Guild Wars 2

I know this has been discussed a lot already. With the upcoming patch of course I’ve been spending time on gwskills and theory crafting builds. It just hit me, not for the first time, how much easier it is to build a solid condi build. People say you need crit and yada yada, but we all know you don’t. I sure don’t, and even if I want some, I mix dire and rabid.

I’m so tired of trying to make power builds because I end up having to make all these hard choices between Power/Crit/Ferocity on the one hand and Toughness/Vitality on the other. And on top of that I have to make specific trait/utility decisions to counter conditions. So it ends up being a lot of sacrifice to make a survivable build that can deal damage well.

On other other hand my condition builds don’t have the first problem, and so the second problem doesn’t seem so bad. Sure I still have to take cleanses, but it doesn’t hurt me because I don’t need to trait/utility for defense as much. I can give up a few traits/utility slots for cleanses because my stats work out so much better.

I think this is a nonlinearity that people haven’t really talked about. If I go full power build, I need to rely on traits/utilities more for my survival aside from condi cleanse, so having to also build to defend against condi is harder. It just stacks the deck even more in favor of condition builds.

I don’t think the solution is to nerf condition dmg, but somehow the two types of dmg have to be brought more into line in terms of stat balance and builds. I really think the two types of dmg should be merged.

I’m not complaining either, I really enjoy condi builds and have lots of fun jacking power builds with them that try to burst me and fail and melt flailing. But it will be less fun if everyone starts running condi.

This topic has come up numerous times. The most recent time I recall was when ferocity was being changed.

Imagine how much more balanced this game would have been if base crit damage was 50% and there was no crit damage stat at all. Players could increase it to 80% via traits and select few classes (Thieves for example) would have a trait in the crit damage line to grant them an additional 20% for a total of 100% crit damage.

But yes, you’re absolutely right… conditions in this game are a mess from the ground up. They are applied too easily and too frequently. Not every class is given equal access to condition clears. It’s far too easy to build bunker while also having access to burst condi application.

Personally, I’m expecting this patch to make things worse. The few classes capable of actually handling bunker builds because their burst is so high (Thieves, Warriors, and Eles) got nerfed in their ability to deliver that burst. I wouldn’t be surprised to see more Thieves and Warriors pick up condi oriented builds after the 9th and Ele’s have always been more sustained oriented with D/D as opposed to burst S/*.

Now that all said, there has to be some way to keep condi specs viable in WvW and PvP, and we see how futile they can be in WvW due to all the massed condi removal on Guardians. But yea, something needs to be done to make individual classes better equipped to handle bunker/condi builds imo.

Some classes like Mesmers do benefit from Crit in their Condi builds where they often trait their clones to cause bleeds on crit. Also, Condi in and against zergs is simply not as effective as power based builds.

What are you talking about? What part of the game is this true? Condition>Power?
WvW roaming? Sure condi builds are “better” I simply attribute it to the food and perplexity but there are many power builds represented including thieves/warriors whom can almost always reset the fight against a condition build so.. tie?
WvW zerging? We know that is not the case
PvP? Maybe in uncoordinated soloq or hotjoin or duels? I would still argue more people are running celestial/strength builds than rabid/carrion builds.

Seems largely to be even or not more so in favor of power when you factor in upper tier tPvP and PvE where conditions are still largely useless

Atherakhia.4086:

This topic has come up numerous times. The most recent time I recall was when ferocity was being changed.

But yes, you’re absolutely right… conditions in this game are a mess from the ground up.

Serious question here, because I’d like to understand: if there were a way to implement semi-permanent condi clears for a specific amount of time (ie, a condi clear skill prevents condis from being applied for x number of seconds – I’m thinking like 4 seconds or something), would that at all help or hinder the situation?

I don’t consistently read all forum posts, so I don’t know if anyone’s raised this before.

Because despite all that you list above, power builds still hold many advantages. They have MUCH faster kill times, they tend to have more mobility options, on some classes (mostly Mesmer and Ranger) they can be much longer ranged than any condition build, they scale FAR far better with numbers, and also tend to have more build diversity options.

It’s been said hundreds of times but I’ll say it again… Condition builds are only truely strong in solo roaming and 1v1s. That is it. And even in those fields they are NOT the most common.. I have been recording (as in writing down, not videoing) all my solo roaming encounters the last week to try and proove that this is the case and so far roughly 75% of my fights have been VS power builds, 20% with Condition and 5% with hybrids (though I will admit right now I don’t have enough data for it to be nessesarily representative, but I believe it is).

This “condition meta” people talk about simple doesn’t exist because condition builds only exist in 2 psuedo-gamemodes out of the half dozen or so that there are (Openworld, Fractals, sPvP, tPvP, WvW roaming, WvW zergs, WvW havoc, Dueling), and even in those 2 areas they are in the minority.

Its easy go condi bunker i WvW but most probably realized it isn’t the best against zergs, too many guardians using the “Save yourselves” shout, sure you can take damage but you might end up being useless most of the time.

MSFone.3026:

I know this has been discussed a lot already. With the upcoming patch of course I’ve been spending time on gwskills and theory crafting builds. It just hit me, not for the first time, how much easier it is to build a solid condi build. People say you need crit and yada yada, but we all know you don’t. I sure don’t, and even if I want some, I mix dire and rabid.

