5k or more on a consistent basis, you have a completely broken mechanic that needs to be addressed. With on top of that, healing 300(usually way more) hp a second while fighting.

Of course you can argue a warrior can heal as well, but they do not have the ability to reset the fight whenever they deem fit. They are stuck in the location they are fighting in.

Chris.4527:

Form.8741:

Yay for another person complaining about thief. Let’s ignore all the other professions out there who can outheal thief WITHOUT need for stealth to do it. Let’s ignore that SR is one of only TWO skills thief has access to (steal with mug trait being the other) besides their main heal skill that can actually HEAL them…and let’s ignore that the only other access to healing they have is a completely WORTHLESS set of utility skills called venoms that nobody uses because thief simply needs every single utility skill to be a protective one in some way, or else they will have no chance to beat any slightly decent player of any other profession.

While you’re at it, you should probably complain about ranger’s various autoheals, guardian’s huge full-life heals (plus heavy armor), warrior’s excellent, completely PASSIVE heals via HS and traits, ele’s access to multiple healing and regen combos and skills, necro’s life leeching and double an already high life pool with instant access, engineer’s what, 5+ heal skills besides main heal, etc etc etc…

L2P?…please? Stop complaining because some semi-decent thief took you out because you are no good at this game.

You should go by your own advice.

A thief has many more ways than “2” that you listed. CND being the main obnoxious one tied in with the trait listed. healing 300hp/s or more in most cases if traited correctly every time reveal is down, is ridiculous.

I understand your half-witted remarks on trying to defend your class that is quite obnoxious, but please, this is meant for intellectual conversation.

Most experienced thieves run – 12-15k hp, huge crit chance tied in with fury, also with huge critical damage tied in behind that.

Now add that together with critting 5k or more on a consistent basis, you have a completely broken mechanic that needs to be addressed. With on top of that, healing 300(usually way more) hp a second while fighting.

Of course you can argue a warrior can heal as well, but they do not have the ability to reset the fight whenever they deem fit. They are stuck in the location they are fighting in.

That 300 hp/sec while stealth, they ain’t getting any of that while revealed, if a thief stealth at the very moment reveal is down, it more like a net of ~183/ sec varies depend in the type of stealth used of course , shadow refuge a bit more than that, but nothing to complain about honestly.

That all depends whether or not the thief decide to re-enter stealth/ attacks after entering.

A thief can consistently sit there, cnd soon as reveal is off is where I am at – making them obnoxious.

Also, they can snag “stealth gain regen” trait to tag along with it for extra stupidity!

Also, I gave the numbers in the early post for the regen given.

Chris.4527:

A thief can consistently sit there, cnd soon as reveal is off is where I am at – making them obnoxious.

Also, they can snag “stealth gain regen” trait to tag along with it for extra stupidity!

Also, I gave the numbers in the early post for the regen given.

And do little dps at the same time, (note I haven’t said burst)

listen. gw2 provides a lot of possibilities improving your defense or offense. if u want u can only chose traits for your defense or your offense. depending on your choice you run a bunker build or glass canon , for example. what does this mean? you can reach 500hp/sec or higher, or simply do tones of damage.

and @chris: when i read your initial post, i had to think of bart simpson and his phrases at the beginning of the simpson’s intro. i had to smile…to laugh. u can add SR on your calculations but everybody knows that SR has 5 pulses and 340hp/s over 5sec (30SA) AND 60sec CD.
that’s like you would sale a mobile phone tariff for 2 cents per second, but this offer is only true on saturdays.
think about it – every class can get their “2 cents per second tariff on saturdays”

You’re wrong there Tets.

The “infamous” s/d build 10-0-30-0-30 or the DP build 10/30/30 – gets both worlds.

With S’/D AA’s, cnd, etc. you have 3-5k or more crits most of the time, with the ridiculous regen.

DP build, can go around critting 10k in that current set up with the appropriate gear, and turn around and reset their hp whenever.

5 pulses is more than enough, tied in with everything I previously listed for ridiculous regen, tied in with the damage.

So what point are you trying to make?

