Guild Wars 2

coglin.1867:

Its hard to get upset with endurance regen changes when they are limiting all of the other professions access to vigor similarly, as well they are limiting the passive endurance regenerations for them as we. For example the Ranger adept minor trait, “natural vigor” is changing from a passive 50% endurance regeneration to a passive 25% endurance regeneration. For the most part it is pretty clear they are making changes of this nature across the board. Which is why I keep laughing at all of the knee jerk reaction post that complain about it as if it is the end of the world. They are so ignorant to the fact of what is occurring, they post as if Anet is singling us out.

As far as I can tell they are not nerfing the vigor on crit traits for mesmers or guardians.

Because i am lazy to spent 1 gold retraining my talents ,i wish there a chance brining back the old Kit Refiment for the utilities , as Major trait :P

Berengar.6951:

coglin.1867:

Its hard to get upset with endurance regen changes when they are limiting all of the other professions access to vigor similarly, as well they are limiting the passive endurance regenerations for them as we. For example the Ranger adept minor trait, “natural vigor” is changing from a passive 50% endurance regeneration to a passive 25% endurance regeneration. For the most part it is pretty clear they are making changes of this nature across the board. Which is why I keep laughing at all of the knee jerk reaction post that complain about it as if it is the end of the world. They are so ignorant to the fact of what is occurring, they post as if Anet is singling us out.

As far as I can tell they are not nerfing the vigor on crit traits for mesmers or guardians.

Yeah, they do need to adjust our trait to be like that of the guardian & mesmer, or scale theirs back. As it is a a minor adept trait for them with a 100% chance on crit, compared to ours that requires a 20 point investment for 50% chance.

Having said that, is a completely false statement some of you are making to suggest we cannot keep vigor up with those 2 traits, some of use have been doing it for a long time. 2 words. Boon, Duration.

coglin.1867:

Berengar.6951:

coglin.1867:

Its hard to get upset with endurance regen changes when they are limiting all of the other professions access to vigor similarly, as well they are limiting the passive endurance regenerations for them as we. For example the Ranger adept minor trait, “natural vigor” is changing from a passive 50% endurance regeneration to a passive 25% endurance regeneration. For the most part it is pretty clear they are making changes of this nature across the board. Which is why I keep laughing at all of the knee jerk reaction post that complain about it as if it is the end of the world. They are so ignorant to the fact of what is occurring, they post as if Anet is singling us out.

As far as I can tell they are not nerfing the vigor on crit traits for mesmers or guardians.

Yeah, they do need to adjust our trait to be like that of the guardian & mesmer, or scale theirs back. As it is a a minor adept trait for them with a 100% chance on crit, compared to ours that requires a 20 point investment for 50% chance.

Having said that, is a completely false statement some of you are making to suggest we cannot keep vigor up with those 2 traits, some of use have been doing it for a long time. 2 words. Boon, Duration.

Well then add Crit, Chance and make it 4 words please.

Infused Precision plus Invigorating Speed does not equal permanent vigor unless you have a very high crit chance and increased boon duration. The chance for a 30% crit chance / 30% boon duration engineer to not trigger swiftness/vigor in 10 attacks is 20% (rounded). And your time frame for these 10 attacks is 1.5 seconds…

And ??

Complain at me all you like. Its clear that Anet has began a pattern of scaling down endurance regeneration. Debating qualifiers with me isn’t going to change that. It is as if you folks who think the sky is falling because of this, actually believe can magically changing it by debating with us who do find it as world ending.

What builds would these changes actually open up?

These proposed changes just appear to push more and more engies to a couple popular builds.

I’m sure the main reason they’re being very careful with Mesmer vigor is that w/o that vigor up time it could come close to breaking the shatter build. The clone generation off dodging is very depended on that minor adept.

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding the tool kit lack of offense, what if we had a second skill on the gear shield of purely offensive nature?
They should just modify the model a bit and add a cannon in the middle. Then we can have it shoot a small/mid range cannonball for a sort of burst damage…in exchange for a prolonged cooldown on the gear shield skill (akin to the guardian’s orb of light, basically).
And the nice thing is that, well, the gun shield really exists – i didn’t invent it on the fly. It didn’t work that well, ok, but we’re engineers…we could make it work better, somehow.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:English_-_Gun_Shield_-_Walters_511414.jpg

Engineer design is honestly one of the most wonky things in the game. It works, but like a hoopty.

Heres ANET’s view on engineers and what their role is supposed to be from December 14 of last year.

“Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.”

Its been nearly a year since they stated this, but we can look at it as a baseline. Engineers aren’t comfortable mid ranges. The only kit that can do well mid-ranges are grenades. Sure we have plenty of ways to dictate ranges with various cripples and immobilizes, but there’s little incentive for us to do that (outside of bunkering in sPvP). All of our high damage skills are melee range: Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Pry Bar, Big Ol’ bomb. Increased bomb range from last patch allows us to kite a bit more easily, but if we want to apply pressure and force our enemy to catch us, well, theres no good way to do that yet. Turrets seem like the perfect solution to this issue, but in their current state, they are just not good enough. Requiring turrets for this role forces the engineer to exchange some utility for damage.

But then we’re left with the issue of PvE balance. The problem with PvE balance is that its determined by the type of content thats out here. Currently all content is relatively easy, and anyone with a bit of experience can run any dungeon in full zerkers. Aegis and reflects tend to be enough to handle any boss. I appreciate the attempt at changing this with the TA Aetherblade path, but thats only 1 dungeon.

coglin.1867:

And ??

