Guild Wars 2

WAHOOOOOO!!! =^._.^=

It’s finally done! I’m here to share my results with you, my friends!

I present to you, two full spreadsheet with all skills the Engineer has to offer, one for the Power Scrapper and one for the Condition Engineer!

Builds

Power Scrapper
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASncoClYh9ZBubB0ehl3iCsD/w0i+4D+k/7BnwAA-ThRBABPcBAwTHAAPAAKV/5q9HlfmpEkUADMGA-e

Condition Engineer
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhSsYfWwWLQ7FLpF13TFANAYJuiHw4PmGFJA-TxRFQBETJRDVu1P1fAwDAIBnAA3t/Q70DQKgFVWB-e
(the ascended Viper back item is missing in the editor)

All skills the builds are using are marked with colors in the spreadsheet:
Blue is awesome
Green is great
Yellow is medium
Orange is weak
Red is terrible
Grey is utility
Purple is passive

Key

Name of the Skill (Whole Chain)
The name of the skill used. If there is a chain, like hammer auto attack, the whole chain is used for further calculations.

Baseline Value
The tooltip power damage. Nothing you should worry about.

Power Damage
The full buffed average power damage of a skill.

Condition Damage
The full buffed average condition damage of a skill.

Total Damage
The full buffed average total damage of a skill.

Cast Time
The time you require after you start casting a skill, until you can continue with casting other skills. Includes aftercast.

<- incl. Quickness
The Cast Time while under the effect of Quickness. Quickness is a boon, granted by the Mesmer, which reduces your cast time by 33% and is considered 100% uptime.
(Note: movement skills are not affected by quickness. The cast time is marked red for those skills in the spreadsheet.
Cooldown
The time you require after you finished casting the skill. The total Cooldown after you start casting a skill would be this value + the Cast Time value.

<- incl. Alacrity
The Cooldown while under the effect of Alacrity. Alacrity is a buff, granted by the Chronomancer, which reduces your cool down by 25% and is considered 100% uptime.

DpS
The damage a skill deals over time all on it’s own. This value is basicly the Total Damage divided by the total Cooldown (means, including Cast Time).

<- incl. Quick. & Al.
The DpS a skill deals, while under the effect of Quickness and Alacrity.

Chrono Boost
The % damage boost a skill will have, if your Chronomancer grants you 100% Quickness and Alacrity.

DpiSCT
It stands for Damage per invested Second Cast Time and determines the priority of a skill or how strong a skill really is. This value shows how much damage you’d be dealing if the skill would have no cool down. It is often mixed up with DpS / Damage per Second which is a completly different value.
For example, a skill which deals 5’000 damage and has 0.5s cast time has a DpiSCT of 10’000. If you have another skill with 20’000 damage output, but a cast time of 4s, it’d have a DpiSCT of 5’000 and makes it a worse skill to use. You’d be dealing more DpS with the first one (as long as we ignore the Cooldown / as long as you use other skills too, at least auto attacks, ofc).

<- incl. Quickness
The DpiSCT including Quickness shows the true strength of a skill. This is the most important value of them all and shows how mighty a skill really is. You should always priorize your skills according to this to achieve max DpS.

Well that should do it! If you have ANY questions at all, feel free to ask! If you have any concerns or think something is off or wrong, yes we all do mistakes, I beg you to tell me right away!

My next project on top of this will be optimal realistic rotation for each raid boss so far, to choose between power and condi, aswell the optimal kits! I’ve already create a rotation builder in Excel which allows you to pick a skill and shows you how much time has passed and when the skill is ready again, aswell as the DpS of that rotation!

Once I’m done with that, I’ll be sharing this “Engi Rotation Builder” with you guys too!

I hope you like my work!

Last update: 18. Mar. 2016

Greez!
- Ziggy! Or for once: Ziggs Ironeye (ign)

I guess the idea here is simply maximizing DPS?

Is the reason you choose Pinpoint over No Scope for Scrapper build because of cap on crit%?

Raid envoirment → perma fury granted.

yay! really awesome

did you include any assumptions about confusion for static shot and concussion bomb or are those minimum values?

I think it was 1 hit every ~3 sec I calculated with. That should be the approximate attack speed of the current raid bosses.

So I estimated 1 hit for power Concussion Bomb (5s) and Static Shot (3s) and 1 hit for condi Static Shot (4.8s), but 3 hits for condi Concussion Bomb (8.3s) (yea I was kind with this one xD).

So do your findings confirm the previously known rotations or challenge them? I guess in the end that’s what matters.

DGraves.3720:

So do your findings confirm the previously known rotations or challenge them? I guess in the end that’s what matters.

The rotation is an illusion.

Xyonon.3987:

DGraves.3720:

So do your findings confirm the previously known rotations or challenge them? I guess in the end that’s what matters.