I’m so tired of trying to make power builds because I end up having to make all these hard choices between Power/Crit/Ferocity on the one hand and Toughness/Vitality on the other. And on top of that I have to make specific trait/utility decisions to counter conditions. So it ends up being a lot of sacrifice to make a survivable build that can deal damage well.

On other other hand my condition builds don’t have the first problem, and so the second problem doesn’t seem so bad. Sure I still have to take cleanses, but it doesn’t hurt me because I don’t need to trait/utility for defense as much. I can give up a few traits/utility slots for cleanses because my stats work out so much better.

I think this is a nonlinearity that people haven’t really talked about. If I go full power build, I need to rely on traits/utilities more for my survival aside from condi cleanse, so having to also build to defend against condi is harder. It just stacks the deck even more in favor of condition builds.

I don’t think the solution is to nerf condition dmg, but somehow the two types of dmg have to be brought more into line in terms of stat balance and builds. I really think the two types of dmg should be merged.

I’m not complaining either, I really enjoy condi builds and have lots of fun jacking power builds with them that try to burst me and fail and melt flailing. But it will be less fun if everyone starts running condi.

You’re not the first person to notice this.

This is the number one reason why many players have no respect for condition builds and many top streamers are laughed offline and heckled for using them. While some specs will get laughed out of organized dueling for how easy they are too play (PU / clone death mesmer, p/d thief, any spec of anything with perplexity runes), condition builds face lots of ridicule because (1) they have a massive advantage in being able to gear defensively because so few stat points need to be spent to make them strong offensively, and (2) because in some cases, like necros, there simply is not enough condition clearing in the game for anyone to effectively counter the class. There is also the issue of condition food, which forces everyone to use +/- duration food just to level the playing field to something that resembles normal.

While conditions need a lot of improvement for group play in all modes of the game, they need a huge effectiveness reduction in the 1v1 department. lowering base condition damage significantly, while allowing them to crit and having those crits effected by ferocity would be a good start.

Raven.9603:

While conditions need a lot of improvement for group play in all modes of the game, they need a huge effectiveness reduction in the 1v1 department. lowering base condition damage significantly, while allowing them to crit and having those crits effected by ferocity would be a good start.

I’ll ask again: if there were a way to implement semi-permanent condi clears for a specific amount of time (ie, a condi clear skill prevents condis from being applied for x number of seconds – I’m thinking like 4 seconds or something), would that at all help or hinder the situation?

SonOfJacob.7396:

Raven.9603:

While conditions need a lot of improvement for group play in all modes of the game, they need a huge effectiveness reduction in the 1v1 department. lowering base condition damage significantly, while allowing them to crit and having those crits effected by ferocity would be a good start.

I’ll ask again: if there were a way to implement semi-permanent condi clears for a specific amount of time (ie, a condi clear skill prevents condis from being applied for x number of seconds – I’m thinking like 4 seconds or something), would that at all help or hinder the situation?

Diamond Skin
Berserker Stance

SonOfJacob.7396:

Raven.9603:

While conditions need a lot of improvement for group play in all modes of the game, they need a huge effectiveness reduction in the 1v1 department. lowering base condition damage significantly, while allowing them to crit and having those crits effected by ferocity would be a good start.

I’ll ask again: if there were a way to implement semi-permanent condi clears for a specific amount of time (ie, a condi clear skill prevents condis from being applied for x number of seconds – I’m thinking like 4 seconds or something), would that at all help or hinder the situation?

Problem with this is binary situations.

I am a zerker warrior burst build, I go immune to conditions and kill you before it wears off, it was a binary interaction, then I fight you when my stance is on CD, and Im running litttle cleanse, I lose by a landslide.

Fighting against conditions is never for me fun or entertaining… its almost always binary.

Esplen.3940:

Diamond Skin
Berserker Stance

Weird…for Warrior, Berserker Stance tooltip doesn’t say that:

http://imgur.com/FvUDZ8j

And what I’m getting at is much broader…when a condition is removed, there’s a cooldown to when another can be applied…I’m talking cross-profession, not skill-locked based on profession.

Dice Dragon.4326:

Problem with this is binary situations.

I am a zerker warrior burst build, I go immune to conditions and kill you before it wears off, it was a binary interaction, then I fight you when my stance is on CD, and Im running litttle cleanse, I lose by a landslide.

Fighting against conditions is never for me fun or entertaining… its almost always binary.

I understand your point, but I think a 4 second immunity to new conditions after condi clear wouldn’t necessarily upset a 1v1 balance…can you burst down a Dire setup? I would think even a total burst zerk warrior couldn’t muster QUITE that much…maybe I’m wrong. But here’s the thing: I’m not saying it has to be 4 seconds…it could be more or less depending on what makes things balanced.

The only classes with truly viable condition oriented builds for tpvp are necromancers, engineers, and rangers. But even for rangers and engis its generally better to go more hybrid (celestial) or more bunker/sustain (settlers for ranger but not engi). However there is concern as to whether those specs even are truly viable, as even though ToL had a fair amount of condition necromancers, they still had notable shortcomings that could only be mitigated through having really awesome teammates.

