Guild Wars 2

Silentsins.3726:

The “durable/safe” aspect of the FT is completely negated with even half-way decent kiting skills. Even on my war and guard, I’m rarely standing toe-to-toe with mobs even with melee weapons; using PvP reflexes to dance in/out of melee range between attacks lets you solo group pve mobs quite easily even without any ranged weapons slotted at all. Since the targeting on flame jet and flame blast makes you face your target, you can’t really kite as effectively.

Well the funny thing is that you have plenty of room to face your target while kiting them. Just look at the skills you have at your disposal with the FT (and EG):

400-range Knockback (12 second cooldown)
PBAoE Blind (16 second cooldown)
400-range Leap (12 second cooldown)
3-second Cripple (6.5 second cooldown)
100% Vigor (Invigorating Speed)
100% Swiftness (Infused Precision)

Coming from someone who also has a Guardian, I actually think it’s much easier kiting on my Engineer. Especially since I have room in my build to slot the Net Turret as my third utility.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Well the funny thing is that you have plenty of room to face your target while kiting them. Just look at the skills you have at your disposal with the FT (and EG):

400-range Knockback (12 second cooldown)
PBAoE Blind (16 second cooldown)
400-range Leap (12 second cooldown)
3-second Cripple (6.5 second cooldown)
100% Vigor (Invigorating Speed)
100% Swiftness (Infused Precision)

Coming from someone who also has a Guardian, I actually think it’s much easier kiting on my Engineer. Especially since I have room in my build to slot the Net Turret as my third utility.

Which is pretty comperable to other loadouts… except other loadouts don’t have the drawback of having to face your target.

Seetoo.9316:

And misinformation man’s sidekick takes his 1st victim.

Nades calc hit or miss when they explode, not when they are thrown. Let’s assume nades can only hit 3. In a cluster of 30, you only hit 3 per explosion (3/30). When 1 dies while a grenade is already in flight, there are only 29 targets before said grenade explodes. When said grenade does explode it takes 3 targets out of 29 left alive in the blast radius. No loss of dps due to a target dying.

Where do these people even get these?

I don’t think you considered exactly the point he was trying to make. Either way you can try to be less condescending to ppl.

I don’t really get how ppl are comparing FT to nades or bombs in the sense that FT can only hit 3 targets and nades/bombs can hit 5.

The difference is that when you throw a cluster of nades it will spread out between 5 targets and the damage is done. if a mob had 1HP and you hit them for 1k than 999dmg goes into nothingness. Because nades are a burst attack.

If a mob dies in the middle of a Flame Jet the rest of the attack carries over to the next mob. Because FT is a pulse attack, so each pulse of the FT can hit up to 3 mobs, so if you were to strafe a group of 9 mobs you could techinically hit all of them with one Flame Jet rotation.

I constantly kite groups of mobs when I am grinding and I have done it with every possible combination since beta. Yes the FT is lower damage kit than Nades or Bombs but Nades/Bombs also require you to spend 30 points in explosions for them to really be as usefull as everyone claims they are. I can pick up the FT with ANY build I am running and it helps put consistant damage on grps of mobs while giving me some escape utilities and a combo field.
It is not a PvP burst weapon.
It is no longer a great defensive bunker weapon.
It is an AoE utility kit that has been slowly improved over the last few patches.
It also works very well with all weapon combinations ( all 3 of them )

MOST of all FT is FUN.
It reminds me of playing the old Top down double-joysick shooters like Smash TV where you corral a blob of mobs and burn them all down.
If it is not fun for you than don’t use it.
If you are somehow gonna complain that not all of our kits are equally as damaging when compared to eachother and every other skill in the game than I feel you are in for nothing more than dissapointment.

Spreading misinformation is exactly what it is “spreading misinformation”. The kid gloves come off when these people don’t even test the stuff that they peach.

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack….snip

How many times does this have to get corrected?

Also, how is it so much different from how FT does its damage? FT1 does 10 attacks in 1 breath over 2.25 sec. In that same amount of time nades would have thrown 12 nades out. It also doesn’t do that much damage per wave in 1 hit, it’s 3 separate hits.

In my pvt gear I get around 150 per pulse on FT 1 (juggernaut + deadly mixture) and around 250 per grenade on nade1 (grenadier without explosive powder). I a cluster of 30 where i hit 1 with 1hp FT loses 149 damage while nades lose 249 (pretty “big” difference of 100). Later you realize that nades hit (250 × 12 × 3) – 249 (assuming 3 target cap) for 8751 and FT hit for (150 × 10 × 3) – 149 for 4351. That’s a 2.77% loss for nades while FT lost 3.31%.

Not to mention the already huge difference in damage.

CriSPeH.8512:

If a mob dies in the middle of a Flame Jet the rest of the attack carries over to the next mob

Why would you assume this doesn’t happen for nades? I throw 3 nades out. If a mob dies from the 1st explosion, the damage from the 2nd and 3rd explosions carry over to other mobs.

How about this situation then. You hit 1 target with 1HP. FT1 loses 9 hits worth of damage while nades only lose 2 hits worth of damage.

If it is a single target the target is still dead so any extra hits arent really lost either way.

I get what you are saying and you are absolutly right when it comes to nades outdamaging FT. I don’t think anyone is trying to argue against that.
But you could also say Nades out damage Toolkit or Elixir Gun but that doesn’t mean those kits aren’t usefull.

The OP Topic is Flamethrower isn’t worth a slot.
Meaning the arguement is that FT is SO bad that its never worth taking over Nades or Bombs or I guess anything else. There is alot of ppl who disagree with that. Can you honostly say that the FT is SO bad that its never worth taking?
Alot of ppl say the Engineer is so bad its not worth playing.
But there are alot of us Engineers who would beg to differ.

Yes ppl seem to have a hard time grasping that the FT only hits 3 targets compared to 5 like Nades and Bombs. But it is also misleading to say that FT only hits 3 targets because it can hit 3 per pulse for 10 pulses. So if you have a grp of 5 mobs and you strafe them you will damage all 5 multilble times during a single Flame Jet. I am guessing that is the reason its only 3 per, if it were 5 you could tag a large amount of ppl very easily.

Lets not forget that Nades need to be button mashed to keep up sustained damage.
That is one of the main reasons I run with FT for mob grinding, I get sick of having to strafe+aim+button mash and imo bombkit requires you to be a little too close for aa.

CriSPeH.8512:

The OP Topic is Flamethrower isn’t worth a slot.
Meaning the arguement is that FT is SO bad that its never worth taking over Nades or Bombs or I guess anything else. There is alot of ppl who disagree with that. Can you honostly say that the FT is SO bad that its never worth taking?
Alot of ppl say the Engineer is so bad its not worth playing.
But there are alot of us Engineers who would beg to differ.

I will agree with Kamahl that an untraited FT (for ele style play of kit dancing with FT2) is worth taking. Using the FT for anything else is not. That is my stand on the matter.

People say the engg isn’t worth it from an objective mathematical point of view. People say it is worth it from a subjective fun factor point of view (it really is fun).

CriSPeH.8512:

Yes ppl seem to have a hard time grasping that the FT only hits 3 targets compared to 5 like Nades and Bombs. But it is also misleading to say that FT only hits 3 targets because it can hit 3 per pulse for 10 pulses. So if you have a grp of 5 mobs and you strafe them you will damage all 5 multilble times during a single Flame Jet. I am guessing that is the reason its only 3 per, if it were 5 you could tag a large amount of ppl very easily.

It is also misleading to omit saying that hitting more than 3 will lower your “per target” dps. On average you will hit 3 targets for 10 hits each, 5 targets for 6 hits each, 6 targets for 5 hits each, 10 targets for 3 hits each. You will never hit on average 5 targets for 10 hits each.

