Guild Wars 2

I would disagree that all players should be able to play equally. Even Pong allows for a difference in player skill. All classes should be accessible to all players, but equally all classes should have a degree of mastery available for those who develop their skills and understanding of the class/game. I do not believe the Elementalist does this. It has a large learning curve, then also requires a high degree of player skill just to be playable. Honestly, those players who find the Elementalist `fine’ clearly have the skill that they should be far more dominant.

I am not sure that many players are calling for the Elementalist to be dumbed down. There are many calling for it to be improved, but it seems to be a minority who want attunements completely removed. The main complaint is that, as someone else said, it takes the Elementalist 20 skills to do what other classes can do in 3. If an Elementalist player uses 20 skills intelligently, they should be wrecking a player who only uses 3! As has been discussed to death in many other threads, the Elementalist suffers from buggy skills, overly-long animations, pitiful auto-attacks and poor trait design/synergy. The class does not need dramatic change, but it does need change.

Another major issue in this discussion is that there are a variety of VERY different ways to play the game. World PvE, Dungeons, sPvP, tPvP, WvWvW. Everyone is discussing from the basis on one of these, but not always the same one. When you have, say, a Dungeon player complaining about survivability and a WvWvW player just goes `lol, stand back and nuke, noob’, it does nothing for the betterment of this class.

Veenix.5248:

This probably stems from the Animations.

I cant overstate this enough, But skills like Lava Font, that takes far to long to build up and almost literally tells people don’t stand here before it starts to deal damage. Meteor showers random damage locations, Burning speeds blast radius makes it very hard to land in an open field due to the damage only being on the end location. Dragon’s Tooth 4 second animation. Churning Earth’s long cast time practically forces you to use lightning flash just so you can hit people that back pedal out of the radius. Eruption like lava font advertises players to GTFO before it even does damage.

I think thats the underlying issue with Elementalist atm. Ground targeting and our heavy reliance on it. Do we never land skills? no. But the effort taken to just get skills to land on half competent players then coming out with lesser then average damage is a problem.

Am not saying it should be instant, just faster then it is now. I get it people need some time to react. But as it is now Elementalist are penalized just for players, playing the game. AkA just moving, not dodging just moving.

That’s a good point.

Two observations:
-First, good game design balances effort&reward, so a “can’t miss” skill (less effort) should have less reward than a “can be avoided” skill (more effort).
-Second, not all skills should be “can’t miss”. Having some be “avoidable” allows the use of stuns/slows/knockdowns/etc. to make the “avoidable” skills hit. This increases the effect of player skill — a good thing. All classes should be ~balanced in this, of course (ie no class should have significantly more of their skills be “avoidable”).

Thank you for your polite and well-reasoned post!

Also, elementalists are not that hard to play. They’re hard to master, yes, but they’re not that hard to play. Elementalists skills are very simple and have little subtlety behind them, because they’re meant to be combined together.

An average joe who chains his air CC skills and then his fire skills for a burst should get as much success at killing as the average joe that spams pistolwhip and heartseeker. But he doesn’t.

Don’t think that I want elementalists to be dumbed down. But if elementalists skills were mathematically stronger, your dumb average joe would have as much or almost as much success by chaining bursts as any other average joe would have with any other profession. Afterall, Mesmers are hard to master, and there you go, lots of newbs winning with them against other newbs. Even the thief is hard to master, but once again, lots of thief newbs winning against other newbs. We should take this into account when we’re discussing the powerlevel of an elementalist.

It’s easy to burst with an Elementalist, once you know it. Dodging exists in all professions. Timing your skills right and sacrificing one thing for another thing is also an inherent mechanic of initiative, shatter, etc, isn’t it? Even mesmer’s utilities are far more subtle and indirect than elementalist’s, generally.

Elementalists are harder to play with than other professions, because they’re weaker. They’re not inherently that hard to play (they’re hard to master, yes, but not to play). If average joes can’t handle an elementalist no matter what, but can dominate pvp against other professions with the more indirect, more subtle mesmer, then it’s because the elementalist is not strong enough (or other professions are too strong, take your pick).

Elric of Grans.7684:

…I am not sure that many players are calling for the Elementalist to be dumbed down…

I see a distressing number of posters saying the ele is either broken (no amount of effort/skill lets an ele match an ‘easy’ class) or that it takes significantly more effort to achieve the same effect as some other classes.

I see these folks then call for ‘fixes’ for the ele (ie make eles easier). I can’t remember seeing any of these folks calling for ‘fixes’ for the ‘easier’ classes (ie make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’) as their preferred method for achieving balance. Have I missed these, and if so, do they outnumber the ‘make eles easier’ posters?

When challenged, folks can respond in several ways, including expending the effort to buckle down and improve their game, or expending the same effort to complain to have the game made easier. Bringing the ‘easier’ classes up to eles level is the former, advocating bringing the ele down is the latter.

DiogoSilva.7089:

-snip-

You forget one important aspect..the average joe using thief got fewer skills at disposal therefore they’ll have greater effect than the average joe using ele but only 20% of the skills.

It’s a simple math calculation:

1) Tim play thief and deal 2k with 3 skills
2) Jon play ele and deal 2k with 10 skills
3) Matt play ele and use only 5 skills

If Matt would do the same dmg of Jon with 5 skills, then Jon would become OP compared to Tim, now what happen is that Matt will feel UP compared to Tim and will start complain and will call Jon an elitist jerk if the latter try to explain to him that he needs to use 10 skills to deal as much dmg as Tim.

Another reason why you do less dmg is because of water heals and boon, effectively an ele can achieve 20+ s of regeneration and protection and 9+ stacks of might , on top of other great boons like vigor and fury

Nick Danger: See it this way: when six professions are at a better state, and two (elem, necro) are at a worse state, what should you do, nerf everything because of two professions, or buff two because of everything else? Have dervs overnerfed two professions, or have dervs overbuffed six of them?

What is the “norm”? Aren’t two profesions out of eight the exception, and not the rule?

I think elementalists should be easier to play with, but not easier to master. Likewise, I think several professions should be harder to play than they currently are. And I believe a lot of this comes from balance. Buff up the eles, and it’ll be easier to play, but you’ll still need to master it against good players. Tone down thieves, mesmers, etc, and players will require more effort to play with them.