Raven.9603:

You’re not the first person to notice this.

This is the number one reason why many players have no respect for condition builds and many top streamers are laughed offline and heckled for using them. While some specs will get laughed out of organized dueling for how easy they are too play (PU / clone death mesmer, p/d thief, any spec of anything with perplexity runes), condition builds face lots of ridicule because (1) they have a massive advantage in being able to gear defensively because so few stat points need to be spent to make them strong offensively, and (2) because in some cases, like necros, there simply is not enough condition clearing in the game for anyone to effectively counter the class. There is also the issue of condition food, which forces everyone to use +/- duration food just to level the playing field to something that resembles normal.

While conditions need a lot of improvement for group play in all modes of the game, they need a huge effectiveness reduction in the 1v1 department. lowering base condition damage significantly, while allowing them to crit and having those crits effected by ferocity would be a good start.

The whole part here about “no respect” is so true, and it’s something I myself do. I don’t care how great of a player people say someone is, the instant I see them rolling around spamming conditions they’re immediately a nobody to me.

If condition builds required some kind of actual management or something (don’t ask me how) that actually required effort to accomplish it would be a different story. That’s ignoring the issue with the armor stats involved, I’m not even going to touch on that again. In short current state of condi builds puts them to the lowest of respect tiers.

And sure, people are going say “I don’t care I play to win” but just admitting that you want to win proves you want to be better than others. It’s an instinctual desire in any competitive game to want to show off and impress people. Conditions? Not impressive.

SonOfJacob.7396:

Esplen.3940:

Diamond Skin
Berserker Stance

Weird…for Warrior, Berserker Stance tooltip doesn’t say that:

http://imgur.com/FvUDZ8j

And what I’m getting at is much broader…when a condition is removed, there’s a cooldown to when another can be applied…I’m talking cross-profession, not skill-locked based on profession.

Your image link is Balanced Stance.

The link to the warrior stance is Berserker Stance.

Most of you guys are making a lot of claims of condition damage out put. Yet offer no actual facts. Your simply making definitive statements with no actual information to support it. Yet all of the previous threads offered comparative videos and math break down of damage out put, that prove most of you wrong.

Then there is this warped mentality hyperbole claiming conditions are too easy to reapply? What is that supposed to mean? I a skill does applies a 3 stacks of bleeds for 375 damage and a similar skull in a power build on the same professuon does 400 direct damage, what logic are you using to cry foul that they can reapply the 3 stacks of bleeds easily if you cleans the first application?

In most cases the complaints some of you are making are irrational. Especially what ever clown blew the smoke about perplexity runes. If you really believe that adds more damage to a build, against player who pay attention, then say might stacking runes, then your are precisely the misinformed roamers I love to run into.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Most of you guys are making a lot of claims of condition damage out put. Yet offer no actual facts. Your simply making definitive statements with no actual information to support it. Yet all of the previous threads offered comparative videos and math break down of damage out put, that prove most of you wrong.

Then there is this warped mentality hyperbole claiming conditions are too easy to reapply? What is that supposed to mean? I a skill does applies a 3 stacks of bleeds for 375 damage and a similar skull in a power build on the same professuon does 400 direct damage, what logic are you using to cry foul that they can reapply the 3 stacks of bleeds easily if you cleans the first application?

In most cases the complaints some of you are making are irrational. Especially what ever clown blew the smoke about perplexity runes. If you really believe that adds more damage to a build, against player who pay attention, then say might stacking runes, then your are precisely the misinformed roamers I love to run into.

finally someone that understand SOMETHING about how to deal with conditions.

Also, conditions deal massive damage over time. Sure you can deal 4k bleeds/sec. If you got max condi damage, max guard stacks, max corruption stax, food buffs, utility buffs + max might stacks. Without that, it is not feasible to reach beyond 3.6k bleeding/sec.

Not to mention that several professions can do that much DPS with some of there auto attacks in PVT gear, yet still cleanse the bleed stacks.

Good luck cleansing a great sword or hammer in the face. Sure you can dodge it. You can also dodge the shrapnel grenade throw that would apply the most bleed stacks. This mentality that conditions can be applied easier then direct damage can be applied is not grounded in reality.

The thing is mostly, why would you be running condition damage? You suffer a fair few setbacks. For one, the cleansing happens constantly and repeatedly. Conditions will still eventually stick, but there’s a fair chance that by then the power damage has long decided who wins or who doesn’t.

Second, the limit. It’s ok as long as you’re the only one or one of two bringing conditions and you use it to hunt outliers who cannot share the cleansing spam. But anything above that, even if your conditions stick, you’re wasting a huge potential.

Third, takes time to kill. Time you don’t want to give anyone. Dead in 2 seconds, next. Waiting for conditions derails the assist-train.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Most of you guys are making a lot of claims of condition damage out put. Yet offer no actual facts. Your simply making definitive statements with no actual information to support it. Yet all of the previous threads offered comparative videos and math break down of damage out put, that prove most of you wrong.

Then there is this warped mentality hyperbole claiming conditions are too easy to reapply? What is that supposed to mean? I a skill does applies a 3 stacks of bleeds for 375 damage and a similar skull in a power build on the same professuon does 400 direct damage, what logic are you using to cry foul that they can reapply the 3 stacks of bleeds easily if you cleans the first application?

