Guild Wars 2

Hey people
My first response to the PoI showing of the “Scrapper” was pure disappointment, and I already was kinda de-hyped from the blogpost on thursday …

but lets start from the beginning ..

The Hammer
The hammer really was by far the only viable thing I saw yesterday ..

Hammer 1
The autottack of the hammer is besides of its pretty low base damage actually very good, though not particularly originel since they simply used the principle of the Reaper, so we get might 2/3 of our autoatack hitchain, for an okay 8s and inflict 12s of vul to oppenents with 2/3 hits from our autoatack chain, also very useful.

Electro-Whirl
Here we see a borrowed mechanic, this time its from the DH, a reflect with a very short time window.
In addition, this one seems to do pretty good damage in close combat too.
perfectly fine so far.

Rocket Charge
The third skill we finally get something new and sparkling, a leap with not only 1000 range, but also this leap is divided into 3 smaller jumps each of which is a jump finisher (jump finishers are no explosive finishers but still better than Whirl). Note however, if you are already in melee range, this skill really really hurts too.

Shock Shield
Another new mechanic, here we have a nearly 2 seconds block, unlike many other blocks this doesnt just block one attack, no here we have a permanent 1 3/4 seconds and at the same time fireing 4 eltric bolts to nearby enemys.

and finally
Thunderclap
Some scream OP, others say meh … the Scrapper creates an AoE lightningfield that comes with its own minor trait that is not justified at all and immediately stuns enemys for 1s (+1/4s from the trait), the stun in my opinion doesnt need that minor since this provides a QUARTER of a second whch adds little extra time to Scrap opponents .. but again very good damage If the enemys stands inside the aoe and the obvious synergy with finishers from the kit of the scrapper, even if the cooldown of (not shortenable) 24 seconds is a little long.

That concludes the hammer and unfortunately the only useful thing this elite spec brings to the table ..

But WAIT! I hear you cry .. the Functiongyro, the functiongyro is so OP! Op!Op!Op!
Well .. we have not seen it in action, but yes the functiongyro seems to be quite strong, even more so with the trait ..
especially since we as engi have no access to skills that will help us finish an enemy .. something like an elixir that makes us invulnarable, or a combo which stealthes us …… and the silliest part of gyros I’m haven’t even come to yet .. of course you can then also kill the gyro in 2 hits
So this is not a selling point .. and especially since Engi does not need a buff in PvP ..

and I do not want the other Engis a getting a cheap kill off of me with this funny and yet poorly designed skill

What Engi needs are a couple of viable builds in PvE .. and no one in lfg will be like: “ohh yes please an engi so he can resurrect me from very far away.”

Conclusion for Funktionsgyro: Meh.

Now then.. utillity Gyros

I will not go into detail about the individual gyros here at all, because all of them are so (s)crappy it’s not funny anymore .. and thats not even because of their capabilities but to the way HOW and with what THOUGHTS they are integrated into the game.

it is the stuuuuuupidest thing to provide the gyros with “free will” (AI) and then also Hp and then also totally unnecessary skills and then also unnecessary summonings and then also totally unnecessary copypaste turret explosion as active.
AND THEN THESE THINGS CANT EVEN SHOOT !! Why am I an engineer in war if I do not even equip my inventions withmachine guns and rocket launchers ?!
Instead, I am so ashamed of my invention, that I install a self-destruct button so no one will see these flying abominations..
[/insert “Sadgyro.jpg”] _
And dont even get me started on their halfhour cooldowns and limitied lifespan

Conclusion on the Gyros: The Engi has a huge repertoire of versatile skills. And if I develop a new Utillity for a class that already has such an incredibly strong kitten nal, then that has to be something really interesting, useful or just super fun to use.
what is offered in his ELITESPECIALIZATION here is so little useful stuff it makes you wonder if some of the devs even know what this game is about.

The Elite Gyro has exactly the same stupid AI problem and what I think of perma stealth in both PvP and PvE .. not every class have to be invisible ..

The Combofield
Anet loves combofields, literally forcing us here (or not because no one will play with these drones), but honestly .. everything that is not a firefield has no place in PvE .. and what do we not get? correct! a firefield.. we get a water, a poison, a litghning and a superspeed field .. because in PvE fight we run so much and heal so much.. and bosses also always heal themself ..
I admit a clutch heal is potentialy sometimes very good, but engi has the best heal in the game in his Healingturret already (and also a water-field) and to run faster through fractals is nice but out of combat normal swiftness is enough and everyone can boff that theirself
The reflectschield is ok, the gyro unfortunately is completely useless so far.

