Guild Wars 2

I tested flamethrower again. Few things:

1) It’s MUCH more intuitive – I was able to hit with everything fairly well and only the auto attack seemed weird.

2) The autoattack range still doesn’t match up with animation – My flames STILL hit, but I “miss” the target.

3) This is inferior in damage to Bomb and Grenade kit. This is a low skill and less damage version of those two kits. It really shouldn’t be a kit for people who can’t handle harder kits. Make it what it really should be: Point defense. Give skill 2 less damage and a knock back. Making this a mid range damage kit makes it inferior to other damage kits.

4) Skill 4 and 5 still feel out of place. I understand how to use them, but it feels like a stretch.

5) The 10% vs burning is too minimal. I honestly didn’t even notice it.

Overall: You still have to work way harder with this kit for less of an effect than other kits. Make it a CC kit.

its fun to use.

but yeah, you’re right: still not worth a slot.

I think the damage it does is pretty reasonable. Wait no, the opposite.

I swear, I get more damage out of a grenade/bomb engi with cleric gear.

EDIT: Oh, and I get reliable burning with bomb kit.

Are you joking? Skill 3 is a cone knock-back on a ridiculously short cool down. Skill 5 is an instant-activation pbaoe blind. How can you even MORE cc on the flamethrower when engis are already the kings of cc.

Engis complain about how the only useful engi is a glasscannon nade engi and they still complain time and time again after each effort that is made to improve the viability of toolkits.

The other day I was in a dungeon with another engineer who was donning the flamethrower. That thing was shooting out flames to the 900+ range! You can’t really get that sense of range from a behind-your-character perspective. Of course, it wouldn’t hit that far out, and it really shouldn’t.

But to address that concern, consider their options:
1) Make the flamethrower kit targets out to 900 or so range…that isn’t going to happen.
2) Make the flame animation smaller/stop shorter…that takes away the cool factor.

I agree FT is not for min-maxing, and I guess nobody thinks it is viable in sPvP (I rarely play it). But it’s got a cool factor, and that matters to some people.

Probably because the efforts are too minimal to appreciate on this kitten buggy class. I don’t even know why they bother with all the might stacking on flamethrower, just give the kit some kitten damage to compensate for the low mobility and call it a day.

EDIT: I agree that the flamethrower’s cool factor is probably what’s kept it alive, it’s just a shame that it’s useless to people who weren’t impressed with it to begin with. Talk about there being a kit you never consider taking if you don’t care about looking cool.

all I’ve ever played in spvp is FT. it’s always been lots of fun. can’t wait to get home and check out the buffs.

FT5 is 1 time use melee blind on a melee kit that has no mobility, making it only useful against slow attacking mobs. It does nothing against the plethora of multi-hit nukes available in the game.

FT3 is an UNRELIABLE knock back BECAUSE it’s a cone.

Now this is ignoring the fact that FT1 is a melee ability that does HALF melee damage (the change to FT2 solidifies the FT as a melee kit). Add them all together and you get the conclusion that FT is still not worth the utility slot

Seetoo.9316:

FT5 is 1 time use melee blind on a melee kit that has no mobility, making it only useful against slow attacking mobs. It does nothing against the plethora of multi-hit nukes available in the game.

FT3 is an UNRELIABLE knick back BECAUSE it’s a cone.

Now this is ignoring the fact that FT1 is a melee ability that does HALF melee damage (the change to FT2 solidifies the FT as a melee kit). Add them all together and you get the conclusion that FT is still not worth the utility slot

ever actually traited and used FT? doesn’t seem like it. btw, two minutes of theory crafting with traits in the mists doesn’t count.

I’ve got around 100 FT hours logged on my engie. it rocks. sorry you don’t like it but your opinion is only opinion.

I like how the FT played beforehand in PvE. If you trait for 10 in Explosives and get the burn-on-crit proc, then you increase your chances of keeping an enemy burning.

P/P engineers can make use of this a lot better than any other engineers.

I just wish they would make the burning trait up to 50% from 20%. That trait deserves an increase.

