Guild Wars 2

Nades are fun and all, but they get very dull very quickly. Is using a HGH build with Flamethrower viable, or would it simply be an inferior HGH nade build?

I’m thinking of 0/30/0/30/10 with more tanky gear taking advantage of Juggernaut with HGH with a pistol and shield so i have 3 interrupts with blow back. Would this be decent or have we been just forced into Nade kit or a SD build with toolkit only?

Since they removed the double pop on FT 2 no it’s not really viable. Sure you can make a build for kittens and giggles but don’t plan on killing anyone.

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Punkins.2087:

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Have fun competing with your build against a HGH condi nade engi.

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Have fun competing with your build against a HGH condi nade engi.

What?? Don’t change the subject.. log in and fight me. Or, just keep blowing chunk..

Punkins.2087:

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Have fun competing with your build against a HGH condi nade engi.

What?? Don’t change the subject.. log in and fight me. Or, just keep blowing chunk..

I’m not changing the subject, and I’m also banned for 4 more hours. Stop being such an internet tough guy brah.

edit: I know you want to be some sort of “unique butterfly” in this game but sorry it just doesn’t cut it.

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Have fun competing with your build against a HGH condi nade engi.

What?? Don’t change the subject.. log in and fight me. Or, just keep blowing chunk..

I’m not changing the subject, and I’m also banned for 4 more hours. Stop being such an internet tough guy brah.

edit: I know you want to be some sort of “unique butterfly” in this game but sorry it just doesn’t cut it.

Nothing of the sort.

Its simple:

1) You fools babble about how broken the engy is.

2) I offer to PROVE that it is not.

3) Respondents either log in and lose a substantial portion of our fights, get dominated, or just fail entirely and won’t even fight.

Ironically, I’m not even claiming to be nearly a great player. Even more evidence that the class is fine and most of you just suck.

If I’m a “unique butterfly” because I love the class as is, and don’t want to see it dumbed down to make you lazy clickers happy… sure, I’ll wear that.

Hence, you’re just more babble in the sea of noise.

Punkins.2087:

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Have fun competing with your build against a HGH condi nade engi.

What?? Don’t change the subject.. log in and fight me. Or, just keep blowing chunk..

I’m not changing the subject, and I’m also banned for 4 more hours. Stop being such an internet tough guy brah.

edit: I know you want to be some sort of “unique butterfly” in this game but sorry it just doesn’t cut it.

Nothing of the sort.

Its simple:

1) You fools babble about how broken the engy is.

2) I offer to PROVE that it is not.

3) Respondents either log in and lose a substantial portion of our fights, or just fail entirely and won’t even fight.

Ironically, I’m not even claiming to be nearly a great player. Even more evidence that the class is fine and most of you just suck.

If I’m a “unique butterfly” because I love the class as is, and don’t want to see it dumbed down to make you lazy clickers happy… sure, I’ll wear that.

Hence, you’re just more babble in the sea of noise.

I don’t know what you mean by “broken”, but from the context of your response I am under the influence you mean people are saying the class is kitten I don’t know where you get this influence from but the general notion is that the engineer is actually currently one of the top classes in tournament setting PvP, so you are actually wrong there.

What I’m saying :

Why use a flamethrower when grenade kit scales way better with power and condition damage.

Why use a flamethrower when grenades can be used to help team fights from 1500 range away.

When are you going to use your flamethrower other than the knock back and the smoke field.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for using a variety of builds but grenade kit by far surpasses anything you want to do with flamethrower kit.

waka.9826:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for using a variety of builds but grenade kit by far surpasses anything you want to do with flamethrower kit.

like what?

top end dmg? No one has ever disputed that.

but the Ft is superior at point control and damage mitigation. the best grenades have is a chill. you need other traits to add CC, reducing the room you have for cc removal.

ft has ft 3, 5, and is often paired with a rifle for rifle 2, and 4. add in a net turret and you have even more cc.

PLEASE, everyone, STOP trying to compare the two specs as if they were supposed to be the same. they are not. they are for different ways of playing. mace guardians do not complain about having less over all dmg than other guardians, but they bring different things to the table.

same thing for ft vs nades.

nades = high dps, some control.
ft = high control, some dps.

why is this so difficult for everyone?

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

waka.9826:

Punkins.2087:

Yes its viable. Use P/P instead of shield. And rabid gear .

Waka, ill be on shortly if you’d like to test your theory.

Have fun competing with your build against a HGH condi nade engi.

What?? Don’t change the subject.. log in and fight me. Or, just keep blowing chunk..

I’m not changing the subject, and I’m also banned for 4 more hours. Stop being such an internet tough guy brah.

edit: I know you want to be some sort of “unique butterfly” in this game but sorry it just doesn’t cut it.

Nothing of the sort.

Its simple:

1) You fools babble about how broken the engy is.

2) I offer to PROVE that it is not.

3) Respondents either log in and lose a substantial portion of our fights, or just fail entirely and won’t even fight.

Ironically, I’m not even claiming to be nearly a great player. Even more evidence that the class is fine and most of you just suck.

If I’m a “unique butterfly” because I love the class as is, and don’t want to see it dumbed down to make you lazy clickers happy… sure, I’ll wear that.

Hence, you’re just more babble in the sea of noise.

I don’t know what you mean by “broken”, but from the context of your response I am under the influence you mean people are saying the class is kitten I don’t know where you get this influence from but the general notion is that the engineer is actually currently one of the top classes in tournament setting PvP, so you are actually wrong there.