CriSPeH.8512:

Lets not forget that Nades need to be button mashed to keep up sustained damage.
That is one of the main reasons I run with FT for mob grinding, I get sick of having to strafe+aim+button mash and imo bombkit requires you to be a little too close for aa.

That is a QoL issue that has its work around. Nader can spend 10pts for kit refinement for a 20sec cd burst cycle (2, 4, tool belt, KR) instead of mindlessly spamming 1. Bombers can still strafe quite easily with mobs behind them, or simply lay down a pulsing blind (still helps even after the nerf). With the FT you’ll be fighting longer (about at most 2x as long as you have too).

Silentsins.3726:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Well the funny thing is that you have plenty of room to face your target while kiting them. Just look at the skills you have at your disposal with the FT (and EG):

400-range Knockback (12 second cooldown)
PBAoE Blind (16 second cooldown)
400-range Leap (12 second cooldown)
3-second Cripple (6.5 second cooldown)
100% Vigor (Invigorating Speed)
100% Swiftness (Infused Precision)

Coming from someone who also has a Guardian, I actually think it’s much easier kiting on my Engineer. Especially since I have room in my build to slot the Net Turret as my third utility.

Which is pretty comperable to other loadouts… except other loadouts don’t have the drawback of having to face your target.

Except the Grenade Kit is actually relatively terrible at kiting, offering only a 2-second chill every 16 seconds (20 untraited). The Grenade Kit is our Fire Attunement. It is a damage-dealing build. Regardless of whether or not one can throw them behind oneself doesn’t change that fact. Only the Bomb Kit really matches the Flamethrower/Elixir Gun in control.

But the conversation wasn’t about how good the Flamethrower is as a kiting kit compared to other kits. You simply talked about how it was difficult to kite with it even though the amount of leaps/knockbacks you have at your disposal, especially if you’re using the Rifle in conjunction, which offers an additional leap, snare, and knockback, is really more than enough.

The FT/EG Engineer has more than plenty options to keep enemies at bay, regardless of whether I have to face my target or not.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Silentsins.3726:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Well the funny thing is that you have plenty of room to face your target while kiting them. Just look at the skills you have at your disposal with the FT (and EG):

400-range Knockback (12 second cooldown)
PBAoE Blind (16 second cooldown)
400-range Leap (12 second cooldown)
3-second Cripple (6.5 second cooldown)
100% Vigor (Invigorating Speed)
100% Swiftness (Infused Precision)

Coming from someone who also has a Guardian, I actually think it’s much easier kiting on my Engineer. Especially since I have room in my build to slot the Net Turret as my third utility.

Which is pretty comperable to other loadouts… except other loadouts don’t have the drawback of having to face your target.

Except the Grenade Kit is actually relatively terrible at kiting, offering only a 2-second chill every 16 seconds (20 untraited). The Grenade Kit is our Fire Attunement. It is a damage-dealing build. Regardless of whether or not one can throw them behind oneself doesn’t change that fact. Only the Bomb Kit really matches the Flamethrower/Elixir Gun in control.

But the conversation wasn’t about how good the Flamethrower is as a kiting kit compared to other kits. You simply talked about how it was difficult to kite with it even though the amount of leaps/knockbacks you have at your disposal, especially if you’re using the Rifle in conjunction, which offers an additional leap, snare, and knockback, is really more than enough.

The FT/EG Engineer has more than plenty options to keep enemies at bay, regardless of whether I have to face my target or not.

The reason the flamethrower is terrible at kiting is not due to it’s CC, it’s due to it’s restricted radius of attack and how it slows down movement.

When fully traited Grenades offer burst/condi-burst from 0 to 1500 in a 300 degree radius, much less than that behind you, they offer 4 sec chill untraited, 6 sec chill with grenadier (if you have any aim you will land all three grenades since the fields overlap) and a blind. They can damage 5 enemies at a time (each grenade) and they will hit enemies in any direction you target no matter where your character is facing.

Bombs offer a full 360 degrees of attack, they can damage 5 enemies at a time, and they will hit no matter what direction your character faces. Bomb kit also offers good CC abilities like smoke bomb, glue bomb and concussion bomb which (if you’re any good at using it) will prevent most attacks from damaging you when in melee range.
Bombs do have a shorter range than flamethrower, being at 120 untraited and 180 traited.

Meanwhile flamethrower has at most a 60 degrees on its attack radius (30 degrees to each side tops), has 600 range max and misses if your target exits this cone of damage. Most of the time you have to be back pedaling (pressing S) to deal damage and keep enemies from going behind you (or the sides) and exiting your radius of attack. Backpedaling in itself is slower than going in any other direction, so to do damage and kite you have to move slower than others.

Using bombs you can dart in an out of melee applying CC (if you’re any good at timing) without having to worry about where you face or being slower by backpedaling. Grenades are just as good only they have a range advantage and a multitude of conditions.

This is what people mean by saying that flamethrower is worse at kiting. What they mean is that to do damage you reduce your mobility considerably while other kits don’t have this effect.

RIght, that’s a lot of back and forth. My two cents:

I carry three weapons on my engi. I have my pistol shield default. That lets me spam conditions against a single target. Bleed/Poison/Blind/Confuse/Burning(w/ Incindiary Ammo) will take down just about anything I’m going after in short order unless it’s a vet or higher, then it takes a few rounds of it.

Tool kit is for melee range. ’nuff said.

However, if I’m up against baddies with conditional resistances, or a BUNCH of baddies at once, it’s the Flamethrower all the way. Just being an AOE with good damage means I can hold down the sidestep key(a or d) and keep the camera moving so I circle around the targets and burn them up. I can hold my own against vets and champs solo this way and with some fancy footwork come out on top. There is nothing wrong with the FT. And pair it with the Net Turret to slow down your targets and you can completely outmaneuver everything on the field while keeping it in the hot seat, literally, until they fall over in flames.

Flamethrower is fine.

Seetoo.9316:

It is also misleading to omit saying that hitting more than 3 will lower your “per target” dps. On average you will hit 3 targets for 10 hits each, 5 targets for 6 hits each, 6 targets for 5 hits each, 10 targets for 3 hits each. You will never hit on average 5 targets for 10 hits each.

this is where you miss the point though. if FT 1 hits 3 targets per pulse, then any more than 3 targets lowers your “PER TARGET” dps, not your “OVER ALL” dps.

A(10×3) and B(5×6) both equal 30, but in A, the per target dmg will be more. this is not misleading.

of course you never hit 10×5.

but the over all point is that ft 1 can “hit” up to 30 times every 2.25 seconds against 3 or more foes, at a maximum of 3 foes per pulse over 10 pulses.

You yourself went to great pains to correct me on this, i don’t see why it is an issue again.

Seetoo.9316:

It is also misleading to omit saying that hitting more than 3 will lower your “per target” dps. On average you will hit 3 targets for 10 hits each, 5 targets for 6 hits each, 6 targets for 5 hits each, 10 targets for 3 hits each. You will never hit on average 5 targets for 10 hits each.

It’s not really misleading because I am not making arguement for damage. I know and said that the FT will do less damage than Nades and Bombs I was just making the point that its misleading to say the FT skill #1 can only hit 3mobs.
See once again you are just doing math to prove a point.
I’ve played with the FT for months, all through the miss miss miss obstructed obstructed obstructed up till now when I still use it in PvE.
Now the missing is semi-corrected I almost never get obstructed unless I am actually obstructed and Flame Blast can detonate. (and hit 5 targets btw)
If you are trying to claim that if you stayed in Grenade or Bomb kit and attacked a group of golems with auto-attack you would kill them faster then if you did it with FT, then I totally agree with you.
But there is alot more to the game than just seeing the highest numbers all the time.

