Guild Wars 2

More of one mechanic does not mean different mechanic

STRanger.5120:

Hmm, you really don’t see a difference between a simple weapon swap and attunement switching?
(your clue is written in bold FYI)

Except having 2 more options which you can swap to and no skill canceling, no. More options does not mean more mechanics.

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

Hmm, you really don’t see a difference between a simple weapon swap and attunement switching?
(your clue is written in bold FYI)

Except having 2 more options which you can swap to and no skill canceling, no. More options does not mean more mechanics.

Well, why don’t you just delete the Elementalist and roll a Warrior then? If you think that super-simple means better…
I like challenge and complex class-mechanics, I’m a fan of real RPG games, not these modern simplified games which deny everything what RPG means. If I cannot have a real RPG, I want at least a class that is not about facerolling everything, smashing one button and getting good results by that.
Also, how can I explain the beauty of the Elementalists mechanic if you can’t see any difference in that, compared to the easiest class in the game?

Haviz already has a warrior

STRanger.5120:

Well, why don’t you just delete the Elementalist and roll a Warrior then? If you think that super-simple means better…
I like challenge and complex class-mechanics, I’m a fan of real RPG games, not these modern simplified games which deny everything what RPG means. If I cannot have a real RPG, I want at least a class that is not about facerolling everything, smashing one button and getting good results by that.
Also, how can I explain the beauty of the Elementalists mechanic if you can’t see any difference in that, compared to the easiest class in the game?

So you just lost your arguments and turned to rhetorics? On the sidenote, ele can smash one button and get even better results than doing this on warrior. The ‘beauty’ of ele is that you work harder to get worse results and that needs to be fixed.

haviz.1340:

So you just lost your arguments and turned to rhetorics? On the sidenote, ele can smash one button and get even better results than doing this on warrior. The ‘beauty’ of ele is that you work harder to get worse results and that needs to be fixed.

I haven’t lost anything m8, and I refuse to consider some LH focused “build” a proper way to play the class.
However, I agree with you in case of Ele needing a fix, that’s true

STRanger.5120:

I haven’t lost anything m8, and I refuse to consider some LH focused “build” a proper way to play the class.
However, I agree with you on the case that Ele needs to be fixed, that’s true

I didn’t mean LH build but staff build. But I use neither of them, prefering 30/30/0/0/10 which hardly is easy but will not produce similar results to warrior or guardian.

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

I haven’t lost anything m8, and I refuse to consider some LH focused “build” a proper way to play the class.
However, I agree with you on the case that Ele needs to be fixed, that’s true

I didn’t mean LH build but staff build. But I use neither of them, prefering 30/30/0/0/10 which hardly is easy but will not produce similar results to warrior or guardian.

Currently I’m running 30/20/0/0/20, most of the time with staff, and that’s nowhere near the one-button build you’re talking about, I still support my teammates with might stacks and fury, provide water fields if needed, help with or kite mobs myself etc. while still having a decent damage output and having access to blasting staff or perma-vigor if I decide to use scepter or daggers.
Yeah, the build is squishy as hell, but at least it’s fun to play, not like a warrior boredom.

Define decent please

STRanger.5120:

Currently I’m running 30/20/0/0/20, most of the time with staff, and that’s nowhere near the one-button build you’re talking about, I still support my teammates with might stacks and fury, provide water fields if needed, help with or kite mobs myself etc. while still having a decent damage output and having access to blasting staff or perma-vigor if I decide to use scepter or daggers.
Yeah, the build is squishy as hell, but at least it’s fun to play, not like a warrior boredom.

Assumption that you stay in the back is correct?

Zelyhn.8069:

Define decent please

8k dps by estimate with a good group, there’s unfortunately no damage meter for this game… And everybody knows that the spreadsheets don’t reflect the real dps achieved.
And of course, it also depends on the group quality. If you have 3x signet GS warrior in it, you hardly can push out that much….

STRanger.5120:

Zelyhn.8069:

Define decent please

8k dps by estimate with a good group, there’s unfortunately no damage meter for this game… And everybody knows that the spreadsheets don’t reflect the real dps achieved.
And of course, it also depends on the group quality. If you have 3x signet GS warrior in it, you hardly can push out that much….

Nobody knows that

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

Currently I’m running 30/20/0/0/20, most of the time with staff, and that’s nowhere near the one-button build you’re talking about, I still support my teammates with might stacks and fury, provide water fields if needed, help with or kite mobs myself etc. while still having a decent damage output and having access to blasting staff or perma-vigor if I decide to use scepter or daggers.
Yeah, the build is squishy as hell, but at least it’s fun to play, not like a warrior boredom.

Assumption that you stay in the back is correct?

No, I’m moving because I want those might/fury stacks too m8 And of course banner bonuses etc. etc…

Zelyhn.8069:

STRanger.5120:

Zelyhn.8069:

Define decent please

8k dps by estimate with a good group, there’s unfortunately no damage meter for this game… And everybody knows that the spreadsheets don’t reflect the real dps achieved.
And of course, it also depends on the group quality. If you have 3x signet GS warrior in it, you hardly can push out that much….

