Guild Wars 2

Arantheal.7396:

were I ever mentioning MM’s?
No.
Have I ever complained about mesmer clones?
No.
Have I ever complained about spirit weapons?
No.

So why do I dislike turrets then?
Because in opposition to the former 3, they are completely independent from the engi, both AI and stat-wise, therefore allow the engi to completely leave the node in case a 3v3 happens, and just keeps his overcharges going.
Turreteers – as players- were providing nothing into a fight other than being a turret spawn-node (extremely low dps, 1 cc, 1 immob, no support other than the standard HT). While all other minions have intricate mechanics build in them, interacting with the player, turrets had nothing but traits to enhance themselves. Even experimental turrets was not interacting with the engi properly since they would give their boons to whoever was in the area to that time, again making the engis presence unnecessary.
Clones can only be summoned on a target, while being shattered at various targets, providing different effects to the mesmer who used them / to the target they got shattered on.
Spirit weapons, while bringing nothing but direct attacks, were bound to the movement of the guardian, therefore requiring the player itself to position himself properly if he wants his AI to perform.
Minions increase life-force when they die, can cleanse condis off the necro who runs them and even reflect them back on attackers, together with the fact that they are also bound to the movement of the necro.

turrets are just standing there, targeting random things (unless the engi himself is present to attack something) and act completely independent if necessary.

So yea, a rework would be awesome, but not if they again end up as sturdy, automatically engaging, high dps node with zero interaction whatsoever.
And yes, there are ways to play actively and skillful with turret-orientated builds.
In fact there is a rather unpopular s/d build with utilizes TK and both rifle / rocket-turret, but only as knock-back beacon, blast-finisher, their toolbelts and for the homing kock-down of rocket-turret. This is a turreteer hybrid which actually features mobile and skillful use of turrets, on cost of a proper stun-breaker, but with frequent knock-backs in turn it’s one of the few turreteer builds that actually work quite decently in WvW as well.
And do you know what’s funny about it? It’s performance remains the same after the nerf. All the nerf did was punishing drop&forget gameplay with turrets, which is a very good thing in my opinion.

If you want to introduce a rework for making them more skillful in general, be my guest, there are enough topics to discuss these ideas, in fact I posted a couple of suggestions over the past few weeks myself.

Amazingly enough Im glad we could actually agree that a succesful rework would have been better than what has happened. Ill be honest. The way you kept refering to it as PvE. And the multiple times you commented on the AI aspect of it specifically had you pretty well painted as a mindless AI hater.

IF I was wrong I apologize for that. Whether I actually was or not I will leave to time to show. (that isn’t another attack. I have just seen a few too many false agreements in these forums to take them at face value)

Edit: I have to point out that the only turret build you seemed to mention with any sort of approval….Didn’t actually use the turrets as turrets or even minions in any way shape or form. Instead there used as a indirect version of the bomb kit.

Arantheal.7396:

were I ever mentioning MM’s?
No.
Have I ever complained about mesmer clones?
No.
Have I ever complained about spirit weapons?
No.

So why do I dislike turrets then?
Because in opposition to the former 3, they are completely independent from the engi, both AI and stat-wise, therefore allow the engi to completely leave the node in case a 3v3 happens, and just keeps his overcharges going.
Turreteers – as players- were providing nothing into a fight other than being a turret spawn-node (extremely low dps, 1 cc, 1 immob, no support other than the standard HT). While all other minions have intricate mechanics build in them, interacting with the player, turrets had nothing but traits to enhance themselves. Even experimental turrets was not interacting with the engi properly since they would give their boons to whoever was in the area to that time, again making the engis presence unnecessary.
Clones can only be summoned on a target, while being shattered at various targets, providing different effects to the mesmer who used them / to the target they got shattered on.
Spirit weapons, while bringing nothing but direct attacks, were bound to the movement of the guardian, therefore requiring the player itself to position himself properly if he wants his AI to perform.
Minions increase life-force when they die, can cleanse condis off the necro who runs them and even reflect them back on attackers, together with the fact that they are also bound to the movement of the necro.

turrets are just standing there, targeting random things (unless the engi himself is present to attack something) and act completely independent if necessary.

