Guild Wars 2

Hello all,

A quick update to let you know that my free time has been greatly reduced recently so I may only reply next week.
Thank you Nikaido for your insight on LH, this is the first time I hear this strat (with a guardian I mean, obviously the double elem set up is just way more efficient).

I will also soon post here videos and my spreadsheet for build analysis.

Best regards

I just finished testing your build (the first trait line, 0/30/10/20/10) in dungeons like arah and fractals, I must say, it’s been a lot of fun. I still think LH is the way to go if you have a group that is completely built around it, but I don’t run much with this type of group these days and dagger/focus is a lot more suitable to various situations and doesn’t need anyone in the group to carry it. The DPS felt surprisingly decent in a 3man run of arah (and I would never go full LH build on a 3man).

This definitively feels like the build you should run if you love the class and want to use it without being a dps autospammer carried by the rest of the group through their utilities. It has its moments but the game can get pretty stale when played that way.

At first I naturally traited myself to something close to your furyshare build but I feel it’s dramatically inferior to 0/30/10/20/10.

Nikaido.3457:

I just finished testing your build (the first trait line, 0/30/10/20/10) in dungeons like arah and fractals, I must say, it’s been a lot of fun. I still think LH is the way to go if you have a group that is completely built around it, but I don’t run much with this type of group these days and dagger/focus is a lot more suitable to various situations and doesn’t need anyone in the group to carry it. The DPS felt surprisingly decent in a 3man run of arah (and I would never go full LH build on a 3man).

This definitively feels like the build you should run if you love the class and want to use it without being a dps autospammer carried by the rest of the group through their utilities. It has its moments but the game can get pretty stale when played that way.

At first I naturally traited myself to something close to your furyshare build but I feel it’s dramatically inferior to 0/30/10/20/10.

It’s very true. Lightning Hammer may be the best in optimal groups with a Guardian to hold your hand, but Dagger/Focus is the less gimmicky way to play, and the DPS of a Dagger Fresh Air build is HIGHLY underrated. It allows you to play an Ele and still be an Ele without doing horrible damage. I definitely planned to link to Zelhyn’s builds once I finally got around to updating my own guide. But for sure, I think the DPS of a Dagger Fresh Air Ele is high enough that it does not hinder your team, and the utility of Elemental Attunement, Condi Cleansing, and Swirling Winds is incredibly high.

Thank you for your interest!

I am in the process of editing this thread to make it clearer and simpler.

Here is the spreadsheet I am using to optimize my builds:
http://www.filedropper.com/buildanalysis
It is definitely not user friendly, but I will help anyone willing to use it.

I have a question, it seems you say the best rotation for staff is staying in fire and doing 1,2 and 5 but then you recommend sigil of battle on the staff. Wouldn’t that be counter productive?

Question:

How can we survive fractals with Lightning Whip? Most bosses require range kiting. They oneshot in melee… What’s in this case?

@ NdranC
Yes that would be very counterproductive to have sigil of battle while staying in fire! I am in the process of editing this guide, so some contradictions may remain until I finish rewriting it.
If you take the staff to stay in fire then of course sigil of force is stronger.
But if you take the staff to use it for its utility while damaging with a fresh air rotation then sigil of battle is better.
I am working on the staff fresh air rotation’s output, I think I can come up with some reliable figure for its coefficient per second quite soon. My results so far show a c/s of 1.18 (versus 1.36 for a dedicated fire rotation) single target, not including condition damage output (very pessimistic), of course for two targets the c/s goes up the roof.

@ Shadowfax
I think the only boss that requires you to be at range is the last boss in the ascalon fractal (urban battleground). I face him with LH in p1 and then staff.

What level of fractals are you challenging?

1) You can stay 1200 meters away and do constant damage with 0.8 spell coefficient
2) You can use LH with 1.8 coef but make dodges each 5 seconds and stay away not using Whip or LH and waiting for boss AOE.

In the second case your DPS can probbably be the same as in case 1. Isn’t It?

If you get agro in melee what are you doing? Kiting with Lightning Whip? Can you survive 1-2 boss punches? If yes could you make a video please?