Nobody knows that

Too bad for those “nobodies”, I know that for sure…

Even then, you have 8k, other staff build has about 16k.

haviz.1340:

Even then, you have 8k, other staff build has about 16k.

You mean that unplayable and totally spreadsheeted build which DPS heavily depends on having 25might stacks and perma-fury, while enemies have 25 vulnerability and thousand more conditions met all the time?
That one when if the enemy just glance at you, you’re dead? Well, GL with that

Under those conditions, I would dish out much more even with my build, and I could even survive

STRanger.5120:

You mean that unplayable and totally spreadsheeted build which DPS heavily depends on having 25might stacks and perma-fury, while enemies have 25 vulnerability and thousand more conditions met all the time?
That one when if the enemy just glance at you, you’re dead? Well, GL with that

Under those conditions, I would dish out much more even with my build, and I could even survive

10 points wasted in arcane confirms that. And I’m pretty sure I can do okay with no vitality in the hardest content this game offers.

yes our skills are overall weak. My mesmer (which has no ascended gear) has lower armor and lower attack values but kills way faster than my Ele and of course with much less effort.
I won’t even bring into the discussion the results of my thief or warrior, that would be beating a dead horse.
Anyway, the feeling I have is that -for example- Mesmer’s skills have some kind of “internal multiplier” that makes them really way more effective in actual combat.

This thread is much due, because only through the analysis of “skill effectiveness” in real scenarios we can pinpoint the weakest spots of Elementalist class and hopefully have hopes to see them fixed someday.

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

You mean that unplayable and totally spreadsheeted build which DPS heavily depends on having 25might stacks and perma-fury, while enemies have 25 vulnerability and thousand more conditions met all the time?
That one when if the enemy just glance at you, you’re dead? Well, GL with that

Under those conditions, I would dish out much more even with my build, and I could even survive

10 points wasted in arcane confirms that. And I’m pretty sure I can do okay with no vitality in the hardest content this game offers.

Well, you can prove it, go ahead Upload a video

STRanger.5120:

Well, you can prove it, go ahead Upload a video

An ultimate forum warrior challenge. You can check it yourself, just don’t die because of awesomeness you will feel while running it.

The angrier they get, the more emoticons they add.

Those emoticons show joy, just look at him.

haviz.1340:

10 points wasted in arcane confirms that. And I’m pretty sure I can do okay with no vitality in the hardest content this game offers.

You keep calling points in arcane wasted, but 10% boon duration effectively means that for each might stack you get, you also get +3.5 Power and Condition damage. Given that a good ele build has at least 10, you’re getting 35 Power and Condition damage from Arcana alone. Add the Fury trait to that and the dps you get from 10 points Arcane matches that of 10 points Fire.

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

Well, you can prove it, go ahead Upload a video

An ultimate forum warrior challenge. You can check it yourself, just don’t die because of awesomeness you will feel while running it.

No challenge at all, I would just like to see it, that’s all. If you can’t prove it, it never happened, simple

ThiBash.5634:

You keep calling points in arcane wasted, but 10% boon duration effectively means that for each might stack you get, you also get +3.5 Power and Condition damage. Given that a good ele build has at least 10, you’re getting 35 Power and Condition damage from Arcana alone. Add the Fury trait to that and the dps you get from 10 points Arcane matches that of 10 points Fire.

Imagine I can do same thing with persisting flames without butchering my dps.

STRanger.5120:

No challenge at all, I would just like to see it, that’s all. If you can’t prove it, it never happened, simple

It works both way.

Just do the maths yourself if you don’t trust my ability to add numbers together.
I mean it’s not like I have published a calculator is it?
Oh yes it’s a spreadsheet, so maths… well it’s not like the game engine is using maths too is it?

Anyway, staff’s damage is in fire. Anything else is not decent. Trust me, I have tried and tried, there’s just nothing to do with this weapon.
Arcana is awful … what is 10% boon duration compared to something like 100 power and 10% damage in fire?

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

No challenge at all, I would just like to see it, that’s all. If you can’t prove it, it never happened, simple

It works both way.

So basically, no, you can’t prove it, thanks

You know, I wasn’t boasting here that I can play the most difficult content ingame with the most squishiest build ingame, but you did…
Also, I asked for proof first.
And instead of proving, you are just blabbing all over the place and making excuses (that will come soon I guess)

STRanger.5120:

So basically, no, you can’t prove it, thanks

You know, I wasn’t boasting here that I can play the most difficult content ingame with the most squishiest build ingame, but you did…
Also, I asked for proof first.
And instead of proving, you are just blabbing all over the place and making excuses (that will come soon I guess)

Do you want a video of fotm 79? Lupi solo perhaps? I’ll do it once I get pc that can handle more than one minute of recording. Until then you can watch lupi killed in 13s.