What I’m saying :

Why use a flamethrower when grenade kit scales way better with power and condition damage.

Why use a flamethrower when grenades can be used to help team fights from 1500 range away.

When are you going to use your flamethrower other than the knock back and the smoke field.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for using a variety of builds but grenade kit by far surpasses anything you want to do with flamethrower kit.

One thing you can do with Flamethrower though is focus on always having burn on your target. The on-demand smoke even while stunned is handy and the push is on a decent cooldown. This Juggernaut you can also have decent survivability without going heavily into toughness. It’s also waaaay easier to hit your targets with the flamethrower especially since it now hits almost everything in front of you.

The FT seems to bring more utility to the table than nade kit while still dealing decent damage.

Edit: never really used rifle with FT but I could for sure see all the wonderful control it could bring to the table, in PvP with Rabid gear you could be pretty tough as well, turning you into a front-liner rather than mid.

It also synergises well with the elixir gun. The KR nerf is a significant hit in that area, but to be perfectly honest I tended to regard that as more ‘nice to have’ than essential.

I’ll log on my necro or gaurdian if anyone wants to test the usefulness of the flamethrower post patch vs me …hell i’ll even whip out the elementalist or mesmer ^.^.

Tbh, in spvp i won almost every encounter with a FT user on my main professions…(even with the double pop bug).grenade users are the only ones that ever beat me (not always, but it feels more like a fair fight). FT needs slightly higher damage ramping, and a higher cap on targets for its auto attack…otherwise i just melt FT users with retaliation and superior damage. (maybe replace napalm with a boon removal…“shoots out fire that burns off players boons?”)

Its supposed to be a weapon kit not a utility kit (same with elixer gun). They’re supposed to be worth keeping out for more than 3 seconds before putting back (thus why juggernaut trait rewards you for keeping the FT out majority of the time). However, this is a bad decision right now..

In non-condition Builds (Pre-patch) the Flamethrower Kits Flame Blast’s “Double Pop” aloud you to apply pressure by utilizing actual power. This power came in a form that required notable skill to fully utilize even against opponents that are not used to seeing the Flamethrower Kit in a competitive format. This opened the door way to more unique applications of the Flamethrower Kit amongs multiple builds while simulatiously keeping its DPS incheck. Allowing it to only apply its greater damage to foes who choose to stay in a 600 range was an excellent inhibitor to maintain balance. Forcing the Flamethrower Kit’s true potential to come from placement and control. (Which is arguably an Engineers forte)

Unfortunately, since this has been removed the Flamethrower Kit has lost it’s viability in deep PvP environments. Granted its condition based utility is still functioning, (even though most Engineer players I have talked too feel there are much more efficient condition options)

The loss of the Flame Blast’s “Double Pop” has severely hurt its application in PvP meta, and that is not just simply my opinion.

So to answer the OP: The Flamethrower Kit’s viability is very limited, and in its current state would be most applicable in very specific condition builds primarily for its tool belt ability Incendiary ammo and for its quick Knock Back and decent attack speed for applying “on crit” effects. (Opinion) But even with these facts there are a lot more viable options in condition builds makings the removal of the “Double Pop” simply hurt the over-all effectiveness of this kit as a whole.

Zinwrath.2049:

I’ll log on my necro or gaurdian if anyone wants to test the usefulness of the flamethrower post patch vs me …hell i’ll even whip out the elementalist or mesmer ^.^.

Tbh, in spvp i won almost every encounter with a FT user on my main professions…(even with the double pop bug).grenade users are the only ones that ever beat me (not always, but it feels more like a fair fight). FT needs slightly higher damage ramping, and a higher cap on targets for its auto attack…otherwise i just melt FT users with retaliation and superior damage. (maybe replace napalm with a boon removal…“shoots out fire that burns off players boons?”)

Its supposed to be a weapon kit not a utility kit (same with elixer gun). They’re supposed to be worth keeping out for more than 3 seconds before putting back (thus why juggernaut trait rewards you for keeping the FT out majority of the time). However, this is a bad decision right now..

I just wanted to agree with this post. Particarly “supposed to be a weapon kit not a utility kit”. For this is what I feel the Flamethrower Kit has been pigeon holed into, in general, not to mention since the removal of the “Double Pop”.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Nades are fun and all, but they get very dull very quickly. Is using a HGH build with Flamethrower viable, or would it simply be an inferior HGH nade build?

I’m thinking of 0/30/0/30/10 with more tanky gear taking advantage of Juggernaut with HGH with a pistol and shield so i have 3 interrupts with blow back. Would this be decent or have we been just forced into Nade kit or a SD build with toolkit only?

Well, I use neither the Grenade Kit nor the Static Discharge build and I do just fine in tPvP (which is honestly greatly overrated in how different it is from hotjoin matches). I do use the P/P + Tool Kit frequently, but I don’t use HGH and don’t need it. I used to, pre-patch. But I’ve since taken the Kit Refinement nerf as reason to heavily experiment with stuff and have noticed that the damage difference is almost negligible while at the same time having significantly boosted survivability with traits like Protection Injection.

You don’t need HGH with your Flamethrower either, because Juggernaut gives you 5-10 stacks of Might already (depending on your Boon Duration). I’m still trying out different variations with the Flamethrower since the nerf to Kit Refinement but I have used the Pistol + Shield with a Carrion trinket in both hotjoin and tourneys with moderate success.