Final Conclusion: Through this Spec I get a hammer .. .. .. yaaaay..

Edit: oh, and to these people that think of a perma might stacking stabillity Flame Thrower build: No!
as long as it is not buffed, the autoattack on Flamethrowing not suitable for DPS ..

Now to my suggestions, my ideas and to which I actually thought Anet would do it this way.

I’m okay with letting the combofields be combofields .. but give us useful gyros, give us the feeling that it is cooler than 3 weaponkits so that we really want to try them.

Basic changes of gyro-mechanics that are absolutly needed
-Gyros are no units and can not be taargeted.
-Gyros have no AI, they float always in the same place behind, in front or around the Engi (a bit like the healing knife from revenant assassins heal)
-Gyros have no HP. (with the exception of functiongyro)
-Gyros still have a limited time (“fuel”)
-Gyros can not be exploded manually and instead have skills
-Gyros are equipped with various small weapons
-Gyros still explode after the time runs out

I’ll present you, MY versions of the Gyros:

Medic Gyro
Deploy a medic gyro equipped with a small laser to heal nearby allies and attack an enemy with a freeze ray

Medic gyro
CD: 20s
Duration: 15s
Selfheal: 2,000
Gyroheal: 1000
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Laser Damage: 50
Interval: 2s

“Active”
Freeze ray
Shoots a freeze ray at an enemy inflicting chill
CD: 6s
Damage: 100
Chill: 1 1/2s

Purge gyro
Deploy a purge gyro equipped with a small stun gun that removes conditions from nearby allies and can weaken an enemy.

Purge gyro
CD: 20s
Duration: 15s
Conditions removed: 2
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Gun Damage: 50
Interval: 2s

“Active”
Weakening shot
Shoot a dart at an enemy weakening him
CD: 6s
Damage: 100
Weakness: 2s

Gyro Bullwark
Deploy a bulwark gyro equipped with a small canon to apply Protection to nearby allies and daze enemies around it and grant allies aegis.

Gyro Bullwark
CD: 20s
Duration: 15s
Protection: 3s
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Cannon Damage: 80
Interval: 2s

“Active”
Stomp!
The bullwark gyro stomps on the ground to daze nearby enemies and apply Aegis to allies
CD: 6s
Damage: 100
Dazed: 1s
Radius: 600
Aegis: 5s

Blast gyro
Deploy a blast gyro equipped with a small grenade launcher, granting you and your allies Retribution every few seconds and can charge in an enemy with a bomb.

Blast gyro
CD: 15s
Duration: 15s
Retribution: 3s
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Damage grenades: 100
Interval: 2s

“Active”
Kamikaze!
seek out an opponent and then explodes and pushes back the enemy
Damage: 1,800
Kombo Finisher: Blast
knockback distance: 450

Shredder Gyro
Deploy a shredder gyro equipped with small axes, to whirl around you striking foes and using combo fields and is capable of unleashing a deadly hail of bullets.

Shredder gyro
CD: 15s
Duration: 15s
Damage: 50
Interval: 1s
Radius: 240
Kombo interval: 1/2s
Kombo Finisher: Whirl

“Active”
Shrapnel
Shoots small metal splinters in all directions
Damage: (10x) 1,000
Duration: 5s

Sneak Gyro Elite
Deploy a sneak gyro equipped with a small silenced pistol to provide stealth to nearby allies and has an unstable self-cloakingfield. Shoot only when engi is visible.

Sneak gyro
CD: 30s
Duration: 10s
Invis: 3s
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Guns Damage: 40
Interval: 1s

“Active”
Cloak
The Sneak Gyro stealthes himself briefly but then explodes
CD: 10s
Duration: 3s

So this is roughly how I’d imagine gyros to be. useful little helpers that fire their weapons a little to help DPS and simply for the feelz and also have abilities that are more often usable than in super special situations.
for the elite I do not really thought of something that I completely like but I find it flawed and out of place anyway.

What do you think of my feedback? are you agree with me? How do you like my ideas for improvement?

Let me know all that

Thank you for reading through all of that, and I am sorry if there are some gramma errors, but english is not my native language.
thats all for now and I still hope you all have some fun with the Scrapper.