The rotation is an illusion.

So what is the optimal rotation under your system? Or is it just “go by color”? I have to test your model now.

Edit: Or you could and post the footage. That’d be nice too.

the optimal rotation is use the highest colored skill on the list that is off cd as quickly as possible

insanemaniac.2456:

the optimal rotation is use the highest colored skill on the list that is off cd as quickly as possible

Exactly. Just what I posted on reddit today:

Xyonon.3987:

To be honest – there is no “real rotation” for an engi at all. You “simply” use the skill on top of this list, if it’s on cd, pick the next one. Repeat this process for every single attack.

The perfect rotation constantly changes for each dodge, not perfect attack, 1s on wrong kit, ress, heal, phase switch, alacrity quickness flaws etc.

Therefore, a “perfect rotation” from this data is simply “max dps”. But there is no real “rotation” for an engi, just a priority of skills. Never forget that.

One last question before I embark; if I choose to change something in your builds that you posted these results for will the results vary wildly? If so, how wildly?

Depends on what you do You can send me the link and I’ll take a look at it ^^
I mean sure it’ll change a lot if you want to use celestial or what ever xD But if you are talking about traits, I think they won’t matter that much if you don’t lose the cores. Just tell me what you’re talking about

Well, I don’t want you to kitten it, I want to kitten it using your model. Partially because I am curious about a few BiS pieces in the power set. I’m not convinced they are the best options. Especially pinpoint distribution. I’ll do it later.

Pinpoint Distribution is definitely BiS in a group setting if you’re not using a rifle. I’d be more worried about the differences between using Siege Rounds and Shrapnel, as the bleeds still add quite a bit and Siege Rounds is only effectively boosting your Orbital Strike.

What does BiS mean? :o Best in Situation or something? ^^’’

Pinpoint is definitly the best option, yes. About Siege Rounds vs Shrapnel, Shrapnel will probably outdamage Siege Rounds. I’ll give you exact numbers soon, gonna take a deeper look at it. The main reason why I picked Siege Rounds tough was the utility aspect, due more blasts and longer fields. For pure damage I’d pick Shrapnel, but the difference is probably the same as if you pick Rifle Turret over Elixier Gun for slightly more damage but no utility at all :/

best in slot

I’m extremely impressed with your data collection and calculations, great job.

I’m interested in how you got the data for cast times and aftercasts. As far as I can tell there is no database of these numbers, and so I’m assuming you calculated them yourself somehow. How did you do this, and how confident are you about the accuracy?

I also have a comment about something I’m sure you know but I would guess many people who just looked at the tables for the skill rankings may not realize. The skill priority for these tables is essentially assuming a situation where every skill is on your bar at once, since the DpiSCT which is used for skill priority ignores cooldowns. Basically, this means that just because a skill is higher on the table doesn’t mean it is a better skill to take for DPS. DpiSCT rankings are skill priority rankings given that you already have that skill on your bar, and they should not be used to suggest that a certain skill is better than another overall. The case in point is Surprise Shot (and incendiary ammo) which have an infinite DpiSCT, but which obviously do not deal infinite damage or infinite DPS because their cooldowns are non-zero.

Of course, DpiSCT is an important figure as well because it gives the optimal order for putting your skills on cooldown (or at least it’s a good general guide), allowing you to quickly get a good idea of what the best rotation is. But bot DpiSCT and DPS are vital for selecting what skills to take in the first place, and for choosing a rotation.

Your rotation spreadsheet obviously must take this into account, just want to make sure people who just looked at the tables realize that DpiSCT isn’t a hard ranking of skills from best to worst, it is a guide for selecting rotation order from the skills on your bar. Optimal DPS rotation is selected from a combination of DpiSCT and DPS (and there is an optimal rotation given certain quickness/alac conditions, melee range, no dodging, etc., it’s just extremely unlikely that you will be able to execute it all in sequence because it’s long and complicated and involves very few autoattacks, and so a priority list is much more useful for a human to use). I know you mentioned that DpiSCT is not DPS in the OP, but I felt it deserved some more explanation. Hopefully this stops people from thinking they should be bringing rifle turret and flamethrower on every build, lol.

Thanks for putting in the work for this, it’s a great resource.

I don’t think Rifle Turret would beat Elixir Gun for damage. While Surprise Shot has no cast time, Acid Bomb still easily beats Surprise Shot + 2 Bomb autos for damage, and you can definitely cast it at that rate if not faster.

“Best in show”.