Seetoo.9316:

That is a QoL issue that has its work around. Nader can spend 10pts for kit refinement for a 20sec cd burst cycle (2, 4, tool belt, KR) instead of mindlessly spamming 1. Bombers can still strafe quite easily with mobs behind them, or simply lay down a pulsing blind (still helps even after the nerf). With the FT you’ll be fighting longer (about at most 2x as long as you have too).

Yes that is true if you are using nades for the 100nade burst than you spamming wont be a problem. But back to what you were actually saying in the Topic about how much Nades out DPS FT, yeah as long as you spam them.
This is just a matter of playstyle whats easy/fun for some ppl isnt easy/fun for others. I personally think Bombkit is the most boring kit we have, useful yes, but just boring and stupid looking.

I also never really stay in a single kit long enough to notice a huge difference in how long it takes me to take down mob groups. Its not really about how much damage the kit can do on its own its about how well you can use it with your other skills.
And I personally love the way FT synergizes with my weapons and its one of the funnest kits I’ve played with and they have recently made it even better.

If its not fun for you then fine but don’t try and write it off as useless, because it is far from it.

But I’m not writing it off as “useless” because it is “not fun”. I’m writing it off as “useless” because it is “mathematically inferior” to everything else we have. That’s pretty much why I’ve been using math.

I’ll quote JohnDied for something he said that shared my sentiments.

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it “looks cool” (my edit “feels fun”)…

Great

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m sorry, but this is strictly a L2P issue. If you can’t handle Retaliation/Confusion in this game, regardless of class/build you’re using, you simply are not very good at this game.

Phineas Poe.3018, show us, master, how to handle retaliation at the invisible zerg? Proove your own words ^^

Even the people defending the FT must see that “but it’s fun” vs. “it may yield more damage, but it’s boring and annoying” is not a great way to balance weapons.

A lot of people here seem to be rather prejudiced against bombs/nades simply because they are just bad gameplay design (i.e. 5 skills that are technically exactly the same is not fun), which I can relate to; it’s the main reason I don’t use them anymore.

I suppose Anet thinks this is mitigated by the fact we can just switch in and out to use a single skill, so you’re not forced to stay in a boring weapon.
If that’s the logic though we’re not just getting a utility tax and a damage tax because of kits, but a ‘fun tax’ as well.
How much should a class get taxed because they get 1 second weapon switching?

Seetoo.9316:

But I’m not writing it off as “useless” because it is “not fun”. I’m writing it off as “useless” because it is “mathematically inferior” to everything else we have. That’s pretty much why I’ve been using math.

I’ll quote JohnDied for something he said that shared my sentiments.

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it “looks cool” (my edit “feels fun”)…

Great

By your logic everyone should just play the profession and build that is mathematically superior to all the others? And all the others are useless!?

This isn’t WoW your math doesn’t mean as much here and FT isn’t always inferior to nades and bombs. If you are running in a good zerg in WvW facepalming other zergs you can tag way more enemies than you could with nades because of the throw+travel time along with skill lag. Now that they lowered the amount you need to dmg ppl to tag them for loot and the fact that you are taking ppl down as a large grp most likely with might stacks means the FT lower dmg doesn’t really matter, But its faster hit rate and ability to tag multiple targets while strafing does and its done without spamming, PLUS having a blind and knockback is pretty useful to interupt casters along with our nice new Flame Blast.

So my “mathematically inferior” Kit nets me alot more loot bags than the Nade spammers and the bomb divers can have fun trying to stay close enough to ppl to hit them with their explosions.

I agree if you want to say that the FT damage just isn’t enough to satisfy bursty players.
But calling the Kit useless is just an injustice to new players trying to learn and get excited about the profession.
It is also just completely false.
And Misinformation!

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

I’ve already shown how nades do more hits per sec and more damage per hits. How exacly does FT out tag nades with its lower damage lower hits per sec and lower cleave?

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m sorry, but this is strictly a L2P issue. If you can’t handle Retaliation/Confusion in this game, regardless of class/build you’re using, you simply are not very good at this game.

Phineas Poe.3018, show us, master, how to handle retaliation at the invisible zerg? Proove your own words ^^

I’m not talking about WvW; but even if I was, if we were dealing with culling issues here, and you couldn’t see your target, then why does it matter what build you’re using in the first place?

I think you’re right to identify that it’s hard to defend against Retaliation against a target you can’t see, but that is something any build/class would have to deal with.

I also find it interesting that the minute you quote my post and respond to it, it is reported and disappears.

Seetoo.9316:

But I’m not writing it off as “useless” because it is “not fun”. I’m writing it off as “useless” because it is “mathematically inferior” to everything else we have. That’s pretty much why I’ve been using math.

I’ll quote JohnDied for something he said that shared my sentiments.

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it “looks cool” (my edit “feels fun”)…

Great

Because a lot of it does have to do with “feel.”

Why did you buy the car you did? Over others? The five-star crash rating? Maybe. But some cars simply run better than others. There are intangibles. You had a certain “feel” for one.

I don’t get that with the Grenade Kit. I don’t like having to constantly aim. I don’t like having to deal with the air time. I don’t like having to deal with having no auto attack.

I just don’t like the Grenade Kit. I never did. I never will. I don’t know if not liking a kit is a perfectly legitimate reason not to use it, but it’s how I decide how I play the game.

Hundred Blades is an amazing skill for Warriors, but I hate using the greatsword so I don’t use it. I don’t really much care if I’m dishing out the most damage in my group. What matters most is that I’m having fun.

And I have fun with the Flamethrower despite the slight DPS loss. I think the biggest tragedy in this thread is the perpetuation that there is some massive difference in damage between the Flamethrower and the Grenade Kit when there really isn’t—and has already been illustrated in this thread.

I’d agree with you guys if running the FT crippled your group, and that going for “look and feel” affected group cohesion. But it doesn’t. I’ve run countless dungeon runs with my build with just as much success as I do with my Grenade Kit. The impact of running the FT over the Grenade Kit is greatly exaggerated, and that is my problem with this thread.

Fun is a factor, at least for me and apparantly for many others too.

But keep in mind that when it comes to the dev’s balancing damage across kits, that ‘fun’ can indeed NOT be a determining factor to give one kit less effective damage than another.

I say ‘effective’ damage, because numbers are only part of it.
Missing or flying time, arming time, cone versus aoe spread, detonating versus piercing etc… all are factors that decide how easy something is to land the damage.

Both grenades and FT have issues lowering their damage.
It’s not easy comparing the two, because they never seem to fit the same role in a fight anyhow…

Seetoo.9316:

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

I’ve already shown how nades do more hits per sec and more damage per hits. How exacly does FT out tag nades with its lower damage lower hits per sec and lower cleave?

Because it hits faster and more ppl more frequently.
Thats untraited meaning you can run any build you want and than whip out your FT when you are gonna run through a zerg. Nades need to be GM traited to be as effective as you keep claiming.

You haven’t shown anything besides you like to do more math than you do playing the game. You haven’t shown that in all situations Grenades can out DPS FT, I see no video of you taking down different grps of mobs with both kits and showing the times.
You are theorycrafting with damage numbers in a game that has multiple factors that can alter those numbers.

You could make the same arguement that the Rifle is better damage than P/S so then again by your logic P/S is useless.

