Guild Wars 2

Leadfoot.9071:

That thread is beyond ridiculous – as Nakoda pointed out the whole argument is based on 1v1 and fueled by FOTM condition build players taht are baffled that there is a counter to their setup. All attempts to point out that it’s a team game and calling in reinforcements to deal with a build that sacrifices everythign to counter something very specific are completely ignored. I would like to have faith in ANet that they don’t simply read thread titles and number of views/responses as a means for their balancing decisions….

There are plenty of condition removal methods for experienced players In all classes except the warrior. And the engineer, without AR has plenty of access to condition removal as well.

I’m not saying that Automated Response is overpowered, or that it’s even particularly an amazing trait as it’s really just there as a “last stand” type of option especially when combined with other @25% traits (inventions minor to recharge heal, tools minor to recharge tool belt, Self-Regulating for Elixir S).

The issue I have with the trait is that it has no cool down, and thus has a superior mechanic to options like Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser and Armor Mod which are both also Grandmaster traits. Image if instead of having internal cooldowns these always triggered while below 25%. Constant blocking and blinding, while not universally effective, is enough to shut down certain play styles. Again even if this were the case folks could still rain hate on the Engineer and kill it, and wouldn’t be over powered traits.

Preferably I’d like to see Automated Response turn all conditions into random boons at 25% and take 50% less condition damage and 50% lower condition duration for 10 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. Additionally I’d like to see Elixir C produce an identical effect, making the resulting trait simply be:

Automated Response: “Drink Elixir C at 25% health.”

It’s both a buff and a nerf since now Self-Regulating Defenses would proc with a condition clear, making it an amazing trait combination.

that would be a minor master trait at best then.
and wouldn’t do a thing against any proper condition build
condition builds NEED to have counters

Ichishi.9613:

that would be a minor master trait at best then.
and wouldn’t do a thing against any proper condition build
condition builds NEED to have counters

They already do. Its simply a choice. Do you want to spec against physical damage or condition damage. Because I see all these shamans amulet or soldiers amulet builds with toughness that wont help vs conditions and they use all sorts of protection but no condition removal skills.

Obscure One.4357:

I’m not saying that Automated Response is overpowered, or that it’s even particularly an amazing trait as it’s really just there as a “last stand” type of option especially when combined with other @25% traits (inventions minor to recharge heal, tools minor to recharge tool belt, Self-Regulating for Elixir S).

The issue I have with the trait is that it has no cool down, and thus has a superior mechanic to options like Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser and Armor Mod which are both also Grandmaster traits. Image if instead of having internal cooldowns these always triggered while below 25%. Constant blocking and blinding, while not universally effective, is enough to shut down certain play styles. Again even if this were the case folks could still rain hate on the Engineer and kill it, and wouldn’t be over powered traits.

Preferably I’d like to see Automated Response turn all conditions into random boons at 25% and take 50% less condition damage and 50% lower condition duration for 10 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. Additionally I’d like to see Elixir C produce an identical effect, making the resulting trait simply be:

Automated Response: “Drink Elixir C at 25% health.”

It’s both a buff and a nerf since now Self-Regulating Defenses would proc with a condition clear, making it an amazing trait combination.

It doesnt have a cooldown, sure. It also does absolutely NOTHING against non-conditions. And as far as we know it doesnt reduce the duration of existing conditions already on the target. And it isnt an immunity, it lowers duration meaning condition damage can still get through regardless. The 25% health is an ideal situation.

This trait is as specialized as the builds that it counters. And when the meta shifts away again from Conditions Errywhere, it will once again become an underwhelming trait no one picks up.

This is a trait that has been pretty much unchanged since launch. Yet only very recently have people started to complain about it. If the meta could change to where this trait is usefull, the meta can just as easily change (back) to a situation where its mostly useless.

I like that there are traits like these around, that when a certain build or playstyle gets a little to popular, these counter-builds suddenly become worthwhile to play as simply to act as a predator for the FotM builds.

TL:DR version.

Everyone is rolling with rocks in a world of scissors and they dont like this paper trait.