A thief that can burst for 5k plus, reset the fight whenever, have near permanent regen – heal for over 1000 per second every 60 seconds since everyone is caught on that, and heal for 500p/sec whenever they want to go stealth.

So all of this, tied in with the damage in your opinion… is fair?

Chris.4527:

A thief can consistently sit there, cnd soon as reveal is off is where I am at – making them obnoxious.

Also, they can snag “stealth gain regen” trait to tag along with it for extra stupidity!

Also, I gave the numbers in the early post for the regen given.

Your numbers are wrong though.
assuming 300 healing power
Shadow Rejuv= 323/hps while stealthed
Shadow Protector= 167.5/hps or 1675 total
Shadow refuge= 409/hps or 2045 total

Getting all 3 at once is 900/hps for 5s, 490/hps for another 5s, and 323/hps for the remaning 5s. It will heal for 8565 health total. Considering shadow refuge is a 60s cooldown that’s 143/hps.

Ignoring initiative traits, CND is a 6s cooldown(takes 6 initiative and initiative regens at 1/s iirc). Every 6s a thief can CND and have a 4s stealth. That’s 382/hps if the thief keeps constantly using CND every 6s.

Now lets compare this all to a warrior. Warriors can easily get 700/hps between HS, adrenal health, and regen. There is only 5s every minute where a thief ticks higher than a warrior, otherwise the warrior is always ticking for more. Shadow refuge is a huge beacon of “here I am! Come kill me!” where the warrior has to do absolutely nothing to get their health regen.

A regen thief is annoying no doubt, but OP they are not. They might not die but they aren’t a huge danger to anyone not berserking.

I would love for you to come to tier 2 NA, and fight the thieves using this then.

You are looking at a “warrior base”, my apologies for being a few points off on the heals, etc.

Lets see what a warrior cant do.

A warrior can not go invisible.
A warrior can not support this amount of regen, and burst for 5k or more.
A warrior does not have the ability to put poison on to halt others healing as well.
A warrior does not have a… 6k? burst heal with mug and withdraw used as well, along with continuous regen.

What kind of point were you trying to make here? A banner regen warrior being able to nuke the damage that a thief does?

Thieves heal to much, haha, whenever you think you seen it all…

Playing warrior damages your brain, something like 10/30/30/0/0 will never hit 10k backstabs, and to get the healing numbers you describe you’d have to get SA and Acrobatics to 30 points if you do that your backstab will crit for less than 2k on 2.5k armor.

Your “infamous” 10/0/30/0/30 S/D build is a joke.

10/30/30 D/P haha, HAHA!!!

Let’s see what a warrior Can do:

invurnerable.
…..
…

are you crazy in a friendly way =) it’s always the same discussion and this discussion is annoying, boring and will never change something.

my favorite words are: OP, nerf, buff etc pp. play and have fun. if not. play a different game or create a game with swagg. @swagg: sry bro.

and i shut up my mouth now. have fun

Op, if you want SA nerfed, give us something in return. You realize how dependent some builds are for SA right? Only reason thief CAN run full glass cannon, is because of SA. Not that its recommended, I find little to no trouble with glass thieves except in numbers but really, you can’t call imbalance when you are out numbered…

Give stealth thieves a reason not to stay in stealth for 10+ seconds and reset fights, and then we’ll talk. Oh btw, we have to be in stealth for that regen, and its still less than warrior’s Healing signet. Even if they nerfed it the 8% or w/e, and that’s a grandmaster trait in the healing trait line. 300+ hp/s looks like a lot because we have the lowest health pool tier, so its no wonder why it looks like we take a few seconds to get back to full but it ain’t hard to take us down to low. Just sayin, they don’t call it glass cannon for nothing.

Bazzoong.7145:

Thieves heal to much, haha, whenever you think you seen it all…

Playing warrior damages your brain, something like 10/30/30/0/0 will never hit 10k backstabs, and to get the healing numbers you describe you’d have to get SA and Acrobatics to 30 points if you do that your backstab will crit for less than 2k on 2.5k armor.