You are just another person who doesn’t like the way something is so you complain about it on the forums in hopes that a Dev will read it and change it to your liking. Then you lash out and argue with anyone who disagrees or simply has a different opinion because you are afraid that a Dev will see their post and decide not to change things.

But hey I am all for Anet making the FT do more damage I don’t think anyone would complain about that.

I would just warn ppl to not listen to the overexaggerated complaints that alot of ppl have towards the FT and say try it out for yourself, it is Fun.

Kimbald.2697:

But keep in mind that when it comes to the dev’s balancing damage across kits, that ‘fun’ can indeed NOT be a determining factor to give one kit less effective damage than another.

I can agree with that.

I just personally come from the perspective that the Flamethrower doesn’t deal as much damage as the Grenade Kit simply because it’s a more durable kit. Why should the Flamethrower deal as much damage as the Grenade Kit when the Grenade Kit is a significantly more vulnerable setup? The Flamethrower satisfies the middle ground between the Grenade Kit (full-offensive) and the Tool Kit (full-defensive).

To put it another way, do you see Guardians demanding the Mace does as much damage as a Greatsword? Of course not. It is used differently and satisfies a different playstyle.

While it’s true that there are escape skills available to the Engineer regardless of what kit you’re using, you just can’t overlook the 200 Toughness that the Flamethrower gets from Juggernaut.

You also can’t overlook the fact that the Grenade Kit scales best by stacking both Condition Damage and Power. Thankfully Might does a good job of that, but I come from the opinion that “defensive” insignias that have Condition Damage (like Carrion/Rabid) are just not anywhere near as good as providing survivability as the Soldier insignia is, which applies both Toughness and Vitality. There is no such insignia currently in the game that has Condition Damage as either a Major/Minor attribute with Vitality and Toughness, which can make stat allocation kind of difficult unless you’re going full glass cannon with Zerker/Rampager and Ruby. Which ultimately only re-instills the fact that the Grenade Kit is our Fire Attunement.

CriSPeH.8512:

Seetoo.9316:

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

I’ve already shown how nades do more hits per sec and more damage per hits. How exacly does FT out tag nades with its lower damage lower hits per sec and lower cleave?

Because it hits faster and more ppl more frequently.
Thats untraited meaning you can run any build you want and than whip out your FT when you are gonna run through a zerg. Nades need to be GM traited to be as effective as you keep claiming.

Now it’s FT1 untraited? Now you’re saying FT1 doesn’t need the 50 trait point investment? So what if nades needs the 30 pts for 50% more damage with an extra grenade and +10% explosion damage. FT on the other hand needs a 50 pt investment + might duration runes do be even comparable. But now you wanna FT1 thru a zerg untraited?

CriSPeH.8512:

You haven’t shown anything besides you like to do more math than you do playing the game. You haven’t shown that in all situations Grenades can out DPS FT, I see no video of you taking down different grps of mobs with both kits and showing the times.
You are theorycrafting with damage numbers in a game that has multiple factors that can alter those numbers.

And by your logic no one should believe you because you’ve done … nothing to support your claims.

CriSPeH.8512:

You could make the same arguement that the Rifle is better damage than P/S so then again by your logic P/S is useless.

So now it’s a power rifle vs a condition pistol… right.

CriSPeH.8512:

You are just another person who doesn’t like the way something is so you complain about it on the forums in hopes that a Dev will read it and change it to your liking. Then you lash out and argue with anyone who disagrees or simply has a different opinion because you are afraid that a Dev will see their post and decide not to change things.

And you are just another person making unsupported claims.

CriSPeH.8512:

But hey I am all for Anet making the FT do more damage I don’t think anyone would complain about that.

I would just warn ppl to not listen to the overexaggerated complaints that alot of ppl have towards the FT and say try it out for yourself, it is Fun.

Yes, the numbers are soooooooooooooo exaggerated, specially with the disclaimer saying they are actually lower than the test numbers.

Seetoo.9316:

Now it’s FT1 untraited? Now you’re saying FT1 doesn’t need the 50 trait point investment?

I would actually argue that the Flamethrower is now a 60 trait point investment, with Incendiary Powder in the Explosives tree for additional Burning damage (with a 10% damage increase to Flame Jet).

I do think a 10/30/0/20/10 split is the new meta for the FT.

I’m kinda iffy about IP since it has a 3sec icd. The icd means you can only hit 1 target with it. It’s pretty good single target though (+ you get 10% more condition duration by default just by taking the trait).

I guess this is as far as I go here (unless someone corrects the math or suggests a nice new test to try out).

Seetoo.9316:

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

This is the entire sentiment of this thread, but there will be people who react aggressively towards this because they feel that we are attacking their preferred weapon.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Because a lot of it does have to do with “feel.”
[…]
I don’t get that with the Grenade Kit. I don’t like having to constantly aim. I don’t like having to deal with the air time. I don’t like having to deal with having no auto attack.

I just don’t like the Grenade Kit. I never did. I never will. I don’t know if not liking a kit is a perfectly legitimate reason not to use it, but it’s how I decide how I play the game.
[…]
And I have fun with the Flamethrower despite the slight DPS loss. I think the biggest tragedy in this thread is the perpetuation that there is some massive difference in damage between the Flamethrower and the Grenade Kit when there really isn’t—and has already been illustrated in this thread.

Feel is everything to a play-style, but we aren’t critiquing your play-style we are just objectively looking at a weapon kit that is deficient to the others and needs improvement.

The sheer numbers have been crunched, the mechanics have been analyzed, the play-styles discussed. What it comes down to simply, is that the flamethrower is a weapon that needs a redesign or some serious buffs (not more of this might stacking nonsense that just serves like a bandaid to a bruise).

What we’ve had so far is arguments from people who go to great lengths to improve a weapon that they enjoy, which is a good thing but isn’t very helpful. We want to improve this weapon so that people who didn’t think “wow I love using a flamethrower” will have a reason to use it. We wan’t this deficient weapon shine at it’s niche in the engineer arsenal and not be outclassed by bombs and grenades.

The DPS loss is not slight, the loss in utility is not slight, the loss in mobility is not slight. Flamethrower engineers make it seem slight through runes/sigils/practice. Anyone can stack 10+ stacks of might through rune/sigil/traits and boost any weapon, it’s just that most weapons don’t need to be boosted and allow players to utilize those runes/sigils/traits on other things like survival. When grenadiers put that much effort into boosting their grenades you get devastating (and broken) builds like 100nades. When flametroopers do it you get acceptable (and broken) flamethrower builds.

Same thing can be said of HGH pistol builds. In a game that’s all about one character being able to do a little of everything, if you have to dedicate everything about your character into boosting one weapon set then you have a broken build. Regardless of it being effective in WvW, it’s still broken and the devs will try to “balance” it (just look at the kit refinement nerf brought on by 100nades).

Skilled players will always make something look good, even if it’s a weapon or build that’s terrible for the character and the class.

This is probably a bug that will be corrected, but I’ve noticed that the FT #2 skill will sometimes double-hit if you let it go to the extent of it’s range without manually exploding it. I was a little surprised to see Orr trash lose 2/3 – 3/4 of their health from one hit. Started paying attention and I’m definitely seeing the ~1800 from the trail and ~4500 twice from the explosion. That may also explain some of the obscene number of apparent hits I’m seeing when I fire it into a group of mobs. It’s not a bad amount of damage for a 6 sec cooldown. It didn’t use to do this before they allowed you to explode the shot early and I’ve never seen it double-hit when I do explode it early.

I was using FT with pie and ghost pepper poppers before the nerf, so the high number of crits made the FT ideal in that situation (healing for around 1000hp per mob per flame jet), but was ready to give up on it with the new IC on food until I discovered this.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Except the Grenade Kit is actually relatively terrible at kiting, offering only a 2-second chill every 16 seconds (20 untraited). The Grenade Kit is our Fire Attunement. It is a damage-dealing build.