Rocket Charge + Elixir Shell will be super strong. Three leap finishers in a water field is like 4K HP returned. That alongside the reflect from Electrowhirl and the block from Shock Shield will make the hammer very, very good for sustain/bruiser builds. I think the hammer will work very well with the Bomb Kit and Flamethrower, personally, though it’ll take some hands-on time to really figure that all out.

Gyros seem kinda meh to me, and I think they’re really only going to be used situationally in raids.

I think that thematically speaking gyros are fine, please notice the word “thematically”, now after a glance I think that they going to need some work, I really easy way to improve the gyros viability is making it invulnerable to damage and use some sort of fuel system, some cooldowns are a little high overall . Also, it effect need to be more significant (beside sneak gyro).

Death Scythe.9738:

I think that thematically speaking gyros are fine, please notice the word “thematically”, now after a glance I think that they going to need some work, I really easy way to improve the gyros viability is making it invulnerable to damage and use some sort of fuel system, some cooldowns are a little high overall . Also, it effect need to be more significant (beside sneak gyro).

they are " thematically" awesome.. but its like Hugh Norfolk had the Idea for them (because he is by far the best concept designer on Anet) and then gave that idea to an apprentice designer who has no clue of the game, who then ruined them with these terrible restrictions that makes them worse then turrets….

Scraper looks awesome but those cool drone will be useless on aoe fight, and gw2 is only about AOE….

Death Scythe.9738:

I think that thematically speaking gyros are fine, please notice the word “thematically”, now after a glance I think that they going to need some work, I really easy way to improve the gyros viability is making it invulnerable to damage(…) (beside sneak gyro).

That hardly changes, SW never got fixed….will happen de same to gyros.

Gyros should have fuel, fuel should dictate duration and damage on explosion. You can self destruct your Gyros, but there should be a trait that makes them explode when attacked with some conditionals. (On death by burn/crit?) It would conjure nice tactics, you could detonate a gyro right away, sacrificing its effects to do more damage with more fuel. Your enemy could burst down a Gyro right away to negate the effects, but cause an explosion, we could get interesting traits playing with the the fuel mechanic.

Any one have the amount that rocket charge can possibly hit you for with a full power build? I believe in the stream he was using rabid and if I remember correctly the tooltip showed around 1500 base for a 3 part leap with around 1k crits. If he was critting 1k I have a feeling this ability scales extremely well with power same with electrowhirl saw that was critting around 2k aoe not including the reflects. With a power build I am pretty sure electrowhirl could be critting in the 5-6ks pretty much on par with guardian mighty blow with a tad bit more cd reflect and whirl instead of blast finisher. With a few auto attacks and might we can use these 2 abilities too do some heavy burst within a rotation.

Edit:He was also hitting for this much on a Heavy golem so medium and light armor targets could possibly be bursted extremely hard with these.

Cristobal.8640:

Gyros should have fuel, fuel should dictate duration and damage on explosion. You can self destruct your Gyros, but there should be a trait that makes them explode when attacked with some conditionals. (On death by burn/crit?) It would conjure nice tactics, you could detonate a gyro right away, sacrificing its effects to do more damage with more fuel. Your enemy could burst down a Gyro right away to negate the effects, but cause an explosion, we could get interesting traits playing with the the fuel mechanic.

This sounds awesome. I have no idea why they even used the word fuel in both the MMORPG.com article and the official GW2 article. It’s nothing more than a duration. I was really hoping for some sort of resource management with fuel, like a Revenant’s energy bar.

Granted this doesn’t work if you’re not using Gyros, but it really feels like there was something more planned for this fuel mechanic but it just never came to fruition.

Hammer damage is on par with guardianns gs, theirlast hit hits harder but we get twice as much might and 2 vul.

Pluss the rest of our skill on the hammer are miles ahead from most if not all melee weapons out there.

Apolo.5942:

Hammer damage is on par with guardianns gs, theirlast hit hits harder but we get twice as much might and 2 vul.

Pluss the rest of our skill on the hammer are miles ahead from most if not all melee weapons out there.

As it should be our weapon skills should feel powerful considering we can’t swap weapons and the whole “but you have kits” thing doesn’t cut it. Kits are not our mechanic and it never should be they are extra skills we have an option too take they should never be mandatory.

Frightlight.3796:

Apolo.5942:

Hammer damage is on par with guardianns gs, theirlast hit hits harder but we get twice as much might and 2 vul.