In most cases the complaints some of you are making are irrational. Especially what ever clown blew the smoke about perplexity runes. If you really believe that adds more damage to a build, against player who pay attention, then say might stacking runes, then your are precisely the misinformed roamers I love to run into.

Right, this is the forums, so if you disagree with what i wrote you just insult me.

You complain about a lack of facts and math and talk about what has been proven, but havent provided any links yourself.

Do i believe power provides better damage over time? Sure. That was no the point, the point was that conditions take exponentially less stat investment to create a reasonable offense then power builds do, which means they have MUCH more stats to go around for vit, toughness and healing power.

Perplexity provides confusion. Is that the best DPS increase for most condi builds? No, not with runes of krait or runes of undead in the game. but it IS easily an OP runeset. when the 5 stacks land on you, and they will, you have 3 choices: clean immediately, dont use any skills until it wears off, or dont use any skills until some sort of passive clear removes it. The last 2 options are basically fatal, and so is attacking through it. The first option means blowing an active condi clear, which classes have precious few of. If a necro hits you with confusion, do you clear it, or do you save your active clear for signet of spite? What if he spite’s you first and you used your active on that, now you are stuck with 5 stacks. and you cant blow your clears on the 3stack proc because you know the 5 stack proc is coming.

lol @ arguing that perplexity runes are not overpowered. lets try to have a healthy discussion without calling each other clowns.

It is a perfectly healthy discussion. One that has already been had multiple times. Simply because we disagree with you, doesn’t make it unhealthy. It is not my fault you are making proclamation based on your perception of your combat experiemce, and I was basing mine on previously discussed video evidence and reasonably presented skill damage mathematical comparison.

Why would do you expect others to present the fact, again, when you present none yourself? Others can make definitive statements in the same matter you did, which was part of the point.

Lol all you like my friend. It does not change my opinion that perplexity runes are not particularly over powered. They are certainly not over powered when compared to runes of strength.

These are the same few condition build defenders I see all the time. I honestly do not know where you guys get the idea that full solider can dish out the same damage as a full dire. Since I play warrior as you all know, I’ll use warrior as the example

Consider the following:

Soldier:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJMQJARSjMdUFahHOewJagqgC9iHAPwprW9Q0DxAA-TVyFABJcIAK4IAckyvqUCOo6PLcBAA4BAoy+DnpLQUQZE-w

Dire
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU4ZrHeewJagkgC9onBz9pAQdV8ERBA-TlSAABYoEEkDBgi6DA4EAEyDAAV1fewEEHHBgxU+1z+DiCSjA-w

Notice I take out food, so I am not counting the +- 40% condition dur

for solider, a GS auto does 750 on armor of 2600 (a full dire gets 3500)
for dire, a sword auto does 20 sec bleed for 2258 damage that ignore armor

The disadvantage of the bleed is that it can be cleansed, and it takes time. Cleanse means nothing when reapplication greatly out number the number of cleanse available, not to mention cover conditions. Taking longer time also means nothing when these condition can be stacked.

Maybe if the opponent is afk, with optimal rotation, a soldier warrior can put out more dps than a full dire warrior. Otherwise I find it really hard to believe what your claim is true.

I play both power + condition based warrior, I know how easy it is in a condition setup in a small group setting. So please don’t lie to yourselves.

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is a perfectly healthy discussion. One that has already been had multiple times. Simply because we disagree with you, doesn’t make it unhealthy. It is not my fault you are making proclamation based on your perception of your combat experiemce, and I was basing mine on previously discussed video evidence and reasonably presented skill damage mathematical comparison.

Why would do you expect others to present the fact, again, when you present none yourself? Others can make definitive statements in the same matter you did, which was part of the point.

Lol all you like my friend. It does not change my opinion that perplexity runes are not particularly over powered. They are certainly not over powered when compared to runes of strength.

Perplexity runes are too strong. That is my personal opinion, not a fact, but it is a relatively popular opinion, that much isnt really disputable. Why do you think perplexity haters are so prevalent? Is it because the rune is balanced and they just need to L2P?

I will agree with you that strength runes are also too strong and should be nerfed. But are strength runes the source of the might stacking problem, or is this really a problem with the inflated stat value of celestial gear? That i’m not sure of.

I never argued whether or not power or condi does more damage, so “proof” that condi does less damage isnt really very relevant.

Less stats are required to do decent condition damage which allows for condi specs to be disproportionately strong, because they can gear effectively for both survival and damage at the same time, where power specs must split between 3 offensive stats while condi needs only 1 or 1.5. Thats not my personal opinion, its the way gear works. Power takes 3 stats to improve.