I suggest you ignore the trolls, too. It seems like everybody hates the Flamethrower and thinks it’s useless until you notice it’s the same 5 people in every thread parroting the same misinformation. Grenade Kit will dish out more damage, but the Flamethrower has its own strengths.

Against my better judgment, I’ll bite.

waka.9826:

Why use a flamethrower when grenade kit scales way better with power and condition damage.

Because for one thing, it doesn’t.

Flame Jet scales x1.5 of your Power value.
Grenade (#1) scales x0.45 of your Power value per grenade.

1.5 > 1.35

What makes the difference is that Grenade has a .8/second attack speed, which is obviously faster than Flame Jet’s 2.25 second casting channel. So in the end the Grenade Kit will do more damage than the Flamethrower, but it does not scale better with Power, especially given that Flame Blast factors in x1.75 Power in its damage, far better than anything the Grenade Kit has.

Where the Grenade Kit excels is in Condition Damage, where you were right to point out. Bleed stacking with the Grenade Kit is the best that we have.

waka.9826:

Why use a flamethrower when grenades can be used to help team fights from 1500 range away.

Why should anyone play a Guardian over Ranger?

waka.9826:

When are you going to use your flamethrower other than the knock back and the smoke field.

The Flamethrower has no smoke field. It should. But it doesn’t.

waka.9826:

but grenade kit by far surpasses anything you want to do with flamethrower kit.

The Grenade Kit is great at doing a few things: Bleed stacking, rolling a glass cannon, and attacking from range.

Correct me if I’m mistaken, but none of these roles involve capturing, controlling, or protecting points. The Grenade Kit can chill and blind people, but it cannot toss anyone out like Air Blast does. It has no interrupts, either. It has no Fire field. It does not grant 200 Toughness when wielding it or passively stack Might.

All of this being said, I think the Flamethrower needs some work. For one thing, I would like it if Smoke Vent was a Smoke field. I would like it if Napalm was circular. I would like it if Flame Blast was a Blast finisher.

If they did these three things, the Flamethrower in my mind would be “balanced.”

But even without these changes, the implication that the Grenade Kit is a better option than the Flamethrower in all situations is quite frankly absurd.

I like the FT. If you spec swiftness and vigor effects (Infused Precision and Invigorating speed are a great combination) this allows you to maintain speed with an opponent as well as having extra endurance regen.

I often use the FT with either a Net Turret (for more mobility restrictions on them) or the Elixir Gun (for added healing, condition, and also mobility).

If you’re a power FT user, I’d recommend Utility Goggles due to their stunbreak nature with added fury (always helpful!) and the toolbelt ability to apply a 10 stack of vulnerability on an enemy (+10% damage!). Elixir U is still viable even with the reduced effectiveness of Quickness, because the Toss Elixikittenll is now a powerful defensive ability. Toss it, then drink it for maximum effect!

Edited: I took out my “just fine” because I am also offering ideas to balance it vs other weapons.

Ya know phineas, i read your whole post which sounded almost like you were argueing that the Flamethrower was viable and balanced….and then at the end of it all you said this.

Phineas Poe.3018:

All of this being said, I think the Flamethrower needs some work. For one thing, I would like it if Smoke Vent was a Smoke field. I would like it if Napalm was circular. I would like it if Flame Blast was a Blast finisher.

If they did these three things, the Flamethrower in my mind would be “balanced.”

So in the end, you agree its too weak and not balanced, thus not viable.

But yea, anyone whos part of a sponsored team (who actually gives a kitten about whether they win or lose) will admit to the FT’s weak and thus not viable. Its been known since launch which is why its got all the buffs they’ve given it, but it still isnt enough and i beleive they know it.

Grenades however was buffed earlier on and thus too good, and has slowly been made weaker…but is still extremely good (no longer requires LoS is one buff it did receive lately however).

But like phineas said, FT needs buffs to be balanced. You can pick something that is under powered needing buffs going into a fight, or you can grab something that is considered too good and thus constantly on the table for nerfs. I suppose it all comes down to whether you want to win or not. If you dont care about winning, trait and use FT. Just make sure your on the opposing team when i’m in spvp, i like seeing those flames and knowing i’m about to get a free kill.

Zinwrath.2049:

So in the end, you agree its too weak and not balanced, thus not viable.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

I never called the kit weak, imbalanced, or not viable. I said it needs work.

And I couldn’t care less if someone was sponsored or not. I’ve been playing the class for six months. I have just as much right to talk about it as anyone else.

At present time I don’t view the FT as viable for anything besides grinding in Orr (getting lots of loot there though).

So for me the FT would need some modifications/improvements in order to become viable in other gameplay modes.

I’ll offer my suggestions regarding the Flamethrower:

• FT#1: Increase range to 600 and also have it also apply 1s Burning on the first hit.
• FT#2: Make this a Blast Finisher.
• FT#3: Reduce Knockback distance from 400 to 300.
• FT#4: Change from line to a circle or area-effect 240 radius around the Engineer.
• FT#5: Make this a Combo Field: Smoke 3s or change it back to Backdraft.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backdraft

Incendiary Ammo could also do with a little reduction on its currently ridiculous cooldown; perhaps reducing it to 45s? 45s still seems rather long for such a toolbelt skill, but the current 60s is just way too long in my opinion.