Zelulose.8695:

Ichishi.9613:

that would be a minor master trait at best then.
and wouldn’t do a thing against any proper condition build
condition builds NEED to have counters

They already do. Its simply a choice. Do you want to spec against physical damage or condition damage. Because I see all these shamans amulet or soldiers amulet builds with toughness that wont help vs conditions and they use all sorts of protection but no condition removal skills.

You really like to use broad terms like “all” and “always.” The burden is on you to show a trend and present real proof that AR needs to be changed. Where are “all these shamans amulet or soldier amulet builds?” You are only referring to the one that was featured in a very hastily put together video that many of us agree is not representative of a real game play situation.

I’ve already started taking the trait less often because it’s too easily countered in team fights. I will repeat this—because you seem to refuse to acknowledge that nothing is balanced within a bubble—this game is not about duels. We all know that 1v1 situations arise, but they are not (and should not) be what the game’s balance rests on.

At my current level of play (ranks 30s to high 40s) I see players making adjustments all the time. For example, I was bunkering home point when an elementalist jumped me. After approximate 15 seconds of beating (I know because my healing turret came off cooldown) on me, he realized that I wasn’t going to go down in a reasonable amount of time. He use RTL to disengage and was at mid in seconds where he could do the most good. They won the fight at mid, and then not even half a minute later a mesmer appeared at my point who then wrecked me. That is what this game is about. It is about movement, pressure, winning even odds fights based on coordination, and also using your teammates to press numerical advantages. Why? Because it is VERY hard to lose a 2v1, 3v2, 4v3, etc. Those are the fights you want to get into.

If AR could turn 1v2s, and 2v3s into easy wins or perpetual stalemates, a lot of us would agree with you. The fact is, it isn’t behaving this way, so we don’t agree with you.

Search the forums, AR was rarely talked about. I think it’s hilarious all of the sudden with the condition meta we have necros raging they can’t wtfstomp us.

To make AR really useful you need to find someway to get a little vitality into your build, which can be challenging. Without vitality, it’s as simple as calling in some direct damage to down us. I guess the face rolling necros that have shelved their thiefs this month are upset they have to lift their face off the keyboard when they come across a engi with AR. I find it funny…

Hey we weren’t allowed to have 100nades, so stuff yer kitten with it.

Grackleflint.4956:

Zelulose.8695:

Ichishi.9613:

that would be a minor master trait at best then.
and wouldn’t do a thing against any proper condition build
condition builds NEED to have counters

They already do. Its simply a choice. Do you want to spec against physical damage or condition damage. Because I see all these shamans amulet or soldiers amulet builds with toughness that wont help vs conditions and they use all sorts of protection but no condition removal skills.

You really like to use broad terms like “all” and “always.” The burden is on you to show a trend and present real proof that AR needs to be changed. Where are “all these shamans amulet or soldier amulet builds?” You are only referring to the one that was featured in a very hastily put together video that many of us agree is not representative of a real game play situation.

I’ve already started taking the trait less often because it’s too easily countered in team fights. I will repeat this—because you seem to refuse to acknowledge that nothing is balanced within a bubble—this game is not about duels. We all know that 1v1 situations arise, but they are not (and should not) be what the game’s balance rests on.

At my current level of play (ranks 30s to high 40s) I see players making adjustments all the time. For example, I was bunkering home point when an elementalist jumped me. After approximate 15 seconds of beating (I know because my healing turret came off cooldown) on me, he realized that I wasn’t going to go down in a reasonable amount of time. He use RTL to disengage and was at mid in seconds where he could do the most good. They won the fight at mid, and then not even half a minute later a mesmer appeared at my point who then wrecked me. That is what this game is about. It is about movement, pressure, winning even odds fights based on coordination, and also using your teammates to press numerical advantages. Why? Because it is VERY hard to lose a 2v1, 3v2, 4v3, etc. Those are the fights you want to get into.

If AR could turn 1v2s, and 2v3s into easy wins or perpetual stalemates, a lot of us would agree with you. The fact is, it isn’t behaving this way, so we don’t agree with you.

You misunderstand, I’m trying to say that Gw2 isn’t a game where one player can bunker to everything now. They must make a choice to bunker vs conditions or bunker vs physical damage. The reason people think there is a condition meta is because everyone has been able to do both before the necromancer came on the scene. I really am not asking for an AR nerf I just want Anet to look at it to be sure its fair.

