Guild Wars 2

aydenunited.5729:

I can’t see a tPvP scenario where you would have Warriors, Necros, etc. using their rez skills when an Engie can carry Elixir R as an afterthought and barely affect their build in any negative way, as they still carry with it condition removal and endurance refill.

But what about PvE? When I run as support with my guild, I would PREFER to have Elixir R as my stun break, so I am not tied to the Elixir gun, which inhibits my DPS in fights were we need it.

I will still run it where we need it, but why would they make that elixir so pointless EXCEPT for the tool belt skill?

I mean, have it remove 1 condition max, or make it not a combo field, or SOMETHING that still synergizes with a support build and put the stun break back in.

lunyboy.8672:

aydenunited.5729:

I can’t see a tPvP scenario where you would have Warriors, Necros, etc. using their rez skills when an Engie can carry Elixir R as an afterthought and barely affect their build in any negative way, as they still carry with it condition removal and endurance refill.

But what about PvE? When I run as support with my guild, I would PREFER to have Elixir R as my stun break, so I am not tied to the Elixir gun, which inhibits my DPS in fights were we need it.

I will still run it where we need it, but why would they make that elixir so pointless EXCEPT for the tool belt skill?

I mean, have it remove 1 condition max, or make it not a combo field, or SOMETHING that still synergizes with a support build and put the stun break back in.

I speak only from a PvP perspective.

But that said… given the info you gave there… why not just take a different stunbreak utility?

aydenunited.5729:

You know, I typed out this long response that detailed all the things Elixir R still does alongside the rez function, and all these possible scenarios, but I realize that truthfully, I’ve been around since release, and I’ve seen these responses on the forums time and time again, I’ve seen constant “Engie is useless now” comments and we always come right back towards the top of the meta, usually WITHIN the timeframe of the very patch that supposedly “breaks us”, just because of the people who don’t let a simple nerf dictate their disposition on the profession.

…

You should check my post history before you make assumptions and exaggerations. I’m on your side. I’ve never thought the Engineer was broken, and never considered quitting over any patch. The Engineer is very powerful and I have constantly told people on these forums we’re not broken. I’m only responding to this thread, and this particular skill which I don’t think is good anymore.

You can’t really be citing condition removal as a reason to slot this, can you? 1 condition every 2 minutes? It’s negligible at best. Putting that in the “pro” column but leaving out how the skill ticks in the “con” column? That’s not an honest argument.

I wonder why people don’t ever mention all the counters to the elixir R ress. Any control effect before the engi is downed, launch when he’s downed, or even waiting a couple seconds if you see him tossing the elixir should be enough. Heh, i should test that, but maybe even projectile blockers could work (you would destroy the tossed elixir before it gets on the floor, basically).
The problem is that people don’t bother at all with counters and we get nerfed because of other people’ incompetence.

lunyboy.8672:

Exactly. Why bring an engineer with a chance of a revive, when you could bring a Warrior with an instant up… or 2.

Being someone that has an 80 Warrior, I think Toss Elixir R is a hell of a lot more useful than Battle Standard.

In fights like Lupi, which is really where I only take Toss Elixir R these days, I can use it to revive myself if I get caught in a poison bubble without any Endurance. A Warrior cannot pre-emptively drop his Warbanner like we can ours.

I’ve taken a point to running 25 Tools these days with my FT, and now Toss Elixir R has a 96 second cooldown. Battle Standard has almost triple that. It may not be instantly effective, but there’s something about having an area revive every minute and a half that feels totally broken during long engagements (like the Aether boss).

Adamantium.3682:

aydenunited.5729:

You know, I typed out this long response that detailed all the things Elixir R still does alongside the rez function, and all these possible scenarios, but I realize that truthfully, I’ve been around since release, and I’ve seen these responses on the forums time and time again, I’ve seen constant “Engie is useless now” comments and we always come right back towards the top of the meta, usually WITHIN the timeframe of the very patch that supposedly “breaks us”, just because of the people who don’t let a simple nerf dictate their disposition on the profession.

…

You should check my post history before you make assumptions and exaggerations. I’m on your side. I’ve never thought the Engineer was broken, and never considered quitting over any patch. The Engineer is very powerful and I have constantly told people on these forums we’re not broken. I’m only responding to this thread, and this particular skill which I don’t think is good anymore.

You can’t really be citing condition removal as a reason to slot this, can you? 1 condition every 2 minutes? It’s negligible at best. Putting that in the “pro” column but leaving out how the skill ticks in the “con” column? That’s not an honest argument.

First of all, yes, the condition removal is a notable thing, especially for bunkers who trait to get the Elixir R back again at 25% life and also run Automated Reponse (I would actually say that most people who ran with Elixir R traited for this anyway). There have been far more reputable Engineers than I who have posted builds as such on these boards, and some of them also noted the perk of having condition cleanse before 25% life and then being immune to conditions after that, long enough to turn the tide of the fight.