Your “infamous” 10/0/30/0/30 S/D build is a joke.

10/30/30 D/P haha, HAHA!!!

10/30/30 could maybe hit a naked glassy ele that high, but no one cares about them.
And a 10/0/30/0/30 sounds like a good p/d condi spec

If there’s one thing I won’t stand for, it’s complaining about Cloak and Dagger as a method of entering stealth.

I mean, really? A monkey can dodge that.

I don’t care for the rest of the thread and don’t want to get dragged in to an endless storm of repugnant bile that Thief discussion always is, so that’s all I want to say.

If C+D is a problem for you, uninstall. I hear there are games that are better catered for your reaction time and gameplay standards, like Hello Kitty Roller Rescue.

10/0/30/0/30 is a decent build I run it on my thie and it is good against other thieves and squishies, it does not have anything close to the damage of a 30 critical strikes thief. There is no way you are 3-5k crits on auto(it would be the last attack to do that not the first 2) unless you are hitting someone really glassy.

It is also very limited in options you have to run a precision main stat rune usually lyssa, you also need full zerk or close to it armor. I run it with 14k HP but I only have a base crit of 40% relying heavily on the fury on steal and furious retaliation. When those fury procs aren’t up your dps drops alot you get a short boost from lyssa when you pop basi.

The damage numbers your talking about only happen on the 3rd auto attack and someone squishy.

BobbyT.7192:

Bazzoong.7145:

Thieves heal to much, haha, whenever you think you seen it all…

Playing warrior damages your brain, something like 10/30/30/0/0 will never hit 10k backstabs, and to get the healing numbers you describe you’d have to get SA and Acrobatics to 30 points if you do that your backstab will crit for less than 2k on 2.5k armor.

Your “infamous” 10/0/30/0/30 S/D build is a joke.

10/30/30 D/P haha, HAHA!!!

10/30/30 could maybe hit a naked glassy ele that high, but no one cares about them.
And a 10/0/30/0/30 sounds like a good p/d condi spec

FYI

10/30/30/0/0 with executioner

With power signet and 6 stacks of might, full stacks, ascended gear and food. Your attack should be around 3800.

2770 power * 1030 wpn damage = 2853100*2.4 = 6846440/2000 armor (other GC cloth or medieum armor class) = 3423 *3 (1.5 base crit damage + 1.5 crit damage from gear, food, traits, sigil, and runes) = 10271.6

If 2200 armor, 9128 damage.
If 2500 armor, 8215 damage.
If 3000 armor, 6846 damage
If 3500 armor, 5868 damage
etc, etc, etc.

Chris.4527:

Lets see what a warrior cant do.

A warrior can not go invisible. (Superior Rune of Infiltration #6.)
A warrior can not support this amount of regen, and burst for 5k or more. (banner regen, healing signet, eviscerate with 3 bars)
A warrior does not have the ability to put poison on to halt others healing as well. (Eviscerate because poison doesn’t do much anyway lol)
A warrior does not have a… 6k? burst heal with mug and withdraw used as well, along with continuous regen. (Healing Surge with 3 bars is 10-11k)

Please try again.

“Why hasn’t S. Arts been nerfed yet?”
Because SA isnt the main problem, it is stealth.

10/0/30/0/30 Is a very powerful build for small fights. However the damage on it is not what you say it is, or even close. the CRITS on s/d with that build are around 3k-3.5k. With backstab it can pump out a 5k-5.5k possibly a 6-7k at the most on a glass target.

Any thief that is using the gain regen on stealth trait is wasting a trait slot anyways, and 90% of thieves don’t even run that. so thieves gain roughly 330hp/sec While in stealth.

Big deal. That means we have to close into our target, and land a clean CnD to go stealth for 4s. To land this CnD the thief probably takes more damage approaching the enemy than it actually will receive in healing while stealth. Not to mention while stealthed, the enemy is regaining his/her cooldowns as well.

There is no such thing as a thief holding this regen in combat. Either we are in stealth gaining a meager 330hp/sec, giving you time to recup as well. Or we are fighting you receiving NO healing.