Terrahero.9358:

Obscure One.4357:

I’m not saying that Automated Response is overpowered, or that it’s even particularly an amazing trait as it’s really just there as a “last stand” type of option especially when combined with other @25% traits (inventions minor to recharge heal, tools minor to recharge tool belt, Self-Regulating for Elixir S).

The issue I have with the trait is that it has no cool down, and thus has a superior mechanic to options like Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser and Armor Mod which are both also Grandmaster traits. Image if instead of having internal cooldowns these always triggered while below 25%. Constant blocking and blinding, while not universally effective, is enough to shut down certain play styles. Again even if this were the case folks could still rain hate on the Engineer and kill it, and wouldn’t be over powered traits.

Preferably I’d like to see Automated Response turn all conditions into random boons at 25% and take 50% less condition damage and 50% lower condition duration for 10 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. Additionally I’d like to see Elixir C produce an identical effect, making the resulting trait simply be:

Automated Response: “Drink Elixir C at 25% health.”

It’s both a buff and a nerf since now Self-Regulating Defenses would proc with a condition clear, making it an amazing trait combination.

It doesnt have a cooldown, sure. It also does absolutely NOTHING against non-conditions. And as far as we know it doesnt reduce the duration of existing conditions already on the target. And it isnt an immunity, it lowers duration meaning condition damage can still get through regardless. The 25% health is an ideal situation.

This trait is as specialized as the builds that it counters. And when the meta shifts away again from Conditions Errywhere, it will once again become an underwhelming trait no one picks up.

This is a trait that has been pretty much unchanged since launch. Yet only very recently have people started to complain about it. If the meta could change to where this trait is usefull, the meta can just as easily change (back) to a situation where its mostly useless.

I like that there are traits like these around, that when a certain build or playstyle gets a little to popular, these counter-builds suddenly become worthwhile to play as simply to act as a predator for the FotM builds.

I’m not concerned with no talent flavor of the month builds. What I am concerned with is trait viability and build diversity. Hard countering conditions is one specialization that’s getting flak from all of these no talent flavor of the month necros who are QQing because someone has countered their build. I’m content to let the witless idiots continue crying their river of tears all across the forums. This isn’t my focus with the design change as it would make me as equally short sighted as those unskilled class hoping, exploit seeking, meta abusers.

The trait simply needs reworked, current meta excluded. Ideally such a rework could be coupled with improvements to other options, such as Elixir C. Would this rework include reclassifying Automated Response as a Master tier trait? Sure, why not. Perhaps a buff to other traits like Acidic Coating could be given and pushed into the Grandmaster slot. ANet has already demonstrated a malleable approach to traits and this sort of thing would fit within that style of game updating and rebalancing.

Obscure One.4357:

ANet has already demonstrated a malleable approach to traits and this sort of thing would fit within that style of game updating and rebalancing.

Yeah, like with Kit Refinement, sure.

Manuhell.2759:

Obscure One.4357:

ANet has already demonstrated a malleable approach to traits and this sort of thing would fit within that style of game updating and rebalancing.

Yeah, like with Kit Refinement, sure.

Sure that nerfed a vast array of builds that used it, but it can be useful in some builds, and relevantly the one I use with Automated Response. Once I hit 25% health I swap to med kit for a reflect and use Elixir C to cure existing conditions if I’m up against some condition spammer. Additionally with Acidic Elixirs and CF409 I can cut boons off them (and shed more conditions off of myself if need be) to make my escape without fear of snaring from movement conditions. When safely away I heal up and get back to the business.

Am I disappointed with the blatant nerfs tossed into my class with no compensation to provide alternative build diversity? Of course! I miss 100nades, Juggernaut stability, Elixir R, Kit Refinement, and utilities in Elixir S form just as much as the next guy. That’s the principle reason for my suggestion. It nerfs an existing spec that has a limited viability to begin with, and broadens build diversity. Sick of dying from incurable conditions in Elixir S? With my concept you’d have a trait option to remedy that.