Complain at me all you like. Its clear that Anet has began a pattern of scaling down endurance regeneration. Debating qualifiers with me isn’t going to change that. It is as if you folks who think the sky is falling because of this, actually believe can magically changing it by debating with us who do find it as world ending.

I am not complaining, just stating a fact. A lot of people have been writing of “perma vigor” through Infused Precision, while this is only virtually possible for a very specific build.

Another fact is, that Mesmers, Guardians and Elementalists have access to a twice as strong vigor trait for only one fourth or half the investment in trait points. If Anet want to scale down vigor availability they should do it across the board.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

coglin.1867:

And ??

Complain at me all you like. Its clear that Anet has began a pattern of scaling down endurance regeneration. Debating qualifiers with me isn’t going to change that. It is as if you folks who think the sky is falling because of this, actually believe can magically changing it by debating with us who do find it as world ending.

I am not complaining, just stating a fact. A lot of people have been writing of “perma vigor” through Infused Precision, while this is only virtually possible for a very specific build.

Another fact is, that Mesmers, Guardians and Elementalists have access to a twice as strong vigor trait for only one fourth or half the investment in trait points. If Anet want to scale down vigor availability they should do it across the board.

Actually, they have discussed making changes to these professions options for endurance regeneration. They simply haven’t announced an intention yet.

Engineers still have easy access to permavigor too. They have implemented no changes. Your making blind assumptions to claim those professions will have no change to endurance regeneration in over a month from now.

And what your point about needing a very specific build for permavigor under the proposed changes? We need a “very specific” build to do it with the other trait combination now. You post hyperbole with every example.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

I am not complaining, just stating a fact. A lot of people have been writing of “perma vigor” through Infused Precision, while this is only virtually possible for a very specific build.

I don’t understand. How is it any less possible putting 10 points into Firearms compared to 10 points in Tools?

coglin.1867:

Mork vom Ork.2598:

coglin.1867:

And ??

Complain at me all you like. Its clear that Anet has began a pattern of scaling down endurance regeneration. Debating qualifiers with me isn’t going to change that. It is as if you folks who think the sky is falling because of this, actually believe can magically changing it by debating with us who do find it as world ending.

I am not complaining, just stating a fact. A lot of people have been writing of “perma vigor” through Infused Precision, while this is only virtually possible for a very specific build.

Another fact is, that Mesmers, Guardians and Elementalists have access to a twice as strong vigor trait for only one fourth or half the investment in trait points. If Anet want to scale down vigor availability they should do it across the board.

Actually, they have discussed making changes to these professions options for endurance regeneration. They simply haven’t announced an intention yet.

Engineers still have easy access to permavigor too. They have implemented no changes. Your making blind assumptions to claim those professions will have no change to endurance regeneration in over a month from now.

And what your point about needing a very specific build for permavigor under the proposed changes? We need a “very specific” build to do it with the other trait combination now. You post hyperbole with every example.

Two adept traits do not define a specific build. A requirement for at least 60% crit chance and 50% boon duration does.

Also the already announced change for elementalists vigor trait from adept to master tier has been removed again.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mork vom Ork.2598:

I am not complaining, just stating a fact. A lot of people have been writing of “perma vigor” through Infused Precision, while this is only virtually possible for a very specific build.

I don’t understand. How is it any less possible putting 10 points into Firearms compared to 10 points in Tools?

Chance to proc swiftness with Speedy Kits: 100%
Chance to proc swiftness with Infused Precision: half your crit chance

For medium and low crit chance builds, Speedy Kits will still be superior to Infused Precision even after the nerf.

And for elixir builds, turret builds, and gadget builds speedy kits is useless for vigor. And yes, the so called “inspector gadget” control builds are fun and do play wel in WvW and PvP.

Besides, why would you have a “low crit” build? We all know it is illegal to run any gear other then zerker or rabid…………/end sarcasm

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Two adept traits do not define a specific build. A requirement for at least 60% crit chance and 50% boon duration does.

Also the already announced change for elementalists vigor trait from adept to master tier has been removed again.

This is pretty much what I’ve been saying. I don’t know how coglin plans to get unlimited vigor, without investing heavily. Perhaps coglin can give us an example of a build? The only way I can now think of is getting vigor from teammates.

The swiftness is no buff. It’s exactly the same. We have unlimited swifness now, and we we still have it after the patch.

Thats just it, the point is

We don’t like classes having permanent Vigor, and this is one of the areas we needed to tone down the up time of the engineer’s Vigor._

They are working on changing them all. As long as it is a somewhat relative change, as they are projecting, it is not a nerf to engineers. It is a change to every profession, so I have trouble acceptin all the
’woe is me, they destroyed my engineer" crud you guys keep suggesting. This is not a specific profession change, it is a general endurance chance.

Just my opinion on the Engineer,

Like past games, when it takes designers way too long to make improvements, people lose interest in that class, and it gets label “there is another class that does this skill better”. Now, the designers are playing catch-up to save a nearly dead class. The engineer gets out perform in every single group base skill function, engineers were never met to be a top DPS, healing, or tanking class. The designers are finding it hard to navigate the players wants against the class concept-Jack of All Trades. As the Jack of All Trades, engineer are design underperform in those areas that other class excel, but with our ability to adapt to the situation, we can exploit ill thought out changes quickly. Which is why we find in so many updates, the least played class gets the nerf- bat visit so often. The engineer is a very unique class, the designers should focus on the class concept-to adapt. Our weapon/gadget kits alone with turrets should be given bigger ideas, excel in group situations. We are the one class that see science as a equal to magic if not superior.