Such curious modeling. I still would like to see this somehow put to real use to show value though. Seems close to a marginal analysis.

wa .. hooo… ç_ç snif

@Dinosaurs.8674:
I’m a bit sick and tired right now. Literally ^^‘’ So I’ll answer you tomorrow when I feel better, you made some great inputs and points. And thank you for you kind words

@cat:
Acid Bomb is not affected by Quickness since it’s considered a “movement skill”. It takes about 1.2s for the whole cast. This on a 11.25s CD results into a total CD of about 12.kitten . During that time you can cast 2 Surprise Shots and 2 Bomb autos.

Acid Bomb is 37883 damage over 1.2s → isolated 31569 DpS.
2x Suprise + 2x Bomb are 38635 over 1.12s → isolated 36155 DpS.

So yea, Surprise Shot beats Acid Bomb while under the effect of Quickness. However this diffrenece may look big but in the whole rotation it’s rather small and for the utility’s sake I’d pick EG over Rifle Turret unless you know your gonna have a loooon ranged combat time.

@DGraves:
Ingame DpS is always lower than spreadsheet DpS, due human faliure, lag and influence like dodge, heal, ress etc.
What you could do tough, is recording an ingame rotation over time and fill in the numbers from my list for each skill and get the DpS you’d have done.

I will upload some vids on power and condi engi for each boss “soon”

Greez!
snif Ziggy

cat.8975:

I don’t think Rifle Turret would beat Elixir Gun for damage. While Surprise Shot has no cast time, Acid Bomb still easily beats Surprise Shot + 2 Bomb autos for damage, and you can definitely cast it at that rate if not faster.

Of course it doesn’t. This is why I wrote the whole post above about how DpiSCT – which is what OP’s spreadsheet ranks skills by – is only a measure of how fast a skill can do a single cast’s worth damage. It is completely distinct from DPS, which is a measure of a skill’s sustained damage when used repeatedly, as often as possible.

You may be confused because the spreadsheet ranks skills based on DpiSCT because it is intended to be a skill priority spreadsheet. You may notice it also calculates DPS, and if OP so desired he could sort the sheet by DPS and the list would look quite different (which would be appropriate, because it would be measuring something different).

Put as simply as possible:

DPS [DAMAGE / (CAST TIME + COOLDOWN)] tells you which skills you should bring on your bar (up to the point that adding the next highest DPS skill will not change your optimal skill rotation)

DpiSCT [DAMAGE / CAST TIME] tells you which skill on your bar you should use right now to get the highest damage. (It also tells you which skill you should add to your bar after you reach the point that the next highest DPS skill does no change your optimal skill rotation).

So even though surprise shot has an infinite DpiSCT, it’s DPS is low in a sustained fight because of its cooldown and you would never bring it to begin with. If for some reason you already had surprise shot on your bar, it would always be the best skill to use if it was avaliable, because it has no cast time and deals more than zero damage.

DGraves.3720:

“Best in show”.

Such curious modeling. I still would like to see this somehow put to real use to show value though. Seems close to a marginal analysis.

I don’t see how this is marginal at all. Assuming the numbers are correct (obviously it would be irrelevant if they were wrong lol), then you could easily use this spreadsheet to come up with the best possible DPS rotation for engineer for any given skill bar. There is a general idea of what skills are best for power scrapper, but as far as I know there aren’t a lot of numbers behind anything. One thing I know OP would suggest based on this data is that bomb kit is better than flamethrower on a power build (at least with quickness), which I’m not sure is actually the case, but at least it provides the means to check.

Still, there are plenty of questions if OP actually wants someone to confirm the calculations, namely the conditions the skills are used under. Since it’s for a raid scenario I would assume the following, but I don’t know for sure unless OP tells me:

25 might
100% crit chance (power)
99.4% bleed/burn duration (condi) (worth noting that 100% exactly is achievable)
seaweed salad + toxic sharpening stone? superior sharpening stone? (power)
pizza + toxic focusing crystal (condi)
spotter
warrior banners
assassin’s presence
empower allies
scholar buff
full zerker gear
sigil of force
every engi trait damage boost
+5 infusions? (these aren’t in the linked builds)

I would assume some things (like ranger spirits) were not taken into account as well. Would be nice to have more info to check numbers!

Hm. Get well soon.

Wahoo :3 Feelin’ better already, even tough my throat almost kills me x.x

Dinosaurs.8674:

I’m interested in how you got the data for cast times and aftercasts. As far as I can tell there is no database of these numbers, and so I’m assuming you calculated them yourself somehow. How did you do this, and how confident are you about the accuracy?

Somone on reddit asked me the same question and I have to tell you it was indeed a pain in the poop-facility D: I noticed that ingame cast times are so extremly wrong that you can’t trust them a bit. I mean comon, grenades supposed to have a 0.5s cast time, but it’s actually 1s.

How I did it – for auto attacks it’s simple – I just threw 5 minutes grenade AA’s and divided it by 300. This is probably the most accurate thing you can do. So I’m 100% sure about all auto attacks aswell grenade, bomb and mortar #2-5.