If we talk about terror necros that are on the rise now – you won’t counter them without reliable stability or stun-breaking/ignoring condition cure.
Automated response is pretty much the only thing that works perfectly against them.

A trait like the one Obscure proposes would be near useless. Unless we specifically trait for it – and that usually requires HGH, the alternate grandmaster trait of the same tree – the burst capabilities of the class are non-existant. Giving 10s of reduced condition damage/duration would just delay our death, cause we won’t kill anyone during that timeframe, especially after we’ve spent almost half of our trait point to take that.
And we would still have to slot condition removals anyway – the only passive one we’ve got is transmute, an 8% chance of converting incoming ones in boons (that means it doesn’t actually remove anything preexistant, it just randomly converts some of the stacks we’re receiving).
So it would be useless for offensive purposes, and useless for defensive ones. One would just use a guardian for that purpose then.

Manuhell.2759:

A trait like the one Obscure proposes would be near useless. Unless we specifically trait for it – and that usually requires HGH, the alternate grandmaster trait of the same tree – the burst capabilities of the class are non-existant. Giving 10s of reduced condition damage/duration would just delay our death, cause we won’t kill anyone during that timeframe, especially after we’ve spent almost half of our trait point to take that.
And we would still have to slot condition removals anyway – the only passive one we’ve got is transmute, an 8% chance of converting incoming ones in boons (that means it doesn’t actually remove anything preexistant, it just randomly converts some of the stacks we’re receiving).
So it would be useless for offensive purposes, and useless for defensive ones. One would just use a guardian for that purpose then.

This argument is shortsighted. Runes of Melandru plus lemongrass poultry soup would stack with this reduction for a condition to boon conversion with 105%(100% is presumed to be the maximum) condition duration reduction for 10 seconds. In sPvP this translates to a condition to boon conversion with a -65% condition duration since food cannot be used (Rune of Hoelbrak would be the better option for 70% reduction). Of which could be used twice as this would be the function of Elixir C as well as the trait. A total of 20 seconds of up time which, when Fast Acting Elixirs and Potent Elixirs are put into the equation, becomes a highly sustainable option.

Please present your future baseless accusations of worthlessness with mechanical support instead of arbitrary dismissal. Saves me time refuting them thusly.

Edit: numerical errors

Obscure One.4357:

This argument is shortsighted. Runes of Melandru plus lemongrass poultry soup would stack with this reduction for a condition to boon conversion with 105%(100% is presumed to be the maximum) condition duration reduction for 10 seconds. In sPvP this translates to a condition to boon conversion with a -65% condition duration since food cannot be used (Rune of Hoelbrak would be the better option for 70% reduction). Of which could be used twice as this would be the function of Elixir C as well as the trait. A total of 20 seconds of up time which, when Fast Acting Elixirs and Potent Elixirs are put into the equation, becomes a highly sustainable option.

Please present your future baseless accusations of worthlessness with mechanical support instead of arbitrary dismissal. Saves me time refuting them thusly.

Edit: numerical errors

You’ve spent all your runes, almost half of the trait points and an utility slot just to decrease the condition damage dealt by the enemy, for a definite uptime. Half of that is actually triggered by the enemy, that can waste it at his leisure (and since you build all around that trait, basically making your build worthless). And you haven’t still got nothing to defeat your enemy or to protect yourself when the uptime isn’t up – we lack passive removals. And it is near useless toward power builds – its activation at 25% hp will be basically wasted toward them. You can’t stack might decently – you’ve no hgh after all – and no reliable ways of getting protection – no protection injection, no protection from runes, you can at most get around 4s protection every 20s when critted. Along with no stability, of course, unless you use elixir X. Also, you still lack a stun break.
You lack the offense necessary for an offensive build – cause we’re supposed to use HGH for that purpose if we’re going for the elixir tree.
And you lack the defensive measures necessary for a bunker – cause you’ve spent too much to make up for the poor grandmaster trait in a class that has already got poor passive condition removal, no reliable protection and near to no stability. And thus would be outclassed in every area by a guardian bunker.