I gonna shake my head at continuing to call me out for using anecdotal evidence and personal opinion while you continue to stand on “facts” that you havent cited. If you dont provide sources, then your claims cant be any more substantiated than anyone elses.

its simple. if you can read animations you can dodge most strong attacks, thus making power better.

bigmonto.4215:

These are the same few condition build defenders I see all the time. I honestly do not know where you guys get the idea that full solider can dish out the same damage as a full dire. Since I play warrior as you all know, I’ll use warrior as the example

Consider the following:

Soldier:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJMQJARSjMdUFahHOewJagqgC9iHAPwprW9Q0DxAA-TVyFABJcIAK4IAckyvqUCOo6PLcBAA4BAoy+DnpLQUQZE-w

Dire
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU4ZrHeewJagkgC9onBz9pAQdV8ERBA-TlSAABYoEEkDBgi6DA4EAEyDAAV1fewEEHHBgxU+1z+DiCSjA-w

Notice I take out food, so I am not counting the +- 40% condition dur

for solider, a GS auto does 750 on armor of 2600 (a full dire gets 3500)
for dire, a sword auto does 30 sec bleed for 2258 damage that ignore armor

The disadvantage of the bleed is that it can be cleansed, and it takes time. Cleanse means nothing when reapplication greatly out number the number of cleanse available, not to mention cover conditions. Taking longer time also means nothing when these condition can be stacked.

Maybe if the opponent is afk, with optimal rotation, a soldier warrior can put out more dps than a full dire warrior. Otherwise I find it really hard to believe what your claim is true.

I play both power + condition based warrior, I know how easy it is in a condition setup in a small group setting. So please don’t lie to yourselves.

So does that make you curious as to why there is very rarely a condition warrior in WvW or any of the PvP tournaments?

Raven.9603:

Less stats are required to do decent condition damage which allows for condi specs to be disproportionately strong, because they can gear effectively for both survival and damage at the same time, where power specs must split between 3 offensive stats while condi needs only 1 or 1.5. Thats not my personal opinion, its the way gear works. Power takes 3 stats to improve.

You are absolutely incorrect. Again, this has already been disproven repeatedly

I’m just curious to ask, but when you do your maths to try and compare soldiers to dire builds, what exactly do you use for testing? Are you testing on mobs? Or actual players who move around? Because in actual gameplay against another person there are too many variables for perfect math to be any sort of proof.

bigmonto.4215:

These are the same few condition build defenders I see all the time. I honestly do not know where you guys get the idea that full solider can dish out the same damage as a full dire. Since I play warrior as you all know, I’ll use warrior as the example

Consider the following:

Soldier:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJMQJARSjMdUFahHOewJagqgC9iHAPwprW9Q0DxAA-TVyFABJcIAK4IAckyvqUCOo6PLcBAA4BAoy+DnpLQUQZE-w

Dire
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU4ZrHeewJagkgC9onBz9pAQdV8ERBA-TlSAABYoEEkDBgi6DA4EAEyDAAV1fewEEHHBgxU+1z+DiCSjA-w

Notice I take out food, so I am not counting the +- 40% condition dur

for solider, a GS auto does 750 on armor of 2600 (a full dire gets 3500)
for dire, a sword auto does 20 sec bleed for 2258 damage that ignore armor

The disadvantage of the bleed is that it can be cleansed, and it takes time. Cleanse means nothing when reapplication greatly out number the number of cleanse available, not to mention cover conditions. Taking longer time also means nothing when these condition can be stacked.

Maybe if the opponent is afk, with optimal rotation, a soldier warrior can put out more dps than a full dire warrior. Otherwise I find it really hard to believe what your claim is true.

I play both power + condition based warrior, I know how easy it is in a condition setup in a small group setting. So please don’t lie to yourselves.

Few things wrong with your presentations.

1. That build calculator does not factor in the condition duration cap. You have +115% bleed duration on the Dire build. Correcting for that error, you have 2,139 damage over 18 seconds for each sword bleed.

2. Everyone knows Greatsword’s auto-damage is low, but again, the build calculator does not account for crits, vulnerability, or Might stacks (outside of multiples of 5). With just Signet of Rage’s active, we have 797 listed damage with a 44% chance of dealing an additional 70% damage. This is a very considerable reduction to the gap.

3. DPS is not purely from autos. Outside of the auto, for example, your Dire build DPS is significantly lowered.

4. You are comparing a strong condition damage auto to a weak Power auto. Compare Sword to Axe instead. The difference is much, much lower.

Why cant people get the picture?
Of course condition builds only need 1 stat to improve on. Why would anyone play them if they required 3, so they are glassy and take a lot longer (cleanses not included) to deal sufficient damage? They would be useless.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Raven.9603:

Less stats are required to do decent condition damage which allows for condi specs to be disproportionately strong, because they can gear effectively for both survival and damage at the same time, where power specs must split between 3 offensive stats while condi needs only 1 or 1.5. Thats not my personal opinion, its the way gear works. Power takes 3 stats to improve.

You are absolutely incorrect. Again, this has already been disproven repeatedly

I have no idea what you are talking about. The whole thing? Part of it? What part of what I said was incorrect? Be specific. If something is incorrect, please link me a source that backs you up because no one is going to take your word for it.

• Power takes 3 stats for decent damage output: Power, Precision, Ferocity (True)
• Condition damage takes 1 stat for decent damage output: Condition dmg. (True)
• ^^Sidebar: You could argue that condition might also require minimal precision for crit procs, but 1.3 or 1.5 stats is still less than 3.
• Gear has a fixed amount of stat points. (True)
• If I have to spend more stat points to achieve decent damage with power as opposed to condi, then condi has more stats available for survivability (If P is True, then Q is True).
• Power requires more stat points to achieve decent damage than condi. (P is True).
• Therefore, Q.