I used it going up to 80 (cuz of the life steal pies) and going up to fractal 10 (cuz of the life steal pies). It got harder with increasing fractals levels, but I liked it. I had to work getting out of the range limbo between FT1 and FT2, but I liked it.

With plans to go to fractal 20 (possibly higher) I compared FT 1 to rifle1 to see how much more damage I was doing in melee with the FT. I found out I was doing less.

My opinion may be “mine”, but it is based on tests with actual numbers behind it. You never even tested yours out (yet you preach as though it were fact).

Saying something “rocks” because you are unaware of how much better other options are doesn’t make it rock. So yeah, happiness does come from being unaware of your own misery.

Flamethrower isn’t suppose to compete with Grenade or Bomb kit for damage.

Its strengths lie in its consistent damage output and the Juggernaut trait that grants higher defenses and a damage boost.
That’s crap for a glass-cannon, but ideal for a bruiser looking to be able to take hits but also keep up high dps

Also – Flame Jet’s attack is focused towards where the camera is pointing, not where necessarily where your flames are going.

Flamethrower was already half-decent before these buffs. It’s a great weapon for toughness/healing builds. Now it’s perfect! :)

Just being able to detonate Flame Blast means our DPS goes up by like a good 10~20%.
That +10% against burning enemies and the +2 sec burning from skill3 weren’t even necessary.

Seetoo.9316:

With plans to go to fractal 20 (possibly higher) I compared FT 1 to rifle1 to see how much more damage I was doing in melee with the FT. I found out I was doing less.

I assume your numbers also factor in the burn at the end? And they also factor in more burns from Incindiary Ammo? That would be interesting.

With the changes to Air Blast, it seems to me AN wants the FT to be a power/precision/condition damage hybrid, not one of just power or conditions.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Flamethrower isn’t suppose to compete with Grenade or Bomb kit for damage.

Its strengths lie in its consistent damage output and the Juggernaut trait that grants higher defenses and a damage boost.

It’s a bruiser’s ideal weapon.

Also – Flame Jet’s attack is focused towards where the camera is pointing, not where necessarily where your flames are going.

Flamethrower was already half-decent before these buffs. It’s a great weapon for toughness/healing builds. Now it’s perfect!

Just being able to detonate Flame Blast means our DPS goes up by like a good 10~20%.
That +10% against burning enemies and the +2 sec burning from skill3 weren’t even necessary.

But that’s just my point. They tried to make this compete with grenade kit, and it just can’t. This cannot be about damage.

Here’s all the times it could be useful:

1) Kicking people off cliffs. – It’s brilliant for that; however, so are many other options. One overcharged shot does the same thing without wasting a utility slow. Granted, this is not bad for this.

2) AoE damage It’s very mindless AoE damage, and for that it takes a huge damage hit. Grenade kit completely out preforms this both in direct and condition damage. Skill is not an argument against this.

3) Point defense it knocks people out, but it doesn’t knock them down. That means they can just immediately walk back in. On a cap point, that’s maybe a tick or so. Not terrible, but worth a utility slot? Nah.

4) Self-defense – It has a blind, but only melee range. It has a knock back, but it’s not a knockdown. It has a burn wall, but that doesn’t do very much damage. This alone will not keep you alive very well at all.

This kit is either completely useless for something, or only meh for it.

By the way, am I the only one disappoint at how bad this is at spreading burning? I really wish the damage wasn’t in the direct damage, but the burning itself.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Flamethrower isn’t suppose to compete with Grenade or Bomb kit for damage.

Why not? FT has no unique uses to it.
FT vs nades (used at melee)
FT does 5 attacks per sec. Nades do 6 attacks per sec.
FT applies 1 stack of vulnerability at 50% per crit (with precise sights). Nades apply 1 stack per hit 100%
FT applies 3sec bleed on crit at 30% chance. Nades apply 15sec bleed on hit at 15% (no need for crit)

FT vs bomb
No contest. Raw, untraited bombs do more everything than a fully traited FT (maybe not the 1sec burn every 2sec).