Pluss the rest of our skill on the hammer are miles ahead from most if not all melee weapons out there.

As it should be our weapon skills should feel powerful considering we can’t swap weapons and the whole “but you have kits” thing doesn’t cut it. Kits are not our mechanic and it never should be they are extra skills we have an option too take they should never be mandatory.

I mean, you are free to feel this way, but the game is balanced around having access to multiple weapon sets. And that not being available, engineers are balanced around having access to kits instead.

In any game mode, if you are not using at least a single kit, you have kitten yourself. Just like if you choose to create a build without any stunbreakers (especially in PvP and WvW) you have kitten yourself.

The preponderance of kits is the ONLY reason why we were given a melee weapon without weapon swap.

Some have not realized it yet, but grenade kit or mortar kit is pretty much required on Hammer Scrappers in PvP/WvW.

Frightlight.3796:

Kits are not our mechanic and it never should be they are extra skills we have an option too take they should never be mandatory.

And yet mandatory utility skill categories are prevalent across all classes. What good is a thief without stealth? What good is a warrior without banners? Across PvE and PvP certain utility skill categories just go hand-in-hand with certain professions. And even though people get so hung up on kits not being our mechanic, kits are unique to the engineer and are very much so the core utility line of the profession.

Engineers are balanced around the access to kits, so even if you choose not to use them, the hammer will be balanced around their existence. To look at it a different way, if the hammer is so strong that it can operate as a standalone weapon then including it in a multi-kit build would, by definition, only make it that much stronger.

It’s impossible for ArenaNet to ever have weapons work best by themselves just by the nature of the profession. You need to accept this or reroll a different class.

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

They could as well just give us a trait line and some mechanic and be done with it.

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

They could as well just give us a trait line and some mechanic and be done with it.

I think the hammer is a great weapon for WvW frontlineing, if the engi is able to survive there if not it can also be a good thing in sPvP. For PvE maybe for raids and bossfights for controlled cc.

The Hammerskills are fine only gyros give me a strange feeling.

Right now it seems to be so. That is, if they don’t nerf it during the bwe, following that design line of “can’t have anything nice by itself because that plus kits would be too much, thus forcing us into kits either way”.

Smokin Dice.9103:

Sneak Gyro Elite
Deploy a sneak gyro equipped with a small silenced pistol to provide stealth to nearby allies and has an unstable self-cloakingfield. Shoot only when engi is visible.

Sneak gyro
CD: 30s
Duration: 10s
Invis: 3s
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Guns Damage: 40
Interval: 1s

“Active”
Cloak
The Sneak Gyro stealthes himself briefly but then explodes
CD: 10s
Duration: 3s

Shooting only when the Engi is visible would cure its flaws right away.Brilliant idea BUT it may collide on itself.

Think of it like that,you get out of stealth it begins shooting.
You decide to get in,it already loaded its shot and you get revealed,since you got revealed it will shoot AGAIN and perpetually reveal you.

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

P/P in a power build? P/S I can sort of get, but not P/P.

Slaymeding.9584:

Smokin Dice.9103:

Sneak Gyro Elite
Deploy a sneak gyro equipped with a small silenced pistol to provide stealth to nearby allies and has an unstable self-cloakingfield. Shoot only when engi is visible.

Sneak gyro
CD: 30s
Duration: 10s
Invis: 3s
Interval: 3s
Radius: 600
Guns Damage: 40
Interval: 1s

“Active”
Cloak
The Sneak Gyro stealthes himself briefly but then explodes
CD: 10s
Duration: 3s

Shooting only when the Engi is visible would cure its flaws right away.Brilliant idea BUT it may collide on itself.

Think of it like that,you get out of stealth it begins shooting.
You decide to get in,it already loaded its shot and you get revealed,since you got revealed it will shoot AGAIN and perpetually reveal you.

just so you know, If you get out of the stealth field and damage an enemy you cant get stealthed by it again eitherway.. it has the same mechanic as shadow refuge in that regard. so once you get out of stealth and attacked an enemy you cant get stealthed by the same abillity again..

People are going on a rampage now…
Relax and dont focus on the Hammer here.. the hammer is not the problem.

the problem is the viabillity of kits vs other utilitys
and especially gyros now for the scrapper.

no one will use a gyro ever if they are so much more worse then any kit, heck even med kit is better then medic gyro..

they just need to rework the mechanic of their gyros completly to make them anywhere close to a viable option..

right now if you theorycraft a build and a gyro comes up, its like.. HAHAHAHA..no.