Why do you think there is no Dire Amulet in sPvP, yet there are soldier’s amulets?

Stand The Wall.6987:

Why cant people get the picture?
Of course condition builds only need 1 stat to improve on. Why would anyone play them if they required 3, so they are glassy and take a lot longer (cleanses not included) to deal sufficient damage? They would be useless.

But in practice, condi builds dont take much longer to kill people while gaining a massive amount in survivability. Necros can kill 20k HP targets in a single fear lock. My ranger can put 25 bleeds stacks and burning up on a target twice within 30 seconds (flame trap and sb autos with 2x bleed on crit from sigil and sharp edges, plus active and traited sharpening stone; for the second target, replace the double sharpening stone with entangle and maybe QZ for lolz). Usually thats 2 different targets because each one of them will be dead. Engies condi burst is a little slower because they rely on confusion damage.

who’s up for condi’s being able to crit? :P ~runs away

Raven.9603:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Raven.9603:

Less stats are required to do decent condition damage which allows for condi specs to be disproportionately strong, because they can gear effectively for both survival and damage at the same time, where power specs must split between 3 offensive stats while condi needs only 1 or 1.5. Thats not my personal opinion, its the way gear works. Power takes 3 stats to improve.

You are absolutely incorrect. Again, this has already been disproven repeatedly

I have no idea what you are talking about. The whole thing? Part of it? What part of what I said was incorrect? Be specific. If something is incorrect, please link me a source that backs you up because no one is going to take your word for it.

• Power takes 3 stats for decent damage output: Power, Precision, Ferocity (True)
• Condition damage takes 1 stat for decent damage output: Condition dmg. (True)
• ^^Sidebar: You could argue that condition might also require minimal precision for crit procs, but 1.3 or 1.5 stats is still less than 3.
• Gear has a fixed amount of stat points. (True)
• If I have to spend more stat points to achieve decent damage with power as opposed to condi, then condi has more stats available for survivability (If P is True, then Q is True).
• Power requires more stat points to achieve decent damage than condi. (P is True).
• Therefore, Q.

Why do you think there is no Dire Amulet in sPvP, yet there are soldier’s amulets?

*False. Power needs 3 gear stats for maximum damage output. It does not need 3 stats for “decent” damage output.
*Varies with build. On Thieves, this is correct. On Mesmers and Engineers, Precision is very necessary for decent damage.
*True. No debate possible.
*Misleading. This implies that “decent” damage is different with different builds, when, in fact, damage is damage. It’s either “decent” or it’s not. This is also muddied by the fact one of the three stats that condition builds rely upon is very, very rare in gear (nonexistant in armor, backpieces, rings, amulets, and trinkets).
*False
*False

When you have a false premise that you base your argument on, you end up with a false conclusion.

The argument has never been about which deals more damage. It’s about the fact that condition builds require significantly less offensive stat investment to function than power builds, and also that the means to reduce condition damage are very limited in solo/small group settings. Because of this, conditions are far too prominent in smaller fights and players running condition builds can simply outlast the enemy with very little risk involved.

Raven.9603:

But in practice, condi builds dont take much longer to kill people while gaining a massive amount in survivability.

What scientific method did you use to come to this definitive conclusion?

Black Box.9312:

The argument has never been about which deals more damage. It’s about the fact that condition builds require significantly less offensive stat investment to function than power builds

Would you mind offering any video comparison or mathematical evidence to support this?

This was claimed in 27 previous threads made in recent months and not a single poster claiming this offered any evidence to support it. Yet poster upon poster made videos of various professions in both Soldiers and Dire gear and the common consensus turned out to be that the general damage output was fairly congruent. In a few profession it obviously went a little more one direction or the other.

As well, many players took builds in Soldiers gear and Dire gear and broke down the math of comparing possible damage outputs, it also came out to be fairly congruent.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Raven.9603:

But in practice, condi builds dont take much longer to kill people while gaining a massive amount in survivability.

What scientific method did you use to come to this definitive conclusion?

Black Box.9312:

The argument has never been about which deals more damage. It’s about the fact that condition builds require significantly less offensive stat investment to function than power builds

Would you mind offering any video comparison or mathematical evidence to support this?

This was claimed in 27 previous threads made in recent months and not a single poster claiming this offered any evidence to support it. Yet poster upon poster made videos of various professions in both Soldiers and Dire gear and the common consensus turned out to be that the general damage output was fairly congruent. In a few profession it obviously went a little more one direction or the other.

As well, many players took builds in Soldiers gear and Dire gear and broke down the math of comparing possible damage outputs, it also came out to be fairly congruent.

you keep talking about dozens of posts with video proof and mathematical evidence and havent showed us any.

Raven.9603:

You keep talking about dozens of posts with video proof and mathematical evidence and havent showed us any.

Have you looked?

The proof is posted on this very forums, my friend. I feel no obligation to you when you refuse to do that which you are demanding of me. As far as I am concerned, since you were more then happy to make your claims, without actually doing any testing, and made it all off perception alone, your more then welcome to go one believing as you do. Have a nice day.

