Guild Wars 2

Kit refinement trait just kinda ruined the actual high lvl PvP build “100Nades” and if its not enough.. it hurt all others build that are not elixir based. Hey ANet … why dont you put a 10 sec cooldown on the ele “Elemental attunement” trait?! Engineer was the most unplayed class and you just simply destroyed it. 100nades build didnt need a nerf since you need alot of precision in your movement to land all your nades else you will miss your burst and do almost no dmg. Alot have tried 100nades build. ALOT have failed to master it. Now we are left with nothing. We are back to the bottom of the list, with no build viable left.
Sincerely, An engineer nerfed to the bone.

I still win a lot with my engineer. Not to mention u can still 100nade by using rifle#2 isntead of magnet, or remaining in toolkit for the 10sec cd, and then magnet.

eXPro.5681:

Kit refinement trait just kinda ruined the actual high lvl PvP build “100Nades” and if its not enough.. it hurt all others build that are not elixir based. Hey ANet … why dont you put a 10 sec cooldown on the ele “Elemental attunement” trait?! Engineer was the most unplayed class and you just simply destroyed it. 100nades build didnt need a nerf since you need alot of precision in your movement to land all your nades else you will miss your burst and do almost no dmg. Alot have tried 100nades build. ALOT have failed to master it. Now we are left with nothing. We are back to the bottom of the list, with no build viable left.
Sincerely, An engineer nerfed to the bone.

agreed

It’s ‘a lot’. Not ‘alot’. Normally I don’t do the grammar thing, but that one is just killer. Second, I’m pretty sure that ArenaNet is very aware of how nerfing KR affects 100nades. I, however, am with you that it pretty much sucks.

its funny to see how many people have nothing else to do as posting KR whinethreads one after another

blutstein.2468:

its funny to see how many people have nothing else to do as posting KR whinethreads one after another

That was a kind of the developers feedback, lol

blutstein.2468:

its funny to see how many people have nothing else to do as posting KR whinethreads one after another

They mad so they protest. It’s the exact same concept of people going on strike for unions and similar things.

Seriously? This is the best patch engi’s have seen. The KR nerf really isn’t that big of a deal. The only build really effected is the gimmicky “100 nades” (not even really less viable, just requires a change a technique and more awareness, more brain power now required).

These changes really shouldn’t effect high level engi viability. It does make one gimmicky build more challenging and force some extra timing awareness on others.

Recursivision.2367:

Seriously? This is the best patch engi’s have seen. The KR nerf really isn’t that big of a deal. The only build really effected is the gimmicky “100 nades” (not even really less viable, just requires a change a technique and more awareness, more brain power now required).

These changes really shouldn’t effect high level engi viability. It does make one gimmicky build more challenging and force some extra timing awareness on others.

It also removes reliable condition removal :o

it didn’t remove that either :p

DDog.4350:

Recursivision.2367:

Seriously? This is the best patch engi’s have seen. The KR nerf really isn’t that big of a deal. The only build really effected is the gimmicky “100 nades” (not even really less viable, just requires a change a technique and more awareness, more brain power now required).

These changes really shouldn’t effect high level engi viability. It does make one gimmicky build more challenging and force some extra timing awareness on others.

It also removes reliable condition removal :o

Not really. For ONE kit setup, it reduces condition removal to around 2 conditions/20 seconds from around 3 conditions/20 seconds. So yes, a nerf to that. But at the same time, if you’re running that build, your Super Elixir is now healing for enough more to offset a portion of that cost, you got an awesome new blast finisher, and your flamethrower got a significant buff.

The engineer is not dead, it’s just having another seizure as the devs take take him off another machine in hopes of reviving him. Honestly, this class has been unfinished for six months, and the devs are probably going to take another six months to finish this class.

They are however going to do it their way. See, the engineer community is a stubborn one which, when faced with a class that was essentially broken, has made the most out of the working traits to the point of them being very powerful for our builds. The devs probably see this as exploitative and are taking some things away (like the omnom flamethrower).

You know what’s odd? Recently I’ve been hoping that Anet nerfs the kitten out of things like static discharge, and 100 nades. This is just so that when they do I hope that they make our rifle and grenades hit harder. I hope that they take away how med-kit procs on heal runes, maybe then those guys who like getting 20 stacks of might will realize that the weapons they’re buffing (pistol & flamethrower) do really terrible damage and need some buffs.

Maybe when we’ve had all of our “10 button mashing at the same time” combos (which take advantage of the ways this class is unfinished and broken) well be able to get some reasonable buffs and be a complete class. This is what I hope is what Anet does.