Then there are different skills like Pistol #3-5 or Rifle #2-4. For those I recorded them and used something like this -> aa, aa, aa, skill x, aa, aa, aa. I checked when the last aa stops, or rather the next starts. I also used a metronome at the very same time.

For all other skills I basicly did the same. Some skills like shield #4 and #5 or acid bomb who also require fast hands or personal skill I did multiple times until I’ve had the best result.

TL;DR: Recorded, aa – skill – aa, metronome, multiple times.

I’d say the whole thing is 80-100% accurate :3 (autos 100%, other skills 80%+)
However if you find something very odd, don’t hesitate to tell me – we all do mistakes!

Dinosaurs.8674:

cat.8975:

I don’t think Rifle Turret would beat Elixir Gun for damage. While Surprise Shot has no cast time, Acid Bomb still easily beats Surprise Shot + 2 Bomb autos for damage, and you can definitely cast it at that rate if not faster.

Of course it doesn’t. This is why I wrote the whole post above about how DpiSCT – which is what OP’s spreadsheet ranks skills by – is only a measure of how fast a skill can do a single cast’s worth damage. It is completely distinct from DPS, which is a measure of a skill’s sustained damage when used repeatedly, as often as possible.

You may be confused because the spreadsheet ranks skills based on DpiSCT because it is intended to be a skill priority spreadsheet. You may notice it also calculates DPS, and if OP so desired he could sort the sheet by DPS and the list would look quite different (which would be appropriate, because it would be measuring something different).

Put as simply as possible:

DPS [DAMAGE / (CAST TIME + COOLDOWN)] tells you which skills you should bring on your bar (up to the point that adding the next highest DPS skill will not change your optimal skill rotation)

DpiSCT [DAMAGE / CAST TIME] tells you which skill on your bar you should use right now to get the highest damage. (It also tells you which skill you should add to your bar after you reach the point that the next highest DPS skill does no change your optimal skill rotation).

So even though surprise shot has an infinite DpiSCT, it’s DPS is low in a sustained fight because of its cooldown and you would never bring it to begin with. If for some reason you already had surprise shot on your bar, it would always be the best skill to use if it was avaliable, because it has no cast time and deals more than zero damage.

That’s not quite true. The DpS is also not quite important. It’s rather the difference between DpiSCT of a skill and the auto attack. It depends on how frequently a skill can be used too, yes, wich is basicly DpS, but that’s not all. It’s the combination of DpS and DpiSCT as I mentioned before:

Xyonon.3987:

Acid Bomb is not affected by Quickness since it’s considered a “movement skill”. It takes about 1.2s for the whole cast. This on a 11.25s CD results into a total CD of about 12.kitten . During that time you can cast 2 Surprise Shots and 2 Bomb autos.

Acid Bomb is 37883 damage over 1.2s -> isolated 31569 DpS.
2x Suprise + 2x Bomb are 38635 over 1.12s -> isolated 36155 DpS.

So yea, Surprise Shot beats Acid Bomb while under the effect of Quickness. However this diffrenece may look big but in the whole rotation it’s rather small and for the utility’s sake I’d pick EG over Rifle Turret unless you know your gonna have a loooon ranged combat time.

Surprise Shot outdamages Acid Bomb because the difference between auto attack damage and Acid Bomb is not high enough aswell the long cast time allows you to do even two of those auto attacks.

But this doesn’t mean everyone should pick the 3 kits on top of the list ofc! As I said, it’s a deeper connection between DpS and DpiSCT. I’m not quite sure how to get the perfect rotation / kits with a mathematical solution. So far it was easy to pick the last kit, since Grenades and Bombs are a must have. The last kit has to be something that is a dps increase over the bomb auto attack, wich means Elixier Gun, Rifle Turret or Tool Kit. If you are ranged FT works too, but you can no longer wait for FT #2 to explode it manually – either you are on max range so it does it on it’s own or you don’t use it at all.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Still, there are plenty of questions if OP actually wants someone to confirm the calculations, namely the conditions the skills are used under. Since it’s for a raid scenario I would assume the following, but I don’t know for sure unless OP tells me:

25 might
100% crit chance (power)
99.4% bleed/burn duration (condi) (worth noting that 100% exactly is achievable)
seaweed salad + toxic sharpening stone? superior sharpening stone? (power)
pizza + toxic focusing crystal (condi)
spotter
warrior banners
assassin’s presence
empower allies
scholar buff
full zerker gear
sigil of force
every engi trait damage boost
+5 infusions? (these aren’t in the linked builds)

I would assume some things (like ranger spirits) were not taken into account as well. Would be nice to have more info to check numbers!