Pretty simple. Power dominates top tier pvp and you aren’t breaking gates with condition damage…

@Raven

I would like to point out a misconception you seem to have. Dot/condition classes/builds have more surviviability than power classes/builds because it compliments their small ramp up playstyle. Without surviviability, they will pretty much become power build with no burst but with worse surviviability. This is basically how it works in every MMo out there.

Poplolita.2638:

@Raven

I would like to point out a misconception you seem to have. Dot/condition classes/builds have more surviviability than power classes/builds because it compliments their small ramp up playstyle. Without surviviability, they will pretty much become power build with no burst but with worse surviviability. This is basically how it works in every MMo out there.

I can understand that play style, however do you think that there can ever be a time where there’s too much survivability? For what some of these builds put out?

Lucentfir.7430:

Poplolita.2638:

@Raven

I would like to point out a misconception you seem to have. Dot/condition classes/builds have more surviviability than power classes/builds because it compliments their small ramp up playstyle. Without surviviability, they will pretty much become power build with no burst but with worse surviviability. This is basically how it works in every MMo out there.

I can understand that play style, however do you think that there can ever be a time where there’s too much survivability? For what some of these builds put out?

Only 2 conditions build has too much surviviability: Pu mesmer, and p/d thief. They are useless outside of 1v1 though from both a spvp and wvw perspective, so it kind of balance this out.

Lucentfir.7430:

Poplolita.2638:

@Raven

I would like to point out a misconception you seem to have. Dot/condition classes/builds have more surviviability than power classes/builds because it compliments their small ramp up playstyle. Without surviviability, they will pretty much become power build with no burst but with worse surviviability. This is basically how it works in every MMo out there.

I can understand that play style, however do you think that there can ever be a time where there’s too much survivability? For what some of these builds put out?

Sure. When they can ignore you and you aren’t bunker spec is a pretty good time that they have too much survivability.

On a less extreme note, when you are taking advantage of their weaknesses and still can’t make good headway in a fight, then they are probably too durable. What these weaknesses are varies with the build and profession. Note that this statement also applies to any build at all equally well.

For example, conditions will wreck condition engineer, thief, and mesmer builds, usually, but aren’t very good at bringing down a necro or warrior. Necros, however, can be stopped cold with CC and burst right after they leave death shroud. Warrior weaknesses depend greatly on their build.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Black Box.9312:

The argument has never been about which deals more damage. It’s about the fact that condition builds require significantly less offensive stat investment to function than power builds

Would you mind offering any video comparison or mathematical evidence to support this?

This was claimed in 27 previous threads made in recent months and not a single poster claiming this offered any evidence to support it. Yet poster upon poster made videos of various professions in both Soldiers and Dire gear and the common consensus turned out to be that the general damage output was fairly congruent. In a few profession it obviously went a little more one direction or the other.

As well, many players took builds in Soldiers gear and Dire gear and broke down the math of comparing possible damage outputs, it also came out to be fairly congruent.

Nice work on completely assuming what I said without actually reading or interpreting it.

bigmonto.4215:

The disadvantage of the bleed is that it can be cleansed, and it takes time. Cleanse means nothing when reapplication greatly out number the number of cleanse available, not to mention cover conditions. Taking longer time also means nothing when these condition can be stacked.

Actually umm… yeah, they kinda do. Everything, in fact.

The whole point of damage-over-time is that you gain some advantage in return for needing time to kill or remove a target. In many games it’s raw damage, in GW2 it’s a mix of circumventing armour and side effects (poison for example, but also the non-condition damage of your attacks).

What does the delay cost you? Depends on the situation, but it could be one or more of the following:

• Loss of target opportunity. Had you killed your target faster (that is, with direct damage), you would have run off to find someone else in need of help and been able to kill their enemy before they got killed. Upscaled, this is a strategic disadvantage due to having delayed your kill needlessly.
• Loss of avoidance. If you had no longer been fighting there, the 5-man team running past would have not been able to gank you down. This is the inverse from the previous point. It doesn’t exist much in upscaled because it’s too easy to know where a zerg is.
• Loss of kill window. DoTs take time. This allows CDs to recycle. That enemy with 2000 HP left? One direct attack downs them, your DoTs take 4 seconds to do that, just allowing them to heal and cleanse as a result. You could have ended the fight right there and then if not for the reliance on DoTs.
• Loss of attacks. A cleanse, even when replaced, is still a removal of damage otherwise taken. It is equivalent to a partial block (or a full block if applied immediately). This is without need of context. You took 15k worth of condi damage, after ~2,5k you cleanse it all, you avoided 12,5k damage. No matter how fast it can get reapplied. Your opponent has a fourth form of full-damage-avoidance which can be scaled to work partially if they react slowly. It’s more user-friendly than blocks or dodges in that regard.

Now, DoTs are not without re-compensation. You circumvent armour, and most importantly you gain the psychological advantage of not inducing a state of panikittenil after you already applied your damage. Doesn’t happen during it.

The meta is bunker/hybrid abusing might stacking

That is not a power meta.

You fight these builds and more often than not the majority of their pressure is conditions

T raw.4658:

The meta is bunker/hybrid abusing might stacking

That is not a power meta.