DreamOfACure.4382:

Its strengths lie in its consistent damage output and the Juggernaut trait that grants higher defenses and a damage boost.

How is any other option the engg has any less “consistent damage output”? Even with the might from juggernaut, you still do less. You could even say the FT is less consistent since the kit has no means to stay at melee, should a target disengage.

DreamOfACure.4382:

It’s a bruiser’s ideal weapon.

This is nothing but flavor text (bruiser wasn’t even defined).

DreamOfACure.4382:

Also – Flame Jet’s attack is focused towards where the camera is pointing, not where necessarily where your flames are going.

Flamethrower was already half-decent before these buffs. It’s a great weapon for toughness/healing builds. Now it’s perfect!

Really? Toughness/healing? Really? At least you’re right about “half decent”

DreamOfACure.4382:

Just being able to detonate Flame Blast means our DPS goes up by like a good 10~20%.
That +10% against burning enemies and the +2 sec burning from skill3 weren’t even necessary.

Now the FT2 is a great change, I’ll agree on that. It basically solidified the FT’s range as melee (no more part melee part ranged crap).

Test numbers at https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Flamethrower-oriented-support/first#post1460594 Juggernaut + deadly mixtures FT + rifle / bomb without their respective +10% damage traits.

flamethrower was actually decent before the newest patch. if you swapped to med kit during the 2 second channel you could proc the kit refinement activation twice, and swap back to flamethrower in time for the second autoattack. this could boost the dmg from 3k to 4k which would make it slight below par to the rifle auto attack [4k every 2 seconds + burn vs 4k ever 1.5 seconds]

I agree that it’s strange that you don’t get a constant burn effect. Most people wonder about this since it’s supposed to be a Flamethrower.

I would actually like a constant burn applied while under attack by Flame Jet, with a 1 second burn applied at the end. I don’t know how hard it would be to adjust the mechanics so that the burn is applied.

I would like for it to apply a 2sec burn at the start. Then reduce the base damage to 1 with a clause “increase damage to (what ever the current base damage is now) if the target is burning”.

Burning, burning everywhere!!

below par, sub par, lol you kittens are fanatics with your min/maxing.

when I say FT rocks, it’s because I play with, enjoy playing with it, and never find myself wishing “gee I wish I could be doing as much dmg as XYZ spec”

when I say FT rocks it’s because my time in sPvP is fun, successful, and I enjoy it.

when I say FT rocks it’s because it does. And none of your spread sheeting, theory crafting, min maxing nonsense mewling will change that.

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it looks cool…

Great

Except that I don’t find myself handicapped while using it. ever.

The only problem I have with it is that Its not useable in the spvp meta. I mean I go down FAST with all the confusion applied to me. :/ I would really appreciate it if the flame jet itself was one attack, not every single little spark it does >.< cant do crap like that

Okok. I’ll explain what I meant.

To the engineers who don’t care about the appearance they have (or the image they put forth) with a kit, the flamethrower is a subpar weapon in every way. Those engineers wan’t the flamethrower to be buffed so that we have a good reason to use it. Otherwise it’s just a waste of space and development time.

To the engineers who use the flamethrower because they like how they look with a flamethrower, the flamethrower is good enough because to them it serves it’s purpose, it looks good.

What I don’t understand is why every thread that tries to make people ask for a better flamethrower turns into this huge argument between the two groups?

Well, I lie. I do understand. The fact that we are attacking one aspect of the flamethrower makes the people who like another aspect think we’re attacking something they like, therefore they retaliate.

Anyway, I should say this then. If you say that the flamethrower is fine as a subpar weapon, why would you argue with someone who wants it to be a good weapon?
Wouldn’t improving the flamethrower for the first group be beneficial for the second?

Penguin.5197:

The only problem I have with it is that Its not useable in the spvp meta. I mean I go down FAST with all the confusion applied to me. :/ I would really appreciate it if the flame jet itself was one attack, not every single little spark it does >.< cant do crap like that

confusion is king, and will be for a long time. you gotta be on top of cond removal.