And I don’t play the most squishiest build, Zelyhn does.

Plus, it doesn’t matter how squishy you are, you will be one shotted by pretty much everything there.

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

So basically, no, you can’t prove it, thanks

You know, I wasn’t boasting here that I can play the most difficult content ingame with the most squishiest build ingame, but you did…
Also, I asked for proof first.
And instead of proving, you are just blabbing all over the place and making excuses (that will come soon I guess)

I’ll do it once I get pc that can handle more than one minute of recording.

Here goes the excuses, like I had foreseen. The Force is strong with me today

Also, you mentioned 16k DPS with STAFF build, that’s more than Zelyhn calculated with the most squishy build I’ve ever seen.
So if you want to do more, you are most probably even squishier than him…
Killing Lupi in 13s by a glitch is nowhere near something I would brag about, and so should you (even if that’s not your video, I don’t know).

He used the G word … ruuuuuuun !!!

Zelyhn.8069:

He used the G word … ruuuuuuun !!!

Yeah, I have the G word and I’m not afraid to use it!!!

You can’t just compare lighting whip to another skill. Elementalists don’t just go around spamming lighting whip. They have to switch to other attunements which greatly reduces their damage output if they want to survive.

I tried to be reasonable. Please, continue to play how you want while wasting your time on your ‘support’ that’s completely useless while dealing hilarious amount of damage.

I’ll try one more time. Current pve content does not promote soft cc ele staff is capable of. Probably more than 75% of staff skills are completely useless excluding one of two uses in pve. Until that changes there is absolutely no reason to be an unique snowflake to feel that you can play decently. You can play how you want, no one will forbid you but you should be aware it’s not optimal at all.

Old lupi solo with ‘squishy’ build from February.

Photoshopped

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

Exactly, so any comparison of skills itself is really pointless, because of class mechanics.
Only skills that can be compared to each other somehow are utilities (blink vs Lightning flash f.e.) And even then, the other options of the certain class should be taken in account…
@OP: Sorry, but this discussion is hardly leading anywhere, the game mechanics are too complex for that.

It’s not pointless because ele has no mechanics different from warrior.

Stuff which Warrior lacks:
- pets to summon
- weapons to summon which can actually be used to attack/do stuff
- anti-projectile (AoE)
- teleport
- more weapon skills
- true invulnerability

Just wondering, what do you actually want from the Elementalist?

Wethospu.6437:

haviz.1340:

STRanger.5120:

Exactly, so any comparison of skills itself is really pointless, because of class mechanics.
Only skills that can be compared to each other somehow are utilities (blink vs Lightning flash f.e.) And even then, the other options of the certain class should be taken in account…
@OP: Sorry, but this discussion is hardly leading anywhere, the game mechanics are too complex for that.

It’s not pointless because ele has no mechanics different from warrior.

Stuff which Warrior lacks:
- pets to summon
- weapons to summon which can actually be used to attack/do stuff
- anti-projectile (AoE)
- teleport
- more weapon skills
- true invulnerability

Just wondering, what do you actually want from the Elementalist?

bangs for the bucks

Wethospu.6437:

Stuff which Warrior lacks:
- pets to summon
- weapons to summon which can actually be used to attack/do stuff
- anti-projectile (AoE)
- teleport
- more weapon skills
- true invulnerability

Just wondering, what do you actually want from the Elementalist?

Those are different skills, not mechanics. And If I’d want to list what ele lacks:
- condition immunity
- banners
- decent cooldowns (compare Charge to Windborne Speed, Shockwave to Zealot’s Embrace and best one Fire Grab to Eviscerate)
- massive damage
- survivability
- mobility
- risk to reward ratio

This list is not for pve only.

So can you explain what you meant then?

“ele has no mechanics different from warrior”
What is this supposed mean? Both have access to weapon skills and Adrenaline is crap? Why does that justify direct comparisons when both classes have access to different stuff?

I’m not denying some skills are too weak but balance is bit more complex than isolating 2 skills.

As mechanics I mean shatters, stealth, adrenaline, virtues, death shroud. In other words, profession specific mechanics. Ele has 4 weapon swaps but it pays with increased cooldown of swap alone (16s) and much longer cooldowns on not only weapon skills but also utility while being typically worse versions of similar skills of other professions. The reason for that is that hybrid builds need to be punished for being a hybrid but as of this moment this game does not support or promote hybrid playstyle making ele mostly redundant which can be observed in pvp. In pve ele is made into full glass cannon that cannot support itself and is hardly a hybrid.

To add last note, during 2011 demo in korea, ele had attunement cooldown at about 5s but was deemed too strong at that point.

Wethospu.6437:

Just wondering, what do you actually want from the Elementalist?

Definitely not this:

Wethospu.6437:

No way I’m going to play a build which is about spamming one skill.