They might not though. They might just take everything away and give us some more minor Elixir gun, flamethrower and turret buffs that don’t fix our problems.

JohnDied.3476:

The engineer is not dead, it’s just having another seizure as the devs take take him off another machine in hopes of reviving him. Honestly, this class has been unfinished for six months, and the devs are probably going to take another six months to finish this class.

They are however going to do it their way. See, the engineer community is a stubborn one which, when faced with a class that was essentially broken, has made the most out of the working traits to the point of them being very powerful for our builds. The devs probably see this as exploitative and are taking some things away (like the omnom flamethrower).

You know what’s odd? Recently I’ve been hoping that Anet nerfs the kitten out of things like static discharge, and 100 nades. This is just so that when they do I hope that they make our rifle and grenades hit harder. I hope that they take away how med-kit procs on heal runes, maybe then those guys who like getting 20 stacks of might will realize that the weapons they’re buffing (pistol & flamethrower) do really terrible damage and need some buffs.

Maybe when we’ve had all of our “10 button mashing at the same time” combos (which take advantage of the ways this class is unfinished and broken) well be able to get some reasonable buffs and be a complete class. This is what I hope is what Anet does.

They might not though. They might just take everything away and give us some more minor Elixir gun, flamethrower and turret buffs that don’t fix our problems.

I don’t know why people have ever been convinced and that engineer was a dead class. IMO it’s always been one of the best balanced (at times OP) classes in the game.
In my opinion, a lot of people just struggle with the class and have a hard time figuring it out.

Recursivision.2367:

DDog.4350:

Recursivision.2367:

Seriously? This is the best patch engi’s have seen. The KR nerf really isn’t that big of a deal. The only build really effected is the gimmicky “100 nades” (not even really less viable, just requires a change a technique and more awareness, more brain power now required).

These changes really shouldn’t effect high level engi viability. It does make one gimmicky build more challenging and force some extra timing awareness on others.

It also removes reliable condition removal :o

Not really. For ONE kit setup, it reduces condition removal to around 2 conditions/20 seconds from around 3 conditions/20 seconds. So yes, a nerf to that. But at the same time, if you’re running that build, your Super Elixir is now healing for enough more to offset a portion of that cost, you got an awesome new blast finisher, and your flamethrower got a significant buff.

In what type of fights do you stand still in the white circle for 10 to 20 seconds?
No serious type of combat that I know in this game allows you to do that…

As for Kit Refinement only hiting 100nades build.
No.
It hurts every single build using more than 1 kit, since it was the BEST trait for a versatile engineer build.

It’s not just that they nerfed one burst build, it’s that they nerfed engineer versatility.
That’s the part that gets me up in arms against this change.

Multi-kit builds were already the weaker engineer builds, and they just got weaker.
Just like all the good engineer builds are single purpose builds, the real versatile builds were weak enough as it was. No need to nerf them more.

100nades could have been adressed way easier, IF they wanted to do that (which I don’t think they shouldhave).

I’m curious to see what kind of Bunker builds can come out of Elixir Gun, and whether or not a decent damage build for PvP can come out of the Flamethrower and break into the scene. Everyone always underreacts to changes in general saying they weren’t enough, and then never tries anything. Some weeks or months later, we get builds that are suddenly seen as overpowered.

Case in point, Trap Rangers. They all moaned and groaned that even though traps became unblockable they were still useless. Today, it’s an entirely different story. Because people actually experimented and played things in ways that people as a whole hadn’t though of before.

The Kit Refinement nerf was in my opinion the wrong way to accomplish whatever it was that was trying to be accomplished, but it doesn’t make us dead by any means.

Ayestes.1273:

I’m curious to see what kind of Bunker builds can come out of Elixir Gun, and whether or not a decent damage build for PvP can come out of the Flamethrower and break into the scene. Everyone always underreacts to changes in general saying they weren’t enough, and then never tries anything. Some weeks or months later, we get builds that are suddenly seen as overpowered.

Case in point, Trap Rangers. They all moaned and groaned that even though traps became unblockable they were still useless. Today, it’s an entirely different story. Because people actually experimented and played things in ways that people as a whole hadn’t though of before.

The Kit Refinement nerf was in my opinion the wrong way to accomplish whatever it was that was trying to be accomplished, but it doesn’t make us dead by any means.

Not saying anything against this posibility.
But than again: we are not complaining about the changes to EG and FT.
They may indeed lead to better builds with either of them.