Either way, a proper lockdown and burst will empty 12k hp pretty kitten ed quick, I assure you.

Black Teagan.9215:

Why hasn’t S. Arts been nerfed yet?
Because SA isnt the main problem, it is stealth.

Ah! Arguing against a class mechanic once again! I’ll counter that with “The problem with mesmers is clones/fantasms” or even better “The problem with engineers is kits”. It’s a ridiculous argument that has no solution. “The problem with winter is it’s cold”…. Deal with it.

Chris.4527:

A thief can heal 1000 hp a second if traited here with shadow refuge.

i’ve stop reading after this …

It doesn’t seem that problematic if you consider how little offence the thief has to keep up this kind of regen-based defence.

Going 30 in Shadow Arts mostly means you will be a lot less dodgy and if you want a good enough dmg output to get through most opponents sustain you will need 30 in CS.

Going 30 in Shadow Arts for rejuvenation and embrace, means you have chosen decent healing and decent condition removal as your mitigation. Yet it’s nothing like for instance engineers with backpack regenerator and stacking blastfinishers with healing turret achieving up to 30k heal per minute, with 0 healing power.
That both beats Shadow Rejuvenation in sustain and burst heal.

Blablabla…nothing wrong with thieves…l2p…and….
DO NOT TOUCH MY TOY !!!!!

I would like to congratulate you, Chris, for getting your post added to the Nerf Wish list…
(See the link in my signature)

Zero Day.2594:

I would like to congratulate you, Chris, for getting your post added to the Nerf Wish list…
(See the link in my signature)

Awesome! Just to bad you use very poor wording with your own bad fallacies. But thanks for the credit.

Carighan.6758:

It doesn’t seem that problematic if you consider how little offence the thief has to keep up this kind of regen-based defence.

The thiefs main offense isnt even touched manipulating his build/character into the right direction with using this.

Hitting 5k or more damage instantly, on a consistent basis is losing offense to you?

Chris.4527:

Zero Day.2594:

I would like to congratulate you, Chris, for getting your post added to the Nerf Wish list…
(See the link in my signature)

Awesome! Just to bad you use very poor wording with your own bad fallacies. But thanks for the credit.

Aside from “Too much healing.” in the “Why” part, it’s all you.

Black Teagan.9215:

“Why hasn’t S. Arts been nerfed yet?”
Because SA isnt the main problem, it is stealth.

For me, and I do see myself as an experienced pvper. Stealth to me is manageable. People can count down when a thief cnds – stealth duration, etc. Which makes stealth, yeah, an issue that I can understand. I do agree with you though, it is overall bad design.

To me, the bigger issue is the insane damage, and the healing that can go along with it. If a thief is running the 10-30-0-0-30 build that some use, not to much trouble, but when shadow arts ridiculous traits are implemented, it becomes quite unreasonable.

Brando.1374:

Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp

if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.

then theres the fact you see the rampaging brute swinging hammers and huge swords at you way before you even notice the thief wich already has his dagger up your rear by the time you notice

Zero Day.2594:

Chris.4527:

Zero Day.2594:

I would like to congratulate you, Chris, for getting your post added to the Nerf Wish list…
(See the link in my signature)

Awesome! Just to bad you use very poor wording with your own bad fallacies. But thanks for the credit.

Aside from “Too much healing.” in the “Why” part, it’s all you.

I need to go back and read my own notes that I wrote when I said CND heals 1500 then, thanks for telling me that, I must be losing my mind!

Zacchary.6183:

Chris.4527:

Lets see what a warrior cant do.

A warrior can not go invisible. (Superior Rune of Infiltration #6.)
A warrior can not support this amount of regen, and burst for 5k or more. (banner regen, healing signet, eviscerate with 3 bars)
A warrior does not have the ability to put poison on to halt others healing as well. (Eviscerate because poison doesn’t do much anyway lol)
A warrior does not have a… 6k? burst heal with mug and withdraw used as well, along with continuous regen. (Healing Surge with 3 bars is 10-11k)

Please try again.