Gyros have to be powerful and usefull and reliable to compete with kits..

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

Hyperbolic? Indeed, but not far from the truth.
Sure, we’ve got some skills to use off cooldown…and essentially we use them just because they’re there either way and they aren’t worse than a kit autoattack, but then we’re still back using the same old kits we’ve used since the start of the game for most of the time.

And it will be the same for 2, 3, 4 elite specializations. We will still have the same issue – chained in using the same old kits, despite having many new utilities. Simply because we can’t afford a place for them. Because anything is balanced over kits, and something that should be optional becomes forced instead.

Smokin Dice.9103:

People are going on a rampage now…
Relax and dont focus on the Hammer here.. the hammer is not the problem.

the problem is the viabillity of kits vs other utilitys
and especially gyros now for the scrapper.

no one will use a gyro ever if they are so much more worse then any kit, heck even med kit is better then medic gyro..

they just need to rework the mechanic of their gyros completly to make them anywhere close to a viable option..

right now if you theorycraft a build and a gyro comes up, its like.. HAHAHAHA..no.

Gyros have to be powerful and usefull and reliable to compete with kits..

The hammer is still part of the problem. If it can’t be good standalone, we will need to take kits to complement it. And thus having less slots left for anything else, like gyros.
Essentially, we won’t have a choice to start with.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

Hyperbolic? Indeed, but not far from the truth.
Sure, we’ve got some skills to use off cooldown…and essentially we use them just because they’re there either way and they aren’t worse than a kit autoattack, but then we’re still back using the same old kits we’ve used since the start of the game for most of the time.

And it will be the same for 2, 3, 4 elite specializations. We will still have the same issue – chained in using the same old kits, despite having many new utilities. Simply because we can’t afford a place for them. Because anything is balanced over kits, and something that should be optional becomes forced instead.

Smokin Dice.9103:

People are going on a rampage now…
Relax and dont focus on the Hammer here.. the hammer is not the problem.

the problem is the viabillity of kits vs other utilitys
and especially gyros now for the scrapper.

no one will use a gyro ever if they are so much more worse then any kit, heck even med kit is better then medic gyro..

they just need to rework the mechanic of their gyros completly to make them anywhere close to a viable option..

right now if you theorycraft a build and a gyro comes up, its like.. HAHAHAHA..no.

Gyros have to be powerful and usefull and reliable to compete with kits..

The hammer is still part of the problem. If it can’t be good standalone, we will need to take kits to complement it. And thus having less slots left for anything else, like gyros.
Essentially, we won’t have a choice to start with.

Then the issue here is not the hammer, but the class itself.

P/P, P/S and R are not standalone weapons. Why should Hammer be one?

The fact that something mechanical can be inflicted with something like bleed or poison is beyond stupid. How exactly do you poison something that has no living tissue? How do you make something bleed that has no blood? The phrase “trying to get blood from a stone” springs to mind.
They mad this change in the name of “balance” and yet wvw seige, gates and walls are not affected by condis so get this fat kid off my see saw.
It makes about as much sense as freezing fire or seeing hadoukens from Blanka.

While we’re at it none of the gyros with the exception of the shredder ever touch the ground so logically shouldn’t be affected by ground targeted skills such as wells, marks, traps or symbols. (things like meteor shower rain from the sky so makes sense that they would hit). People jump dodge ground pulsing aoe to avoid damage so something that can fly should take no damage.
Also the fact that they are so small and are constantly whizzing around (again shredder excepted) means that a higher percentage of physical attacks should be glancing blows.

These are things that should be so from the way they currently behave and function without even getting to the stuff that needs to be changed or buffed.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Some have not realized it yet, but grenade kit or mortar kit is pretty much required on Hammer Scrappers in PvP/WvW.

In world v world, may be, but in pvp no they realy arent, plenty clases go into pvp with out a ranged option, like guardian, warrior, thief. further more, turret engi used rifle so might as well not count as a ranged weapon.