The spreadsheet has been created under optimal, yet realistic raid conditions:

- 25 stacks Might
- Fury
- Empower Allies, Spotter and Assassin’s Presence
- both common Banners
- Vulnerability
- Druid Stuff (!!! I made a mistake here, will explain below !!!)

- Bufffood (@ build)
- Runes and Sigils (@ build)
- Gear Stats (@ build)
- Traits (@ build)
- NO Infusions (@ build)

As for Power, those modifiers have been applied:
=(1.05*1.1) * (1.1) * (1.05*1.07*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02) * ((1+0.075*4/9) * (1+0.045*4/9)) * 1.25

As for Condi, those modifiers have been applied:
=(1.05) * ((1+0.075*4/9) * (1+0.045*4/9)) * 1.25

What you can see here is this little mistake I made: “(1+0.045*4/9)” is only 1.5 stacks of GotL of the Druid. I changed something halfway with the modifier system, means I before applied GotL at the very and, now at each skill. It should be 3 stacks GotL on average, not only 1.5. And I forgot about Empowerment Glyph, which I will add very soon (10% dmg for 6s every 12s with a 4/9 chance to get).

I will fix these asap and reupload the new images!

DGraves.3720:

Hm. Get well soon.

Ty :3

Greez!
- Ziggy :3

Wahoo!

Ok I’ve made some small corrections about the spreadsheets and some toughts about the build.

First about Shrapnel vs Siege Rounds:

For a power build, Shrapnel will deal 16s bleed with a 15% chance on hit with an explosive skill. This includes bomb autos aswell grenade skills, but not hammer or other damage skills. Taking this into consideration I’d say one would hit the enemy about 2 times per second with an explosive (hit with an explosive, not proc Shrapnel!).

This would result into a DpS of 567 or upscaled for the CD of Orbital Strike (30.87s) 17506 damage.

The double Orbital Strike from Siege Rounds increases the DpS only by 270 since you could simply use a little bit more than one bomb auto instead of a weaker version of Orbital Strike. This means I can only add the difference between them since you invest a cast time for the bigger outcome, unlike Shrapnel wich is purely passive. This means Siege Rounds deals 9182 damage ever 30.87s.

So yes, Shrapnel would indeed be better than Siege Rounds, but I personally prefer a 2nd blast finisher and longer lasting combo fields over the difference of 297 DpS unless you are really only hitting a meat bag. For example for Gorseval I prefer a longer lasting blind for the small ghosts and chill for the elites. For Sabby on the other hand I’d probably stick to Shrapnel.

I decided to keep Siege Rounds for my Spreadsheet to show the damage of a double Orbital Strike in the list.

What else did I change? Three small things have been “patched”:

• Grace of the Land average stacks increased from 1.5 to 3 (4/9 chance to get the buff)
• Glyph of Empowerment with 50% uptime added (4/9 chance to get the buff)
• increased Flame Jet by 10% power damage due to his natural 10% bonus against burning enemies (forgot that one ._.)
• added the base and buffed stats on the top left of the images
• added cool pictures of an Engineer and a Scrapper (Charr ofc!)

Greez!
- Ziggy

heh

heres something to consider:

out of bomb/eg/nades/mortar, you get a base 49.5% cripple uptime and 50% chill uptime. if glob shot hits 2x (which isnt unreasonable tbh), then its 87% uptime.

taking siege rounds increases that to 49.5% (87%) and 60%.
taking shrapnel increases that to 100% (trivially but rng based) and 50%, and you dont depend on glob shot, which means you need to cast 1 less terrible skill (which isnt so terrible when it hits 2x) as 10% of your rotation (because its unlikely that you have quickness while holding a spirit).

idkkkkk, i just hate glob shot

True, shrapnel also cripples with a great uptime which makes it really better than Siege Rounds for Gorsy aswell. Maybe I’m gonna change it anyway, not sure tough :s

Glob Shot is a great skill if you are solo, take a look at it’s DpiSCT and double it and you’ll have an awesome skill. I tested with it aswell and it always jumps to the next closest enemy / ally. So if you are solo facing an enemy you will hit the enemy twice with it. It has a max travel range tough, so stay close :<

It’s just most likely that the Power Scrapper at Gorsy has to take Nades, Bombs and Slick Shoes over EG. Otherwise you’d always be better with as condi or just another Ele.

Oh my haha Wahoo everyone :‘D Tonight I’ve had bad, funny and impressive expiriences. xP

First of all Glob Shot didn’t behave as I wanted it to. It sometimes jumped to the enemy, to me and then disappeared, no more bounces. I’m really not sure anymore how it works … xD Maybe it does not jump to the same target twice after all and I just made a mistake when I tested it the first time…

However, now the hilarous part – so I was testing Takedown Round vs Drop Gunk and after that I used Glob Shot on an enemy with less than 50% HP and placing a Takedown Round on myself wich then exploded and dealt damage to the enemy, not me. So basicly this – Glob Shot allows you to use Takedown Round on yourself and damage others – hehe funny eh? xD

Important!:

btt: Takedown Round vs Drop Gunk (this is for condi engi!)