But Kit refinement change by itself is a straight nerf. There is no possible better outcome.
The trait is now worse than it was before, with not a single change that might end up ‘for the better’.

This patch was a good one for EG and FT… but it was a bad one for any build using more than 1 kit.
And in that regard it hurts engineer versatility.

As for the title of this topic: of course we’re not dead…

Ayestes.1273:

I’m curious to see what kind of Bunker builds can come out of Elixir Gun, and whether or not a decent damage build for PvP can come out of the Flamethrower and break into the scene. Everyone always underreacts to changes in general saying they weren’t enough, and then never tries anything. Some weeks or months later, we get builds that are suddenly seen as overpowered.

Case in point, Trap Rangers. They all moaned and groaned that even though traps became unblockable they were still useless. Today, it’s an entirely different story. Because people actually experimented and played things in ways that people as a whole hadn’t though of before.

The Kit Refinement nerf was in my opinion the wrong way to accomplish whatever it was that was trying to be accomplished, but it doesn’t make us dead by any means.

Your post mostly about sPvP. Open your eyes – there is not only sPvP in the game and sPvP – it’s minor part, trust me.

Kimbald.2697:

In what type of fights do you stand still in the white circle for 10 to 20 seconds?
No serious type of combat that I know in this game allows you to do that…

As for Kit Refinement only hiting 100nades build.
No.
It hurts every single build using more than 1 kit, since it was the BEST trait for a versatile engineer build.

It’s not just that they nerfed one burst build, it’s that they nerfed engineer versatility.
That’s the part that gets me up in arms against this change.

Multi-kit builds were already the weaker engineer builds, and they just got weaker.
Just like all the good engineer builds are single purpose builds, the real versatile builds were weak enough as it was. No need to nerf them more.

100nades could have been adressed way easier, IF they wanted to do that (which I don’t think they shouldhave).

Are you kidding? This is a point control game. I put the Super elixir down and there’s a kitten good chance I’m going to be in it for the duration unless I want my point contested.

And not all multi kit builds are affected— Elixir Gun/Bomb Kit build is unaffected and imo it’s one of the best combinations. And once again, 100 nades and condition removal are the only builds that incorporate kit refinement to a degree as to be hurt by this change. Sure, maybe a minor inconvenience to others.

Recursivision.2367:

Are you kidding? This is a point control game. I put the Super elixir down and there’s a kitten good chance I’m going to be in it for the duration unless I want my point contested.

And not all multi kit builds are affected— Elixir Gun/Bomb Kit build is unaffected and imo it’s one of the best combinations. And once again, 100 nades and condition removal are the only builds that incorporate kit refinement to a degree as to be hurt by this change. Sure, maybe a minor inconvenience to others.

You’re very right about being more stationary as point defender.
Very often you’ll stay pretty long in the light field of Super Elixir indeed.
I didn’t calculate that one in enough.
Point taken.

But did you just judge the entire engineer gameplay based upon a single role in spvp?

Kit refinement was a very good trait, for a LOT of engineers.
Look further than the one mini-game you play in this game
Spvp is important, but there are engineers outside of that too you know.

The change is more than a minor inconvenience to be honest.
If anything it introduced randomness on top of keeping track of several internal cooldowns already.
It hurts instant kit swapping a lot.

Just speaking for myself:
I use skills across kits and not within kits.
I chain confusion, or blinds, I use one damage cooldown after another from kit to kit. I chain blocks… Simply put: I don’t have time to take that new shared internal cooldown of 10 seconds into account.

Kit refinement just became totally unreliable for me.
Which hurts, since we’re talking about condition removal here that needs to land on the second, and cripples, and burst…

SilverWF.4789:

Your post mostly about sPvP. Open your eyes – there is not only sPvP in the game and sPvP – it’s minor part, trust me.

The post was about sPvP, but I actually primarily do WvW and Dungeon PvE in terms of the past month and a half. I’m not blind to these areas of gameplay. Honestly, the only issues I have with PvE are technically not Engineer related and I have no problems at all with WvW. These are specific to the builds I run though, which leads me to the real problem.

The biggest problem we have period, is build diversity. Which is astonishingly low, but it’s actually low for all professions. Cleaning out the gunk of the Engineer is what needs to be done in terms of the Engineer. There is a lot of crap laced into our traits, utilities, and skills which simply need a numbers boost or a mild rework. It’s important to note though, that this is not just an Engineer problem though. Literally every class forum has the exact same complaint. This stuff isn’t going to be fixed in a single patch. Not even two, three, or four patches likely. It’s going to take years to iron this stuff out, at least if they won’t want to make as few mistakes as possible. I mean I have a dream patch I wrote up for the Engi which is ridiculously huge, but I wouldn’t advocate many of those changes without a dream patch for every class.