Also, I wouldn’t mind Juggernaut going back to giving Stability at the cost of reduced movement speed (the old Juggernaut). That way FT would fill the role of short-range point/bottleneck defender

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Juggernaut&oldid=209198

I know that implementing all my suggestions might make the FT overpowered (on paper), but with ANet’s apparent philosophy of ‘buff something by 5-10% = nerf something else by 50-100%’ I think they may want to try it the other way around some time.

And you know what I would like to have? A FT#1 ability similar to the one used by the Flame Legion in CoF!

^_^

Phineas Poe.3018:

Zinwrath.2049:

So in the end, you agree its too weak and not balanced, thus not viable.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

I never called the kit weak, imbalanced, or not viable. I said it needs work.

And I couldn’t care less if someone was sponsored or not. I’ve been playing the class for six months. I have just as much right to talk about it as anyone else.

not putting words in your mouth. your words were if you gave it those 3 buffs it would

(If they did these three things, the Flamethrower in my mind would be “balanced.”)

thats your words. You said if it received the 3 buffs you mentioned it would be balanced. So by saying giving it multiple buffs would make it balanced, you are suggesting that without those buffs it is NOT balanced…infact needing buffs to be balanced, thus being weaker than balanced….and any thing in the game that is weaker than balanced compared to other options, is not viable competively because you are giving yourself a handicap by picking something that is less than balanced.

So in your statement, you ARE saying it is NOT balanced….it is WEAK …and with any strain of logic would mean…NOT VIABLE.

So yes, your words.

I personally miss the condition removal from the old Kit refinement a lot.
They really should have kept that one. That’s where the KR changes hurt the most.

They should have removed it from EG, but NOT from FT…

Aveneo.2068:

At present time I don’t view the FT as viable for anything besides grinding in Orr (getting lots of loot there though).

So for me the FT would need some modifications/improvements in order to become viable in other gameplay modes.

I’ll offer my suggestions regarding the Flamethrower:

• FT#1: Increase range to 600 and also have it also apply 1s Burning on the first hit.
• FT#2: Make this a Blast Finisher.
• FT#3: Reduce Knockback distance from 400 to 300.
• FT#4: Change from line to a circle or area-effect 240 radius around the Engineer.
• FT#5: Make this a Combo Field: Smoke 3s or change it back to Backdraft.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backdraft

Incendiary Ammo could also do with a little reduction on its currently ridiculous cooldown; perhaps reducing it to 45s? 45s still seems rather long for such a toolbelt skill, but the current 60s is just way too long in my opinion.

Also, I wouldn’t mind Juggernaut going back to giving Stability at the cost of reduced movement speed (the old Juggernaut). That way FT would fill the role of short-range point/bottleneck defender

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Juggernaut&oldid=209198

I know that implementing all my suggestions might make the FT overpowered (on paper), but with ANet’s apparent philosophy of ‘buff something by 5-10% = nerf something else by 50-100%’ I think they may want to try it the other way around some time.

And you know what I would like to have? A FT#1 ability similar to the one used by the Flame Legion in CoF!

^_^

The kit in my mind is supposed to be a lot like dagger for necromancer.

Bulk of your dps is supposed to be in the first ability.
2nd ability a decent hitting damage used to fill another utility (lets say blast finisher/longer range aoe?)
3rd abiilty is some kind of cc.

Now most weapon skills 5th abilities are on a longer cd and have an effect that is rather serious. The aoe blind on FT currently is not on par with other weapons #5.

the 4th ability napalm is fine in power for a 4th ability i beleive, except that it has no synergy with the rest of the attacks on the weapon kit. Most weapons abilties seem to work together in some way, this ability is a wall thus only good for applying 1 sec burn to those who run through it, and no benefit to you for walking through it. Since the FT has no finisher of any kind, it cant take advantage of the combo field either…making it clunky, and would be better used in a circle around the FT user to allow a more practical use (lure them into the fire and punish them for being close to you..if they back out of the fire, oh well…burn them with flame jet or fire a flame blast at them).

Anyway in short, i entirely agree with the suggested buffs/changes you and others mentioned regarding 2-4 and 5. Flame jet could probably use more damage, but if you fixed napalm, i dont think it would necessarily need it.

edit" also i’d like to add the FT and EG are considered weapon kits. They behave more like a weapon then say med kit or even bomb kit. This is why their traits are in the weapon buffing trait line, why they are not effected by “unarmed” traits and share so many traits and are the only two kits you can drop from the tool trait.

So they are supposed to be worth keeping out and functioning in place of a weapon, not purely for utility…which is why their auto attacks (seem to be) really powerful parts of their abilities. (nades should not be imo..)

To further back this, the juggernaut trait rewards you for keeping the FT out instead of quickly using an ability and stowing it away. So, since it is supposed to be more of a weapon alternative, it is perfectly reasonable to compare its balance and design to a weapon.

Zinwrath.2049:

So in your statement, you ARE saying it is NOT balanced….it is WEAK …and with any strain of logic would mean…NOT VIABLE.

You’re cherry-picking a single phrase to suit your perspective even though the overwhelming majority of what I said was in favor of what I previously said.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The Grenade Kit will dish out more damage, but the Flamethrower has its own strengths.

Which I’ve already listed. More Toughness, passive Might stacking, AoE knockback, Fire field, PBAoE Blind while stunned, and perma burning.