Arheundel: Elementalists have twice the skills. That means they should require twice the skills to get the same effects, if we go by mathematics alone. If a thief can win against a newb with 3 skills, an elementalist should win against a newb with 6. But a thief can spam those 3 skills, while an elementalist will have their 6 skills put under a high recharge.

Although it is true that elementalists are (mildly) compensated for their diversity, it is not always so. Let’s look at D/D. How much defense do you have with it? Let’s be honest: little to none. You have some auras that are situationally useful with some high recharges, and about 2-3 defensive skills more.

We’ll have to keep in mind that an elementalist is filled with drawbacks to balance them out. High recharges, high casting times, easily avoidable bursts, short-term defenses, terrible passive defense, and must sacrifice power for defense or vice-versa. In contrast, thieves have harder-to-avoid bursts, 8k+ backstabs to start the battles with before you even realize, short activations, stealth half the time, etc. And means to regain initiative faster.

To keep in mind that I’ve won against thieves 1vs1, when they’re casual players. But there’s clearly a lack of balance between both professions. Elementalists have a huge list of drawbacks for them in addition to the fact that they already must use twice the skills to do the same thing. Elementalists require more time (high casts, more skills), have less margin for error (due to high recharges, which is a deal-breaker against good players who WILL dodge your skills and cc you), and must interrupt their own bursts to survive.

Why does everyone always say “Oh, just roll another class!” No, I don’t want to. I got this game FOR the elementalist. I loved the concept of switching through attunements instead of being spec-locked into only using one as other MMOs do. I have other chars, I have a thief, a warrior, and an engineer. If anything, the Engineer’s learning curve is just as complicated (if not more so, with its myriad of kits and abilities available to it) except it does MUCH more damage than my Ele EVER could. I ran a full crit build on my engineer and could press 3-4 keys and kill (most) targets; and if I didn’t, the cooldowns were low enough that I could survive long enough to improvise and still come out on top. The Elementalist does not have that luxury; even with a full glass cannon build, the class ends up being more of a glass pea shooter, or maybe a glass potato gun. Certainly not a cannon.

The class needs fixed. It just does. Yeah, in a support role its phenomenal; can provide support better than a Guardian in some cases, and it can even be a bunker despite being the LOWEST base survivability class in the game (lowest base HP, light armor) but it really needs the nerf that was given to it after BWE2 to be removed. I’d like to be able to actually do damage with staff. And don’t say “staff is only for support” because the spec should determine a weapon’s role, not the weapon itself, aside from engagement range. A thief can equip pretty much whatever weapon he wants and do decent damage with a myriad of well designed abilities. A warrior as well, and don’t get me started on mesmers. Even Guardians do more damage than an Ele in some cases, and their name would imply damage isn’t exactly their forte.

Please, PLEASE stop white knighting for aNet and petition them to fix the class already.

Also: when comparing Ele to other classes, use the engineer as a basis. They have just as much diversity, with 6 seperate kits vs our 4 attunements PLUS their equipped weapon. Granted they can only access 4 kits at a time, plus their weapon, but that still puts them at an advantage. In addition all of their kits have normal cooldowns on abilities, and NO cooldown on swapping kits, AND they get toolbet utility skills.

TBH theese games need to be more fps like. Everyone can kill someone in a few moves, but with enough skill the opponent wont be able to land those moves so that bad players would stand a chance. Warriors and Thiefes already have that, why cant eles?

This problem kitten up the whole meta-game. You need ages to learn how to set up the right skill order to do anything significant, while others just spam a few buttons and will be on a same level. Even if you master Ele, if someone masters a Warrior, he will beat you.

Nick Danger.9821:

Elric of Grans.7684:

…I am not sure that many players are calling for the Elementalist to be dumbed down…

I see a distressing number of posters saying the ele is either broken (no amount of effort/skill lets an ele match an ‘easy’ class) or that it takes significantly more effort to achieve the same effect as some other classes.

I see these folks then call for ‘fixes’ for the ele (ie make eles easier). I can’t remember seeing any of these folks calling for ‘fixes’ for the ‘easier’ classes (ie make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’) as their preferred method for achieving balance. Have I missed these, and if so, do they outnumber the ‘make eles easier’ posters?

When challenged, folks can respond in several ways, including expending the effort to buckle down and improve their game, or expending the same effort to complain to have the game made easier. Bringing the ‘easier’ classes up to eles level is the former, advocating bringing the ele down is the latter.

Sorry, I honestly do not understand your post. No, I have not seen anyone calling for the other classes to be nerfed, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that I do not believe the majority of Elementalist players want the class dumbed down. Changed? Yes, but change is not dumbed down. Fixing bugs does not dumb the class down. Improving synergy does not dumb the class down. Boosting underpowered skills does not dumb the class down. The majority of complaints about the class are asking for it to be improved, but retain all the complexity of it. I think I have see two or three posts asking for it to be dumbed down, in amongst hundreds of posts suggesting changes.

Elric of Grans.7684:

Nick Danger.9821:

Elric of Grans.7684:

…I am not sure that many players are calling for the Elementalist to be dumbed down…

I see a distressing number of posters saying the ele is either broken (no amount of effort/skill lets an ele match an ‘easy’ class) or that it takes significantly more effort to achieve the same effect as some other classes.

I see these folks then call for ‘fixes’ for the ele (ie make eles easier). I can’t remember seeing any of these folks calling for ‘fixes’ for the ‘easier’ classes (ie make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’) as their preferred method for achieving balance. Have I missed these, and if so, do they outnumber the ‘make eles easier’ posters?

When challenged, folks can respond in several ways, including expending the effort to buckle down and improve their game, or expending the same effort to complain to have the game made easier. Bringing the ‘easier’ classes up to eles level is the former, advocating bringing the ele down is the latter.

Sorry, I honestly do not understand your post. No, I have not seen anyone calling for the other classes to be nerfed, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that I do not believe the majority of Elementalist players want the class dumbed down. Changed? Yes, but change is not dumbed down. Fixing bugs does not dumb the class down. Improving synergy does not dumb the class down. Boosting underpowered skills does not dumb the class down. The majority of complaints about the class are asking for it to be improved, but retain all the complexity of it. I think I have see two or three posts asking for it to be dumbed down, in amongst hundreds of posts suggesting changes.