We however, are possibly partly to blame for the build diversity issue. Half the time I see people simply dismiss something as not a valid build because it’s been predetermined as crap. It’s mostly a gunk cleaning issue that needs to be fixed by the devs, but it’s very well likely in my opinion there are undiscovered builds out there that have merit.

Kimbald.2697:

This patch was a good one for EG and FT… but it was a bad one for any build using more than 1 kit.
And in that regard it hurts engineer versatility.

As for the title of this topic: of course we’re not dead…

I agree with this. I don’t think it necessarily makes any multi-kit build with Kit Refinement completely blown out of the water though, but I don’t like the way things look I’ll admit. I really think the way Kit Refinement was changed was a poor idea, and would rather see less internal cooldowns then more of them.

Kimbald.2697:

Recursivision.2367:

Are you kidding? This is a point control game. I put the Super elixir down and there’s a kitten good chance I’m going to be in it for the duration unless I want my point contested.

And not all multi kit builds are affected— Elixir Gun/Bomb Kit build is unaffected and imo it’s one of the best combinations. And once again, 100 nades and condition removal are the only builds that incorporate kit refinement to a degree as to be hurt by this change. Sure, maybe a minor inconvenience to others.

You’re very right about being more stationary as point defender.
Very often you’ll stay pretty long in the light field of Super Elixir indeed.
I didn’t calculate that one in enough.
Point taken.

But did you just judge the entire engineer gameplay based upon a single role in spvp?

Kit refinement was a very good trait, for a LOT of engineers.
Look further than the one mini-game you play in this game
Spvp is important, but there are engineers outside of that too you know.

The change is more than a minor inconvenience to be honest.
If anything it introduced randomness on top of keeping track of several internal cooldowns already.
It hurts instant kit swapping a lot.

Just speaking for myself:
I use skills across kits and not within kits.
I chain confusion, or blinds, I use one damage cooldown after another from kit to kit. I chain blocks… Simply put: I don’t have time to take that new shared internal cooldown of 10 seconds into account.

Just countering your blanket statement that it hurts ALL multi-kit builds with another niche generalization.

Explain to me though how KR is synonymous with versatility?

Kimbald.2697:

This patch was a good one for EG and FT… but it was a bad one for any build using more than 1 kit.
And in that regard it hurts engineer versatility.

As for the title of this topic: of course we’re not dead…

There are 2 traits in 2 different trait lines that help both the FT and the EG. If you want to use both kits to their full capability then you have to put 20 points in 2 different trait lines, effectively using 40 of your trait points in one foul swoop.

This cuts down on versatility of builds. If you also want HGH, then all your trait points are already spent without getting kit refinement. It is a lot more damaging than waiting 10 seconds for a CD.

Also, with the new buffs to these kits, I hope you use them for more than their kit refinement swap abilities.

Recursivision.2367:

Explain to me though how KR is synonymous with versatility?

By defenition, Kit refinement gets better and more usefull, the more kits you use…

Since it also does something completely different for each kit, the seperate effects help you strenghten different aspects of your build.

In the same build, kit refinement can help your burst AND you healing and condition removal. Without any other trait or skill slot.
Just by working on the kits you already use.

I am NOT saying it’s a necessary trait for versatility.
I am saying that the trait, by it’s nature, is one of the most versatile we have acces too.
No other trait has the potential of working on so many different aspects of your build at once.

Varqov.6984:

Kimbald.2697:

This patch was a good one for EG and FT… but it was a bad one for any build using more than 1 kit.
And in that regard it hurts engineer versatility.

As for the title of this topic: of course we’re not dead…

There are 2 traits in 2 different trait lines that help both the FT and the EG. If you want to use both kits to their full capability then you have to put 20 points in 2 different trait lines, effectively using 40 of your trait points in one foul swoop.

This cuts down on versatility of builds. If you also want HGH, then all your trait points are already spent without getting kit refinement. It is a lot more damaging than waiting 10 seconds for a CD.

Also, with the new buffs to these kits, I hope you use them for more than their kit refinement swap abilities.