So yea, a rework would be awesome, but not if they again end up as sturdy, automatically engaging, high dps node with zero interaction whatsoever.
And yes, there are ways to play actively and skillful with turret-orientated builds.
In fact there is a rather unpopular s/d build with utilizes TK and both rifle / rocket-turret, but only as knock-back beacon, blast-finisher, their toolbelts and for the homing kock-down of rocket-turret. This is a turreteer hybrid which actually features mobile and skillful use of turrets, on cost of a proper stun-breaker, but with frequent knock-backs in turn it’s one of the few turreteer builds that actually work quite decently in WvW as well.
And do you know what’s funny about it? It’s performance remains the same after the nerf. All the nerf did was punishing drop&forget gameplay with turrets, which is a very good thing in my opinion.

If you want to introduce a rework for making them more skillful in general, be my guest, there are enough topics to discuss these ideas, in fact I posted a couple of suggestions over the past few weeks myself.

There have been many people the past few weeks, myself included, that have offered something up to make them better. Some ideas actually sounded really good and I hope that Anet takes a look at them, eventually…

Regardless, one glaring issue right now is the number of traits that are practically required for turrets to even be effective for more than a blast finisher, and you need at least most of these. These traits even take up almost two full separate trait lines, which really backs the engineer into a corner. Do they take the turret traits and make their turrets as strong as possible but lose viability with other things, or do they take only a half the turret traits and get a mediocre balance between turrets and some kit. Taking no turret traits isn’t really an option if you’re running anything other than healing turret.

I’m really hoping that the final trait rework can address this properly.

You guys need to calm down, read this: http://theludite.com/2015/04/04/beyond-game-balance-when-to-hang-up-the-nerf-bat/#more-152

Pitman.9210:

You guys need to calm down, read this: http://theludite.com/2015/04/04/beyond-game-balance-when-to-hang-up-the-nerf-bat/#more-152

You can’t compare turrets to riki.
You see, riki is overpowered and lame.
Turrets are an infernal spawn of evil. The devil. A witch. kitten on the game. A big black hole sucking all the fun out of the game.

Did I miss any heresy accusations brought forth by the mob?

I used to care about turrets being nerfed the way the did. Though I did not play a Turret Engineer (P/P Condi), I thought surely Anet would not just hastily nerf them into oblivion with no testing and then just forget about them. But since then I’ve remembered how other AI builds were treated (MM Necro, Spirit Ranger) and realized this is it. The build is gone, and Anet has literally zero intentions whatsoever of attempting to implement any sort of balance for these AI builds.

What is really sad though is you can still make a MM Necro or Spirit Ranger work, but there is no hope for the Turret Engi. I know Gern will go everywhere stating turrets don’t die easily as everyone says they do and they still have uses. I can guarantee on my P/P Engi I can destroy any turret you place in seconds and decimate any turret build I encounter, even pre-nerf.

The fact is, turrets in their current state provide very little utility for for the cooldowns they currently have. Either the utility provided or the cooldown must change or they will remain useless utilities only ever taken by those that are bored of being always limited to law of, “THOU ENGI MUST TAKE TWO KITS AND ONE ELIXIR/GADGET TO BE OPTIMAL!”

Let me very clear on one thing though, the old Turret Engi was incredibly easy to play and created a bad environment in PvP, so please let’s stop defending that particular build. However, anyone without an unbiased hate towards AI or incapacitating fear of the return of the old Turret Engi can see that the way this nerf was implemented and then just forgotten was wrong. This was not a balancing nerf, this was taking the easy road and completely removing a build and consequently and entire line of utilities.

On a side note, great article OP.

i do agree turret builds in pvp were overwhelming on skilled hands but how does that justify a nerf of this magnitude why was said nerf needed in pve and wvw as well i cant even summon them in pve maps at times and thats saying alot as i use them just to detonate and knockback so it is that much anoying when you use them then see them go into cooldown without spawning as they die that fast .

not to mention turrets were already near useless in wvw

Arantheal.7396:

Nilix.2170:

They were glad turrets were now useless and that overnight, they had vanished from ranked play. What frustrates me so much about this attitude is that it’s entirely selfish as opposed to looking at the bigger picture of how a profession and its skills function. I regularly hear about how turret engineers and the fact they are AI controlled is unfair and yet a mesmer differs little in the sense that Phantasm’s are also AI controlled damage. The only difference being that a Phantasm’s damage is higher than any turret, lower in cooldown, can be shattered and you don’t sacrifice any utility for having them. Oh, and unlike a turret, they can follow you.