I do level 70+ fractals.
In the second phase the add is close to the boss, so chain lightning hits the boss for 0.66+0.55 coefficient per cast. In the last phase I usually swap to fire and pray for my life. Glyph of elemental power cast in earth helps with the kiting.
LH does not have a 1.8 c/s ! Last I checked it was 1.42, but in fact I just rechecked that myself and it is 1.38 so I may have to recalculate all my comparison figures optimistically (LW with electric discharge procs =1.34 c/s!).
It is very unlikely that you will get the boss’ aggro: the amount of adds attacking him prevents him from targeting you.

Shadowfax.7562:

What level of fractals are you challenging?

1) You can stay 1200 meters away and do constant damage with 0.8 spell coefficient
2) You can use LH with 1.8 coef but make dodges each 5 seconds and stay away not using Whip or LH and waiting for boss AOE.

In the second case your DPS can probbably be the same as in case 1. Isn’t It?

You play the game for fun/challenge or loot? If the former, you want to stay in melee, in the latter, it doesn’t matter.

Quick update on the LH:
c/s= 1.376
Crit modifier (full air, hammer attributes, no fury) = 1.96
Dedicated modifier (water: 20% damage on vulnerable targets) = 1.2
LH Final modified c/s = 3.5

Comparison: LW with fresh air
c/s=1.22 ; electric discharge has a coefficient of 0.7, every 5s, so c/s=0.12 ; let’s take c/s=0.1 because we won’t always be perfectly accurate and I like to be pessimistic in my calculations especially when my result proves my point anyway
total c/s= 1.32
Crit modifier (full air, 70% fury uptime) = 2.0
Dedicated modifier (10% damage while in air) = 1.1
LW final modified c/s = 3.17

So LW with fresh air deals at least 90% of the damage of LH.
And this recults does not include the increased damage from perma burn, bleed, instant spells (dagger earth 4), burning speed, and the increased vulnerability stacks.

And also, ascended weapons are coming

Tbh LH builds are leech and they get fury from outside source. Also, 3rd attack from chain is a blast and has 5 people aoe cap.

haviz.1340:

Shadowfax.7562:

What level of fractals are you challenging?

1) You can stay 1200 meters away and do constant damage with 0.8 spell coefficient
2) You can use LH with 1.8 coef but make dodges each 5 seconds and stay away not using Whip or LH and waiting for boss AOE.

In the second case your DPS can probbably be the same as in case 1. Isn’t It?

You play the game for fun/challenge or loot? If the former, you want to stay in melee, in the latter, it doesn’t matter.

If boss oneshots you in melee and you die how will you make DPS?
If you constantly dodge + 3 hits dps is not that high.

Do you have videos? All videos with elem in melee i saw are:
3 strikes → dodge → 3 strikes → dodge → wait for aoe → etc…

In this scenario constant damage on 1200 meters is higher.

Yes of course, but I just like to put out the numbers ^^

I have factored in everything but vulnerability (pessimistic), and I found that even if you give fury to the hammer wielder, LW with fresh air deals at least 97% of that damage on single targets (2600 armor).
I think that you get equal damage just by considering the time used to conjure the hammer and pick up the second one.
But of course you need quite some APM

30 secconds of fury for 5 people + 9-12 might stack for 5 people is the same damage?

Also if we speak about melee, I consider using LH cause of it’s ability to cause blind.
Each 3rd strike it helps you to negate damage from boss and not to dodge.

Yes Shadowfax, I am saying this myself in the paragraph of my guide dedicated to the LH.
What I was doing here is just comparing the routinely sustained damage.

Shadowfax.7562:

If boss oneshots you in melee and you die how will you make DPS?
If you constantly dodge + 3 hits dps is not that high.

Do you have videos? All videos with elem in melee i saw are:
3 strikes -> dodge -> 3 strikes -> dodge -> wait for aoe -> etc…

Tell me which boss do you have in mind.
Bloomhunger? Obviously not.
Mossman? Stay at max melee range.
Jellyfish? Not exactly a choice.
Imbued Shaman? He’s ranged with 1 annoying melee attack. Staff doesn’t have aoe projectile defenses,
Norn Shaman? Stay at max melee range.
Archdiviner? Stay at max melee range.
Dredge Suit/Ice Elemental? Stay at max melee range while kiting towards lava buckets or just burst him down at lower levels.
Captain Ashyn? I’d like to see anyone meleeing him in p3 at higher levels.