This is grasping at straws buddy.

Which warrior using rune of infilt?

With the selective traits, that I can imagine with my experience – the warrior would have to go heavy into zerk, or do a mix of valk and knights. Which in return will hurt the tankiness making the build not to reliable. That you’re imagining. Plus as stated, warriors are quite easy to poison. When Shadow Arts gives thief consistent condi removal. But please tell me, you’re saying someone who can burst for 5k or more, heal on a consistent basis, poison, yada yada – is equal to this magical build you’re creating?

Poison doesnt do much anyway? I can tell you’ve not done much PVP here, no offense! We all learn somewhere. Poison is insanely good in this game.

And with your last poor statement, I do not think you realize, the warrior running the burst healing spell, he removes his ability to regen highly.

Thanks for the comment! I hope you enjoyed some information.

Bazzoong.7145:

Thieves heal to much, haha, whenever you think you seen it all…

Playing warrior damages your brain, something like 10/30/30/0/0 will never hit 10k backstabs, and to get the healing numbers you describe you’d have to get SA and Acrobatics to 30 points if you do that your backstab will crit for less than 2k on 2.5k armor.

Your “infamous” 10/0/30/0/30 S/D build is a joke.

10/30/30 D/P haha, HAHA!!!

I would love for you to come fight the amazing Maguuma/SOS/FA thieves who use these builds you’re laughing at to their fullest then.

Chris.4527:

Brando.1374:

Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp

if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.

A warrior doesn’t burst for 7-9k with running healing signet to its max. Don’t kid yourself.

War’s regen is obnoxious, but it is getting nerfed as well on the upcoming patch, on the other hand this obnoxious trait is being ignored. A warrior cannot heal for 1000 hp/sec for example.

Thats the point, a warrior has to do NOTHING to get that healing!
while a thief has to invest 30 points into 1 traitline to get a minor heal while in stealth and only when in stealth.

Edit
also is a warrior wanted to "burst" heal they should use healing surge.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge Adrenaline.png Adrenaline: 30
Healing.png Stage 0 heal: 5,885 (0.90)?
Healing.png Stage 1 heal: 6,540 (1.00)?
Healing.png Stage 2 heal: 8,180 (1.25)?
Healing.png Stage 3 heal: 9,820 (1.50)?

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.

Zenith.7301:

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

yes a warrior does not have stealth.
they have highest base hp
High armor
decent wep damage
Lots of stuns
Good amount of blocks/immunity
Crazy good hp regen
good condi removal
All of this is possible in 1 spec

Thief has
Evades s/d and sometimes s/p
Stealth d/p and good d/d
Backstab d/p and d/d
Lowest hp
medium armor

Zenith.7301:

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.

Necro- Wells, marks, DS
Engi- nades, bombs, non-target based kit attacks
Guardian- gs, staff, heck even torch
Warrior- lb, gs, axe, hammer #3 and burst, stomp, etc
Mesmer- counter to thief
Ranger- traps, torch, entangle
elementalist- king of aoe

Aoe attacks aren’t scarce, even my axe/focus d/d necro can locate thieves, and often I have knocked them out of sr and killed them moments later. SA is not op, its a defensive trait line that lets thieves run glassy builds. Even with 30 in SA, thief toughness/armor are not high, they still go down easy due to being the lowest health tier. If a thief is not glassy and they’re running SA, chances are they are running some t-word spec and are there more to just annoy you than kill you. Only reason you should die to such builds is if you’re new and/or easily fooled.

Invisible =/= Invincible. Sooner you understand that the sooner we can see balance vs. flat nerfs because people aren’t willing to L2P.

NinjaEd.3946:

Zenith.7301:

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.

Necro- Wells, marks, DS
Engi- nades, bombs, non-target based kit attacks
Guardian- gs, staff, heck even torch
Warrior- lb, gs, axe, hammer #3 and burst, stomp, etc
Mesmer- counter to thief
Ranger- traps, torch, entangle
elementalist- king of aoe

Aoe attacks aren’t scarce, even my axe/focus d/d necro can locate thieves, and often I have knocked them out of sr and killed them moments later. SA is not op, its a defensive trait line that lets thieves run glassy builds. Even with 30 in SA, thief toughness/armor are not high, they still go down easy due to being the lowest health tier. If a thief is not glassy and they’re running SA, chances are they are running some t-word spec and are there more to just annoy you than kill you. Only reason you should die to such builds is if you’re new and/or easily fooled.