“The” meta is subjective, and IMO it is a mix of GWEN and GWE, depending on what part of the game I’m in right now.
“The” meta is very power based by a vote of 2 to 1, and that’s discounting sub-modes and player interaction. Given lessons from other games we can probably guesstimate “The” meta to be ~80% GWE.

So no, for the most part conditions are woefully underpowered as a result of general game mechanics coupled with life-expectancy in a battle being too short for conditions to do damage.

T raw.4658:

The top teams in PvP use the builds I described.

If you’re talking WvW then it’s a whole new ball game when numbers get to over 10 vs 10. Smaller scale tho hybrid/bunker trumps all

Yes well, how would it not when many skills scale with the number of recipients? Cleansing especially. The game is hardly meant to be played smallest-scale (which is why it makes so little sense that the dev team seems to focus so much effort into the sPvP-side of it). The whole combat system works on multiplying power in teams left and right and centre with whole-group beneficial effects, combo fields, area effects on many otherwise single-target-used attacks (cleaving melee is an example), piercing line attacks, etc.

I’m sorry, but while I enjoy PvP every so often, I can’t figure out how it even ended up ingame. It seems to go against a lot of design elements of the underlying combat and clkittenouts.

Carighan.6758:

T raw.4658:

The top teams in PvP use the builds I described.

If you’re talking WvW then it’s a whole new ball game when numbers get to over 10 vs 10. Smaller scale tho hybrid/bunker trumps all

Yes well, how would it not when many skills scale with the number of recipients? Cleansing especially. The game is hardly meant to be played smallest-scale (which is why it makes so little sense that the dev team seems to focus so much effort into the sPvP-side of it). The whole combat system works on multiplying power in teams left and right and centre with whole-group beneficial effects, combo fields, area effects on many otherwise single-target-used attacks (cleaving melee is an example), piercing line attacks, etc.

I’m sorry, but while I enjoy PvP every so often, I can’t figure out how it even ended up ingame. It seems to go against a lot of design elements of the underlying combat and clkittenouts.

Wow nice use of that flag button

Dev team balances for PvP no WvW. You don’t like it then take it up with them. Until then the “meta” that decides balance has nothing to do with power builds.

Also WvW “meta” is a Bunker “meta” as well….Hell the best roaming builds are condi bunker or hybrid.

What class you running btw where this condi requires some thought process

T raw.4658:

Carighan.6758:

T raw.4658:

The top teams in PvP use the builds I described.

If you’re talking WvW then it’s a whole new ball game when numbers get to over 10 vs 10. Smaller scale tho hybrid/bunker trumps all

Yes well, how would it not when many skills scale with the number of recipients? Cleansing especially. The game is hardly meant to be played smallest-scale (which is why it makes so little sense that the dev team seems to focus so much effort into the sPvP-side of it). The whole combat system works on multiplying power in teams left and right and centre with whole-group beneficial effects, combo fields, area effects on many otherwise single-target-used attacks (cleaving melee is an example), piercing line attacks, etc.

I’m sorry, but while I enjoy PvP every so often, I can’t figure out how it even ended up ingame. It seems to go against a lot of design elements of the underlying combat and clkittenouts.

Wow nice use of that flag button

Dev team balances for PvP no WvW. You don’t like it then take it up with them. Until then the “meta” that decides balance has nothing to do with power builds.

Also WvW “meta” is a Bunker “meta” as well….Hell the best roaming builds are condi bunker or hybrid.

What class you running btw where this condi requires some thought process

Condition builds require no more thought than Power builds. Against an opponent that doesn’t know how to counterplay you, any build requires less thought.

My own documentation while WvW roaming also shows a majority of roamers being Power builds rather than Condition.

T raw.4658:

Dev team balances for PvP no WvW. You don’t like it then take it up with them. Until then the “meta” that decides balance has nothing to do with power builds.

Also WvW “meta” is a Bunker “meta” as well….Hell the best roaming builds are condi bunker or hybrid.

What class you running btw where this condi requires some thought process

I run power shatter variants, if you got to know. Change more or less daily. Been running, um, since release:

• Blackwater (that was back when PU gave a boon every 3s, not every 1s, so before Natsu made the actual build, but 20/20/30 was a concept long before that :P ).
• Full power phantasm.
• Full raid bot with phantasms.
• Condi shatter.
• Full interrupt.

Might be 2-3 more in there, but then I didn’t run them for long.

I’m sorry, but the condi builds don’t cut it. And from the changes we see, I’m not sure I’d even agree ANet balances based on modes where condition damage can do something good. That’s partially because it never does anything good outside of hotjoin matches and low-skill WvW solo roaming. And looking at the changes they make, they seem to be aware that condition-effects need quite a bit of help. :P

Thinking back to it, I don’t think the ToL had much condi damage in the higher teams, either. At least I remember Mesmer being the usually double ranged shatter which is hardly a condi build.

It’s always a bit surprising to me when people complain about conditions in general because apart from when you set out into PvP (either mode), you don’t really see conditions any more. They’re just… gone. They’re there ofc because well, your attacks happen to apply them but focusing on them and stat-ing for them is pretty much the last thing you do. :P