Secondly, how does this turn into debating the details of the rez effect itself on Elixir R now? I thought the reason it was useless was the lack of stunbreak? So if the rez on it was so bad… people were only running with Elixir R for the stunbreak?

In other words, if you already felt like the rez effect on Elixir R was subpar to begin with, there were far better options to take along for a stunbreak. If you thought the rez effect was the main part of the potion, then you truthfully won’t notice very much wrong with the Elixir rather than the fact that there’s a cast time on your endurance refill, which that part is a little annoying I’ll admit.

I’m not trying to convince anyone that Elixir R’s rez was the best in the game, I’m saying if you already took it for that (most people did) then it’s far from suddenly “useless”.

Why do you think it got nerfed? It’s all due to people whining about the ressing part of the skill – those same people who haven’t ever tried to counter it.
It isn’t like we can choose skills and toolbelts separately, so nerfing one of the two has repercussions on the other as well. I used P/S, bomb kit, tool kit and elixir R before.
Now i had to ditch it due to the lack of a stun breaker. Oh, sure, i can use the elixir gun in its place…and i can’t even put regeneration because i need that toolbelt for the stun break now.
Heh, this patch was terrible for bunker builds, between this, the static shield change (nerf, in my opinion) and other classes’ buffs.

joshisanonymous.5270:

Manuhell.2759:

By the way…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility
Same cooldown, better active effect (it cures conditions too) and also has a passive effect. And it is instant. Assuming the wiki is right, obviously.
We have a toolbelt skill as well, sure. But we shouldn’t pay a price for our class mechanic – thus our utilities themselves shouldn’t be worse than other classes’ ones.

Signet of Agility: Passive precision, refills endurance, cures one condition.
Elixir R: Revives players (oneself included), refills endurance, cures all conditions.

Also note that Elixir R gives you these abilities between 2 different skills, meaning you don’t have to worry about refilling your endurance and then not having a way to cure conditions 5 seconds later. I really don’t see how you can claim that there’s a difference in usefulness between these two skills. Not to mention Engineers aren’t Thieves. These classes play differently and their skills should be treated differently.

Just to point out aswell that precision on the signet is like 13-15% crit chance…or was last i checked.

Conan.8046:

joshisanonymous.5270:

Manuhell.2759:

By the way…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility
Same cooldown, better active effect (it cures conditions too) and also has a passive effect. And it is instant. Assuming the wiki is right, obviously.
We have a toolbelt skill as well, sure. But we shouldn’t pay a price for our class mechanic – thus our utilities themselves shouldn’t be worse than other classes’ ones.

Signet of Agility: Passive precision, refills endurance, cures one condition.
Elixir R: Revives players (oneself included), refills endurance, cures all conditions.

Also note that Elixir R gives you these abilities between 2 different skills, meaning you don’t have to worry about refilling your endurance and then not having a way to cure conditions 5 seconds later. I really don’t see how you can claim that there’s a difference in usefulness between these two skills. Not to mention Engineers aren’t Thieves. These classes play differently and their skills should be treated differently.

Just to point out aswell that precision on the signet is like 13-15% crit chance…or was last i checked.

We may also point out that the signets’ active effects work on every ally on range (so a group endurance refill and a group single condition cleanse).

Toss Elixir R (the toolbelt version of the skill) really was overpowered in my opinion. When they fixed it, so that you got the res off no matter where you were inside of the circle (before you only got the ress in the middle of the circle; if you were more to the edge it healed less), it became to reliable. Before that many people took the toolbelt recharge trait just to get two elixirs off at the same time. After that I don’t know of anyone who still takes the trait, as the res is almost guaranteed with only one elixir anyway.

But I thought the original poster wanted to specifically talk about the none toolbelt ability. He kind of states it that way. One could argue that the cost for abusing toss Elixir R is too much now, that Elixir R is just so bad, you can’t justify slotting it even for the overpowered toolbelt variant. But I guess that would be kind of off topic, if I read the original poster correctly.

So why is the none toolbelt Elixir R not worth it anymore? In my opinion it just doesn’t do anything. The cast time doesn’t make any sense. GW2 is a fast paced game, where you need to react fast. That’s all the dodge mechanic is about. You can’t predict when you need to dodge. You see a skill coming and you dodge it.
Let’s say your build relies heavily on your endurance to survive. Even without the stun break Elixir R seems to be an obvious choice for that kind of build. But with the cast time it is just a wasted utility slot. You probably have Speedy Kits and Invigorating Speed in this build. You would refill your endurance preemptivly, when it probably would have regenerated by the time you need it anyway. You are better off with a Sigil of Energy.

Now you are basically slotting Elixir R only to abuse the toolbelt version. Maybe a stun break while refilling endurance was too much, too. But the added cast time is just too big of a nerf. Instead of making Elixir R useless, they could have just nerfed the toolbelt version.