Boss have only 1 person aggroed and even if that person is you stay at max-melee range.

In this scenario constant damage on 1200 meters is higher.

You can’t do constant damage unless you use soft cc which you can only use by swapping attunements and that means less dps.

Shadowfax.7562:

Each 3rd strike it helps you to negate damage from boss and not to dodge.

Please tell me you jest.

haviz.1340:

Shadowfax.7562:

If boss oneshots you in melee and you die how will you make DPS?
If you constantly dodge + 3 hits dps is not that high.

Do you have videos? All videos with elem in melee i saw are:
3 strikes -> dodge -> 3 strikes -> dodge -> wait for aoe -> etc…

Tell me which boss do you have in mind.
Bloomhunger? Obviously not.
Mossman? Stay at max melee range.
Jellyfish? Not exactly a choice.
Imbued Shaman? He’s ranged with 1 annoying melee attack. Staff doesn’t have aoe projectile defenses,
Norn Shaman? Stay at max melee range.
Archdiviner? Stay at max melee range.
Dredge Suit/Ice Elemental? Stay at max melee range while kiting towards lava buckets or just burst him down at lower levels.
Captain Ashyn? I’d like to see anyone meleeing him in p3 at higher levels.

Boss have only 1 person aggroed and even if that person is you stay at max-melee range.

In this scenario constant damage on 1200 meters is higher.

You can’t do constant damage unless you use soft cc which you can only use by swapping attunements and that means less dps.

If I get agro and I’m in 150 range (LH) boss runs to me in a millisecond and hits me for 80% of my HP. How can i kite him in 150 or even 300 range?

That’s why you don’t use LH.
Also, you generally stay behind the boss, so you see him turning to you and you know when to dodge. Anyway all what Haviz is saying is perfectly true, I have seen him in action and he is able to melee bosses like a boss.

Can i see a video?

Ok, I see boss turning to me and i get agro, I dodge what than? My whole team is ranged! I get Agro anytime I strike boss 2-3 times in melee.
I can’t be in 300 range of boss if he is running after me? how do you do this?

Spam cripple or preferably chill, backpedal to 300 range, play around.
Your whole team shouldn’t be ranged

If a team is ranged we do not need to stop our damage. Just kiting and do the same damage all the time.

But you don’t need to stop your damage in melee.
Anyway with the amount of increased damage you are doing in melee compared to ranged you can spend 30% of your time doing nothing and you will still deal more damage than ranged dealers …

Ok, and what’s about might for the whole team and constant team fury boon?
What is better: get +10% damage from earth + 10% wrom water and + 10% from air to yourself or to give 12 stacks of might and constant fury to a whole team?
I mean scepter + fire trait for fields.

I am not sure I understand your question: you asking me to compare scepter’s might and fury stacking ability (persisting flames) to what?

If your whole team is using ranged weapon you most likely can’t give those boons to all of them.

To the actual damage whole dungeon team does (including you)
1) Your suggested build
2) Might and fury stacking build with scepter (just case everybody gets all stacks)

Other questions:
1) What healing skill you suggest to use with your build?
2) Did you calculate what runs are better Scholar or Strength?

Scepter can produce two more blast finishers than dagger, so 210 power (a boost of about 8%), but deals incredibly low damage.
Perma fury can be seen as a 15% damage boost on most parties, but most classes have the ability to generate fury for themselves or for the others so this is usually an overkill.
If you are able to deal good damage and provide fury at the same time then you are doing a better job. It is not easy to do but it is possible with a fresh air + persisting flame build. Look at the build section of this guide.

I do not suggest a healing skill, and this for good reasons: it depends on the situation, your playstyle and your allies. You can change it at will, so just experiment.

The question about runes is more about ruby orbs VS runes of strength. Runes of the scholar are always better if you can keep your hp up. Like I am saying in my guide, runes of strength are bugged at the moment so ruby orbs are better. But if they weren’t bugged, runes of strength would be better than ruby orbs after a certain level of might stacks on you.