I said it would be “balanced.” As in, with quotation marks. As in, appeasing the masses.

I think the kit is perfectly fine as-is.

Phineas Poe.3018:

All of this being said, I think the Flamethrower needs some work. For one thing, I would like it if Smoke Vent was a Smoke field. I would like it if Napalm was circular. I would like it if Flame Blast was a Blast finisher.

If they did these three things, the Flamethrower in my mind would be “balanced.”

No, Phineas. You are saying that you think it needs these changes and if it did in YOUR mind it would be balanced. Dont try to backpeddal and try to pretend like theres hidden meaning to your words. Also its not cherry picking, i took your conclusion…thus you wrote “All that being said” meaning despite everything else i wrote heres how i feel.

If you think adding things to something would make it balanced, but its balanced now thats like saying

Sam has 3 apples. Sarah has 3 apples. They have a fair and balanced amount of apples…but, I think Sam could use 3 more apples. Then Sam would be balanced with Sarah.

It doesnt work that way. Anyway, i agree with the paragraph you wrote entirely. It could use those things, and then it would be “balanced”.

Saying I would like something is not the same thing as I need something.

Saying something in the way of how to improve a kit by no way suggests that I think that the kit is not viable or is weak without it. If I felt that, I wouldn’t have written a guide on how to use it.

You misinterpreted what I said. Plain and simple.

You said to ignore the trolls, and that everyone thinks its useless (aka we think it needs buffs and is weak). And they should listen to you instead…i’m assuming.

But the thing is, you have said the flame thrower is balanced before its buffs, after its buffs, and now even suggest it would be balanced with buffs. So i’m not sure i could take stock in a guy who says the FT is balanced no matter what is given or taken away from it. Makes you look more like a fanboy of the FT instead of someone trying to think rationally about balance.

No one hates the FT, people think it is weak. So does arenanet obviously why they buffed it. You did not complain when they buffed it even though earlier you argued it was balanced and did not need buffs. Then you try to suggest people who think differently than you are trolls. This is not the case, and by quoting your own words (which you can deny it all day long and try to say theres a hidden meaning) you are saying you too are a troll. Because you are saying you want changes too…no actually your words were " Flamethrower needs some work".

Anyway, i guess we’re both trolls for wanting FT to be changed for the better.

Whatever dude. If you want to sit there and bite at my ankles rather than actually address the topic of this thread that’s your call.

When you’re ready to actually talk about the subject at hand again, I’ll check back here later on.

I did talk about the subject at hand. I agreed with the changes you suggested. I too beleive it would make the FT better even more balanced.

I beleive HGH nade is better though, because Nades are generally better. Infact arenanet notices this too, prob why nades got nerfs. TBH, i have agreed with almost every change arenanet has made lately…. I said FT needed buffs, it got buffs, i said turrets needed buffs they got buffs, i said 100 nades was too powerful it got nerfed.

if i was a betting man, i would bet on FT getting another minor buff to it directly or through a trait. (or to another seperate ability/trait that makes FT more desireable). To help it fit the role juggernaut is trying to put it into (and how your no doubt trying to use it). But untill they do that, if your gonna HGH…nades are gonna give you more for your buck and not force you deep into the firearms tree.

I think the funny thing about the removal was that Double Pop actually rewarded Engineers for playing at the so called “mid range.”

Too far and it’s not going to hit. Too close and you have to detonate it early. It syncs perfectly with the engineer’s plethora of control, and it only gets better if you used it correctly by having the ball pass over an enemy before detonating (thus using the lower portion of the damage to counter blinds or aegis)

Thank you, Phineas Poe for bringing a little sanity to the forums.

Yes, it’s viable. It’s BEEN viable for sPvP, just not as a stand-alone damage source.

Viable – 1) able to live on it’s own 2) able to be done; possible

Yes, it’s odd that FT kit isn’t a DPS kit with it’s main 2 attacks… I hardly ever use them, nor do I stay in the kit long, like you said… how that has a thing to do with if it’s good or not is beyond me, because the ammount of extra burn you can get from pistols from incendiary ammo + laying down a fire wall and firing through it is impressive, and I can’t understate the power of a (traited) AoE knockback on a 12 second CD. That is MASSIVE.

FT gets buffed because damage is bad, and it’s a CC kit. What in the world does the damage of #1 and #2 have to do with if the kit is good or not? If #5 was a stunbreak okittensecond CD, the rest of the kit could be dance animations and I would still take it along, the argument that damage = better is a PvE argument, not an sPvP or tPvP argument.

And it’s never a good idea to base what you play around the top 5% alone, especially if you’re not a top 5% quality player. Oh, and Teldo used to carry a FT, back when it was worse, grenades did even more damage than now, and other professions were better. I fail to see the point, pointing out the “these guys only use this so everything else must suck” argument.

It’s through challenging the status quo that the playerbase discovered the 100nades build that became a good tPvP build as well. And it’s through challenging all the people on the boards saying “that sucks, no point” especially when they are misinformed and dissecting semantics over play testing and brainstorming that you come to realize builds and sets you thought were awful sometimes synergize really well with something, at least depending on what your team needs.

Your team is weak on condition damage and no way to apply any burn effects… would you really still not even consider a FT kit just because you see Five Guage using HGH power nades? That’s a very narrow approach to the game IMO.

There’s a reason why these builds show up between patches, and not on patch day. Things develop and people stop being so hard-headed and learn something new.