Takedown Round deals 3027 power and 471 condi damage every 10s with a 50% uptime (only above 50% HP) and therefore deals 175 DpS for the whole fight.

Drop Gunk deals average 3616 power and insane 16704 condi damage every 20s. This results into 1016 DpS wich is extremly strong imo.

The damage comes from random conditions and the power damage. The field tics 6 times and deals each time power damage, thus procs Sharpshooter and procs one of those conditions:

(base values)

• Bleed 12s
• Burn 3s
• Poison 8s
• Cripple 5s
• Chill 3s + Cripple 5s or Weakness 5s or Vuln 3s
• Blind 5s
• very very rare alone without chill Cripple 5s or Weakness 5s or Vuln 3s

I’m very impressed how strong this skill is and one should focus on getting that Throw Gunk every time. Another reason why Mortar > Supply Crate.

Greez!
- Ziggy

this might be interesting to you for building a rotation

insanemaniac.2456:

this might be interesting to you for building a rotation

Thank you, nice to know something like that exists But in the very end I only trust my own stuff so I sure wouldn’t have required over 70 hours just for the spreadsheet ya know ;D

I’ve created a Rotation Builder (which I’m probably gonna upload sooner or later too) for the Engineer only, that allows you to pick any skill from a drop down list, then shows you how much damage you have done, how much time has passed and also when the skill is ready again!

This allows every Engi to quickly set up a rotation, even though it’s rather unrealistic due noone is so perfect in using skills after each other anyway, aswell other factors like dodge and ress are not considered (as stated in the builder “full buffed, no disruption, no mistakes – an illusive perfect world”). However it clearly shows wich kits are the best to use.

Greez!
- Ziggy

Xyonon.3987:

Important!:

btt: Takedown Round vs Drop Gunk (this is for condi engi!)

Takedown Round deals 3027 power and 471 condi damage every 10s with a 50% uptime (only above 50% HP) and therefore deals 175 DpS for the whole fight.

Drop Gunk deals average 3616 power and insane 16704 condi damage every 20s. This results into 1016 DpS wich is extremly strong imo.

Drop Gunk has a 1.2 power coefficient, while Takedown Round has a 2.0 coefficient. TDR will definitely do more direct damage than Drop Gunk.

Regarding the condi damage you have for Drop Gunk, are some conditions more common than others? Assuming it’s a 1/6 chance for all the main condis (pretty close to that if the others are incredibly rare), then you would only average ~13k condi dmg.

Wahoo!

This is exactly why you shouldn’t trust the wiki, especially not on it’s coefficients. They are almost always wrong.

First of all – the tooltip say something completly different. Even tough they may be wrong aswell – I’ve been using Takedown Round and Drop Gunk multiple times on the silver wastes puppets and yea – they are wrong xD.

The average total damage of Drop Gunk was 1935 (all 6 hits).
The average damage of Takedown Round was 2194.

• The wiki coefficients are wrong
• The tooltips are wrong (not because they are trait tooltips, the % difference is wrong aswell)
• I was wrong with my power damage (no deeper testings back then :P)
• EVERYONE IS WRONG Q_Q

The average bomb autohit was 1930 on the same target. So using this as a base, the tooltips can be changed to this:

Bomb autohit as base -> 100%
Drop Gunk -> 16.71% per hit / 100.26% total
Takedown Round -> 113.68%

So modify your bomb damage by those % and you get an approximate result for the true tooltips. Just make sure you have no traits enabled like +dmg for explosives that affect the bomb. Oh yea takedown is an explosive btw (not used in this test ofc).

About the condi damage part. I expect 1/6 chance for each condition to strike, either Bleed, Burn, Poison, Blind, Cripple or Chill with another no-damage condition. It’s extremly rare that Weakness or Vuln alone strikes, out of a 100 only a few times, so I ignored them. So in theory this means on average with each Throw Gunk you hit 6 times of 6 random conditions -> apply each condition once.

This results into 1 stack burn for 3s, 1 stack bleed for 12s and one stack poison for 8s. Now apply buffed values aswell condi duration:

• Bleed is now 24s and deals 6033 dmg.
• Burn is now 6s and deals 4506 dmg.
• Poison is now 13.3s and deals 3565 dmg.
• The average Sharpshooter (calcs include the crit chance!) deals 434 dmg. This x6 is 2604 dmg.