You’re right about the 2 traits in 2 different lines, but they were here before already.
of course this hurts your build options.
The bane of a multi-kit engineer is that he almost never can trait for all his kits as he should.
Especially for grenades this hurts, since they simply are unusable crap untraited… They’re not evne ‘decent’ without the trait.

FT and EG need too many traits, that’s true, and that hurts the versatility a LOT.
I fully agree.
All the more reason why they shouldn’t have touched upon Kit refinement too.

Very sad, since this patch is otherwise GREAT for the kits…

I won’t go as far as saying that the class is “dead”, but this is a major pain in the butt. I don’t use the 100nades thing – didn’t even know about it until I started reading this and other threads. I use Flamethrower, Elixir S, and Elixir Gun (for the most part) and I’ve noticed a big decrease in my healing. I mostly play a support role, healing and removing conditions with Super Elixir and med kits. The problem for me is that I don’t WANT the flamethrower kit switch spell – I’d rather just get rid of it to have a reliable Super Elixir on switch to EG.

If this change is going to stay in place, I’d at least like some kind of interface notification (an icon, for example) showing when the cooldown is off so that I know when to switch. I play a kit build and switch all the time, based on what’s going on around me, so not knowing when Super Elixir is up is a problem. I could count down the 10 seconds after switching to Flamethrower, but should I really have to?

If this is to stop the 100nades this, I hope ANet will see that it hurt more than just that specific build and fix that problem, instead of a global cooldown adjustment.

Kimbald.2697:

Recursivision.2367:

Explain to me though how KR is synonymous with versatility?

By defenition, Kit refinement gets better and more usefull, the more kits you use…

Since it also does something completely different for each kit, the seperate effects help you strenghten different aspects of your build.

In the same build, kit refinement can help your burst AND you healing and condition removal. Without any other trait or skill slot.
Just by working on the kits you already use.

I am NOT saying it’s a necessary trait for versatility.
I am saying that the trait, by it’s nature, is one of the most versatile we have acces too.
No other trait has the potential of working on so many different aspects of your build at once.

And it still does the EXACT same thing. The only difference is that they are outsourcing a portion of that versatility to the kits themselves instead of a single trait. Significant buffs to 3 of the 4 kits affected by the trait change. Now the versatility is in the kits instead of swapping them. This increased the versatility of engineers by making kit refinement less of a necessity.

lawngoblin.1042:

The problem for me is that I don’t WANT the flamethrower kit switch spell – I’d rather just get rid of it to have a reliable Super Elixir on switch to EG.

This is the exact reason I dislike the Kit Refinement change. You shouldn’t ever feel this way about something in the game due to an internal cooldown. I mean they could nerf the Kit Refinement versions of the spells instead, but extra internal cooldowns just feels horrible.

@Recursivision

Explain me how it needed to be nerfed?

A lot of build diversity have been lost with this post.

Before that you could go EG/FT heavy without KR.

You could also go KR with EG/FT for the healing/condition removal.

In this example you just nerfed one option, essentialy making it not viable.

That’s removing build versitality, and that’s again Anet way.

It’s ok if your gamestyle is to stay in a kit longer, with few swapping. But others players aren’t all like you, and we loved the efficience of dynamic swap.

I don’t mind them nerfing KR effect, but to nerf how it used, that’s was the worse thing they could do.

Just make the effect weaker then original version, like on dodge effect.

Recursivision.2367:

And it still does the EXACT same thing. The only difference is that they are outsourcing a portion of that versatility to the kits themselves instead of a single trait. Significant buffs to 3 of the 4 kits affected by the trait change. Now the versatility is in the kits instead of swapping them. This increased the versatility of engineers by making kit refinement less of a necessity.

Kits didn’t get the versatility added. They got some nice improvements, but nothing that Kit refinement provided for them.

Kits got:
- finally a reliable detonation on a badly designed skill.
- a blast finisher (very nice)
- more damage on buring targets (so pure dps change, not utility at all)
- more confusion

Nothing in these changes is related to versatility except the blast finisher, which kit refinement never provided anyhow.

Again: the kit changes are GREAT!
But they don’t ofset the versatility loss of kit refinement no.

Kits still do the same on kit refinement, yes.
But they don’t do it when you want them too.
If you swap kits all the time, you can no longer rely on that super elixir or flame blast.
Not even on the cripple if you just had a EG or FT proc…

The trait got unreliable, which is a very bad change for anyone who relied on it.
No way to argue this isn’t a change for the worst.

Buffing the kits benefits both playstyles…
YOU STILL KITTEN GET ADDITIONAL HEALING AND CONDITION REMOVAL WITH KIT REFINEMENT

It needed a minor nerf because it WASN’T worth it to go without in your two example builds.