Completely wrong. Frost grenade is 2.5 seconds with the standard 30 in explosives, stacking per grenade, so x3. That’s a 7.5 second snare… the best in the game.

Either way, it seems that you missed the point of my post completely, but others covered it already with:

JohnDied.3476:

The reason the flamethrower is terrible at kiting is not due to it’s CC, it’s due to it’s restricted radius of attack and how it slows down movement.

…and even more so with:

JohnDied.3476:

The sheer numbers have been crunched, the mechanics have been analyzed, the play-styles discussed. What it comes down to simply, is that the flamethrower is a weapon that needs a redesign or some serious buffs (not more of this might stacking nonsense that just serves like a bandaid to a bruise).

What we’ve had so far is arguments from people who go to great lengths to improve a weapon that they enjoy, which is a good thing but isn’t very helpful. We want to improve this weapon so that people who didn’t think “wow I love using a flamethrower” will have a reason to use it. We wan’t this deficient weapon shine at it’s niche in the engineer arsenal and not be outclassed by bombs and grenades.

Fun and effectiveness are not mutually exclusive. Personally, FT is my favorite kit, but I can see the deficits that remain. This is not a conflicting viewpoint at all. For what it’s worth, I still play the kit anyway, would NEVER call it “not worth the slot”, and I do appreciate the direction that they’re taking the kit… but let’s call a spade a spade here, it’s not there yet.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting this kit to have an optimal place in our loadout… and I don’t feel that it’s an unreasonable request either. A-net must agree, or why would the be buffing it to begin with?

JohnDied.3476:

Seetoo.9316:

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

This is the entire sentiment of this thread, but there will be people who react aggressively towards this because they feel that we are attacking their preferred weapon.

It’s funny you say this because I feel like I am being attacked aggressively because I don’t agree that the Flamethrower is a useless kit. It’s like because I’m OK with where it’s at (though there’s room for improvement) there’s something wrong with me.

Right now with my FT/EG build I can 100% sustain a Light field (Kit Refinement) and Fury for myself (Rune of Altruism + Drop Stimulant). My damage output is fantastic, especially now that I can detonate Flame Blast when it will hit the most targets.

The only thing I’d really ask for at this point is some kind of finisher on Flame Blast.

I don’t disagree with you guys that there’s room for improvement on the Flamethrower that needs to be addressed—just that the Flamethrower’s output is more than tolerable with no button mashing and minimal kit swapping.

JohnDied.3476:

The DPS loss is not slight, the loss in utility is not slight, the loss in mobility is not slight. Flamethrower engineers make it seem slight through runes/sigils/practice. Anyone can stack 10+ stacks of might through rune/sigil/traits and boost any weapon, it’s just that most weapons don’t need to be boosted and allow players to utilize those runes/sigils/traits on other things like survival. When grenadiers put that much effort into boosting their grenades you get devastating (and broken) builds like 100nades. When flametroopers do it you get acceptable (and broken) flamethrower builds.

Same thing can be said of HGH pistol builds. In a game that’s all about one character being able to do a little of everything, if you have to dedicate everything about your character into boosting one weapon set then you have a broken build. Regardless of it being effective in WvW, it’s still broken and the devs will try to “balance” it (just look at the kit refinement nerf brought on by 100nades).

Skilled players will always make something look good, even if it’s a weapon or build that’s terrible for the character and the class.

I’ll take that last bit as a complement, but the fact of the matter is that the Flamethrower doesn’t require dedicating “everything” into boosting it.

What are the traits that benefit it? In Firearms and Alchemy. Which is used in practically every build. The original 0/30/0/20/20 split of the FT/EG build allowed far more versatility than what is offered with 30 points in Explosives, which benefited solely the Grenade Kit. Bomb Kits don’t need more than 20 points, so you’re essentially spending 10 points for one kit and nothing else; 30 points in Firearms gives me Coated Bullets, Juggernaut, and Go For The Eyes—which all have their uses.

Who puts 30 points in Explosives and goes for Autodefense Bomb Dispenser? The Bomb Kit Engineer is a difficult pill to swallow because Elixir-Infused Bombs requires 30 points in a tree that is built to modify our weakest area: turrets. Juggernaut instead is in the Firearms tree, which is filled with traits useful for any build, which modifies 300 Precision and 300 Condition Damage.

How is that crippling? I clear 60% critical hit chance with PVT armor and Emeralds with 100% sustained Fury.

ShadowKatt.6740:

RIght, that’s a lot of back and forth. My two cents:

I carry three weapons on my engi. I have my pistol shield default. That lets me spam conditions against a single target. Bleed/Poison/Blind/Confuse/Burning(w/ Incindiary Ammo) will take down just about anything I’m going after in short order unless it’s a vet or higher, then it takes a few rounds of it.

Tool kit is for melee range. ’nuff said.

However, if I’m up against baddies with conditional resistances, or a BUNCH of baddies at once, it’s the Flamethrower all the way. Just being an AOE with good damage means I can hold down the sidestep key(a or d) and keep the camera moving so I circle around the targets and burn them up. I can hold my own against vets and champs solo this way and with some fancy footwork come out on top. There is nothing wrong with the FT. And pair it with the Net Turret to slow down your targets and you can completely outmaneuver everything on the field while keeping it in the hot seat, literally, until they fall over in flames.

Flamethrower is fine.

I agree with you. I’ve been using FT since I could and I love it. I used nades, toolkit and EG and I tought they were cool, but not my style. Since then, I learned how to use the FT and how to get around it’s many issues. I’m always the last man standing in a pull gone wrong, I’m the one ressing the awesome damaging ‘naders and I’m always the guy being hit by 5 mobs at the same time. All of this while doing realiabe and constant damage with my FT and my two pistols. I couldn’t do this if I were using other kit. Not because the kit being useless, but because it’s not my forté.

My point is, this is more an issue of L2P rather than the FT being worth the slot or not.

Also, the change to Flame Blast is awesome. I was already used to the distance of it’s detonation and could do awesome burst damage with it. Now, I can detonate it on melee range, usually 1 shotting everything. Good times indeed.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I also find it interesting that the minute you quote my post and respond to it, it is reported and disappears.

by yourself? lol ^^

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

SilverWF.4789:

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

Uhwwuhhh? The Guardian Staff is a healing support weapon.

Not sure where you’re coming from here.

I cant speak for PVE, i imagine FT is atleast decent option there for something.

SPVP however it doesnt cut it.. It used to be worth grabbing for the toolbelt skill in condition builds. Not really sure i could see myself giving up any essential tools to make room for it on my utility bar.

the #1 skill
misses a lot due to the still present terrain bug (very apparent on new map)
is channeled so it can be interrupted or dodged before applieng the dot (or they just run/teleport out of it)
Your rarely in situations where you could be hitting multiple people (and if you are, there are better AE alternatives such as Grenades)
Damage is weak when considering the damage on rifle (rifle peirces and hits multiples too…. from further away )

the #2 skill
is actually decent now with only one issue. Seems to become obstructed or dissapear randomly after cast. More of a bug than a weakness.

the #3 skill
Makes no sense on a weapon that wants you to be close range (unless your just reflecting projectiles with it) With that said i think its the best ability this weapon has, because you can use it for extra cc and reflect before swapping back to your normal weapon.

the #4 skill
its a combo field, but it is a wall. So you wont benefit yourself using it unless you swap off of FT to something with a combo finisher.
It casts slow.
It has a long cd.
It is probably the worst ability the kit has. For it has the least synergy with the rest of the kit.

the #5. skill
An aoe blind
Good because you have to get close to use this kit.
You can use it while CC’d which is good.
Its incredibly less amazing than almost any 5th skill on any kit or any weapon in the entire game though. Making it lack luster.