Example:

Ultra Assault Kit(elite) – 1, Shoulder mounted Mini Cannon – Short range DD 2, Door Ram-good damage to doors 3, Mortar – indirect damage 4, Proximity Mine Field – Lays out a undetectable mine pattern over a area that explode when enemies cross it 5, upgraded supply crate

Elixir Gun, I feel is pretty good as it stand, maybe just improve on some of the utilities.

Flamethrower, I feel should be our best short range DPS kits, increase the range of Flame Blast

Bomb Kit, just need more damage do to it no range, and limit use

Grenade Kit, should be our most diverse range DPS kit, a shoulder mount wide bore barrel launcher that targets a target with a small AoE explosion

Electrify Hammer kit, replacing most the Tool Kit unities, for those engineer that just need to melee

There should be a F5 key that will be a special tool belt slot determine by F1-F4 layout. Once again, lots of possibilities. I.e. Med kit, Elixir gun, elixir B = F5 Massive Tissue Growth-5 sec of high regen, Flamethrower & rocket launcher = F5 burst Flame missile base on how you arrange you belt skill, will unlock the benefits of the F5 key

Turrets just need help, lots of help! Its not a mobile item, they need more health, damage, and performance. I stop using them after level 30 if not sooner.

Some of our past skills were outdated and totally inferior at the start; some of those skills are still inferior. Please delete those utilities or combine them into a kit with improvements.

just some of my thought on how to improve the Jack of All Trades, and revive a very unique class that has come alone.

Berengar.6951:

coglin.1867:

Its hard to get upset with endurance regen changes when they are limiting all of the other professions access to vigor similarly, as well they are limiting the passive endurance regenerations for them as we. For example the Ranger adept minor trait, “natural vigor” is changing from a passive 50% endurance regeneration to a passive 25% endurance regeneration. For the most part it is pretty clear they are making changes of this nature across the board. Which is why I keep laughing at all of the knee jerk reaction post that complain about it as if it is the end of the world. They are so ignorant to the fact of what is occurring, they post as if Anet is singling us out.

As far as I can tell they are not nerfing the vigor on crit traits for mesmers or guardians.

Ele has the vigor on crit also. and ranger already has a ton of evades built into their weapons. A thief is also very good at evading. warriors have a ton of invuln kitten. guards have a lot of blocks+aegis+vigor.

^ you forgot blinds on guard as well… and don’t even get me started on my mes lol

As I said before these changes would be like burning a candle at both ends (lower defense, lower offense). Eng is not deserving of this treatment. What will probably happen with me is that I’ll go back to mostly playing another class (not a threat I’ll try eng after the changes, but I’m just not very hopeful about the future of eng with these changes and I don’t want to be forced to play bomb/nades).

Plyte.8130:

Its been nearly a year since they stated this, but we can look at it as a baseline. Engineers aren’t comfortable mid ranges.

Actually I think the mid-range thing worked out pretty well, somehow. It’s a combination of being able to use any autoattack at any time (i.e. no getting locked in your melee set for 9 seconds while getting kited) and the fact that we’re just as effective at a tiny bit further than melee range.

The result is that we usually have to try to close on ranged builds, but kite melee builds. That’s what I would call a medium range profession. It’s a really, really cool dynamic. Grenades, bombs, rifle, flamethrower, pistol/pistol, pistol/shield, and static discharge all have really interesting interactions with ranged and melee opponents.

BoB.6082:

Ele has the vigor on crit also. and ranger already has a ton of evades built into their weapons. A thief is also very good at evading. warriors have a ton of invuln kitten. guards have a lot of blocks+aegis+vigor.

Yes, I know this, thank you. I already stated all of this, then I quoted the dev stating they were going to change all of those vigor and endurance regeneration traits. They have already made 3 separate announcements about changing eles access to vigor. They stated how they plan to changed Rangers. I havn’t seen what they are planning for guardians yet.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t understand. How is it any less possible putting 10 points into Firearms compared to 10 points in Tools?

coz its a big nerf to the neds/bomb meta build you lose the option to go 20 in alchemy or you lose the option to go 15 in tools if you go 10 in firearms.

i personally think its fine.

Aberrant.6749:

As I said before these changes would be like burning a candle at both ends (lower defense, lower offense). Eng is not deserving of this treatment.

With seeing the population of Engineers compared to other classes, you would think we would be getting big buffs to try to even out the class imbalance in WvW. Yet for some reason Anet has treated the engineer like they are the FOTM class and continue to find ways to tone them down.

Mr. Peters, why is not the class population % taken into account when considering nerfs/buffs to our class?

Two words about Deployable Turrets.

I know Jon didn’t write about it in this topic, but this trait will can be a positive side-effect after the change of Power Shoes and the move of Accelerant-Packed Turrets into the adept traits pool.

The problem is the usage of this trait with the healing turret, you always want the ht next to you when dropped, and I find less reactive to accomplish this when I trait Accelerant-Packed Turrets. When I chose a trait, I always expect from it an improvement not an obstacle.

If it’s not possible making ht untargetable if traited, is it possible to add a key button like [key button] + [key of the skill] to perform self-casting? It’ll surely help not only the engi player, but all the professions with the same trait design and any targetable skill user.

Thanks

mammasaura.5907:

Two words about Deployable Turrets.