I do have to agree with Zinwrath on what he said here:

“To further back this, the juggernaut trait rewards you for keeping the FT out instead of quickly using an ability and stowing it away. So, since it is supposed to be more of a weapon alternative, it is perfectly reasonable to compare its balance and design to a weapon.”

With this trait, you are rewarded for staying in the FT kit. If you are rewarded so, shouldn’t you be able to make it a stand-alone kit?

My idea is that the Juggernaut trait should have an increase in Toughness by at least double its normal trait amount.

Also, Fireforged Trigger and Volatile Mixture shouldn’t be spread between two kits. Here’s my idea.

Fireforged Trigger should give a 20% CD reduction to FT skills while also giving a 15% bonus to FT damage (and possible burning conditions).

Volatile Mixture should give a 20% CD reduction to EG skills while also giving a 10% bonus to EG damage (and possible bleed and poison condition damage).

Sporadicus.1028:

I do have to agree with Zinwrath on what he said here:

“To further back this, the juggernaut trait rewards you for keeping the FT out instead of quickly using an ability and stowing it away. So, since it is supposed to be more of a weapon alternative, it is perfectly reasonable to compare its balance and design to a weapon.”

With this trait, you are rewarded for staying in the FT kit. If you are rewarded so, shouldn’t you be able to make it a stand-alone kit?

My idea is that the Juggernaut trait should have an increase in Toughness by at least double its normal trait amount.

Also, Fireforged Trigger and Volatile Mixture shouldn’t be spread between two kits. Here’s my idea.

Fireforged Trigger should give a 20% CD reduction to FT skills while also giving a 15% bonus to FT damage (and possible burning conditions).

Volatile Mixture should give a 20% CD reduction to EG skills while also giving a 10% bonus to EG damage (and possible bleed and poison condition damage).

The OP’s topic has basically turned from “Can FT be viable post-patch” to “does the FT kit do what I think it should do?”.

Very good announcement, Ayden.

If someone doesn’t think the FT is viable, then shouldn’t they also list how they think it should be viable? I don’t think the OP is looking for just a yes/no answer to this topic.

He (and to a higher extent the forum moderators) are the one who makes end judgement. Until then . . . add comments that apply to the topic and not less-than-witty criticism of others.

Sporadicus.1028:

Very good announcement, Ayden.

If someone doesn’t think the FT is viable, then shouldn’t they also list how they think it should be viable? I don’t think the OP is looking for just a yes/no answer to this topic.

He (and to a higher extent the forum moderators) are the one who makes end judgement. Until then . . . add comments that apply to the topic and not less-than-witty criticism of others.

Fair enough. I just usually try to stay within the realm of arguing “why ‘x’ is or isn’t working” when rather than “this should have ‘x’ ability” because you start to get into conjecture then, and topics can often derail.

I accept that rebuttal. Many topics do this, and it’s hard to figure out when it is derailed sometimes.

I feel if we are to make FT viable, then we should also look at every trait that affects it directly as well. This is why I included Fireforged Trigger, Volatile Mixture, and Juggernaut.

OP,

I definately think FT is viable. I am a fan myself

Check out below build:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fintothemists.com%2Fcalc%2F%3Fbuild%3D-XRR%3B2Z-Vv0u5FQFx0%3B9%3B49T-T-4%3B056A%3B119A%3B1a-1%3B3jwmAjwmA2VB

Take Rabid/Rabid jewels, Juggernaut trait, undead runes and geomancy weapon sigil and you will not be disappointed.

FT3 is great for control. FT5 is great for stomp reliability and disabled blinding (saved my kitten more than a few times.)

FT4 is underrated and unexpected. I cannot tell you how many times people ignore the firewall and cross over it 3-5 times in a fight. Add pistol 5 over the firewall for increased effectiveness.

Oh, and Incendiary ammo > Barrage 1 v 1

Good Luck!

Incidentally, I will pipe in my 2 cents again to play devil’s advocate against myself… somewhat.

Juggernaut is not a good take at the moment, because seeing as how FT kit IS a utility kit at the moment (sans future buffs) it needs to be viewed as one, which means it’s primary point is to add burn attacks to your pistol attacks via Incendiary Ammo and Napalm, and of course the un-stun-able blind.

So, to stack might in Juggernaut is counter intuative to a good burn build. I know it doesn’t make sense, but I’m promising you, the minute you just exploit FT kit for the burns and focus on your pistols and dodges, you’ll burn down enemies must quicker. I only use the #1 and #2 skills when the opponent is about to die and I know swapping weapons handicaps me by a second or two, or I know my pistol moves aren’t off CD yet. Any pistol build should be looking to close-range Blowtorch at every chance they get, waiting to make sure the opponent has dodged recently once or twice.

If you do take FT, I’m not sold that using HGH is the best method to apply conditions, especially if you’re including Juggernaut as a main idea behind the build.

After Omnomberry nerf FT becomes not only useless but suicidal at the WvW - coz Retaliation.
After they fixed #2 double blast at max distance...
the final nail in the coffin of the flamethrower scored - all I can say.
Bye FT, bye Engineer for massive fights.

God, even glass cannon Thief more worth for WvW now than fully support Engineer.

Thank you ANET for "buffing" Engineers. You are clearly shows your weakness in the class mechanics.
Yes, your SupaAdventure Box is really good, but this is all you can: creating lol-PVE-events.
In the class balancing you are really suck, sorry. Sad but true.