This. I’m honestly fine with the complexity of the class, but I do want to see several of the skills brought up in damage potential. Specifically staff; I’ve seen lots of Ele’s do fine with Sceptre/Dagger, or Dagger/Dagger, but staff skills just SUCK, being permalocked to a “support” role because our damage potential is atrocious. Let the spec determine the role, not the weapon.

There is a difference between wanting the class fixed and wanting it to be easier. I like the challenge but I want to be rewarded for working harder. I do NOT want to work harder and still be below average in a team.

Arheundel.6451:

Now outside the broken skills ( rtl-magnetic grasp-fire grab- lightning touch), there is absolutely nothing to complain about the ele, […]

Downed state.

’nuff said.

@DaedalusDragon.3754
Shot myself in the foot? Why, because I feel like Elementalist is the most fun playstyle for me, providing me with a good amount of challenge while not feeling handicapped?

There’s something seriously wrong with you if you’re here to force me to change the one class I actually enjoy playing most, just because YOU don’t enjoy it. Would it make any sense for me to go to the Thief’s forum and whine that they aren’t complex enough? Of course not.

Why don’t you all just concede to the fact that not all classes are easy, and that shouldn’t be changed? Just accept it and play a class you enjoy, while I play a class I enjoy.

Amnon, serious questions.

1) Would fixing the bugs make the class less enjoyable?
2) Would improving underperforming skills (eg Arc Lightning) make the class less enjoyable?
3) Would some animation tweaks (eg Dragon’s Tooth dropping quicker) make the class less enjoyable?
4) Would replacing bad/never used Traits with more interesting options make the class less enjoyable?
5) Would making all weapon options equally appealing make the class less enjoyable?

No sarcasm, not intent to troll or anything like that. These are the points most of those dissatisfied are asking for change in. Do you honestly believe these changes would make the class worse/less enjoyable?

Arheundel

1) Warrior deal 20k dmg with 3 skills
2) Ele deal 20k dmg with 20 skills

This is the point, sir. And while 3 skills of Warrior take like 2 or 3 seconds to use the 9 skills of Elementalist take like at least twice as long (more or less 10 seconds provided that you keep casting without break). Add to it that most of Ele skills have longer cast time.

This means that while we use our tons of skills Warrior has already managed to kill his targets. And his skills RECHARGED while our will be ready after half a minute (at least). Add to it that Warrior has stronger Armour and more health.

And the result is: (tadadadam…!) what we call underpower. Which means we need twice more efford and triple more time to achieve the same goals + we have weaker defences.

Westley.4716:

Elric of Grans.7684:

Nick Danger.9821:

Elric of Grans.7684:

…I am not sure that many players are calling for the Elementalist to be dumbed down…

I see a distressing number of posters saying the ele is either broken (no amount of effort/skill lets an ele match an ‘easy’ class) or that it takes significantly more effort to achieve the same effect as some other classes.

I see these folks then call for ‘fixes’ for the ele (ie make eles easier). I can’t remember seeing any of these folks calling for ‘fixes’ for the ‘easier’ classes (ie make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’) as their preferred method for achieving balance. Have I missed these, and if so, do they outnumber the ‘make eles easier’ posters?

When challenged, folks can respond in several ways, including expending the effort to buckle down and improve their game, or expending the same effort to complain to have the game made easier. Bringing the ‘easier’ classes up to eles level is the former, advocating bringing the ele down is the latter.

Sorry, I honestly do not understand your post. No, I have not seen anyone calling for the other classes to be nerfed, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that I do not believe the majority of Elementalist players want the class dumbed down. Changed? Yes, but change is not dumbed down. Fixing bugs does not dumb the class down. Improving synergy does not dumb the class down. Boosting underpowered skills does not dumb the class down. The majority of complaints about the class are asking for it to be improved, but retain all the complexity of it. I think I have see two or three posts asking for it to be dumbed down, in amongst hundreds of posts suggesting changes.

This. I’m honestly fine with the complexity of the class, but I do want to see several of the skills brought up in damage potential. Specifically staff; I’ve seen lots of Ele’s do fine with Sceptre/Dagger, or Dagger/Dagger, but staff skills just SUCK, being permalocked to a “support” role because our damage potential is atrocious. Let the spec determine the role, not the weapon.

I agree. PvE and WvW player here. I love playing Ele, and I love the staff skills – the variety and potential versatility of that weapon is great. I know my skills, I know how to play ele, and I’ve taken on multiple mobs and squashed them, so I know I “can” play Ele.

However. To play normal PvE, not even in Orr, or to play through a lot of the Personal Story, I need backup to shine. Going out solo I have to be focused and really careful all the time, or I’m dead. I don’t mind that in areas like Orr – you shouldn’t be wandering around twiddling your thumbs there. It’s a little galling though to know that I am kittening myself by using the weapon of my choice.

I have actively avoided using anything other than staff, because I like the staff playstyle, and other professions are capable of picking their weapons based on that preference. I caved eventually and tried the ubiquitous dagger/dagger, and yeah, I can see how it would be stronger against single foes once I learned the skills. The thing is, I don’t want to play the same Elementalist as everyone else, because it’s the only version that works. I want to have the choice we were promised, that professions could be played differently with different weapons, and I want to be as effective compared to other professions at level 80 as I was at level 20.

I don’t want a cakewalk. I like the challenge of knowing that if I mess up, I pay for that mistake. But I don’t like feeling that I’m reaching for something at higher levels that was there before. It’s also annoying when my Warrior friend says he was able to solo his PS up to the last mission, and I get floored ~20 seconds into some of them because the balance is off. If I can’t complete content which is arguably solo content solo, that tells me something is wrong somewhere.

Elric of Grans.7684:

Amnon, serious questions.

1) Would fixing the bugs make the class less enjoyable?
2) Would improving underperforming skills (eg Arc Lightning) make the class less enjoyable?
3) Would some animation tweaks (eg Dragon’s Tooth dropping quicker) make the class less enjoyable?
4) Would replacing bad/never used Traits with more interesting options make the class less enjoyable?
5) Would making all weapon options equally appealing make the class less enjoyable?