Invisible =/= Invincible. Sooner you understand that the sooner we can see balance vs. flat nerfs because people aren’t willing to L2P.

Ah the always “L2P” issue. I have clocked many many hours on this game, but I am not going to post a “resume” on a forum. I beg of you, please come to the Maguuma/SOS/FA tier, and come fight some ridiculous thieves. The ones who know how overpowered SA is, will even admit to it being OP.

Chris.4527:

NinjaEd.3946:

Zenith.7301:

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.

Necro- Wells, marks, DS
Engi- nades, bombs, non-target based kit attacks
Guardian- gs, staff, heck even torch
Warrior- lb, gs, axe, hammer #3 and burst, stomp, etc
Mesmer- counter to thief
Ranger- traps, torch, entangle
elementalist- king of aoe

Aoe attacks aren’t scarce, even my axe/focus d/d necro can locate thieves, and often I have knocked them out of sr and killed them moments later. SA is not op, its a defensive trait line that lets thieves run glassy builds. Even with 30 in SA, thief toughness/armor are not high, they still go down easy due to being the lowest health tier. If a thief is not glassy and they’re running SA, chances are they are running some t-word spec and are there more to just annoy you than kill you. Only reason you should die to such builds is if you’re new and/or easily fooled.

Invisible =/= Invincible. Sooner you understand that the sooner we can see balance vs. flat nerfs because people aren’t willing to L2P.

Ah the always "L2P" issue. I have clocked many many hours on this game, but I am not going to post a "resume" on a forum. I beg of you, please come to the Maguuma/SOS/FA tier, and come fight some ridiculous thieves. The ones who know how overpowered SA is, will even admit to it being OP.

Me vs D/P is not a hard fight. dont stand in smoke field, predict their movement (since I also have a thief I have a good idea where they could be)

Me vs s/d is a near impossible fight unless they miss time their evade. (most good s/d thieves dont go 30 in sr)

Me vs p/d its a 80% chance I win due to not getting the conditions xfered over fast enough.

im on mag btw

Chris.4527:

inexperienced jabber

A warrior can afford to go heavy into zerk, put on tanky traits and then hit for 5k+ with bursts while allowing for cleanse and great adrenaline gain. Allow me to demonstrate…

With this I can do this:

1.)10k Burst heal and then keep a constant regen for 124 a second.

2.) I can still easily deal burst damage above 5k+ as shown below:

Power * Weapon Str * skill coefficient / Armor * modifiers

2284 * 857 (weapon strength minimum) * 3.0 (eviscerate 3 bars) / 2200 = 2669.165 * 2.65 (crit and +% damage with banner out) = 7073

3.) If I switch out HS for Signet, burst heal is gone but it jumps to a total of 527 a second. This is constant and without having to apply stealth. If I were to calculate HPS between the thief you are describing and the warrior I am describing it would look like this:

Thief (Shadow Refuge, Hide in Shadows, both regen traits in SA and Deception -20% CD)

Hide in Shadows (becuz its better than withdraw): 5540 + 1670 (regen on stealth) + 668 (base regen) + 1292 (HPS in stealth)= 9170

Shadow Refuge (traited): 1690 * 5 = 8450 + 6460 (HPS in stealth) = 10130

Perfectly Timed C&D x 6 (becuz we are maximising HPS right?): 323 * 24 = 7752 + 1670 (stealth HPS) = 9422

9170 + 10130 + 9422 = 28722 / 48 =

598.375 HPS

Warrior (Banner Regen, banner -20% CD and Cleansing ire. Healing signet and Surge trade off)

Healing Signet: 402/s

(or)

Healing Surge: 10,120 / 30 = 337

Banner: 124/s

402/s + 124/s = 527/s (signet)
337/s + 124/s = 461/s (surge)

So you are a little more than half-right about thief’s regen capabilities. But hold on a moment, let’s look at what both my toons did within those 48 seconds of HPS calculation:

Thief
Shadow Refuge > Wait 20 seconds > Hide in Shadows > wait 4 seconds > Cloak and Dagger and then wait 4 seconds x3 > Repeat.