16708 condi dmg

So using my new knowledge the more accurate results are (Condi Engi only!):

Takedown Round deals 4207 power and 471 condi damage every 10s with a 50% uptime (only above 50% HP) and therefore deals 234 DpS for the whole fight.

Drop Gunk deals average 3373 power and insane 16705 condi damage every 20s. This results into 1004 DpS.

Greez!
- Ziggy

Xyonon.3987:

Wahoo!

---

This is exactly why you shouldn’t trust the wiki, especially not on it’s coefficients. They are almost always wrong.

First of all – the tooltip say something completly different. Even tough they may be wrong aswell – I’ve been using Takedown Round and Drop Gunk multiple times on the silver wastes puppets and yea – they are wrong xD.

The average total damage of Drop Gunk was 1935 (all 6 hits).
The average damage of Takedown Round was 2194.

• The wiki coefficients are wrong
• The tooltips are wrong (not because they are trait tooltips, the % difference is wrong aswell)
• I was wrong with my power damage (no deeper testings back then :P)
• EVERYONE IS WRONG Q_Q

From the sounds of your testing, this tells me that Drop Gunk is using 1000 weapon strength and TDR is using 691.5 weap strength (unequipped strength). These inconsistencies are really annoying, but it explains the damage values.

Edit: After looking into it myself, it seems they stealth-buffed the coefficient for Drop Gunk. It is now a 0.3, and I can assure you that it was not before. (I was the one who calculated the 0.2 on the wiki a few months ago.) I’ll update the wiki accordingly.

This means that my previous statement was not true, they both use unequipped weapon strength. Inconsistent inconsistencies.

• Bleed is now 24s and deals 6033 dmg.
• Burn is now 6s and deals 4506 dmg.
• Poison is now 13.3s and deals 3565 dmg.
• The average Sharpshooter (calcs include the crit chance!) deals 434 dmg. This x6 is 2604 dmg.

16708 condi dmg

Are you sure you’re calculating the damages correctly? For a 24s bleed to do 6033 damage, you would need 3623 condition damage. (And you would be using Berserker runes)

I think something is wrong in your formulas.

=(C97*0.06+22) * (1+0.09*4/9) * 1.05 * 1.25

That’s the formula.

• C97 is 2712 condition damage
• *0.06+22 is the formula for bleeding
• 1+0.09*4/9 are the average of 3 stacks GotL with a 4/9 chance to get (druid gets it itself too)
• 1.05 is the Zerker Rune
• 1.25 is Vulnerability

It’s the final total damage, since everything else to compare it with is also the final total damage in my list

Xyonon.3987:

• 1+0.09*4/9 are the average of 3 stacks GotL with a 4/9 chance to get (druid gets it itself too)
• 1.25 is Vulnerability

Ah, I wasn’t assuming vuln or GotL. There’s the difference.

Wahoo!

Do you guys think this thread should get a sticky? If yes I’d also keep it up to date with newer stuff like todays patch, where improvements for condi engi are rather possible with the new trinkets shop.

What do you think?

Greez!
- Ziggy

yes, its an awesome thread

i cant wait for viper trinkets. i think ill ditch sigil of malice!

That’s what I did today, now the biggest question is if I either want 2 or 3 condi trinkets?

I’m capped at something like 101.5% condi dura for bleed and burn. But without it at 98%. So you could say to swap out a sinister trinket for viper its like:

Viper: +2% condi dura for bleed n burn, +3.5% for rest, +18 power
Sinister: +18 condi dmg, +25 precision

I’d probably take Viper, what would you? (No hardcore math yet)

Quick question, the attachment a few posts up, showing a rough rotation, is that for condi? And does the power build make use of the hammer, or does it rely more on the bombs and grenades for it’s dps?

Xyonon.3987:

That’s what I did today, now the biggest question is if I either want 2 or 3 condi trinkets?

I’m capped at something like 101.5% condi dura for bleed and burn. But without it at 98%. So you could say to swap out a sinister trinket for viper its like:

Viper: +2% condi dura for bleed n burn, +3.5% for rest, +18 power
Sinister: +18 condi dmg, +25 precision

I’d probably take Viper, what would you? (No hardcore math yet)

earth > bursting right?

this trades ~60 condi damage and ~4% crit for ~60 power, 100% even (er i think) duration, and a “5” bleed stack (or you know, if bursting is better)

gw2skills REALLY needs to update the backpieces.

Earth > Bursting yes. And Earth > Malice if you got enough Viper gear aswell. The question is if I either use 1 Sinister Ring or 1 Sinister Ring and Accessory.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUh+sYtWwELQ7FLpFFYJuiHA9038V/3TFANAA-TxRFQBub/h2pHAAPAg+p+TDV2lgTAAxUKQKgFVWB-e

This would be better tough :P

But yea Viper back is very important since there isn’t a Sinister one. So I got that one and I think it’d be best to go FULL Viper except for 1 Sinister Ring, leaving you with 101.5 condi duration with burn n bleed. But it’s not capped for all other conditions tough, so it’s not totally wasted, those 1.5%.