Smokin Dice.9103:

(jump finishers are no explosive finishers but still better than Whirl).

i contest this:

simply consider that one of the key components to a burn guardians burst is whirling in their fire field. however, that aside…

leap finishers provide negligible dps. 4 are auras, that require getting hit and otherwise do nothing (you “shouldnt” be wanting to get hit). 3 are single target ccs, all good. 1 is a heal, which is great. 1 is stealth, which is arguably op cuz stealth has minimal counterplay for 7 of 9 classes. the most spammed fields in large scale wvw are light, fire, and dark, only 1 of which provides a good finisher.

everything that whirls are is aoe. 2 are aoe ccs (1 is good). 4 are dps (2 are good) good for spiking a single target from inside of it or for tagging things in the middle of a large area. 2 are worthless (vuln, regen). 1 is excellent support (light/cleansing). again out of light, fire, and dark, 2 are good and 1 is meh.

finally, consider that current whirl finishers are… well, of all the whirl finishers that even get taken only guard gs 2 and war gs 3 are things you would want to use just for the sake of using them and putting them on cd. the others are conditional (as in require a target), cant be controlled (ai), on long cd (20+ sec), or on weapons unsuited to being in the thick of things. in general leaps are on shortish cd mobility skills, which is perfect at large scale for a regroup where there is water (for a great finisher). and at a generally smaller scale leaps provide stealth access.

the problem with whirls is not that the finishers suck. because 5 of 9 are good (while 5-7 leaps are good, kinda depending on what you think of auras and the fact that theyre all single target). the problem is that there arent enough good skills that give whirls, especially conveniently synergistic fields to whirl in. as a very short cd and defensive whirl, hammer 2 is a step in the right direction to correct that (and shredder could be very eye opening for condi builds even though the entire elite spec basically offers nothing offensive for condi builds).

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

Hyperbolic? Indeed, but not far from the truth.
Sure, we’ve got some skills to use off cooldown…and essentially we use them just because they’re there either way and they aren’t worse than a kit autoattack, but then we’re still back using the same old kits we’ve used since the start of the game for most of the time.

And it will be the same for 2, 3, 4 elite specializations. We will still have the same issue – chained in using the same old kits, despite having many new utilities. Simply because we can’t afford a place for them. Because anything is balanced over kits, and something that should be optional becomes forced instead.

Smokin Dice.9103:

People are going on a rampage now…
Relax and dont focus on the Hammer here.. the hammer is not the problem.

the problem is the viabillity of kits vs other utilitys
and especially gyros now for the scrapper.

no one will use a gyro ever if they are so much more worse then any kit, heck even med kit is better then medic gyro..

they just need to rework the mechanic of their gyros completly to make them anywhere close to a viable option..

right now if you theorycraft a build and a gyro comes up, its like.. HAHAHAHA..no.

Gyros have to be powerful and usefull and reliable to compete with kits..

The hammer is still part of the problem. If it can’t be good standalone, we will need to take kits to complement it. And thus having less slots left for anything else, like gyros.
Essentially, we won’t have a choice to start with.

The hammer is as good as a standalone weapon for an engi can be, it litterally has everything important in the game right now, I dont get what makes you think it cant be good standalone.. I even played a rifle engi for a while in pve and pvp which did really good with only 1 kit which I used rarely.
Hammer is good in any fashion, sure sometimes you want to do range damage, but THEN you can still switch to a range kit or rifle before the fight.
the problem we need to solve is making other utillitys better so that you dont feel the need to have a kit, which has nothing to do with the hammer beeing bad, but damage rotations, dps and versatillity. if you had better gyros, for example (this will be just an OP example to makes things clear) If you had 5 gyros out that would each fire rockets every 2 seconds that would deal 4k per hit on 1200 range, you would have no problems with hammer and never switching it, because it feels rewarding that you have super strong damage support from behind…

wont a flame scrapper be op tho… i mean to say, double stacking might, double passive health regen (without regeneration)amongst other crazy bonuses

Smokin Dice.9103:

The hammer is as good as a standalone weapon for an engi can be, it litterally has everything important in the game right now, I dont get what makes you think it cant be good standalone.. I even played a rifle engi for a while in pve and pvp which did really good with only 1 kit which I used rarely.
Hammer is good in any fashion, sure sometimes you want to do range damage, but THEN you can still switch to a range kit or rifle before the fight.
the problem we need to solve is making other utillitys better so that you dont feel the need to have a kit, which has nothing to do with the hammer beeing bad, but damage rotations, dps and versatillity. if you had better gyros, for example (this will be just an OP example to makes things clear) If you had 5 gyros out that would each fire rockets every 2 seconds that would deal 4k per hit on 1200 range, you would have no problems with hammer and never switching it, because it feels rewarding that you have super strong damage support from behind…