ONE trait that offered added 3 condition removals and healing!

Also you forgot about the significant buff to Super Elixir which also indirectly buffs Kit refinement

Recursivision.2367:

Buffing the kits benefits both playstyles…
YOU STILL KITTEN GET ADDITIONAL HEALING AND CONDITION REMOVAL WITH KIT REFINEMENT

It needed a minor nerf because it WASN’T worth it to go without in your two example builds.

ONE trait that offered added 3 condition removals and healing!

You’re losing it. Relax, we’re just having a discussion here. Take a deep breath and either step out or write a bit more calm.
That post is hardly English all of a sudden… not to mention it screams illogical rant all over.
Sorry, but just read it again…

So you’re saying that
- kit refinement wasn’t worth traiting except in 2 builds?
- kit refinement was overpowered?
- the changes to the kits balance out the loss of kit refinement no longer being reliable?

Kit Refinement did not get unreliable. It is a STANDARD 10 SECONDS ACROSS THE BOARD.

What I think the devs wanted was for engineers to actually use the kits instead of swapping to the kit solely to get the free skill via the kit refinement trait. We only have to stay in the kit for 10 seconds. Or, if you hate the kit you put on your bar that much, swap back to your firearm!

Some engineers are basically saying that the kits are rubbish except the kit refinement skill. That to me is what is rubbish.

Varqov.6984:

Kit Refinement did not get unreliable. It is a STANDARD 10 SECONDS ACROSS THE BOARD.

What I think the devs wanted was for engineers to actually use the kits instead of swapping to the kit solely to get the free skill via the kit refinement trait. We only have to stay in the kit for 10 seconds. Or, if you hate the kit you put on your bar that much, swap back to your firearm!

Some engineers are basically saying that the kits are rubbish except the kit refinement skill. That to me is what is rubbish.

not sure about your playstyle of course. But as a multi-kit engineer myself I hardly ever stay in a single kit for 10 seconds. Not in real fights.

kits were designed for instant swapping i would think. Thought that was the whole idea of the 1 sec cooldown swapping…
The change to kit refinement screams: if you want to use multiple kits, only swap them like weapons every 10 seconds!

That’s what puzzles me: the way the change to kit refinement goes against the way kits were designed as alternative for weapon swaps.

So IF you swap faster than every 10 seconds (like i do) than kit refinement is utterly unreliable now. It’s a LOT of micro-management to keep track of what you’ll get next. Not to mention it changes depending on the order you swap kits in.
Same kits used, but swapped in a different order gives you different results.
In one direction you get several procs, in the other order you get only one kit to proc…

Kimbald.2697:

Recursivision.2367:

Buffing the kits benefits both playstyles…
YOU STILL KITTEN GET ADDITIONAL HEALING AND CONDITION REMOVAL WITH KIT REFINEMENT

It needed a minor nerf because it WASN’T worth it to go without in your two example builds.

ONE trait that offered added 3 condition removals and healing!

So you’re saying that
- kit refinement wasn’t worth traiting except in 2 builds?
- kit refinement was overpowered?
- the changes to the kits balance out the loss of kit refinement no longer being reliable?

1. No, I’m saying that a lot of builds almost necessitated taking it because of how good it was. For example, in your FT/EG example- No other single trait comes close in value to 3 on demand condition removals + healing.

2. Not necessarily. But making it less effective does de-incentivize its use in order to facilitate more build diversity

3. Well, Yes. Buffs to the kits affected and it’s not like it’s useless now. you’re still getting significant condition removal with that build. You’re still getting nade damage etc.

@Varqov

A Multikit user don’t stay in a kit for 10 second.

Hell I use two kits in most of my build, and I stay max 5 second in each kit.

You don’t auto attack with kit. It’s a waste.

Kit aren’t rubbish, but just like Elem have to Attunement dance, we have to kit dance to be effective.

@Recursivion

So If I understand, a multi kit user with 4 kit, that was advantaged if he used kit refinement, was a bad thing?

You mean just like Grenadier is a must for grenade, Bomb radius for bomb kit ect

Yeah this skill was really good for multi kit user, but thats THE point of the skill. It’s to make multikit user stronger.

Just like juggernaute will make your FT stronger.

A traits is interresting when it has some synergy with some builds, and that was the case.

Kardiamond.6952:

You don’t auto attack with kit. It’s a waste.