You could even use the 18% food to save 90% money per food So you’d have 99.5% wich is perfect imo ;3

legendary back =)

but a sinister shoulder/glove/boot gives up that 22 expertise = 1.5% duration.

Yu da real MVP ! :O doing stuff now!

…

ok I’m done:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhSsYfWwWLQ7FLpF13TFANAYJuiHw4dkGFJA-TxRFQBtTPQ/UdBAPAgGq8LBnAA3t/gwUjgUALqsC-e

With full Viper, you’d get 105.2% condi duration with bleed n burn.
That’s like 2.5% more damage with every condition but bleed n burn. But I’d say 75% of our damage IS bleed n burn, so those 2.5% result in 0.625% damage increase.
It also increases your power damage by 0.6% (wich is 20% of your total damage so it’s a tiny dps increase of 0.12%
~+0.6% damage

With Sabbys Viper back item, you get 100.27% condi duration with bleed n burn. You also get 2% crit chance and 30 condi damage. The crit chance will probably be as meaningless as the power boost from full Viper and the condi damage will be around 1% more condi damage.
~+0.9% damage

That’s what I call minmax :<

I make some changes too. With right traits, boons and 90% perfect rotation I reach 29k dps on sabby during 1st phase. I was must try it myself ,because I saw engi with 24k so, still i think you can have most effective gear, but core dps of condi engi is perfect rotation. :-)

On VG you can reach high numbers too. Just you must know when tank move boss and when which skill is suitable to put at current time. Same on gorsy, or slothy. Sigh… i wish that slick shoes can affect burnin.… such dps lost with this :-)

29k dps on sabby? I don’t want to insult you but I guess your dps tool may bug a bit. I really doubt that. Or maybe everyones bugs and yours doesn’t I don’t fully trust them anyway >_> Or are you talking about theoretical dps??

Yea slick shoes = power engi dominance.

What is the formula (that is, what did you include in the calculation) for incendiary ammo? I can’t seem to find any way to hit the 27,035 in-game.

DGraves.3720:

What is the formula (that is, what did you include in the calculation) for incendiary ammo? I can’t seem to find any way to hit the 27,035 in-game.

Wahoo!

Formula used for burning per second:
=(C97*0.155+131.5) * (1+0.09*4/9) * 1.05 * 1.25
=(burning formula) * (Grace of the Land) * rune * vulnerability
I assumed that the druid sustaines 3 stacks of GotL on 5 ppl including himself.

Formula used for Incendiary Ammo:
=2 * 3 * (1+$F$99) * 3 * $F$93
=stacks * base duration * condi duration * attacks * burning per second

So: 2 stacks * 5.982s * 3 attacks * 753,23 damage = 27035 total damage

Greez!
- Ziggy

What does C97 refer to?

My concern is that I cannot get it to reverse properly nor can I get your given value to calculate down to the rounded digit you chose.

So I went ahead and just multiplied your multipliers together to come up with 1.25*1.05*1.04 (read as: 9/1 * 4/9 = 4 because 9 / 9 = 1 allowing you to “cancel”, through cross-multiplication, the 9’s entirely so it’s just the numerator) = 1.365 and save time. So this means that the new formula is simply:

(2712*.155+131.5)*1.365 = 753.2889

This isn’t 753.23.

Reversing should be just as simple to get the effective condition damage since it’s just just condition damage over that value:

753.23 / 1.365 = 551.8168 – 131.5 = 420.3168 / .155 = 2711.722

This isn’t 2712.

Interestingly enough you are actually under reporting the damage you’re doing. This is a good thing, usually, but you also rounded your effective condition damage up instead of down which means that somewhere in there something is different or not rounded.

I’ll figure it out eventually but something is wrong.

Edit: Yes, obviously, I should just multiply it all by 35 something… (2 * 3 * 5.982 ) so I will just to be complete.

753.2889 * 35.892 = 27037.05

753.29 * 35.892 = 27037.08

Wahoo!

C97 is condi damage.

At the “current” spreadsheet, you’ll have 2711.7 condi damage. The .7 is a result of 2097 precision -> 209.7 condi damage (trait).

So I think the 0.022 condi damage in reversing are just a result of your rounded numbers, since burning deals not exactly 753.23 damage (it’s 753.2254275).

With that number you get 27034.76704383 damage with IA → 27035.

Greez!

That explains the disparity. You rounded all of your numbers individually of one another.

I needed to know that. Thank you very, very much.

I rounded two numbers in my post :P But yea ^^ sry for the confusion ^^