I know Jon didn’t write about it in this topic, but this trait will can be a positive side-effect after the change of Power Shoes and the move of Accelerant-Packed Turrets into the adept traits pool.

The problem is the usage of this trait with the healing turret, you always want the ht next to you when dropped, and I find less reactive to accomplish this when I trait Accelerant-Packed Turrets. When I chose a trait, I always expect from it an improvement not an obstacle.

If it’s not possible making ht untargetable if traited, is it possible to add a key button like [key button] + [key of the skill] to perform self-casting? It’ll surely help not only the engi player, but all the professions with the same trait design and any targetable skill user.

Thanks

If you use the ‘press to prep, hold to aim, release to fire’ variation of Fast Casting, clicking it on the skillbar instead of pressing the button of the skill will center its drop right on you.

Anet!
I was very unhappy with the fact that your words with your actions.
You say: “We don’t like classes having permanent Vigor, and this is one of the areas we needed to tone down the up time of the engineer’s Vigor.”
In fact, you nerf engineer:
Tools VI – Speedy Kits. Increased Swiftness duration to 10s. 10s recharge.
While leaving such traits as:
Vigorous Precision Gain vigor when you deliver a critical hit. (Guardian 5 points)
Critical Infusion Gain vigor when delivering a critical hit. (Mesmer 5 points)
To get an engineer something like that i need to spend 20 points on Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed , and I’ll only have 50% chance to get vigor with critical hit.
We need to resolve this problem.

Also about the trait:
Explosives IX – Accelerant packed turrets. Moved to Adept tier.
It is useless, because the radius of the explosion of the turret 120. This is a very small radius.
We need improve turrets radius of the explosion.

Also about the trait:
Hair Trigger Reduces recharge on rifle, pistol, and harpoon gun skills.
Another classes have something other than 20% Reduces recharge
Warrior –
Crack Shot Rifle and harpoon gun shots pierce. Reduced recharge on rifle and harpoon gun skills.
Forceful Greatsword Gain might on a critical hit with a greatsword or spear. Reduces recharge on greatsword and spear skills.
Mesmer –
Blade Training Increased precision while wielding a one-handed sword or a spear. Reduces the recharge on sword and spear skills.
Greatsword Training Increased power while wielding a greatsword. Reduces recharge on greatsword skills.
And so on.
We need improve this trait.

Also about engineer harpoon skill 1
Its have !1! sec. casting time! and slowest velocity of the projectile
Another harpoon classes have !1/4! sec. casting time!
We need improve velocity of the projectile and reduce casting time of this skill.

I’ll probably be taking Shrapnel or Exploit Weakness now with my HGH build, but I will admit they feel lackluster. After thinking about it I’ll probably focus on Shrapnel now, but there was a pretty good reason these weren’t considered above Incendiary Powder.

Shrapnel is too unreliable and that’s why people tend to avoid it. A 15% chance is too wild even if the average damage the trait can output is pretty good. In some manner the chance needs to be brought up and either a cooldown placed on it or the duration of the bleed shortened up. It also only works with Grenades and Bombs, so there is that to limit its influence already. It’s also hard to tell if it’s working since it’s a bleed affect among many. Honestly I wouldn’t mind if it was Torment instead of Shrapnel but that’s probably a whole different area of changes.

Exploit Weakness’ problem was two-fold and one of those is solved. 25% meant they were probably already dead, so raising it to 50% helps. The other problem is it’s only a Cripple. Given Glue Shot, Chill Nades, and maybe Glue Bomb if I’m going a little wonky (again, in my HGH builds) I already have the slow affect on someone when I need it, although I’d admit all of these are difficult to land at long range. If I’m engaging someone down to 50% though, they are probably in mid range where my damage is effective and I’ve already got them under some control. It’s obviously got it’s uses, but for the value of a trait slot a mere Cripple doesn’t seem like enough. I haven’t experimented enough with it though, maybe it’ll shine a bit more now that I have some chance to use it. I’d rather it be a significant effect with a decent cooldown though to start considering it above Shrapnel.

Anymras.5729:

mammasaura.5907:

Two words about Deployable Turrets.

I know Jon didn’t write about it in this topic, but this trait will can be a positive side-effect after the change of Power Shoes and the move of Accelerant-Packed Turrets into the adept traits pool.

The problem is the usage of this trait with the healing turret, you always want the ht next to you when dropped, and I find less reactive to accomplish this when I trait Accelerant-Packed Turrets. When I chose a trait, I always expect from it an improvement not an obstacle.

If it’s not possible making ht untargetable if traited, is it possible to add a key button like [key button] + [key of the skill] to perform self-casting? It’ll surely help not only the engi player, but all the professions with the same trait design and any targetable skill user.

Thanks

If you use the ‘press to prep, hold to aim, release to fire’ variation of Fast Casting, clicking it on the skillbar instead of pressing the button of the skill will center its drop right on you.

Or mouse over any opaque UI element before hitting the skill button. That causes ground targeted skills to center on the character.

Do not however attempt to hold the key down and mouse over, as then you just get a “out of range” error.

“By increasing the swiftness duration on Speedy Kits, we hope to allow Swiftness to be maintained more reasonably without having to constantly be swapping between Kits.”

So many lies, what happens if my swiftness gets stolen after I proc it? Just admit it that you did it JUST to remove perma vigor, not ALSO…

Wishmaster.7693:

“By increasing the swiftness duration on Speedy Kits, we hope to allow Swiftness to be maintained more reasonably without having to constantly be swapping between Kits.”