No sarcasm, not intent to troll or anything like that. These are the points most of those dissatisfied are asking for change in. Do you honestly believe these changes would make the class worse/less enjoyable?

Of course not, but I just don’t want Elementalist to turn into an overpowered spam-fest, leave-your-brain-at-the-door class like a thief spamming HS.

Just out of interest – which two classes are challenging to play?

I play with a Naga and Nostromo. I recommend anyone playing an ele to go purchase a gaming mouse of some sort. If you are clickIing with your mouse cursor then you are doing rong.

I don’t feel kittened but in realize I need to put in twice the effort to get the same result with ele. Funny thing is ele allows me to put in 3 times the effort where other classes are pretty much tapped out at twice the effort. (rough estimation)

Btw I’m talking d/d. D/D is crazy strong but you have to play the class like a grand piano. Any ele worth their salt knows when you get in that zone of skill rotation its an awesome feeling. No other class comes close. I just can’t relate to the whine posts.

The reason other classes don’t go into a skill rotation is because stuff is dead after their second click.

I always hear about effort and crap, basically what most of the Ele lovers seem to be saying is APM = King. So yeah, I guess together with the Engineer that’s where Elementalists shine, but unfortunately I don’t play a game just to see how fast I can get an RSI.

suroktheslayer.9346:

Btw I’m talking d/d. D/D is crazy strong but you have to play the class like a grand piano. Any ele worth their salt knows when you get in that zone of skill rotation its an awesome feeling. No other class comes close. I just can’t relate to the whine posts.

Wish I could +2 you

suroktheslayer.9346:

I play with a Naga and Nostromo. I recommend anyone playing an ele to go purchase a gaming mouse of some sort. If you are clickIing with your mouse cursor then you are doing rong.

I don’t feel kittened but in realize I need to put in twice the effort to get the same result with ele. Funny thing is ele allows me to put in 3 times the effort where other classes are pretty much tapped out at twice the effort. (rough estimation)

Btw I’m talking d/d. D/D is crazy strong but you have to play the class like a grand piano. Any ele worth their salt knows when you get in that zone of skill rotation its an awesome feeling. No other class comes close. I just can’t relate to the whine posts.

Yes brother, NAGA forever!

I know that feeling, when in tournament you jump in the middle of a 3vs1 fight and destroy all the threats in 3s…it’s an awesome feeling, when you see that warrior/thief or guardian running for his life after fighting you…when you see your name displayed on the left side of the last 4 killed enemies…it’s an awesome feeling, it’s there that you realize that all your efforts…was time well spend nuff said

Destroy all threats in 3 seconds? In 3 seconds you haven’t even cast a skill lol.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Also, elementalists are not that hard to play. They’re hard to master, yes, but they’re not that hard to play. Elementalists skills are very simple and have little subtlety behind them, because they’re meant to be combined together.

An average joe who chains his air CC skills and then his fire skills for a burst should get as much success at killing as the average joe that spams pistolwhip and heartseeker. But he doesn’t.

Don’t think that I want elementalists to be dumbed down. But if elementalists skills were mathematically stronger, your dumb average joe would have as much or almost as much success by chaining bursts as any other average joe would have with any other profession. Afterall, Mesmers are hard to master, and there you go, lots of newbs winning with them against other newbs. Even the thief is hard to master, but once again, lots of thief newbs winning against other newbs. We should take this into account when we’re discussing the powerlevel of an elementalist.

It’s easy to burst with an Elementalist, once you know it. Dodging exists in all professions. Timing your skills right and sacrificing one thing for another thing is also an inherent mechanic of initiative, shatter, etc, isn’t it? Even mesmer’s utilities are far more subtle and indirect than elementalist’s, generally.

Elementalists are harder to play with than other professions, because they’re weaker. They’re not inherently that hard to play (they’re hard to master, yes, but not to play). If average joes can’t handle an elementalist no matter what, but can dominate pvp against other professions with the more indirect, more subtle mesmer, then it’s because the elementalist is not strong enough (or other professions are too strong, take your pick).

If the average joe would be successfull by simply using the overly used s/d glass cannon build, then we’d have an useless class and truly a design disaster, in reality the average joe using ele should be able to chain few basic combos involving all attunements, still being basic they’d be very predictable to an expert user of another profession.

The difference between the average ele and the expert ele is that the combos used by the latter are unpredictable and unavoidable and this because the expert ele has learned to adapt to any situation on the fly without rest, this come with practice and effort.

Now the average joe using mesmer got an advantage because he’s having as easier time to understand the concept of the class compared to your average joe who’s still looking at the ele as some sort of mage archetype nuker when it’s not.

Ele is not a burst class, it’s like a magical version of the engineer but more effective at switching roles.

If you average joe would spend mroe time studying the ele, he’d discover that so many things have been left out and that seriosuly limit your possibilities, how many people do you think can use effectively earthen blast-healing ripple for example?

Does the average ele bother to count the number of dodges used by the enemy before using his burst? Does the average ele bother to see the proximity of the enemies before using his aoe?

The ele compared to mesmer rely more on active defense to survive, take for example : staff-d/d-trident; they’ve got multiple ways to reposition yourself and avoid dmg, dunno how many times I have used burning speed/retreat in a defensive way but still making sure the enemy would be caught in the blast/burning.

People complain about the lack of defensive tools on d/d…really? What about you start using frozen burst-earthen blast-lightning touch-cone of cold in a more constructive way? I promise you that when you see enemies snared to no end while your heal yourself back to full HP is amusing.

So the problem is not that the ele is weak compared to mesmer but that your average joe using ele is having a hader time understanding the concept, an expert ele vs an expert mesmer there is no competition …it’s the ele victory.

Got a video of myself leading a team of 4 eles against 4 mesmers in tPvp and owning them badly^^, all you need to do is repel/block ranged illusion- wait for the daze/immobilize on you which trigger a shattering clones race toward you, to land your stun breaker and dodge everything – destroy other one/two remaining illusion which come one after the other and in the meantime keep pressuring with condition the mesmer…when all illusions are dispatched, spike down the mesmer…job done

Freakiie.8940:

Destroy all threats in 3 seconds? In 3 seconds you haven’t even cast a skill lol.