Warrior
Healing Surge (if equipped) > Press 7 > Wait 30 seconds (96 of using healing signet) > Healing Surge (if equipped) > repeat

Yeah a thief can out HPS a warrior but a warrior has 96 seconds to do w/e the warrior wants. The thief, however, cannot leave stealth or even become revealed without suffering loss in HPS and making him useless for the duration of the calculation.

Now Chris, you need to go back to that warrior of yours and be glad you don’t have to bust your kitten for all the OP stuff you have.

Neko.9021:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is indeed quite strong: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow’s_Rejuvenation

However, such a Thief that spams stealth:
-Does not really help in speedclearing dungeons in PvE
-Does not contribute much in a Zerg fight in WvW
-Does not capture or contest points well in PvP

So they really don’t do very much that impacts the game in any meaningful way. They just run around and harass people in hotjoins or in WvW “roaming”. I’m pretty sure that’s why this trait isn’t really considered a problem.

Most players are seriously underestimating the impact of roaming (if done correct, not the trolling type of roaming, but actually doing the supplies and sniping enemy roamers).

About 1/4-1/3 of server points come from stomping. Supply is extremely important for defense and attack. A perma stealthed or extremely high mobile character can capture supply camps and snipe enemy dolyaks with very little risk of getting killed. Now almost every single solo or duo roamer I see falls into these categories, either a stealth-abuser e.g. D/P thief, PU mesmer or extremely high mobility build e.g. greatsword warrior.

I think the maximum duration of stealth should be max 8 seconds in WvWvW. There should be no such thing as perma stealth or long-lasting stealth. Any attack (even if it misses or gets blocked) should result revealed. Revealed should be 4 seconds. My suggestion would still also be in stealth 2/3 of the time, which is a lot.

Brando.1374:

Chris.4527:

NinjaEd.3946:

Zenith.7301:

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.

Necro- Wells, marks, DS
Engi- nades, bombs, non-target based kit attacks
Guardian- gs, staff, heck even torch
Warrior- lb, gs, axe, hammer #3 and burst, stomp, etc
Mesmer- counter to thief
Ranger- traps, torch, entangle
elementalist- king of aoe

Aoe attacks aren’t scarce, even my axe/focus d/d necro can locate thieves, and often I have knocked them out of sr and killed them moments later. SA is not op, its a defensive trait line that lets thieves run glassy builds. Even with 30 in SA, thief toughness/armor are not high, they still go down easy due to being the lowest health tier. If a thief is not glassy and they’re running SA, chances are they are running some t-word spec and are there more to just annoy you than kill you. Only reason you should die to such builds is if you’re new and/or easily fooled.

Invisible =/= Invincible. Sooner you understand that the sooner we can see balance vs. flat nerfs because people aren’t willing to L2P.

Ah the always “L2P” issue. I have clocked many many hours on this game, but I am not going to post a “resume” on a forum. I beg of you, please come to the Maguuma/SOS/FA tier, and come fight some ridiculous thieves. The ones who know how overpowered SA is, will even admit to it being OP.

Me vs D/P is not a hard fight. dont stand in smoke field, predict their movement (since I also have a thief I have a good idea where they could be)

Me vs s/d is a near impossible fight unless they miss time their evade. (most good s/d thieves dont go 30 in sr)

Me vs p/d its a 80% chance I win due to not getting the conditions xfered over fast enough.

im on mag btw

Thats a shame, the best thieves ive ever fought are on mag. To bad you wont be able to fight them!

And also Brando, this is not about SPVP where the main build is 10-30-0-30, SPVP cant support shadow arts since the crit dmg lock, etc.