So many lies, what happens if my swiftness gets stolen after I proc it? Just admit it that you did it JUST to remove perma vigor, not ALSO…

They did it for both reasons and explained that very clearly. As well if you do not like the swiftness duration increase, you need to gripe at the community, because anyone can lead you to hundreds of post of players screaming and demanding an increase to its duration.

If you dislike this change, you should have spoke up in all of those repeated threads demand this change.

This is what makes me lauch here, I see some posters here (very many actually) that I see posted on threads demanding speedy kits duration gets extended because there poor little fingers get tired.

All of this unfounded complaints trying to feign ignorance and anger while crying nerf to Anet are becoming quit the funny joke. The community is getting exactly what they asked for and demanded. If you do not like that, direct it at those who demanded it with fever, not the ones who granted the wish.

coglin.1867:

All of this unfounded complaints trying to feign ignorance and anger while crying nerf to Anet are becoming quit the funny joke. The community is getting exactly what they asked for and demanded. If you do not like that, direct it at those who demanded it with fever, not the ones who granted the wish.

Oh, so that’s why the reverted the changes on Kit Refinement and made the hobosacks optional. Except they didn’t.
And if they just wanted to avoid people switching every 5 seconds they could have just made the trait work akin to how juggernaut works – and they didn’t. Because the clear goal was nerfing vigor uptime. And while there are other methods, they require additional stats to work, thus there is still an additional price to pay compared to before.
Saying they did what the community wanted is just ridiculous.

Hobosacks and kit refinement have nothing to do with the fact that there were thread after thread of posters demanding they extend the speedy kit swiftness duration.

Should i go dig all the threads posted about KR after the change (a change that no one requested, by the way)?
Or this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Hobo-Sacks-A-Terrible-Fashion-Statement/page/7#post3082237
about the hobosacks?
Just the most widely used, but surely not the only one.
Come on, we’re not stupid. They changed it this way just to nerf a specific way of getting vigor (the one that didn’t require to spend point on precision or boon duration). Just let’s not pretend they did it “cause the people asked for it”: even if that was true, there were other ways that wouldn’t have nerfed the combination with the vigor trait.

How in the world are hobo sack and kit refinement threads relevant to this.

One is a graphical design coding issue. One in a balance issue that they feel thier opinion on, out weighs the communities, They other was a change we demanded that they granted those demanding it.

You can dress it up anyway you want to. It is still an iron clad fact that there were a good many multiple threads demanding a longer swiftness duration on “speedy kits”.

The first is a thing that people constantly ask for. The second a change no one asked for (and that many asked to revert after it happened).

You can dress it up anyway you want to, but they did this change just to nerf that specific way of getting full vigor uptime, and not to adjust a QoL issue – since that could have been solved in other ways that wouldn’t have nerfed the combination.

I can be fine with them nerfing a full vigor uptime that had no real cost apart from two traits. But let’s not fool ourselves – they didn’t do this change to do a favour to the community: they just needed a way to nerf it without pulling off a straight nerf that would have enraged all the remaining engineer population.

Please tone down the massive nerf you did to kit refinement! No one runs that trash anymore because of what you did to it.

am i the only one that thinks infused precision is a poopy trait? even with the new vigor changes coming up, infused precision does not equal 100% vigor uptime. say you swap to a kit and get vigor then you crit and get infused precision with 2 seconds left on your vigor. seems pretty shady. also i don’t even go into the firearms tree because i need protection injection and backpack regen to have any chance of surviving this stupid stun meta. plus the firearms tree is generally subpar anyway.

They are basically cutting vigor up time by 50% if you use speedy kits to get vigor. This is both in line with their philosophy of limiting endurance regeneration across the board, and giving everyone who was demanding speedy kits duration extension.

As long as the continue to consistently propose similar changes to the other professions, which they appear to be doing. I do not see a problem with it.

I noticed that Jon made a post in the general topic on Dec. 10 proposed changes.
One thing he mentioned caught my eye.

" We want control builds and condition builds to have more of a place in high end PvE."

This makes me curious about how any changes would offer either one to the engineer as a profession. The only thing they could change in my eyes, to benefit enginer CC is to change access to stability. As far as condition builds, I do not see how any mentioned changes will benefit any of our (or any other professions) condition builds, because the problem stems more from stack limits and conditions that stack in duration and and those with caps.

Wishmaster.7693:

“By increasing the swiftness duration on Speedy Kits, we hope to allow Swiftness to be maintained more reasonably without having to constantly be swapping between Kits.”

So many lies, what happens if my swiftness gets stolen after I proc it? Just admit it that you did it JUST to remove perma vigor, not ALSO…

Using the word “lies” correctly is very important. There is no intentional deception going on here, so “lies” does not apply.

Engineers have been complaining for months that they have to continuously kit-swap just to move around, so they increased the duration to ten seconds.

No one will try to steal your swiftness boon, don’t worry. Why would anyone blow a boon rip/steal skill on swiftness?

Do you people plan to discuss only about nerf/buff to 1-3 traits or rather throw some other trait to the discussion?
Engineer have crap load of traits that are usable but generaly usless and some that are rather weak when compared to cost.