Toolbelt skill.
Boring but good for condition specs.

So there you have it, some pros and cons there for ya.

Biggest issue with the flame thrower is its abilitys dont work together.
Quick solutions.
1 skill applies fire at start.
2 skill blast finisher.
3 skill make it reflect attacks longer. Knocks down instead of knockback. (remove fire damage)
4 skill cast faster should be a circle instead of a wall.
5 Should be something else less boring that works with the rest of the kit. (Backdraft was better)

Do all this then balance the numbers.

Zinwrath.2049:

I cant speak for PVE, i imagine FT is atleast decent option there for something.

SPVP however it doesnt cut it.. It used to be worth grabbing for the toolbelt skill in condition builds. Not really sure i could see myself giving up any essential tools to make room for it on my utility bar.

the #1 skill
misses a lot due to the still present terrain bug (very apparent on new map)
is channeled so it can be interrupted or dodged before applieng the dot (or they just run/teleport out of it)
Your rarely in situations where you could be hitting multiple people (and if you are, there are better AE alternatives such as Grenades)
Damage is weak when considering the damage on rifle (rifle peirces and hits multiples too…. from further away )

the #2 skill
is actually decent now with only one issue. Seems to become obstructed or dissapear randomly after cast. More of a bug than a weakness.

the #3 skill
Makes no sense on a weapon that wants you to be close range (unless your just reflecting projectiles with it) With that said i think its the best ability this weapon has, because you can use it for extra cc and reflect before swapping back to your normal weapon.

the #4 skill
its a combo field, but it is a wall. So you wont benefit yourself using it unless you swap off of FT to something with a combo finisher.
It casts slow.
It has a long cd.
It is probably the worst ability the kit has. For it has the least synergy with the rest of the kit.

the #5. skill
An aoe blind
Good because you have to get close to use this kit.
You can use it while CC’d which is good.
Its incredibly less amazing than almost any 5th skill on any kit or any weapon in the entire game though. Making it lack luster.

Toolbelt skill.
Boring but good for condition specs.

So there you have it, some pros and cons there for ya.

Biggest issue with the flame thrower is its abilitys dont work together.
Quick solutions.
1 skill applies fire at start.
2 skill blast finisher.
3 skill make it reflect attacks longer. Knocks down instead of knockback. (remove fire damage)
4 skill cast faster should be a circle instead of a wall.
5 Should be something else less boring that works with the rest of the kit. (Backdraft was better)

Do all this then balance the numbers.

Basically this, although I’d add the food changes make FT1 suicidal in WvW now vs retaliation & confusion/proc. Fewer bigger hits needed.

Zinwrath.2049:

I cant speak for PVE, i imagine FT is atleast decent option there for something.

SPVP however it doesnt cut it.. It used to be worth grabbing for the toolbelt skill in condition builds. Not really sure i could see myself giving up any essential tools to make room for it on my utility bar.

that’s fair, but I’d wager that this is because the way the FT is most effective is not the way that you play. You see, the FT is most effective mid-range from large groups of enemies, not melee range and not bow range, mid range.

Zinwrath.2049:

the #1 skill

there is a difference between running sideways with your camera facing your foe, and with strafing sideways and facing your foe. Most miss issues occur when you are not facing your foe. The cone of FT 1 is widest at its apex (naturally), so when you step back and strafe around a group, you are more likely to distribute more damage. as you practice with this, you will find yourself corralling your foes like cattle within your flaming fury. it works.

Zinwrath.2049:

the #2 skill

I’ve noticed this as well, additionally it seems to bug out and strike twice at max range. like medkit swap effect with KR, this’ll get fixed eventually.

Zinwrath.2049:

the #3 skill

Makes perfect sense when you start using the FT for what it was meant for. Mid Range combat. The point of air blast is to keep your foe away from you. If you combine it with net shot from the rifle, or net turret toolbelt, or net turret itself, or any other kind of CC available to the engie (which is aplenty) then this move makes perfect sense, because they are kept mid range to be struck by the widests spot of yoru cone as you move around and singe their short n curlies.

Zinwrath.2049:

the #4 skill

this wall could use improvement, yes, like dmg or a cripple in addition to the burn, but it’s wall shape provides you with a buffer to keep your foes on the move, while you strafe or run back and forth through this wall, keeping the foe on the other side of it.

this is only one example of how to use it. it can also be fired up on to ledges to burn foes with a height advantage, or tossed down with a oil drum to add extra burn duration to the attacking force.

Zinwrath.2049:

the #5. skill

I cannot disagree with you on #5. it is a good skill that could be better.

Zinwrath.2049:

Toolbelt skill.
Boring but good for condition specs.

So there you have it, some pros and cons there for ya.

Our toolbelt skill with FT is one of the best burn applications in the game, and with the added burn on FT3, it got better.

Zinwrath.2049:

Biggest issue with the flame thrower is its abilitys dont work together.

FT abilities can be used well together, you just have to know how to use them. They are designed with the intent of keeping your foes at bay, grouped up. Played well, it does this very effectively. Played poorly, it does not.

There are numerous situations in sPvP and WvW where I find myself staying out of the main fire fight, strafing around the fringe of a zerg or cap squad, hitting everyone and spreading fire around like levitican confetti.

it is not a burst playstyle, it is a mayhem creating playstyle.

Public forums.. where only damage matters. In any discussion.

Bleh.

Seetoo.9316:

Seetoo

I clipped all of your little BS responses. If you are just gonna to take single lines from ppls posts to counter them out of context then I wont waste as much time typing.
Politician.

You have proven nothing more than on paper Nades have higher damage than FT.
Then you disregard every comment someone makes about how they like and use the FT very effectivly.

You do nothing to back up your claim, because your claim is that the FT isn’t worth taking ever. You cant back this up because you are just utterly wrong. It is just your opinion, most likely built of being frustrated with something in the game that you don’t like.

I give examples to show how broad the statements you make are and you seem to get confused that I am changing the subject.

My claim is that the FT is perfectly viable and useful kit to use in PvE and some WvW situations. I know this is true for myself because like I said I have actually played with it for a long time.

If you want play D&D GW2 on a piece of paper and a calculator that is fine. But don’t try to claim skills are useless because you still play like its World of Warcraft.

That is it, reply and try and prove the FT is the utter garbage you claim it is, I wont check because I know you don’t have anything.

I would also changed the name of this Topic to
“The complaints about FT are still not worth a Forum Thread”

@mdaikon
I just tried it out. Letting FT2 explode on its own has always gotten me a 2nd explosion. I’m just throwing out a guess here, I think it’s because if you let it explode, the game still thinks you detonated.

The damage becomes real impressive. If this stays like this FT2 returns to it’s original range of half melee half range limbo.

Yesterday I was in Wayfarer Foothils and Diessa Plateau doing Living Story events using the FT as my main weapon. Scaled down to low level zones the combination of damage, burning and CC on the FT worked fine against massed mobs.

What sucked was that whenever I soloed events on a slope the FT would only damage the portal or Dredge personnel carrier by accident (i.e. when hitting another mob) and even then the hits were rare. I’d clear out the mobs and then spend the time till the next respawn trying to get the FT to hit the portal or carrier – and missing every single time. In each case this went on for so long that b) other people eventually turned and killed the object for me (bad look for engineers), and b) I got so many respawns I quickly racked up the 150 event kills required for the Gathering Storm achievement.