Ring of fire-burning speed -double arcane-earthquake….with a naga you can do that in 3s flat…this or simply I have learned to to cast spells on the fly

Arheundel.6451:

Ring of fire-burning speed -double arcane-earthquake….with a naga you can do that in 3s flat…this or simply I have learned to to cast spells on the fly

Shhhhh! Before they implement a GCD.

Amnon.4769:

Arheundel.6451:

Ring of fire-burning speed -double arcane-earthquake….with a naga you can do that in 3s flat…this or simply I have learned to to cast spells on the fly

Shhhhh! Before they implement a GCD.

Lol how Anet can? Each of those skills got min 20s CD and max 45s CD, hardly any spamming capability

Arheundel.6451:

Freakiie.8940:

Destroy all threats in 3 seconds? In 3 seconds you haven’t even cast a skill lol.

Ring of fire-burning speed -double arcane-earthquake….with a naga you can do that in 3s flat…this or simply I have learned to to cast spells on the fly

No offense but A: That’s pretty low damage and B: Apparently Elementalist can dodge everything and other people don’t dodge anything? The CC is at the end of the combo, when everyone half skilled is long gone. Simply dodge when you see flaming speed coming and everything is wasted.

But oh wait, if you’re an Elementalist you don’t get dodged, I forgot that! No no, it’s only every other class people dodge. Sorry but toss a Warrior in there and if nobody dodges he’ll destroy everything faster than you do with a simple Hundred Blades. But of course EVERYONE dodges Hundred Blades.

See, this is why people have a hard time taking this stuff seriously. When one talks about other classes it’s like, pffft everyone dodges all their skills non stop! When it’s about the Elementalist? Pffft, nobody ever dodges my combo, who needs CC, nobody ever dodges!

If you open this combo with RtL/Updraft, then it works fine.

Freakiie.8940:

Arheundel.6451:

Freakiie.8940:

Destroy all threats in 3 seconds? In 3 seconds you haven’t even cast a skill lol.

Ring of fire-burning speed -double arcane-earthquake….with a naga you can do that in 3s flat…this or simply I have learned to to cast spells on the fly

No offense but A: That’s pretty low damage and B: Apparently Elementalist can dodge everything and other people don’t dodge anything? The CC is at the end of the combo, when everyone half skilled is long gone. Simply dodge when you see flaming speed coming and everything is wasted.

But oh wait, if you’re an Elementalist you don’t get dodged, I forgot that! No no, it’s only every other class people dodge. Sorry but toss a Warrior in there and if nobody dodges he’ll destroy everything faster than you do with a simple Hundred Blades. But of course EVERYONE dodges Hundred Blades.

See, this is why people have a hard time taking this stuff seriously. When one talks about other classes it’s like, pffft everyone dodges all their skills non stop! When it’s about the Elementalist? Pffft, nobody ever dodges my combo, who needs CC, nobody ever dodges!

I don’t see why I should bother if people don’t take this stuff seriosly, I’m not the one who doesn’t understand ele, I won’t sit here explaining step byt step how to fight on ele…but to simply put it it’s impossible to miss with burning speed once you learn to move properly.

Timing, terrain awareness, knowledge of the enemy all is essential to stay one step ahead of your opponent…that’s why burning speed doesn’t miss ever, same thing for the rest, you simply can’t dodge ring of fire but again it boils down to your abilities to read the flow of battle.

As I have stated the elementalist can adapt to any situation on the fly, but now if you want to play the ele like your typical mage from some other game….feel free to do so but don’t complain if you get destroyed, the fact that you think ring of fire+burning speed do low dmg shows how little you understand the profession, you don’t play ele to join the DPS race.

It’s all those little things you don’t take in consideration that lead you in failing while playing ele

D/D has tons of defense just not tankish defense but mobility and stun defense. DDf3 is effectively a dodge, A3 is stun, A4 a dodge, A5 another dodge and stun, W3 and W4 snares, E3 a root and E4 a stun. You have tons of options at your finger tips to not get hit in the first place. Ele requires an active defense not a passive defense built on number crunching.

I’ve been following this thread for awhile and finally feel the need to chime in based on some of the horribly embellished, hyperbolic nonsense I’ve read over the last few posts (by the same two posters who have been putting every other Ele down in this, and every thread like this, for days). To start with, I will say that my personal opinion is that the Ele is NOT underpowered, just that some other classes are too easy and have moderately overpowered near-spammable skills that give the appearance that Ele is underpowered. Played with the right hands (and a G700 or Naga mouse) the class is tremendously powerful.

Now, that being said, I want to address a few things. To Arheundel, who claims he can kill 3 opponents in 3 seconds with the right burst combo (one post before claiming, and I quote, “Ele is not a burst class, it’s like a magical version of the engineer but more effective at switching roles,” but I digress), that is complete and utter BS.

The rotation you suggest (which is one probably every Ele in this thread uses, or has used in the past) quite simply does not pump out enough damage to kill 3 players, period. Amnon says “start with RTL—> updraft first.” Fine, if you can find 3 stupid players standing together close enough when facing an Ele to hit ALL 3 with RTL (very possible) and then updraft (somewhat difficult), follow it up with burning speed, Ring of fire, arcane wave (aoe, will hit all 3), then Arcane Blast (NOT aoe, will NOT hit all 3, although it will cause burning as a projectile finisher), that STILL does not add up to enough damage to kill an opponent from 100 to 0 (you won’t even kill the opponent you used the blast on), let alone do so in “3 seconds” as you claim. This is not opinion, this is fact. None of those skills pump out enough damage to chew through 15k hp (or more). Flat out, the “combo” you think is “pro-leet” (which of course, again, every Ele uses) won’t get the job done as you claim. Not to mention you’re using two utility skill slots for arcane damage abilities, and blowing BOTH of these cooldowns in the process.

I’m not arguing this combo isn’t remarkably effective, it absolutely is, everyone of us here uses it (with minor variations, of course) but people won’t/don’t take you seriously when you embellish so extravagantly.

You know the simple fact that this argument is recurring so often on the ele boards makes it pretty clear that there is a problem.

ANet never stated the ele is the ‘hard’ profession; in fact they claimed that the necro was the hardest which makes it clear they never intended the ele to be this difficult.