Manuhell.2759:

Obscure One.4357:

This argument is shortsighted. Runes of Melandru plus lemongrass poultry soup would stack with this reduction for a condition to boon conversion with 105%(100% is presumed to be the maximum) condition duration reduction for 10 seconds. In sPvP this translates to a condition to boon conversion with a -65% condition duration since food cannot be used (Rune of Hoelbrak would be the better option for 70% reduction). Of which could be used twice as this would be the function of Elixir C as well as the trait. A total of 20 seconds of up time which, when Fast Acting Elixirs and Potent Elixirs are put into the equation, becomes a highly sustainable option.

Please present your future baseless accusations of worthlessness with mechanical support instead of arbitrary dismissal. Saves me time refuting them thusly.

Edit: numerical errors

You’ve spent all your runes, almost half of the trait points and an utility slot just to decrease the condition damage dealt by the enemy, for a definite uptime. Half of that is actually triggered by the enemy, that can waste it at his leisure (and since you build all around that trait, basically making your build worthless). And you haven’t still got nothing to defeat your enemy or to protect yourself when the uptime isn’t up – we lack passive removals. And it is near useless toward power builds – its activation at 25% hp will be basically wasted toward them. You can’t stack might decently – you’ve no hgh after all – and no reliable ways of getting protection – no protection injection, no protection from runes, you can at most get around 4s protection every 20s when critted. Along with no stability, of course, unless you use elixir X. Also, you still lack a stun break.
You lack the offense necessary for an offensive build – cause we’re supposed to use HGH for that purpose if we’re going for the elixir tree.
And you lack the defensive measures necessary for a bunker – cause you’ve spent too much to make up for the poor grandmaster trait in a class that has already got poor passive condition removal, no reliable protection and near to no stability. And thus would be outclassed in every area by a guardian bunker.

Specialized build = Specialized counter-build.

It’s called preserving game balance. Discounting that there’s still 40 trait points that’re apparently not going to make any difference in build composition in your arguement. This discredits the argument without me needing to do so.

That is of course not to mention my suggestion doesn’t discount the possibility (and likelihood) of turning Automated Response into a master tier trait, broadening build diversity.

Obscure One.4357:

Specialized build = Specialized counter-build.

It’s called preserving game balance. Discounting that there’s still 40 trait points that’re apparently not going to make any difference in build composition in your arguement. This discredits the argument without me needing to do so.

Yeah, they won’t make any difference, despite all you can say (that is, nothing, as it appears).
Cause if you’re going for an offensive build either you don’t put points on vitality, or you get HGH – and if your AR is still a grandmaster trait, you can’t do it. But even so, you would have to find a compromise – we’ve got the trait regarding protection on disable and all the ones regarding elixirs there.
If you’re going for a defensive one, you’re spending too much about a debatable defense regarding conditions in a class that still lacks passive removals, on-demand access on protection and decent access to stability. You can’t do much with the trait points about this issue anyway. You can use those other 2 utilities in the way you prefer – you’ll have to get a stun breaker probably, and another weapon. But it would be useless anyway, cause you lack the offense necessary to kill your opponent and you will die in the long run.
Let’s be serious, the engineer is outclassed by guardians in every area as a bunker. Aegis, access to protection, retaliation and stability, sustain; and they are free to take a second weapon for CC skills, like an hammer, on top on having a main hand+shield.
The only thing we may be able to do better is bunkering versus heavily specialized condition builds with the current AR, and even then doing so makes us extremely vulnerable to power builds.
Remove the current AR, and we can avoid bunkering altogether. We would have to specialize to be still…master of none. And why even bother, then?

Obscure One.4357:

That is of course not to mention my suggestion doesn’t discount the possibility (and likelihood) of turning Automated Response into a master tier trait, broadening build diversity.

So you would rather overhaul it completely. As i said above, with the class as it is now, such a change would make the engineer completely useless as a bunker compared to the guardians. You wouldn’t broad anything anyway – the class would still lack passive removals and you would still be obliged in taking elixir C (not to talk about how a mess would be that tree – we already have got a lot of traits competing there).
An heavy investment to be still master of none.

Now, what i would ask is: are we perhaps supposed to be bad in everything we do even when we heavily specialize in something? Cause according to the people that want this trait nerfed, that is exactly how we should be. If a comparison with another class has us with the upper hand, then people whine for nerfs. When the other classes have got something better than us, then it is all fine and good.