Next step: removing Engineers from the game, I apologize?

aydenunited.5729:

Incidentally, I will pipe in my 2 cents again to play devil’s advocate against myself… somewhat.

Juggernaut is not a good take at the moment, because seeing as how FT kit IS a utility kit at the moment (sans future buffs) it needs to be viewed as one, which means it’s primary point is to add burn attacks to your pistol attacks via Incendiary Ammo and Napalm, and of course the un-stun-able blind.

So, to stack might in Juggernaut is counter intuative to a good burn build. I know it doesn’t make sense, but I’m promising you, the minute you just exploit FT kit for the burns and focus on your pistols and dodges, you’ll burn down enemies must quicker. I only use the #1 and #2 skills when the opponent is about to die and I know swapping weapons handicaps me by a second or two, or I know my pistol moves aren’t off CD yet. Any pistol build should be looking to close-range Blowtorch at every chance they get, waiting to make sure the opponent has dodged recently once or twice.

If you do take FT, I’m not sold that using HGH is the best method to apply conditions, especially if you’re including Juggernaut as a main idea behind the build.

I find it hilarious that a pistol of-hand skill is better at setting things on fire than the whole flamethrower skills together.

I tend to agree on the juggernaut catch 22: the grandmaster trait is designed to stay in that kit, but the kit itself is designed to swap out of it all the time…

In non-boss fights in pve, and in WvW zergs, I think I can stay in FT for a longer time. In anything else I swap ut as soon as the cooldowns are used again.
So Juggernaut is in my WvW ‘zerg’ build, but when roaming or doing other stuff, I swap that trait for piercing shots usually (which odly enough, is also great in the same situations )

Ayden hit it right on the head when he talked about Juggernaut. To me that trait actually seeks to hinder you (and the sense of what they expected engineers to do with kits) rather than reward you.

Sure, ANet has tried to add things to make you stay longer in FT: Bonus #1 FJ damage on burning foes . . .

Actually, that’s it.

Like Ayden said, I will use Blowtorch to apply burn before I focus on FT’s #1 FJ. Once I do that, I shift to FT and use Air Blast to give them another 2 seconds. Even Incendiary Powder influences people to not stay in FT that much. You get 3 free burn shots without being in FT.

Most of the abilities in FT direct you to only hop into it and then hop back to something else. Juggernaut TRIES to get you to stay, but in my opinion the buffs it rewards you with just aren’t enough to keep you there.

Truthfully, if I use Jug, I pop FT on until I have 6-7 stacks before combat, then pop out and start doing damage in other weapons. I might stay in long enough to pop out a #2 FB.

I stay in EG longer than I stay in FT. I think that one’s a more viable long term kit than FT was made out to be.

draxynnic.3719:

It also synergises well with the elixir gun. The KR nerf is a significant hit in that area, but to be perfectly honest I tended to regard that as more ‘nice to have’ than essential.

I’ve been playing around with a flamethrower elixir gun guild for largescale wvw and pve. The FT does decent damage to zerg balls, and there is a bit of a psychological effect of bathing your enemies in flame.

The two kits in tandem are great for kiting as well FT #3 EG #4, plus either overcharged from rifle or shield #4.

I’m using the combo more in a support role though.

I do think the FT damage for #1 need to be increased. It takes a while to ramp up through the entire damage spectrum, and is close range. I would think that it should get a 15-20% increase to really increase FT’s viability.

EG #1 and #2 need to speed up.
First needs a faster cast, second needs a faster flight.

Would make the EG a lot stronger.

I do think that one big advantage the FT has is that if you are running a high crit build, using perks and sigils that cause conditions/effects on critical hits can be very effective because FT 1 hits so many times.

(Copy/Paste)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspyanuSfF17IBoHAuu3V0jH3YK/pAbB;TsAg1Cqo4xwjgHLPOek8Mq4Iy0CA

Using both Incendiary Powder and Precise Sights with a sigil of earth and fire (kinda iffy on fire, may be a better choice) means you are constantly applying 3 conditions with FT1 and you mostly use the pistols for more burning and maybe a glue shot so you can place a fire wall in it. The nature of FT1 allows you to stack the most powerful damaging condition, burning, in addition to poison and bleeding while having the utility of a 12 second push back and a blind that you can use while stunned/stomping (this is actually pretty cool, you can use the blind right before they try to interrupt you much like a thief).

Where as nades stack poison better than FT, FT stacks the more damaging burn and can maintain it for a long period of time, and with the Runes of the Flame Legion you’ll be doing more damage with Flame Jet because it has increased damage to burning foes and has another 5% from the runes.

I think that this would lead to a bit more use for Juggernaut because it encourages the use of Flame Jet and switching to Pistols for just to pop those skills off rather than only switching to FT for a few skills.

As a side thought, how cool would it be if Slick Shoes had the oil linger for a few seconds and you could set it on fire with flame jet.

I don’t know why people dislike the Flamethrower.
I am running a 10/30/0/20/10 build. I enjoy it so much and it has very decent damage. I’m using Runes of Superior Battle and Paralyzation with Pistol/ Shield, respectively. I don’t use HGH.

Sporadicus.1028:

With this trait, you are rewarded for staying in the FT kit. If you are rewarded so, shouldn’t you be able to make it a stand-alone kit?