Maybe if they wanted to put a big red banner on character creation when selecting the ele that says ‘hard mode’ some people’s arguments would be hold some weight. The fact is though that the ele is not meant to be any harder to play than other professions. It really is as simple as that.

Add to that the issue that eles are both harder to play and less rewarded for doing so and they reach the situation where anyone with half a brain would call them ‘underpowered’. No, their big burst combos aren’t that great given that they have cooldowns reaching 30s or above. The other professions have no cooldowns that high on their burst.

A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief. As soon as the same skill levels on different professions result in different returns you have an imbalance, and no amount of claiming everyone else is ‘bad’ will change that.

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief. As soon as the same skill levels on different professions result in different returns you have an imbalance, and no amount of claiming everyone else is ‘bad’ will change that.

This is pretty much all that needs to be said. As long as this is not true (which it currently isn’t by FAR) there is a profession imbalance that needs fixing.

Hold down your horsed Bsquared.

Your aggressive posts are quite amusing, a wall of text to simply say that you don’t grasp the concept of ele, as I have stated before the ele is not a DPS class…so go and re-read in your mind the skills I have mentioned and do some simple math, let’s not count the builds I use and the fact that I have clearly said :" I jump in a 3vs1" meaning that 3vs1 become now a 3vs2 but that’s the not the issue, if after some math you can’t realize yet the fallacity of your argument..well…

Finally the ele who can’t hit 3 players at the same time is the “stupid” one really, again you can’t play the ele like a wizard from Everquest or whatever, the newb will be ovbious…the pro will not is that simple, and even then there are many other ways to combo with the ele

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

You know the simple fact that this argument is recurring so often on the ele boards makes it pretty clear that there is a problem.

ANet never stated the ele is the ‘hard’ profession; in fact they claimed that the necro was the hardest which makes it clear they never intended the ele to be this difficult.

Maybe if they wanted to put a big red banner on character creation when selecting the ele that says ‘hard mode’ some people’s arguments would be hold some weight. The fact is though that the ele is not meant to be any harder to play than other professions. It really is as simple as that.

Add to that the issue that eles are both harder to play and less rewarded for doing so and they reach the situation where anyone with half a brain would call them ‘underpowered’. No, their big burst combos aren’t that great given that they have cooldowns reaching 30s or above. The other professions have no cooldowns that high on their burst.

A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief. As soon as the same skill levels on different professions result in different returns you have an imbalance, and no amount of claiming everyone else is ‘bad’ will change that.

A badly played ele should suck compared to a badly played thief because the number of resources to handle is far greater in the ele case, the potential of the ele is far greater than a thief hence to expect a new ele to perform good would be foolish, because a veteran ele would then become a god.

The ele got by far the biggest room to grow compared to other professions so there is just that much a thief can end up doing compared to an ele, for the enormous growing potential offered a steeper learning curve is a small price to pay.

It’s like compare an history graduate with an engineer graduate, the first one will have an easier time to get high grades compared to the engineer one, so people start saying that the engineer student is stupid, but in the end after graduation the engineer will be the one with the biggest salary and better quality of life…it’s that easy

Hold down your horsed Bsquared. Your aggressive posts are quite amusing,

I’ll admit, I was quite fired up, I apologize for that.

a wall of text to simply say that you don’t grasp the concept of ele

Oh, I grasp the concept of the class just fine, no worries about me. And thanks for proving my point that telling people to “L2P” is your catchall for any argument they might have.

as I have stated before the ele is not a DPS class

I understand that, hell, I agree with you on that. IMO, the class is about control, escapability, and sustained damage to pressure the opponent into making a mistake opening up burst opportunities. Played correctly, the class should be quite hard to kill (we’re only squishy when we take damage. we have a variety of means to avoid it, USE THEM).

so go and re-read in your mind the skills I have mentioned and do some simple math

I did, and the math doesn’t add up. BS/Ring/Wave/Blast cannot burst someone from 100 to 0. Even adding RTL/whip/updraft before hand won’t do it, and especially not in “3 seconds.” (and yes, I run a G700 mouse and can pull off RTL/updraft/bs/ring/wave, etc. in probably less than a second as well.)

I use and the fact that I have clearly said :" I jump in a 3vs1" meaning that 3vs1 become now a 3vs2 but that’s the not the issue

Well yes, it IS the issue then. Someone said “I put out the same damage with 8 skills that a warrior does in 2” and your response is “ha, I can burst 3 opponents with 4 skills in 3 seconds, L2P newb.” (paraphrasing, of course).

So it turns out the opponents weren’t at 100% health and were otherwise engaged against a teammate. If getting the drop on wounded opponents and finishing them quickly (while they ALSO soak up dmg from your teammate) is your version of proof that the Ele is the burst king and we all should just “L2P”, then color me unimpressed.

if after some math you can’t realize yet the fallacity of your argument..well…

Again, the skills you (and by extension, Amnon) mentioned, that is RTL/updraft/BS/Ring/wave/blast, cannot kill someone from 100 to 0. Note, I’m not asking Anet to buff the skills such that they do either, I’m just telling you they do not (and yes, the math backs up my claim). Sure, it’s a huge chunk of health, and you get might stacks to boot, but you’re not effectively one-shotting people with that combo (nor should you), so don’t play it off like you are.

Finally the ele who can’t hit 3 players at the same time is the “stupid” one really,

I can hit 50 opponents no problem, in WvW for example, when they zerg up. But in sPvP or tPvP (where things are more wide open) only BAD opponents stand on top of each other when an ele is nearby (they should basically NEVER stand on top of each other, unless then want to eat a 100B or mesmer whirl as a group too!).

THAT was my point. The only time you can get a three-for-one shot with RTL/updraft (updraft in particular doesn’t have a wide aoe component, RTL will hit pretty easily) is if your opponents are bad, and superbad at that.

again you can’t play the ele like a wizard from Everquest or whatever, the newb will be ovbious

Lastly, I completely understand that. Because the tone and trollish nature of my post was so heavy, I don’t blame you for missing that point, and again, I apologize for being so fired up.

In addition, I am not asking for class buffs, I think the class is very good and extremely powerful when played up to its full potential. I’ve just grown awfully awfully tired of the usual suspects telling others to “L2P newb, the class is complex” whenever they have to audacity to offer some criticism of the class, especially when the most oft-quoted criticism is the class is extremely complex to play with respect to others and should get some benefit from that.