Altho i know that firearms trait line wont be worked on this time around here is some interesting idea for coated bullet trait.
Let the bullet increas damage for every pierced enemy by 10% and add one more bleed whit the same duration as the skill have
1st target will get normal dmg and 1 bleed but every next target pierced will recive +10% more dmg and +1 bleed, since aoe can hit only 5 targets, max dmg will be 140% and 5 bleeds at 5th pierced target.

and before anyone say that its too much or too op, hiting 5 targets in line is rather hard and rare in spvp as for wvw it will only matter in zerg fights wher condition are cleansed ever 1-5 sec and water fields take care of almost any damage, on the other hand it will be great in pve.

coglin.1867:

They are basically cutting vigor up time by 50% if you use speedy kits to get vigor. This is both in line with their philosophy of limiting endurance regeneration across the board, and giving everyone who was demanding speedy kits duration extension.

As long as the continue to consistently propose similar changes to the other professions, which they appear to be doing. I do not see a problem with it.

I noticed that Jon made a post in the general topic on Dec. 10 proposed changes.
One thing he mentioned caught my eye.

" We want control builds and condition builds to have more of a place in high end PvE."

This makes me curious about how any changes would offer either one to the engineer as a profession. The only thing they could change in my eyes, to benefit enginer CC is to change access to stability. As far as condition builds, I do not see how any mentioned changes will benefit any of our (or any other professions) condition builds, because the problem stems more from stack limits and conditions that stack in duration and and those with caps.

That sounds interesting. CC and condi damage are two strong points of the engineer. I always feel bummed when the bosses get that buff, that make them immune for CC, same goes for the stacks.

As for the vigor, I think the reason the most engineers are bummed, is because dodging is our only defense mechanism. The 5 point trait of tools shows this. Engineers are largly dependent on endurance. Nerfing endurance regen all across the board hits engineers the most. I hope they keep this in mind when nerfing vigor. It’s a bit more acceptable now I know they do it all across the board. It’d be even more acceptable if they moved down adrenal implant.

I really like the engineer. I discover new things everytime I play and my opinion about certain skills constantly changes. Lately I’ve started paying more attention to the tool kit and have found it lacking in a few areas. Some of the skills have a way too long cooldown and others are just plain bad.

The toolbelt skill of the goggles seem to have a long cooldown on them. As a comparison, warriors have brutal shot. Brutal shot gives 2 stacks less, but for 4 seconds longer, and only has half the cooldown.

Toss Elixir U has the same problem. The guardian skill only has a 40 second cooldown and the thieves skill has a 30 sec cooldown. while not being random. I don’t know how long our screens stay, but the cooldown of 60 seconds, for a random effect seems too long. On top of that, the main skill should ditch haste entirely. I think it depleted my endurance bar today, which is just stupid for a profession that relies on dodge rolls. Like a thief stealth trapping himself.

Throw wrench seems okay. It does as much as the rifle turret, but does it double if you aim it right. I think the cooldown should be a tad lower, or some additional effect should be added.

Super speed from the slick shoes is nice, but it hasn’t really gotten me out of trouble. Leaps from other classes are just superior and take you further. I’d rather have it on a bit longer duration, or perhaps make us skid forward for like 600 range. As long as it really makes me escape, because now I can just get netted/crippled and still die, while others can leap away.

The mines are just bad, really bad. They have a tiny radius and also show up on the enemies screen and they just spread randomly. It needs to be more reliable, perhaps let us make a little minefield, like how we throw the big mine.

The incendiary ammo of the flamethrower should defnitely have a shorter cooldown. Guardians do it better with their virtue.

The healing mist on the elixir gun is vague. Does it also break stun for teammates? I think now, and for that it’s kind of lackluster. I know it’s a stunbreaker, but it could use a little extra.

Net attack has a kitten cooldown…really? There are stuns of other classes with lower cooldown.

Regenerating mist barely does anything. The water field has such low duration and the regen isn’t worth mentioning.

The other toolbelt skills have a too long cooldown imo, and some need a little extra. Only a few don’t need any real work. I think the devs need to take a closer look and change some things here and there, but don’t touch the grenade and bomb toolbelt skills…unless it’s a buff.

Other than that, they really need to look at turrets. The disposable turrets idea you hear here and there seems like something that might work. If the devs really want us to keep turrets alive, they need more defense and perhaps give boons every x seconds. Kind of like healing turret. For example, flame turret gives anybody in it’s radius incendiary ammo every 20 seconds.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Do you people plan to discuss only about nerf/buff to 1-3 traits or rather throw some other trait to the discussion?
Engineer have crap load of traits that are usable but generaly usless and some that are rather weak when compared to cost.

Altho i know that firearms trait line wont be worked on this time around here is some interesting idea for coated bullet trait.
Let the bullet increas damage for every pierced enemy by 10% and add one more bleed whit the same duration as the skill have
1st target will get normal dmg and 1 bleed but every next target pierced will recive +10% more dmg and +1 bleed, since aoe can hit only 5 targets, max dmg will be 140% and 5 bleeds at 5th pierced target.

and before anyone say that its too much or too op, hiting 5 targets in line is rather hard and rare in spvp as for wvw it will only matter in zerg fights wher condition are cleansed ever 1-5 sec and water fields take care of almost any damage, on the other hand it will be great in pve.

It sounds like an idea, but it won’t help that much. We need multiple enemies lined up into range, which will rarely happen against human opponents unless in wvw zerg. I earlier said to increase fire rate or make it fire bursts, but with less damage.

Another idea, would be to make them shotguns, with pellets. We need to use rifles from medium range anyway and get close for the other skills. Might as well give us more damage when we get closer, like a real shotgun. I think it would fit better to the engineer.

cdimgcc.1638:

As for the vigor, I think the reason the most engineers are bummed, is because dodging is our only defense mechanism.