If you go the Condition Damage route with the FT in sPvP, wear a Rabid or Carrion trinket with Sigil of Earth and Sigil of Battle. You’ll get a good stack of bleeds easily on top of good burning damage because of all the added Might.

I also make a point to swap out of it quickly for Static Shot + Poison Dart Volley, which synergizes well with Sigil of Battle.

SilverWF.4789:

After Omnomberry nerf FT becomes not only useless but suicidal at the WvW – coz Retaliation.

I never understood the “Uh-oh Retaliation” rebuttal to the Flamethrower. The Grenade Kit and Coated Bullets are just as affected by it, if not more so. As of right now there’s a thread not even half-way down the page complaining about Retaliation when using the Grenade Kit.

Flame Jet can be controlled and the casting channel can be canceled at any time. If you’re traited for Coated Bullets, your shots will go right through the crowd for 900 range. If you hit 3 people with it, whatever. But I’ve had it hit a lot more than that and have Retaliation hurt me just as badly as it does with the Flamethrower. The same with the Grenade Kit—especially Poison Grenade which lingers on the ground as a Combo field. If Retaliation starts chewing me up, I’ll just cancel Flame Jet at any time. It is not a big deal. I back off, heal myself, whatever.

And spare me the “BUT TIER 1 LOL” nonsense because I play on Sanctum of Rall.

Retaliation doesn’t just affect the Flamethrower. It affects all AoE builds—for all classes, and not just the Engineer. That is the risk vs. reward of these types of builds. Play it wrong and you’ll die every bus vs. bus fight; play it right and you’ll get badges like candy.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Sporadicus.1028:

With this trait, you are rewarded for staying in the FT kit. If you are rewarded so, shouldn’t you be able to make it a stand-alone kit?

If you go the Condition Damage route with the FT in sPvP, wear a Rabid or Carrion trinket with Sigil of Earth and Sigil of Battle. You’ll get a good stack of bleeds easily on top of good burning damage because of all the added Might.

I also make a point to swap out of it quickly for Static Shot + Poison Dart Volley, which synergizes well with Sigil of Battle.

I’ve done that before. It’s very effective except that Battle and Earth don’t synergize well. One resets the other’s CD.

I usually grab either Battle and Accuracy or Earth and Accuracy. That extra crit chance helps out. I’m usually high 30s crit chance. This puts me over the edge in the 40s with extra might or bleeding.

Sporadicus.1028:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Sporadicus.1028:

With this trait, you are rewarded for staying in the FT kit. If you are rewarded so, shouldn’t you be able to make it a stand-alone kit?

If you go the Condition Damage route with the FT in sPvP, wear a Rabid or Carrion trinket with Sigil of Earth and Sigil of Battle. You’ll get a good stack of bleeds easily on top of good burning damage because of all the added Might.

I also make a point to swap out of it quickly for Static Shot + Poison Dart Volley, which synergizes well with Sigil of Battle.

I’ve done that before. It’s very effective except that Battle and Earth don’t synergize well. One resets the other’s CD.

I usually grab either Battle and Accuracy or Earth and Accuracy. That extra crit chance helps out. I’m usually high 30s crit chance. This puts me over the edge in the 40s with extra might or bleeding.

Yeah I really liked the idea of comboing on crit sigils with on weapons swap sigils but I don’t think they let you do that…I was trying it with a condition duration increasing build and using the on crit chill and the on weapon swap chill for what would have been around 8 or 9 seconds of chill every 10 seconds. To go with my bleed, burn, vulnerability, poison, and confusion…but alas it wasn’t meant to be.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

After Omnomberry nerf FT becomes not only useless but suicidal at the WvW - coz Retaliation.

I never understood the "Uh-oh Retaliation" rebuttal to the Flamethrower. The Grenade Kit and Coated Bullets are just as affected by it, if not more so. As of right now there’s a thread not even half-way down the page complaining about Retaliation when using the Grenade Kit.

Flame Jet can be controlled and the casting channel can be canceled at any time. If you’re traited for Coated Bullets, your shots will go right through the crowd for 900 range. If you hit 3 people with it, whatever. But I’ve had it hit a lot more than that and have Retaliation hurt me just as badly as it does with the Flamethrower. The same with the Grenade Kit--especially Poison Grenade which lingers on the ground as a Combo field. If Retaliation starts chewing me up, I’ll just cancel Flame Jet at any time. *It is not a big deal.* I back off, heal myself, whatever.

And spare me the "BUT TIER 1 LOL" nonsense because I play on Sanctum of Rall.

Retaliation doesn’t just affect the Flamethrower. It affects all AoE builds--for all classes, and not just the Engineer. That is the risk vs. reward of these types of builds. Play it wrong and you’ll die every bus vs. bus fight; play it right and you’ll get badges like candy.

Man, I dont wanna make my calculations specially for you and specially for you once more time.
FT most weak in front of the face of Retaliation. Nades - lesser.
There is no needs to say where are you are playing at - your WvW experience very poor, this is obvious.
Why I’m not talking about nades? It’s easy - I didn’t care about that kit. Yes, it affected by Retaliation too. That’s why "so many" FT and nades Engineers at the WvW. This is sarcasm. I’m talking about massive fights here, so put down your useless speech about solo gankin.
All classes affected by Retaliation at the same level as Engis? Yes? Thanks for explaining of your game experience - zero experience.
If NOT - why you even post this? Argue for the argue - is it your forum way? very weak way, if honestly.