FT got one of the best skills. Yeah its FT1.
Just imagine you are in the middle of zerg and all you can see are flames. Flames and even more flames.
Does anybody know how demoralizing it is? Weels from necro are good too, but its just red circle on ground and you can even not notice it.
But those flames?
Play startegic. Main zerg running towards another zerg. 2 FT on each side of enemy zerg. Flames everywhere. And also with FT3 enemies will just ne bouncing inside their own zerg. FT4 will make walls of fire around them and just add to enemy panic.
FT5 will help engies to live. And FT2 will add big damage to enemy zerg.
So hell yeah, 4 FT engies to every group. Even if they dont do the biggest dmg, inceasing panic of enemies will help more.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

The Guardian Staff is a healing support weapon.

I’m laughting hard, thank you.

Flamethrower is not fine in SPVP. Its grenades or bust, unless your bunkering, in which case bomb kit.

nakoda.4213:

Zinwrath.2049:

I cant speak for PVE, i imagine FT is atleast decent option there for something. SPVP however it doesnt cut it.. .

that’s fair, but I’d wager that this is because the way the FT is most effective is not the way that you play. You see, the FT is most effective mid-range from large groups of enemies, not melee range and not bow range, mid range.

Exactly, in SPVP these situations you mention do not happen, its 5v5 so rarely are you fighting “large groups of enemies” and mid range is something that is meaningless, a mellee player will be in mellee range of you when he wants to fight you, a ranged player will be trying to kite you. So if you get YOUR way, you will be in mellee range of them, because you want to be as close as possible to someone who doesnt want to be near you..

nakoda.4213:

there is a difference between running sideways with your camera facing your foe, and with strafing sideways and facing your foe. Most miss issues occur when you are not facing your foe. The cone of FT 1 is widest at its apex (naturally), so when you step back and strafe around a group, you are more likely to distribute more damage. as you practice with this, you will find yourself corralling your foes like cattle within your flaming fury. it works.

Cant tell if your trying to be insulting or not with this so i’ll pretend your not. I am not getting miss messages for firing where the targets are not at, i am getting miss when my flames go THROUGH them as i run STRAIGHT AT THEM ..FACING THEM. Thats a big difference from whatever your talking about. The problem comes with the still present bug where if they are on the 2nd step of the stairs and i’m on the first …or any elevation difference sometimes it just misses. Its a common bug, they did not fix it with last patch …or any other patch they claimed they did. Since the new map is all stairs, play it, fire on someone whos higher or lower than you, and theres atleast a 50% chance it will just say “miss miss miss miss”. Also, coralling your foes like cattle? No..you dont fight multiple people often in spvp, maybe 3 on some maps. And no one is going to change where they are too much because of your little flame thrower damage, instead they will burst you down with their 6k-12k burst attacks or shrug it off because they’re a gaurdian/elementalist and it just isnt as threatening damage. .

Skill 3

Makes perfect sense when you start using the FT for what it was meant for. Mid Range combat. The point of air blast is to keep your foe away from you. If you combine it with net shot from the rifle, or net turret toolbelt, or net turret itself, or any other kind of CC available to the engie (which is aplenty) then this move makes perfect sense, because they are kept mid range to be struck by the widests spot of yoru cone as you move around and singe their short n curlies.

Exactly, its really good for using, then swapping off the FT to use something else. Which brings me to the whole point of FT not working together, your better off using it for its CC or fire wall then whipping out a good weapon untill those abilities are off CD, staying in FT is a bad option, because the primary attack is …bad. Lots of people run retaliation builds so good chance #1 skill will end up just killing you anyway, when i was experimenting with FT most of my death reports showed retaliation as the number one source of damage dealt to me. ALso this mid range combat jargan, Its ranged…not mid ranged. Its mellee or ranged in spvp. Your using wvwvw or pve talk. Most ranged combat in spvp happens at no further than 900 range, and doesnt stay there long as people move closer or teleport onto you.

Skill 4

this wall could use improvement, yes, like dmg or a cripple in addition to the burn, but it’s wall shape provides you with a buffer to keep your foes on the move, while you strafe or run back and forth through this wall, keeping the foe on the other side of it.

this is only one example of how to use it. it can also be fired up on to ledges to burn foes with a height advantage, or tossed down with a oil drum to add extra burn duration to the attacking force.

Tossed down with an oil drum? I said at start my opinion is entirely based around spvp, which explains a lot of your responces, your not grasping that. This put on ledges thing etc, offers no advantage in spvp people dont stand still and just chuck stuff at you like in wvw. They dive your face, or they run around shooting you. There is no reason to be on the other side of it than your enemy, you have no finishers with flame thrower. The only reason to strafe back and forth i suppose would be to keep them walking through it but not often practical and ranged players simply dont care which side your on.

continued responce…

Biggest issue with the flame thrower is its abilitys dont work together.

FT abilities can be used well together, you just have to know how to use them. They are designed with the intent of keeping your foes at bay, grouped up. Played well, it does this very effectively. Played poorly, it does not.

It doesnt do what you just said nor is it intended for that. I dont want foes at bay, or else i cant hit them with my #1, it has no way to slow people down or stun them to prevent them from being on my face except for one knockback that puts them outside of my #1. It is a close range combat kit. You want to be as close as possible, and it has no ability to keep foes grouped up. Also once again spvp….not many group fights. its 5v5, always 2 people are bunkering or roaming. So its easy to say “trust me it works if you know what your doing” but with no explanation your words fall on deaf ears.

There are numerous situations in sPvP and WvW where I find myself staying out of the main fire fight, strafing around the fringe of a zerg or cap squad, hitting everyone and spreading fire around like levitican confetti.

spvp perspective, unless your only do hotjoin this only pertains to wvw (i’m talking from the angle that i am using this to play in the E-sport version of the game in which balance is crucial, wvw and hotjoin this isnt as important)

it is not a burst playstyle, it is a mayhem creating playstyle.

agree with it not being a burst playstyle

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

The Guardian Staff is a healing support weapon.

I’m laughting hard, thank you.

Why? That’s what it is. Sure it has Line of Warding, but it is for the most part a support weapon. Unless you’re trying to say something about its #1 skill’s wide arc.

Most Guardians use it purely for Empower and slap an Energy sigil on it for free Endurance. Beyond that, there’s not much point sticking to it unless you’re doing things like kiting in AC path 2.

Zinwrath.2049:

it has no way to slow people down or stun them to prevent them from being on my face except for one knockback that puts them outside of my #1.

I just wanted to say: Flame Jet has a range of 425. Air Blast is a 400 range knockback.

Used correctly, it does not put anyone outside of your Flame Jet’s range.

In WvW FT1 great decent damage to mass of ppl. should have more burning becuase of misses. Fixed FT2 thank you gods of tyria! I nuke 2-5k aoe blasts siding with statistic discharge. FT3 good knockback learn to use it. FT4 needs complete fix. FT5 needs boost. AOE blind is cool but really meeh skill 5. FT1 is not supposed to do rifles auto. for example fightin in group over sup camp i strafe alot spamming FT1 + 2 aoe damage and when get too close 3. Very good support for team and deffinately worth the slot.

+ really love when guardian pulls enemies in pack and blast in SD and FT2 massive damage

Phineas Poe.3018:

Zinwrath.2049:

it has no way to slow people down or stun them to prevent them from being on my face except for one knockback that puts them outside of my #1.

I just wanted to say: Flame Jet has a range of 425. Air Blast is a 400 range knockback.

Used correctly, it does not put anyone outside of your Flame Jet’s range.

