Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

under what scenarios does it significantly change and perhaps even NOT be best DPS in the game

the simple answer is when mechanics force you to respect them or fail without offering extraneous interactable things to pass the mechanic.

Not sure I understood that answer; would an example of a mechanic that forces you to respect them be a dodgeable attack that downs you?

See, for me, that’s the kind of thing that I would like theorycrafters step up to include in their models. What happens to the DPS output of the meta build in an encounter where you have to dodge a melee attack that one-shots you every 20 seconds? How does a ranged build compare in that situation if it doesn’t have to dodge? I think exploring those kinds of things in specific scenarios where there are differences between meta and non-meta build factors has quite a bit of merit because meta is only meta when a player has that skill threshold and let’s be honest, that’s not everyone.

Maybe looking into these things isn’t valuable in GW2 because the team content is dumbed down too much for casual players? I guess really what I’m interested in: If a player is a noob, is meta still the best build for them. Again, for example, if they just suck at dodging, do I want to promote a melee range meta build to that player? Is that the best recommendation I can give them? I really don’t think it is.

not dodging per se. the best example of dodging specifically would be lupi prolly. if you dont dodge grubs, the fight takes longer because he gets tougher when he eats them. but that is independent of class and nearly independent of build (vigor and energy sigil notwithstanding) and can be passed by simply remaining aware of your surroundings with little impact on dps.

also not what im referring to: things like shatterer, where the break bar mechanic requires launch pad/gliding use (thats the extraneous interactable mechanic) to get enough cc so everyone can do it and has to do it to not fail to break the bar.

a good example of what im more referring to would be pre-hot mai trin. a power engi really brought a lot to the fight in the form of 3 hard cc skills + magnet. if you were running the power meta build, eg/ft/nades, or slightly off meta bomb/eg/nades, you basically have 0 control over where mai trin is. you could strip her fairly well, but overall encounter length (and thus, dps) really hinges upon getting her to stand in blue puddles. by taking tk/mine/nades, you had lots of cc skills that are dissociated from the hard hitters, which means that you simply strip defiance when she has it, ask for 1-2 ccs from your team (which they definitely had, and if when coordinated, could make your magnet and overcharged shot available at every puddle opportunity regardless of where mai trin stood).

this isnt something that every class could do. the other good classes for mai were healer guard (can hold aggro and stand in puddles), thief (stripping + pull like engi, + stealth), necro (pull + stripping + projectile destruction after CPC buff). but it was always very obvious that warrior, ranger, ele, and mes were clearly disadvantaged because of their lack in the kind of cc or staying power that the other 4 classes had. thats not to say that they were bad, because truly only necro deserved to be spurned for a long time, and even so i would rather have good players on their class (even necro) over baddies on “meta” classes. and the old fractals were really good at burning away all the chaff, so when you did see people pugging 40s and 50s, it was pretty likely they were good players that shouldnt get hate.

another more current example is slick shoes at 3-4 draft gorseval. in a pug, using this strategy is a free pass for the break bar and everyone else can focus on doing dps rotations while having to think less and worry less. its a hit to personal dps to take it, but doing so means youll might get gors down in only a few tries with a decent group that can handle the other mechanics. so just do it (if they ask) (plus its fun lol). other classes can do the same thing — necros can take flesh golem, mesmer could take moa, heralds can take staff (this one is a bit more common, because its a lower opportunity cost than moa and flesh golem), thief can take venom share/basi. slick shoes isnt quite unique and every group doesnt have to take an engi, but it gives a free pass on a critical mechanic and allows your overall group dps to be a bit better because people can focus on dps instead of cc.

another slightly different component to the same fight is holding a spirit. condi engi can easily hold the last spirit. even taking slick shoes. obviously when the spirit reaches gorseval, bad things happen. you can make that not happen simply by changing your rotation to include all of your soft cc, and the dps is of course not optimal, but saving your group an extra wipe is worth more time in the end.

and yes, encounter design is pretty typically at a point where any class can complete all content. i dont particularly think its a bad thing, because it gives freedom to players to be more creative, at least until well after the meta strategy forms.

if a person sucks at dodging, tell him he sucks at dodging. its not advice you can give in good faith unless youre watching his play. but imo recommending a build that does less damage and is more selfish and does not respect melee range boon sharing mechanics (especially this) is crazy! meta is still the best or close to it, and that player needs to practice more. the meta builds are certainly the best place to start, because questions can be quickly answered by most good players.

although quite frankly, for the duration of this patch/meta i think my new answer to noobs is going to be precisely a selfish ranged build — condi reaper. but i wont be telling them to camp at range, because you gotta be in melee to get free boons. it carries hard in fractals especially, but you ARE required to have a bit of encounter knowledge and use your utilities effectively (i dont even get enough aggro to need to be a good dodger, unlike engi).