In other news, Zelulose is completely off the rails. He posted a new thread in PVP griping about “invulnerable” thieves with a video attached. The video “proof” of this is him spamming Disabling Shot on a target dummy and using Roll for Initiative on cooldown.

So not only is he on the warpath against passive traits, he doesn’t like active skills. However, he can’t be bothered to show how this breaks the game with real game play footage. Typical of Zel and the other 2-3 people taking up his banner.

Manuhell.2759:

Obscure One.4357:

Specialized build = Specialized counter-build.

It’s called preserving game balance. Discounting that there’s still 40 trait points that’re apparently not going to make any difference in build composition in your arguement. This discredits the argument without me needing to do so.

Yeah, they won’t make any difference, despite all you can say (that is, nothing, as it appears).

Your continued baseless dismissals I will take as admission of your inability to disprove me, and thus accepting that I am in fact presenting a viable suggestion. Thank you for your support.

Let’s be serious, the engineer is outclassed by guardians in every area as a bunker. Aegis, access to protection, retaliation and stability, sustain; and they are free to take a second weapon for CC skills, like an hammer, on top on having a main hand+shield.
The only thing we may be able to do better is bunkering versus heavily specialized condition builds with the current AR, and even then doing so makes us extremely vulnerable to power builds.
Remove the current AR, and we can avoid bunkering altogether. We would have to specialize to be still…master of none. And why even bother, then?

Automated Response is not good, and really hasn’t ever been considered even remotely viable until the recent, “I can’t be killed by condition necros” nonsense began. Now all of a sudden it’s the “Engineers One and Only Hope” against any and all things conditions, when I have literally NEVER consistently run this trait outside of simple build testing and have ALWAYS had reliable condition management without it. Your case has no traction based on historical builds, and particularly among bunkers, in all of which I have never once included this trait in my build composition.

Obscure One.4357:

That is of course not to mention my suggestion doesn’t discount the possibility (and likelihood) of turning Automated Response into a master tier trait, broadening build diversity.

So you would rather overhaul it completely. As i said above, with the class as it is now, such a change would make the engineer completely useless as a bunker compared to the guardians. You wouldn’t broad anything anyway – the class would still lack passive removals and you would still be obliged in taking elixir C (not to talk about how a mess would be that tree – we already have got a lot of traits competing there).
An heavy investment to be still master of none.

Now, what i would ask is: are we perhaps supposed to be bad in everything we do even when we heavily specialize in something? Cause according to the people that want this trait nerfed, that is exactly how we should be. If a comparison with another class has us with the upper hand, then people whine for nerfs. When the other classes have got something better than us, then it is all fine and good.

Now, since it’s in the public eye, we’re discussing it and the general consensus is it needs to be changed. Whining about this trait date backs to March of last year on both sides of the fence. “Needs a buff!” and “Needs a nerf!” have surrounded this trait for a very long time, so long in fact I think I recall saying awful things about it on a Guru thread around launch.

The only thing it nerfs is the ability to ignore pure condition builds at 25% HP and under…that’s literally it. It’s nerfing something that was underwhelming to begin with as any power/crit/crit damage zerker roamer will tell you. This is not a matter of “OMFG Engi OP”, as I clearly indicated in my initial post, so please get that nonsense out of your head that’s dripping all over this thread wiped from the eyes of all those QQ’ers who are apparently incapable of seeing reason. The present flavor of the month condition builds in sPvP and the puddles of tears all over the thread being left behind by their players aren’t inherently relevant to anything that I’m suggesting. Just so happens this trait is finally getting some attention, since even Engineers primarily ignored it because of how poor of an option it was and remains. Big whoop, it hard counters Necros and Mesmers who condition spec. when under 25% hp. As soon as these players quit crying long enough to tweak their builds for a bit more direct damage this trait goes right back to being in the build trait discard pile.

Hence, my suggestion to FIX it while people are talking about it, rather than A) side with people who irrationally think this is the best Engineer build option ever or B) side with the people who irrationally want to nerf it because its sooooo Overpowered.

Both groups are lunatics and I choose C) make it a good trait.