In a “I quit, this class blows” thread I understand those kinds of responses and expect them. Those quitting the class in frustration have clearly not put in the time to learn it properly before criticizing it. But YOU started this thread with the premise that “Only I am good enough to play this class” (hell the title screams ‘ego-ego-ego’) and merely offer embellished anecdotes and trivial stories as subjective “proof” that any valid criticism is invalid. It’s bullkitten.

Why people get offended when said “l2p noob”?

I understand that the nature of the words may sound a bit offensive..but think about it, don’t you feel great when somebody say “wow dude what’s your build?”, likewise whan somebody tell you :" l2p noob" you should simply accept it as an indication that you need to improve.

I don’t say that you need to thank them but just take the good part out of it.

Going back to the post above
@Bsquared. You simply forget that all those skills cause huge burning dmg which get increased by the might stack , with that you can reach a burning dmg of 650+ for second, and the crit dmg + arcane skills + ring of fire blast + burning speed +earthquake as I have said….said more than enough really, it’s quite simple the concept

It’s clear the elementalist is weaker than other professions. All the people that are in denial on that, can only claim that we are the worst kind of wow mage noobs, and limit at giving us basic elementalist knowledge that, frankly, I knew very well even before the game was released.

The thief and the mesmer are far harder to master than they seem. But they’re accessible to newbs. Your average joe won’t easily grasp the concept of destroying all their own illusions to apply a 1s daze to a single target. But a good mesmer will use that ability to great effect to turn-around battles.

An elementalist is not that to learn, unlike what a few are trying to convince us. An elementalist is ahrd to master, but it’s possibly one of the easiest professions to learn. The problem is, they are so weak at the moment, at least in comparison to several others, that you must master every detail to stand a chance against decent players at best.

People defending the current state of the elementalists is as if people started defending the current state of GW1’s paragons for Random Arena. “But they can rupt like other classes! But they can deal good ranged dps unlike any other class with good armor to boot! But, but, but” but paragons are still sucky.

@Bsquared. You simply forget that all those skills cause huge burning dmg which get increased by the might stack , with that you can reach a burning dmg of 650+ for second, and the crit dmg + arcane skills + ring of fire blast + burning speed +earthquake as I have said….

I’m not forgetting about the burns, they’re very nice (the burn from ring is the best part about it aside from the combo field cause the base damage isn’t that impressive). You don’t get the might stack until you unleash wave (3 stacks) which is after you’ve already put up 6 seconds of burning from speed/ring. It was my understanding that the might did not up the damage from burning applied BEFORE you apply the might stacks, but I could be wrong here, I haven’t tested it for that particular scenario**. Yes, if you follow with arcane blast after wave, you will have might on THOSE burning stacks however. This is VERY GOOD damage, i’m not arguing with you about that. It still won’t kill a person (even if they aren’t able to wipe the burns).

**{The way I understand the calculation, as explained on the wiki, is that you get burning from 3 sources, speed, ring, and blast, which stack in duration. Blast has the highest condition dmg (due to the might stacks) so it gets applied first for its full duration, and then it rolls off and the remaining seconds of burn are calculated using the lower +condition dmg from the speed/ring since they were applied without the might stacks. Again, if already applied burns/bleeds get their damage increased by stacking might AFTER applying those burns/bleeds, then this discussion is moot, and I’d be quite surprised. I didn’t think it worked that way, however.}

said more than enough really, it’s quite simple the concept

See, even when you’re posting a reasonable discussion oriented message you can’t shy away from the “it’s elementary, L2P noob” type mindset. It’s this disingenuous, snide comment making that fired me up in the first place.

It’s clear the elementalist is weaker than other professions. All the people that are in denial on that, can only claim that we are the worst kind of wow mage noobs, and limit at giving us basic elementalist knowledge that, frankly, I knew very well even before the game was released.

See, I don’t necessarily agree with that. I think Arheundel and Amnon are on to something when they say the class, when played well, can be quite powerful (cause it is).

My disagreement here has been with the tone and means by which they attempt to get this point across.

I know it is “quite powerful” when played right. With (very specific) builds, I’m also getting excellent results with an elementalist for pvp. But there’s at least two things that make elementalists weaker than other professions: 1) they don’t have easy, spammable skills like all others (the solution can be either to give elementalists a few of those skills, or nerf all others from other professions – btw, the first solution won’t dumb down elementalists, unlike what some people think, as they’ll still be as hard to master as ever) and 2) the downed state, the traits and the elites need some clear buff, and it’s kinda hard to argue against that.

Arheundel.6451:

Why people get offended when said “l2p noob”?

I understand that the nature of the words may sound a bit offensive..but think about it, don’t you feel great when somebody say “wow dude what’s your build?”, likewise whan somebody tell you :" l2p noob" you should simply accept it as an indication that you need to improve.

It’s inherently worthless.

It’s like someone saying “Lurn2drive, noob” in response to “This car sucks, it always takes several tries to start”. Useless – they can’t even articulate what’s wrong, so there isn’t even any credibility to that accusation that you’re doing it wrong.

Amnon.4769:

If you open this combo with RtL/Updraft, then it works fine.

And nobady can use tools (like teleport/immunity etc) after eat updraft.

Coming from a class that is EXCEPTIONALLY easy (Ranger), I can say that I hope those of you who want the “skill levels” to be brought on par with other classes never get your way. Trust me, you do NOT want it, even if you think you do. My fights (longbow) are almost always the same: 3 open, 2 to death and if not wait a sec for 1 to finish it off. 5 is only really a big deal for AOE fights and 4 to get the mob off of me. The slot skills are worthless so I keep signets (the passives are too nice to pass up) but that leaves me VERY bored during fights. Weak? Oh no, my ranger hasn’t died in… well, I can’t remember the last time. But interesting? Fun? Yea… not so much.

Enjoy the difficulty. :-P It makes me wanna play an Ele.

I agree that with a lot of hard work you can really pull a lot out of your Elementalist, but the problem is that someone playing another class who puts as much effort into playing it is going to have far better results. Sure on low skill levels classes like Elementalists and Mesmers are going to be far worse than Thiefs and Warriors due to the complexity of their class, but this problem still persists on higher levels. Many Elementalist spells are too easy to dodge, don’t deal enough damage considering the hoops you have to jump through, or are just plain bugged.