Can’t say that I agree with this statement in the least.

Protective Shield
Stabilized Armor
Auto defense Bomb Dispenser
Go for the Eyes
Cloaking Device
Low Health Response System
Automated medical response
Hiden Flask
Transmute (Especially the proposed Transmute Change)
Acid Coating
Self Regulating Defense
Protection Injection
Cleansing Formula 409
Automated Response
Adrenaline Pump
Leg Mods
Armor Mods
Adrenal Implant

Every one of those is an inherently defensive trait We have several blinds in skills like Static Shot, Smoke Bomb, and Smoke vent.

We have a Shield skill that reflect and can do an AoE interrupt. We have another Shield skill that blocks and can stun multiple opponents up to 3 times in a single use. We have a 3 s block with gear shield that can be traited to a 16s cool down. That skill alone means we can quit literally block over 18% of the time.

Elixir S offers complete invulnerability.
Elixir C turns any boon into a buff (unfortunately this is our only true inherent condition removal)

Thus I feel it is a little much to suggest we have no defense mechanisms other then vigor. The same vigor that they are congruently changing on the other professions as well. Of coarse they are al making the exact same claim as you are about their professions as your making here. I find it impressive that all professions swear this change is hosing them the most because they all swear dodging is their only defense mechanism.

Personally, as far as defense goes, I feel our most lacking issue is related to the fact that we are limited to elixirs for any effective condition removal.

@coglin

Those aren’t mechanisms, but skills and traits. I mean a real mechanism, clones, stealth, death shroud, virtues.

All other profession have something similar to the above skills on top of their defensive mechanisms. The ones that don’t have a defensive one, have an offensive mechanism, such as eles(a bit) and warriors. I can’t say much about rangers though.

What the heck are you talking about? They do not count because they are “skills” and “traits”???

What do you think clones are? They are weapons skills, traits, and utility skills

What do you think Stealth is??? Its is an effect granted by skills and traits.

Virtues and Death shroud are professional mechanic skills.

I mean, I am all for discussing it, but goodness man, your not even making sense here.

A mechanism is something you see returning in most of the skills and traits of a profession. For example, a thief has a lot of traits and skills granting stealth and initiative.
A necro has a lot of traits and skills granting death shroud life power.
Warrior has a lot of skills and traits granting adrenaline.
Mesmers have a lot of skills and traits granting clones or phantasms.
Elementalists lower trait line is all about attunements, in which they use earth for defense and water for healing.
Rangers is all about pets. Don’t know much about that.

Now tell me what do you see returning much in our traits and skills. Tell me?

If you look at our upper trait lines, there is no pattern, or repeating effect. The only returning mechanism of us is the tool belt. In our lower trait line, tools, we spec for the tool belt. This tool belt grants us endurance regen upon usage, the returning pattern in this trait line is endurance.

Why do you think we regain our tool belt skills at the 15 point trait. One of them is to use those skills to regain our endurance. Why do you think we have enduring damage, which gives us 10% more damage when we have full endurance? Because endurance is a major part of an engineer. Why do you think Adrenal Implant is put so far? Because endurance is a major part of an engineer. This is very similar to the elementalist in which the lower trait line, arcane power, gives a boost to their core mechanism.

And that is what I’m trying to make clear to you, for an engineer, his tool belt and endurance are the biggest mechanisms.

And you’re not for discussing, all I’ve seen you doing is plugging your ears and repeating yourself, snipping out words out of context.

I never said we don’t have any defensive skills and traits at all, I only stated we have no reliable mechanism outside of endurance. We are pretty much reliant on the skills and traits mentioned above, while other classes have a little extra on top of those.

EDIT: To elaborate a bit more, when you look at the traits and skills of other professions, you see they all strengthen their core mechanics. The skills of a mesmer increased the effects of his clones/phantasms, necro increases the effect of his DS and so on. But when we look at the engineer, none of our skills strengthen our tool belt skills. In fact it’s such a joke that when you take lower recharge on elixirs, our tool belt skills aren’t affected.

cdimgcc.1638:

It sounds like an idea, but it won’t help that much. We need multiple enemies lined up into range, which will rarely happen against human opponents unless in wvw zerg. I earlier said to increase fire rate or make it fire bursts, but with less damage.

Another idea, would be to make them shotguns, with pellets. We need to use rifles from medium range anyway and get close for the other skills. Might as well give us more damage when we get closer, like a real shotgun. I think it would fit better to the engineer.

Well coated bullet trait is something that i use and in pve i really love it, in wvw just pierce wont cut in since skills have really low dmg, both con and direct, so atleast this way it would be useful especialy in zerg fights cus it would out do retal dmg(btw i dont run in zergs cus i dont want to kill myself on every autoattack whitout doing any dmg to the enemy zerg) and i was talking more about pistol here than rifle since rifle already have pierce and whit pistol you have also aoe dmg so even more retal(around 30 hits whit 1 aoutattack in to a zerg)

but generaly i was thinking about multiple effects on traits for different weapons/kits,
curently we have 1 effect on trait for 1 weapon/kit, so most traits will only give benefit to either your kit or weapon but not both, and we all know that we have to swich in and out of the kits so we have the benefit of traits only 50% of the times.
So it would be nice if traits were giving bonus to both main weapons and kits at the same time.

btw that coated bullet trait idea was borrowed from game Borderlands 2, skills in that game are, how to say it, more unique in work than just some stat increases, and usualy have more effects than just one per skill.