Apart from the autoattack it seems a solid weapon. That is to say, assuming it won’t get nerfed during the bwe.
And it may well be if they follow that design of not making engineers’ weapon good enough standalone just due to the possibility of using them with kits, essentially ending up forcing people to use kits to make up for the shortcomings (shortcomings that are there…due to the existence of the kits themselves).
That’s what i’m bothered with. The class was designed to be forced to use kits, using up utility slots in doing so, and balanced everything toward the use of kits.
So unless something ends up being more situationally useful than what a kit can offer – usually because that’s something that a kit can’t do – and with a good degree of reliability,something that turrets (when used as proper turrets) and gyro right now can’t afford, then people will just use kits.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

P/P in a power build? P/S I can sort of get, but not P/P.

Pistols for conditions, rifle for power.

Manuhell.2759:

Smokin Dice.9103:

The hammer is as good as a standalone weapon for an engi can be, it litterally has everything important in the game right now, I dont get what makes you think it cant be good standalone.. I even played a rifle engi for a while in pve and pvp which did really good with only 1 kit which I used rarely.
Hammer is good in any fashion, sure sometimes you want to do range damage, but THEN you can still switch to a range kit or rifle before the fight.
the problem we need to solve is making other utillitys better so that you dont feel the need to have a kit, which has nothing to do with the hammer beeing bad, but damage rotations, dps and versatillity. if you had better gyros, for example (this will be just an OP example to makes things clear) If you had 5 gyros out that would each fire rockets every 2 seconds that would deal 4k per hit on 1200 range, you would have no problems with hammer and never switching it, because it feels rewarding that you have super strong damage support from behind…

Apart from the autoattack it seems a solid weapon. That is to say, assuming it won’t get nerfed during the bwe.
And it may well be if they follow that design of not making engineers’ weapon good enough standalone just due to the possibility of using them with kits, essentially ending up forcing people to use kits to make up for the shortcomings (shortcomings that are there…due to the existence of the kits themselves).
That’s what i’m bothered with. The class was designed to be forced to use kits, using up utility slots in doing so, and balanced everything toward the use of kits.
So unless something ends up being more situationally useful than what a kit can offer – usually because that’s something that a kit can’t do – and with a good degree of reliability,something that turrets (when used as proper turrets) and gyro right now can’t afford, then people will just use kits.

yes, that is the sole purpose of this thread..
so they make it that you are NOT forced to use Kits alltime err’time

and doing this through propper implementation of gyros.

Stalima.5490:

wont a flame scrapper be op tho… i mean to say, double stacking might, double passive health regen (without regeneration)amongst other crazy bonuses

yes, it does sound great in theory.. the problem is though that the flamethrower skill 1, even with 25 stacks of might, will do sooo little dps its not even funny.
flamethrower 1 needs a buff, maybe like 200-400 increase base damage and a casttime of actually 2 seconds instead of 2 1/2 seconds.
it sure has good survivabillity, but the super low range, slow projectile speed AND low damage on top of that just kills the weapon for dps purposes

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

No more hyperbolic then claiming:

Phineas Poe.3018:

And yet mandatory utility skill categories are prevalent across all classes.

Nothing in this game is “mandatory”.

Particularly given the popularity of 100% elixir builds. If your claiming kits as “mandatory” why is an all elixir build so popular in PvP?

It is just my opinion, but I get the impression that the elite specialization is designed or intended by the devs, to have a heavy, if not exclusive dependency on gyros.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.

That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think?

Both the rifle and pistol/pistol are incredibly good and slot well into both condition and power builds in PvE and PvP. Pretty much every build we have uses weapon skills off cooldown for maximum DPS or utility, so the idea that weapons are useless because they’re incapable of being ran standalone is ridiculous.

No more hyperbolic then claiming:

Phineas Poe.3018:

And yet mandatory utility skill categories are prevalent across all classes.

Nothing in this game is “mandatory”.

Particularly given the popularity of 100% elixir builds. If your claiming kits as “mandatory” why is an all elixir build so popular in PvP?

It is just my opinion, but I get the impression that the elite specialization is designed or intended by the devs, to have a heavy, if not exclusive dependency on gyros.

If you aren’t running banners as a warrior in dungeons, or aren’t running consecrations as a guardian in fractals, you’re just doing it wrong.

It’s literally not up for discussion. Certain utility skill sets are just mandatory for meta runs, and for engineers it’s kits.