For example fire grab, this skill has a high cooldown, low range, misses a lot and only deals good damage if the enemy is burnt. Considering all these conditions have to be met for the skill to reach its full potential you’d expect it be very strong, like a Thief using backstab from behind, or a Warrior hitting his 100 blades ability. But damage wise Fire Grab just doesn’t compare to these skills.

I love the elementalist, and I don’t think it’s terrible, but it is definitely one of the weaker classes right now and all the people that say “it’s only weak if you don’t know how to play” just sound like they think they are excellent Elementalist players because they know basic combos like Updraft → Burning Speed →Fire Grab, as if the people complaining haven’t figured out simple stuff like that already.

Bobnintendo.1256:

but it is definitely one of the weaker classes right now and all the people that say “it’s only weak if you don’t know how to play” just sound like they think they are excellent Elementalist players because they know basic combos like Updraft -> Burning Speed ->Fire Grab, as if the people complaining haven’t figured out simple stuff like that already.

Theeeeeeeen wouldn’t those other players be on par and not complaining? =D Seems to me they actually have NOT figured it out yet. >_>

DiogoSilva.7089:

Nick Danger: See it this way: when six professions are at a better state, and two (elem, necro) are at a worse state, what should you do,…

Good game design says you should follow the design goal.

What is the design goal — is it that some classes can get by with only using 2-3 of their 10+ skills, or that each skill should be useful (in certain situations/combos)? It’s pretty obvious that for AN it’s the latter.

…nerf everything because of two professions, or buff two because of everything else?

Balancing by making all classes as ‘hard’ as an ele isn’t “nerfing” anything, it’s making the ‘easier’ classes harder.

Have dervs overnerfed two professions, or have dervs overbuffed six of them?

Looking at GW1 and AN’s talks about GW2 it’s pretty obvious that some classes being able to be competitive by merely spamming 2-3 skills is not their design goal.

What is the “norm”? Aren’t two profesions out of eight the exception, and not the rule?

Let’s apply this logic to see if it holds up. Your car has 4 tires, 3 are flat. Does that mean the fix is to flatten the 4th tire, or fix the 3 flat ones?

It’s not the relative numbers, it’s the design goal, that determines what’s in need of ‘fixing’.

Amnon.4769:

Elric of Grans.7684:

Amnon, serious questions.

1) Would fixing the bugs make the class less enjoyable?
2) Would improving underperforming skills (eg Arc Lightning) make the class less enjoyable?
3) Would some animation tweaks (eg Dragon’s Tooth dropping quicker) make the class less enjoyable?
4) Would replacing bad/never used Traits with more interesting options make the class less enjoyable?
5) Would making all weapon options equally appealing make the class less enjoyable?

No sarcasm, not intent to troll or anything like that. These are the points most of those dissatisfied are asking for change in. Do you honestly believe these changes would make the class worse/less enjoyable?

Of course not, but I just don’t want Elementalist to turn into an overpowered spam-fest, leave-your-brain-at-the-door class like a thief spamming HS.

You do realise, then, that most of your militant personal attacks are against people asking for one or more of the things I listed above, right? You are repeatedly bashing people asking for tweaks. This is making you look like, well, a not-very-nice-person

People, look at the reality in a rational manner, not the thinly-veiled-insult manner prevalent in this forum. How many of you are programmers? From the sounds of the discussion, few. Do you have any idea how much time and money would be required to completely remove the current implementation of the Elementalist, back off from the original design brief of the class, redesign, reimplement and release a patch of a spam-happy, low-learning-curve Elementalist? It is absolutely impossible to justify this expense. It will not happen. Now, an expansion that includes an easy-mode cloth class? Sure, definitely possible, but it would be a completely different class that sits beside the Elementalist, not replaces it. You do not need to worry and you really aught to stop filling this forum with hate posts in your irrational fear of it happening.

Bug fixes can be tricky, but if we provide good, detailed bug reports they will be addressed in good time. Minor balancing tweaks are, from a development perspective, very quick and easy. Getting them right takes time, but the changes are easy. If an individual skill is under-performing (eg cooldown too long) this is very easily adjusted and costs ($$) relatively little. If you look at things from a development perspective, fixing the class is easy, whereas redesigning the class is not. If you then consider management’s perspective, fixing is cheaper than redesigning and makes a larger percentage of players happy. From a rational perspective, there is no reason for this fear that the class will be turned into something completely different.

If this forum were less hate-filled, perhaps developers would post here. Look at the other classes. Developers are coming in and discussing particular issues with the players. No developer in his right mind would post on this forum because anything he says is guaranteed to have a dozen players leaping at his throat and calling for a public execution. We have countless threads which devolve into exactly the same `1337 vs baddies’ argument. We do not need a single one of these, and every post along these lines harms the community rather than helping it.

Please, I implore every person who posts on this board to stop and actually think.

Elric of Grans.7684:

Sorry, I honestly do not understand your post.

Let me try again.

1- Eles could use some tweaking (bug fixes/etc.), as I’ve said several times already.

2- Low skill players of some classes can get equal or better results by using only 2-3 of their skills against equally low skilled ele players who must use more of their skills.

3- This disparity needs ‘fixing’.

4- The ‘fix’ should be to make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’ (more like eles), not make the ele more like the ‘easier’ classes.

It’s obvious you don’t understand my arguments because your replies are not based upon what I’ve argued.

First:

I do not believe the majority of Elementalist players want the class dumbed down.

I never said ‘majority’ (I said “…a distressing number…”) nor did I say you said that, so this statement is not based upon any argument anyone is making.

Second:

Changed? Yes, but change is not dumbed down. Fixing bugs does not dumb the class down.

No one has said that fixing bugs dumbs down the class, so your statement is, again, not based on any argument anyone is making.

Arguing against what I say is fine, arguing against what I haven’t said is not.

I have said several times that eles can use some tweaking and bug fixes. I have also said that the ‘easier’ classes should be make more like eles, not that eles should be made more like the easier classes.

Put together — tweak the eles but don’t dumb them down to the lowest common skill denominator.

Have we now achieved understanding?