Has he been reading my posts? Can this guy just come here and high five me?

What the kitten is this guy rambaling about phantasms?
Did he even play mesmer to begin with?
Phantasms are extremely squishy, actually even more squishy than the current turret iteration. Phantasms will not move with you, but use their skills only on the target they got summoned upon. If that target dies, they despawn instantly, making it not possible to take them with you into the next fight.
Phantasms are nothing but short-lasting dps beacons that the mesmer has literally no control about, except which effect he gains by shattering them.
Clones do not even do any dmg. The only ones that have offensive capabilities are those from staff, because they spam the staff AA (for next to 0 dmg) but apply full-hitting conditions. They blow up from single attacks, take condis and again, can not be controlled further than to decide when, how & where to die.
If you want to kitten up mesmer-rotations, aoe-spam the area so their clones and phantasms have no chance to stay up. If your enemy runs clone-death, make sure to not be in melee to clones when they die.
Remember APT? It’s also not a good idea to be in melee when a turret goes down.

The last patch just got turrets in line with clones/phantasms, necro-minions, spirits and spirit weapons. What this guy is writing there in his post is nothing but another rambling about a easy-mode, OP spec being gone from the game.
But lets look into other builds that used turrets before. Are they impacted by this?

Decap with thumper. Nope, still a double knockback-beacon that lives long enough to get its knockbacks trough.
S/D with rifle turret. Nope, the toolbelt is untouched by the changes, and the turret itself still can be used as instant knock-back and blast-finisher.
S/D with rocket-turret. Nope, the overcharge still fires instantly, it still can be used as instant knockback & blast-finisher, and the toolbelt remained untouched
Nades with net-turret. Nope, net turret still fires instantly before it gets destroyed, getting his 2sec stun and immob trough. again, insta-knockback and blast-finsiher work like intended, as well as the toolbelt.
FT / FT – the high uptime of flame-turret this build required is definitively not possible anymore, but it lasts long enough to get the smokefield pulsing to its end, and the firefield on the TB is still awesome utility. So this received a nerf in burning uptime, still you get your awesome knockback and blast-finisher on low cd.
HT in all builds: the combo remains untouched and that’s waht made it awesome in the first place.
Supply-crate in all builds: all turrets die faster, but the immob from the net-turret still comes trough, as well as a couple of burning ticks. together with all the bandaids and 2sec aoe ranged stun, this skill is almost as awesome as before.

The only specs that got hit hard by this nerf are 2-3 turret specs. And it’s good that they are gone, imo. And since our other build-options just got influenced on minor proportions, literally nothing of value was lost.

agree 100%, that writer is a waste of oxygen comparing turrets to phantasm.

U can instakill turret with almost every build (unless u are using braindead cleric/shaman), or unless u are a necro which cannot trigger marks on turret (not directly); I can’t realy see some1 having any hard time demolish turrets in 1-2 seconds now.

And about bring turret in lines with other pets, did we realy forget that they cannot be healed, cannot recive boon, cannot critical hit and cannot move? Sureley all of this is a “fair” trade off for the “big damage” they deal, and the “Huge” CC they provide on their death (stability some1?);
Phantasm and clones are a different story, they are supposed to die fast, and in my opinion they provide a better effect than turret on that, phantasm in particular do always launch a powerful attack before death, and have nowhere the cd of turrets (except phearps utility phantasm, but who take those?)
Said that, I won’t be missing turret builds, since I use celengineer with granade, tool and Slick Shoes (yes, they are asking to nerf those as well), so see ya the next nerf (IP, Gear shield, slick shoes, Overcharged shoot and Healing turret)

kitten people defending turrets should man up and try playing high risk high reward build.. Lol

StickerHappy.8052:

kitten people defending turrets should man up and try playing high risk high reward build.. Lol

So sad that these type of comments are the only ones in support of the turret nerfs. Many well-typed suggestions for a proper turret nerf pre-patch and even more suggestions for proper way to fix turrets post-patch. Yet all we ever hear from those in favor of the current nerf is “haha noobs must learn to play now / turrets should never be viable / AI not fair, doesn’t belong in PvP.” Guess it’s just easier to appease the immature whiners than it is to actually make an educated balance decision. Though I wasn’t fond of Turret Engineers or the players behind them, they didn’t deserve this. This isn’t balance, this is just removing options.