Kit aren’t rubbish, but just like Elem have to Attunement dance, we have to kit dance to be effective.

I hope the resonates with more people, especially in PvE.

Let’s look at it this way.

Pre-nerf KR:

Potential for-
aoe damage and condition removal ~ every 10 seconds

on top of

aoe healing and condition removal ~ every 20 seconds

on top of

significant burst or cripple/bleeding on a low cd

What other single trait in the game offers that much for a first tier trait?
It was and still is almost a no-brainer.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Varqov

@Recursivion

A traits is interresting when it has some synergy with some builds, and that was the case.

And it still does.

Ayestes.1273:

Kardiamond.6952:

You don’t auto attack with kit. It’s a waste.

Kit aren’t rubbish, but just like Elem have to Attunement dance, we have to kit dance to be effective.

I hope the resonates with more people, especially in PvE.

That’s a generalization that’s no completely true. Flamethrower and elixir gun auto-attacks definitely have their uses. In PVP at least. They are situational and add to the engineer’s versatility. to ignore them would be silly.

If you’re fighting a single target Elixir Gun will give you a defensive edge compared to the pistol due to the added weakness and keep up comparable and often superior bleed stacks.

Flamethrower auto definitely has an advantage stacking conditions on lumped together enemies.

Recursivision.2367:

Let’s look at it this way.

Pre-nerf KR:

Potential for-
aoe damage and condition removal ~ every 10 seconds

on top of

aoe healing and condition removal ~ every 20 seconds

on top of

significant burst or cripple/bleeding on a low cd

What other single trait in the game offers that much for a first tier trait?
It was and still is almost a no-brainer.

I have 2 things to remark here, without saying you’re not correct that it was an extremely good trait.

1. not a single multi-kit build that was really versatile, was also really strong.

If 100 nades was a problem, than they should have adressed the spread of the grenades, not this trait. If the grenades don’t all overlap in a central spot, that 100nades build lost most of it’s burst…

EG-FT builds weren’t too strong, neither was any 3 or 4 kit build.

On the contrary: builds like this relied on such traits to be remotely decent, compared to the more single purpose builds.

2. Kit refinement might have been too strong in some cases..

If, for the sake of argument, Kit refinement is too strong, than they went about it the wrong way.

Instead of making it a mess of internal cooldowns efecting other internal cooldowns, changing upon the order in which you swap to the kits… they simply could have adressed the specific procs that were considered ‘too strong to be assembled in one build’.

For example: make the procced Super Elixir NOT remove conditions. So FT still gets their cond removal, but EG doesn’t get 2…
Spread the grenade barrage so much that it can’t overlap even if standing IN the character model.

And to be honest: can’t even come up with more examples since those are the only 2 where the trait could be considered too strong.

Maybe ths one: don’t give the med kit a spammable bomb.
It’s a HEALING skill, find something fitting… like… a heal?

Varqov.6984:

Kit Refinement did not get unreliable. It is a STANDARD 10 SECONDS ACROSS THE BOARD.

That’s what the patch notes said but it’s not what they actually coded. Grenade Kit and Elixir Gun have their own separate 20s cooldowns on top of the 10s cooldown on any Kit Refinement effect.

damny.9342:

Varqov.6984:

Kit Refinement did not get unreliable. It is a STANDARD 10 SECONDS ACROSS THE BOARD.

That’s what the patch notes said but it’s not what they actually coded. Grenade Kit and Elixir Gun have their own separate 20s cooldowns on top of the 10s cooldown on any Kit Refinement effect.

So, in reality, is it 20s (for EG and GK)+ 10s(for KR) = 30 seconds to get another free skill from the trait?

Varqov.6984:

damny.9342:

Varqov.6984:

Kit Refinement did not get unreliable. It is a STANDARD 10 SECONDS ACROSS THE BOARD.

That’s what the patch notes said but it’s not what they actually coded. Grenade Kit and Elixir Gun have their own separate 20s cooldowns on top of the 10s cooldown on any Kit Refinement effect.

So, in reality, is it 20s (for EG and GK)+ 10s(for KR) = 30 seconds to get another free skill from the trait?

No, I believe that the two with 20 sec CD’s stayed so, but the other kits effects won’t proc during the 10 second global CD

thanks Recursivision, that eases my mind a bit. Now I just have to remember to count to 10. If I get bored before 10, I can just switch over to my pistol and shoot someone.

Recursivision.2367:

Let’s look at it this way.