Is it possible to record a video of you playing 70 lvl fractals? It would be a really great experience!

I would like to! I am not playing much lately due to poor internet connection and little free time, but my fractal runs should resume soon.

On a side note, I have been looking at a what would be our damage if I include burning speed spammed on cooldown with cd reduction.
-base c/s from LW = 1.22
-add a pessimistic 0.1 c/s for electric discharge
-factor in burning speed assuming only 4 ticks of the trail hit the target: 2 + 0.1 * 4 = 2.4 coefficient every 13s at the cost of 0.75s of LW ( – 1.22 * 0.75)
Total c/s = 1.22 + 0.1 + (2.4 – 1.22 * 0.75) / 13 = 1.434 (9.6% more than LH, though LH has a crit modifier that is 8% higher)
If you cast burning speed only every 2 swaps to fire total c/s= 1.377 (same as LH)

I think this is valuable food for thought.

How can we cast it? It makes us enter melee range of 0

Burning speed’s blast has a 240 radius.

I am now considering the idea of running a Persisting Flames + Flesh Air build (30/30/0/0/10) but instead of swaping out of air 3 times in 15s, you would do it 2 times in 13s. This would reduce the c/s from electric discharge from 0.14 to 0.107 (pretty much what I have been using in my pessimistic calculations so far anyway) but enable us to spam burning speed and blast its fire field for a shared fury uptime of 80% (so way over 100% for self).
The extra 200 power and 5% modifier from the build compared to 20% modifier from my All Damage build is a small reduction in self damage on average, but the fury shared with the group vastly compensates for this.
This would be hard to pull-off but very rewarding in terms of both damage and support via boons.

Interesting…
Could you please explain the rotation in more details?

Air → Fire (burning speed , breath, Arcane wave) → Air → Earth (Magnetic Wave) → Air → Water ?

Is it like this?

More like:
air -> swap to fire in the middle of LW cast -> burning speed (swap to air before the blast) -> air, wait 4s -> water or earth for blasts -> air until fire is available again (wait 7s)-> repeat.
It is a 13s cycle and you alternate between water and earth for blasts.

The problem with water is that boss is not staying still… It can me really hard to blast with water 5 on fire field

why don’t we use Drake’s Breath ? It has 2.0 coef

Yes of course in a normal damaging rotation you would use drake’s breath, I was just talking about the fury producing rotation here.

Burning Speed slide is 600m, LW range is 300, you stay 250-275m away from target.

600m – 300m = 300m behind the target , Burning Speed blast radius is 240…

Not good it seems…

In PvP we use offhand dagger Air5 to make this combo…

I know the people of Tyria are very concerned with their weight, but I don’t think bosses are skinny enough to have a 0 radius hitbox

Do you have information about mobs hitboxes? It has to be minimum of 120m in diameter…

If I am not mistaken the player hitbox has a 90 radius. I expect most bosses are bigger and some are even large enough to get hit by multiple ticks of burning speed’s trail.

Edit: I mean diameter.

Do conditional damage crit?

why isn’t it easier to lay down fire wall?

Conditions do not crit.
Firewall deals low damage and has along cooldown, but indeed it is easier to land blast on it due to its longer duration.

Just for fun, take a look at this FA rotation:
(format: spell | animation time | total coefficient)

Start in Fire
Burning speed | 0.75 | 2.4
Drake’s breath | 3 | 2
Swap to Air during cast
Electric discharge | 0 | 0.7
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Swap to Earth during cast
Ring of earth | 1 | 1.2
Swap to Air during cast
Electric discharge | 0 | 0.7
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Swap to Water during cast
Cone of cold (interrupt with LW after 2 ticks) | 1.2 | 1
Swap to Air during cast
Electric discharge | 0 | 0.7
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Lightning whip | 1.15 | 1.4
Swap to Fire

Fury uptime: 70%
Burn uptime: 80%

Total time: 17.5
Total coefficients: 22.74

Coefficient per second: 1.30

Burning speed + Arcane Wave + Magnetic Wave = 20sec fury

so it can be 100% uptime with Persisting flames. In this case you can discard Arcane fury and get +10% damage in earth