Regarding our defense, we should consider the baseline. And the baseline is extremely low: at most, a blind every 15s and a 1.5s block every 40s. No evades at all. No second weapon slot with such abilities. And control skills in pve are severely neutered by defiant stacks.

We have some skills that can help, sure. But we must already share those slots with kits (even if some of those have a defensive ability). If those spots must be taken by defensive skills just to make up for a terrible baseline survivability, then they aren’t optional anymore.

Same for traits – we already have to spend a lot of points on kits since they’re for the most part subpar weapons at their baseline (aside from bombs). And yet we must share some of those traits with extremely situational defensive traits to make up for our terrible baseline.

How can you expect people to do something like a full turret build (ok, they’re unfeasible as now because of how bad they are, but bear with it) or a full gadget build if we must already make up for a terrible baseline survivability (and offense, too, cause our main weapons alone can’t do much by design) using those same utility slots?
You don’t, and we’re for the most part shoehorned into kits since they offer what our baseline lacks. Whereas any other class can take their weapons and are free to choose whatever utility they want.
And before someone mention SD builds – they don’t rely on gadgets or rifle turrets per se: they just happen to rely on them because of the lower cooldowns of their toolbelt skills;

And the new transmute is a joke, anyway. 15s cooldown on a single incoming condition converted – not the ones already applied. We still have no control upon it, and its effectiveness is even worse from before. What will reasonabily happen is that we’ll see some spare bleeding converted here and there and nothing else. Whereas before it gave at least a bit of passive defense against conditions.

cdimgcc.1638:

@coglin

Those aren’t mechanisms, but skills and traits. I mean a real mechanism, clones, stealth, death shroud, virtues.

All other profession have something similar to the above skills on top of their defensive mechanisms. The ones that don’t have a defensive one, have an offensive mechanism, such as eles(a bit) and warriors. I can’t say much about rangers though.

While colign might appear a bit blunt I got to agree with him.

First of all, some of the mechanics you mention aren’t that strong defensive-wise as you might perceive them to be. Virtues are supportive but not to an extend that it is meaningful if you do not make any further investments. Clones do not mitigate any damage against players with functional brains and it also does not work in endgame PvE. Stealth for sure is broken. At least on Thieves. But they are getting a heavy hit.

Second, many people fail to realize that Engineers have one of the most flexible class mechanics available. It is not that flashy but it can be either offensive or defensive. You also pointed out yourself that you can gain endurance through tool belt skills which is very defensive. However, this in no way means that an Engineer is more entitled or more in need of endurance. Engineers don’t even have a dodge trait which can heavily influence a playstyle (e.g. Elementalists, Mesmers, Guardians).

Third, it is a bit moot to argue about the defensive capabilities of a mechanic when not taking into account available skills and traits. Every weapon set (including the kits) brings interesting ways to mitigate damage in form of soft ccs (blinds, cripples, immobilize) and hard ccs (knock backs). The high availability of knock backs is something I personally consider pretty unique. The defense is rather offensive and proactive. And of course, there are the traits colign listed which make many other classes pretty jealous.

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding our defense, we should consider the baseline. And the baseline is extremely low: at most, a blind every 15s and a 1.5s block every 40s. No evades at all. No second weapon slot with such abilities. And control skills in pve are severely neutered by defiant stacks.

Seeing this as the baseline is a bit biased considering that kits are meant to be our second weapon kit and that tool belt skills also provide defensive skills. You are right about control skills being less effective in PvE. But seriously… less Vigor won’t destroy you in PvE. It just makes it a bit more demanding. And that is something which is going to happend to every class.

Manuhell.2759:

We have some skills that can help, sure. But we must already share those slots with kits (even if some of those have a defensive ability). If those spots must be taken by defensive skills just to make up for a terrible baseline survivability, then they aren’t optional anymore.

Many kits provide defensive skills in form of tool belt skills. Who doesn’t love the toolbelt skill of the bomb kit or the EG? The skills do not make up for the terrible baseline. They are the baseline.

Manuhell.2759:

How can you expect people to do something like a full turret build (ok, they’re unfeasible as now because of how bad they are, but bear with it) or a full gadget build if we must already make up for a terrible baseline survivability (and offense, too, cause our main weapons alone can’t do much by design) using those same utility slots?

I personally feel that Engineers were designed with weapon kits as second weapon set in mind. That is why there is not a lot of flexibility when wanting to play them without them. I guess many people would disagree or just prefer playing Engineers without kits but that is how I perceive the class. Anything else wouldn’t make a lot of sense and require the Engineer to get more weapon choices and a second weapon set.

The issue with Gadgets not being viable as a core of a build is sad because they are so cool but it is something you see across all classes. The most obvious comparison are Signets which can’t be used as exclusive utilities effectively on most classes. Then, for example, there are the Manipulation and Clone utilities on Mesmers which hardly work when all are picked at once. They are complementary. I do understand the desire to make certain skills viable as a core of a build. But probably they were not designed to work on their own.

I do agree on our weapon skills being a bit too weak damage-wise.

Imho, the problem with the balance of the class is the paradox of kits being at the same time considered a baseline of our balancing, and still something optional (as our class mechanic is the toolbelt).
Either they’re baseline – thus we’ve always got some of them available with no further costs – or they’re optional – and then the whole class isn’t balanced upon their use.
But they can’t be both at the same time.