Or people could have learnt about countering it instead of smashing keys at random and whining about the ress, since there are pretty straightforward counters…

I take back what I said about the Toss Elixir R. Giving the rest of the profession revives a hard look and really comparing pros and cons of each, the Engineer comes out near the top. I think the one thing I overlooked most was cast time. Other professions are in the range of 3-5s for a revive. We’re at a quick 3/4, ranged, and AOE (albeit a small one you likely won’t get more than one person).

Elixir R itself is still bad to me, but if you need people to stay alive I think it’s definitely worth taking if only for the Toss. I’m not sure what else they could do to Elixir R to make it better, removing the cast time might be enough but man that stun break was nice. I’m thinking Stability would be OP (no stun break so you can’t use it while stunned), though we have no other reliable method of obtaining stability (and this one wouldn’t be AOE) so a short 3s or so could be nice. What else do you think could or should be done for Elixir R itself? Is it fine how it is or would you adjust it somehow that I haven’t thought of?

Adamantium.3682:

I take back what I said about the Toss Elixir R. Giving the rest of the profession revives a hard look and really comparing pros and cons of each, the Engineer comes out near the top. I think the one thing I overlooked most was cast time. Other professions are in the range of 3-5s for a revive. We’re at a quick 3/4, ranged, and AOE (albeit a small one you likely won’t get more than one person).

Elixir R itself is still bad to me, but if you need people to stay alive I think it’s definitely worth taking if only for the Toss. I’m not sure what else they could do to Elixir R to make it better, removing the cast time might be enough but man that stun break was nice. I’m thinking Stability would be OP (no stun break so you can’t use it while stunned), though we have no other reliable method of obtaining stability (and this one wouldn’t be AOE) so a short 3s or so could be nice. What else do you think could or should be done for Elixir R itself? Is it fine how it is or would you adjust it somehow that I haven’t thought of?

Just get rid of the cast time on the endurance refill. That was unnecessary.

Adamantium.3682:

I take back what I said about the Toss Elixir R. Giving the rest of the profession revives a hard look and really comparing pros and cons of each, the Engineer comes out near the top. I think the one thing I overlooked most was cast time. Other professions are in the range of 3-5s for a revive. We’re at a quick 3/4, ranged, and AOE (albeit a small one you likely won’t get more than one person).

Even if the cast time itself is fast, the effect isn’t instant – it all depends on how much hp the downed person has got. Also, the other skills either are more versatile (the elementalist’s one) or are also signets (so there must be some heavy cost there). Aside from Illusion of Life, that is fast as well, but there is a drawback there too.
Also, it can be countered by control effects (or launch when the target is downed). Well, even a projectile block can work, technically speaking.
They are simply different, just that.

Adamantium.3682:

Elixir R itself is still bad to me, but if you need people to stay alive I think it’s definitely worth taking if only for the Toss. I’m not sure what else they could do to Elixir R to make it better, removing the cast time might be enough but man that stun break was nice. I’m thinking Stability would be OP (no stun break so you can’t use it while stunned), though we have no other reliable method of obtaining stability (and this one wouldn’t be AOE) so a short 3s or so could be nice. What else do you think could or should be done for Elixir R itself? Is it fine how it is or would you adjust it somehow that I haven’t thought of?

Dunno. If they want to keep the “R” theme, it could give regeneration or retaliation.

Manuhell.2759:

Even if the cast time itself is fast, the effect isn’t instant – it all depends on how much hp the downed person has got. Also, the other skills either are more versatile (the elementalist’s one) or are also signets (so there must be some heavy cost there). Aside from Illusion of Life, that is fast as well, but there is a drawback there too.
Also, it can be countered by control effects (or launch when the target is downed). Well, even a projectile block can work, technically speaking.
They are simply different, just that.

Right, the usefulness of Toss Elixir R depends on the Engineer. If you react very quickly to a teammate going down (having them call it out when you’re equipped with this helps) you have a much better chance of reviving them. If they have been down awhile and are at low health it’s unlikely you get them all the way to full.

Maybe just making it instant again would be enough.

Adamantium.3682:

Manuhell.2759:

Even if the cast time itself is fast, the effect isn’t instant – it all depends on how much hp the downed person has got. Also, the other skills either are more versatile (the elementalist’s one) or are also signets (so there must be some heavy cost there). Aside from Illusion of Life, that is fast as well, but there is a drawback there too.
Also, it can be countered by control effects (or launch when the target is downed). Well, even a projectile block can work, technically speaking.
They are simply different, just that.

Right, the usefulness of Toss Elixir R depends on the Engineer. If you react very quickly to a teammate going down (having them call it out when you’re equipped with this helps) you have a much better chance of reviving them. If they have been down awhile and are at low health it’s unlikely you get them all the way to full.

Maybe just making it instant again would be enough.

I think it would be a good first step to trying to make it useful again… regen sounds like it would be perfect to compensate for the loss of the stunbreak as well… and it would keep in line with the *r*ecovery theme (retal seems like it would be kinda out of place on it imo). With it just being instant… idk… seems like it would need a tiny little bit more love on it.