First, there is no correct or incorrect way to use an ability.
Second, what your saying would imply the only time you should use Air blast is when they are INSIDE of you.
Third, advantages to this ability include.
Fighting mellee champ but they are pwning me and i need to buy a second for another CD to come up or energy to dodge roll.
I am near a cliff and want to knock someone off it.
A ranged champ used some unload dps ability on me and i want to knock it back in their face. (no they will not be inside of you)
And also, someone is rezzing or about to stomp my friend. I can knock them off of them.

But if your goal is to flat out do as much damage as possible, and your fighting someone who doesnt want to fight you at mellee range, using air blast is helping them and knocking them out of the range of your primary damage.

But i agree that it has its uses as listed above (very good uses infact), just dont think it works as well as the ability they removed from the kit “backdraft” sucked people INTO you….seems like that would synergy with the rest of your kit. Drop firewall, suck them into you, blind them, do damage. But they didnt like the idea that the flame thrower could Blow and Suck…(and i mean that metaphorically as well as literally) so they removed the Suck and kept the blow. When it should have been the other way around.

EDIT: for the record backdraft was the original 5th ability. It was semi OP in some scenerios as it could pull multiple people much like the Gaurdians 5th ability that does that only AE, and does damage, and is a combo finisher…..and cc…..Nm, backdraft was totally legit.

Zinwrath.2049:

Exactly, in SPVP these situations you mention do not happen, its 5v5 so rarely are you fighting “large groups of enemies”

Actually, they do happen all the time in sPvP, that was my point. 5v5 is tourny play. I play spvp/pve explore exclusively these days. love it. ranged player kiting you? get in his face, make hate you. if you are on a point in sPvP there are RARELY any situations where players will be out of range because they will be trying to crowd the cap. people are stupid that way, exploit it. remember: you are playing people, and people are often dumb, use that to your advantage. (disclaimer: i make many dumb mistakes myself, we all do)

Zinwrath.2049:

*Cant tell if your trying to be insulting or not with this so i’ll pretend your not. I am not getting miss messages for firing where the targets are not at, i am getting miss when my flames go THROUGH them as i run STRAIGHT AT THEM ..FACING THEM. *

Sorry, but I have never seen a miss while running straight at an opponent, ever. Only time I am missing is when an opponent does the “run through your avatar” and make me have to 180, during the spin there are many misses. You know why? because I am not facing my enemy, not because the game is broken.

Burst attacks do not hit very hard when you stack toughness. Rabid gear might be a solution for you. pre/tough/COND, then focus a lot on might stacks, maybe?

Zinwrath.2049:

Exactly, its really good for using, then swapping off the FT to use something else. Which brings me to the whole point of FT not working together, your better off using it for its CC or fire wall then whipping out a good weapon untill those abilities are off CD, staying in FT is a bad option, because the primary attack is …bad. … ALso this mid range combat jargan, Its ranged…not mid ranged. Its mellee or ranged in spvp. Your using wvwvw or pve talk. Most ranged combat in spvp happens at no further than 900 range, and doesnt stay there long as people move closer or teleport onto you.

It is actually really good for staying in FT, the swap is actually to assist the FT, and I am talking about sPvP, I have been the whole time.

FT3 > Net Toolbelt or Rifle 2 if on CD > FT2 > Vice Versa on the snare > FT1/strafe > FT3 again (guess what, traited it only takes 12 seconds)

only one example of how to use it.

Zinwrath.2049:

Tossed down with an oil drum? I said at start my opinion is entirely based around spvp, which explains a lot of your responces, your not grasping that. This put on ledges thing etc, offers no advantage in spvp people dont stand still and just chuck stuff at you like in wvw.

Also just one example of how to use it. We can both play the “i dont wvw” card, but that does not mean that tossing an FT3 down with an oil drum when IN wvw is pointless. any scrubs dumb enough to stand at the gate will have extra burn and extra burn duration because of the toss. I said it was an example, not the be all end all of strategy.

Why did you take this all so personally?

Frankly, in WvW i would rather run a roaming build like PPHGH or Dementia, but in WvW if you are squadding with a good team, then you are awesome dmg and cond application by skirting the edge of zerg forces spreading fire around like I said before.

The point of my post was to illustrate that your claim which says that FT abilities do not work and do not work well together is wrong. They do work, they do work well together, and I am sorry they do not work well for you. Maybe FT isn’t your flavour of ice cream?

I use the FT exclusively in sPvP as a top point scorer (been at it a month now, only rank 16, sorry, I don’t play 24/7), and consistently act as an anchor on points for my team by keeping the points clear of foes.

You are right, any one player might show up and burst you down using their combos. This can happen to anyone, but a good player will have his CC and stun breaks ready with cond removal to remain in the fight until back up arrives. The FT thrives fighting large groups, and in sPvP you can face up to 8 people at once, not just 5.

Zinwrath.2049:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Zinwrath.2049:

it has no way to slow people down or stun them to prevent them from being on my face except for one knockback that puts them outside of my #1.

I just wanted to say: Flame Jet has a range of 425. Air Blast is a 400 range knockback.

Used correctly, it does not put anyone outside of your Flame Jet’s range.

First, there is no correct or incorrect way to use an ability.
Second, what your saying would imply the only time you should use Air blast is when they are INSIDE of you.
Third, advantages to this ability include.
Fighting mellee champ but they are pwning me and i need to buy a second for another CD to come up or energy to dodge roll.
I am near a cliff and want to knock someone off it.
A ranged champ used some unload dps ability on me and i want to knock it back in their face. (no they will not be inside of you)
And also, someone is rezzing or about to stomp my friend. I can knock them off of them.

But if your goal is to flat out do as much damage as possible, and your fighting someone who doesnt want to fight you at mellee range, using air blast is helping them and knocking them out of the range of your primary damage.

But i agree that it has its uses as listed above (very good uses infact), just dont think it works as well as the ability they removed from the kit “backdraft” sucked people INTO you….seems like that would synergy with the rest of your kit. Drop firewall, suck them into you, blind them, do damage. But they didnt like the idea that the flame thrower could Blow and Suck…(and i mean that metaphorically as well as literally) so they removed the Suck and kept the blow. When it should have been the other way around.

EDIT: for the record backdraft was the original 5th ability. It was semi OP in some scenerios as it could pull multiple people much like the Gaurdians 5th ability that does that only AE, and does damage, and is a combo finisher…..and cc…..Nm, backdraft was totally legit.

i swear people don’t read, they just react.

No where in ANY post has Phineus EVER claimed that ALL he does is seek MAXIMUM dps out of the FT .. EVER …

He and I have both maintained consistently that the FT is an effective weapon that deals reasonable damage at the cost of higher survivability and utility over other specs at our disposal which offer less mitigation but higher damage output.

The arguments over damage have been to assert that claim, and Seetoo’s own math has confirmed that the FT is actually higher DPS than a rifle. The argument then became over whether the FT is ranged or Melee (only one “L”, beeteedubs), and I still assert that FT is as much a melee weapon as the Mesmer GS (which is to say it isn’t; it is actually a ranged/projectile weapon).

So, since the main FT attack does as much or more dmg as a ranged weapon (within our class, let’s not mix warrior rifle and engie rifle, dont be that guy with irrelevant logic), and does considerably MORE dmg at close/mid range with multiple opponents, then I think it is safe to assert that the FT is a viable and engaging weapon that is useful, aggressive, and also fun to use.

Anyone who claims that fun has nothing to do with success in a video game needs to rethink why they play video games.

edit: also, any ONE of the reasons to use the FT that you listed are EXCELLENT reasons to have the FT slotted, and only serve to contradict your lackluster disappointment with the kit.