Pre-nerf KR:

Potential for-
aoe damage and condition removal ~ every 10 seconds

on top of

aoe healing and condition removal ~ every 20 seconds

on top of

significant burst or cripple/bleeding on a low cd

What other single trait in the game offers that much for a first tier trait?
It was and still is almost a no-brainer.

Incendiary Powder -> 2 second burn on critical hti from any attack.
Hell with condition duration and precision, you can have perma burn on a single target. That’s like 500 more dps not affected by armor.

Invigorating Speed -> Vigor on swiftness.
With speedy kit, it’s perma swiftness. In sPvP this one of the best buff you can have.

Static Discharge -> bolt on toolbelt
Add 800-2000 damage on each toolbelt use.

Speedy kit -> perma swiftness
I would take speedy kit over kit refinement anytime.

Others class?

Ranger
Zephyr’s Speed You and your pet gain 2 seconds of quickness when you swap pets.
5 points, on demand quickness. The strongest effect in game.

I’m too lazy to find more.

But I could have cared less if they put it at 20 points, or even 30 points.

Anyway at 10 points I always take speedy kit over kit refinement.

Funy how our top build right now doesn’t even use KR, while you say it’s the best trait in the game.

Varqov.6984:

thanks Recursivision, that eases my mind a bit. Now I just have to remember to count to 10. If I get bored before 10, I can just switch over to my pistol and shoot someone.

Eh, not sure if you’re doin’ it right…

Jump while kit swapping. OMG. I really can’t stand how many people are constantly saying that this build is dead. It’s so far from dead, it’s insane. Tool Kit got buffed. If you jump while kit swapping (with kit refinement) it doesn’t waste or use the spell. USE IT.

Jesus people. Come on.

@TGA

I switched build since patch, but right now you don’t even need to jump swap.

The patch is bugged, and they are gonna debug it soon enought.

I heard the jump/swap solution didn’t work with FT and EG, it would still proc the 10 sec timer.

Kardiamond.6952:

Recursivision.2367:

Let’s look at it this way.

Pre-nerf KR:

Potential for-
aoe damage and condition removal ~ every 10 seconds

on top of

aoe healing and condition removal ~ every 20 seconds

on top of

significant burst or cripple/bleeding on a low cd

What other single trait in the game offers that much for a first tier trait?
It was and still is almost a no-brainer.

Incendiary Powder -> 2 second burn on critical hti from any attack.
Hell with condition duration and precision, you can have perma burn on a single target. That’s like 500 more dps not affected by armor.

Invigorating Speed -> Vigor on swiftness.
With speedy kit, it’s perma swiftness. In sPvP this one of the best buff you can have.

Static Discharge -> bolt on toolbelt
Add 800-2000 damage on each toolbelt use.

Speedy kit -> perma swiftness
I would take speedy kit over kit refinement anytime.

Others class?

Ranger
Zephyr’s Speed You and your pet gain 2 seconds of quickness when you swap pets.
5 points, on demand quickness. The strongest effect in game.

I’m too lazy to find more.

But I could have cared less if they put it at 20 points, or even 30 points.

Anyway at 10 points I always take speedy kit over kit refinement.

Funy how our top build right now doesn’t even use KR, while you say it’s the best trait in the game.

I’m not saying it’s the best trait in the game. In the end, what I’m saying is it was a powerful trait, it still is. Only builds that relied on it actively are affected by this change. It has not hurt the viability of the engineer on the whole. And the builds that did rely on it are still viable although will require some adjusting.

I just can’t understand the idea that this any sort of slight to engineers or a nail in the coffin of any sort. As a class that was balanced and well off pre-patch I think that it’s fair that with a buff to most of the kits affected by kit refinement ( making them more usable in their own right) the we receive some balancing in the other direction with the trait that affects all those kits.

Engineer’s in a good place.

@Recursivision

Sadly in sPvP, a little change like that can kill the viability.

I’m sure we can agree that the balance in PvE is a lot less fragile then competitive PvP. In PvE I can run a turret build and be effective. I ran a Minion necromancer for a month and was still very much viable in FOTM 20. Yet it was one of the worse build for necro.

In sPvP, you can remove a little thing, and the build isn’t viable anymore.

Engineer aren’t dead. Far from it. They have a good place with HGH build.

But It get boring to always play the same build. Kit refinement trait was one of the funniest trait around. It also created a lot of combo/build options.

Now with the global timer, the synergy is gone. Some build are no longer viable (they were hardly viable before) in PvP.

I’M not arguing about the Engineer viability, only about KR change being minor. FT and EG buff don’t make up for it.