Penguin.5197:

The only problem I have with it is that Its not useable in the spvp meta. I mean I go down FAST with all the confusion applied to me. :/ I would really appreciate it if the flame jet itself was one attack, not every single little spark it does >.< cant do crap like that

I hope you mean retaliation it’s actually good vs confusion – 1 attack every 2 seconds vs 10 hits proccing retaliation.

Number 2 change is good number 3 not sure I see the point, but ok. Number 4 still on a way to long cool down for what it does. Number 5 have you looked at guardian weapons leap aoe blind plus damage low cool down. Number 5 should be a smoke field for 4 seconds or something or much much shorter cool down.

Though the F skill takes the cake 9 second burn on a 60 second cool down compared to so many other skills I can’t figure out why they think that’s justified

JohnDied.3476:

Okok. I’ll explain what I meant.

To the engineers who don’t care about the appearance they have (or the image they put forth) with a kit, the flamethrower is a subpar weapon in every way. Those engineers wan’t the flamethrower to be buffed so that we have a good reason to use it. Otherwise it’s just a waste of space and development time.

To the engineers who use the flamethrower because they like how they look with a flamethrower, the flamethrower is good enough because to them it serves it’s purpose, it looks good.

What I don’t understand is why every thread that tries to make people ask for a better flamethrower turns into this huge argument between the two groups?

Well, I lie. I do understand. The fact that we are attacking one aspect of the flamethrower makes the people who like another aspect think we’re attacking something they like, therefore they retaliate.

Anyway, I should say this then. If you say that the flamethrower is fine as a subpar weapon, why would you argue with someone who wants it to be a good weapon?
Wouldn’t improving the flamethrower for the first group be beneficial for the second?

where do you get this notion that people defend the FT because it “looks cool”?

looks have nothing to do with it. it could be a solid grey cone without animation, who cares? functionality is what is key, and as a CC/cond weapon, the FT is incredibly functional and versatile and powerful.

no, it is not as high dps as other specs, no one ahs ever claimed it was, they have claimed the dmg is good enough given everything else it does.

you are once again arguing the “have the cake and eat it too” style of game play.

how about they just give us all 160 trait points, and remove all cooldowns from the game. that’ll make it more interesting.

darp.

Merkenary.9860:

Penguin.5197:

The only problem I have with it is that Its not useable in the spvp meta. I mean I go down FAST with all the confusion applied to me. :/ I would really appreciate it if the flame jet itself was one attack, not every single little spark it does >.< cant do crap like that

I hope you mean retaliation it’s actually good vs confusion – 1 attack every 2 seconds vs 10 hits proccing retaliation.

Number 2 change is good number 3 not sure I see the point, but ok. Number 4 still on a way to long cool down for what it does. Number 5 have you looked at guardian weapons leap aoe blind plus damage low cool down. Number 5 should be a smoke field for 4 seconds or something or much much shorter cool down.

Though the F skill takes the cake 9 second burn on a 60 second cool down compared to so many other skills I can’t figure out why they think that’s justified

the change to FT#3 increases your overall dmg output by ensuring your foe stays burning, or anything stays burning.

Flame sigil just became a 100% must in the FT build for maximum output.

“the change to FT#3 increases your overall dmg output by ensuring your foe stays burning, or anything stays burning.”

Except its a knockback; and in any group you run with you will get kicked if you use a knockback on a mob that someone else is trying to melee.

Unless you are spending time burning mobs that aren’t the center of attention…. (which your group will just LOVE…)

He argues because he can’t accept how he was horribly wrong. Doing 50% less damage after applying this imaginary functionality is no joke. 5% is min/maxing, 50% is not.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I tested flamethrower again. Few things:

1) It’s MUCH more intuitive – I was able to hit with everything fairly well and only the auto attack seemed weird.

2) The autoattack range still doesn’t match up with animation – My flames STILL hit, but I “miss” the target.

3) This is inferior in damage to Bomb and Grenade kit. This is a low skill and less damage version of those two kits. It really shouldn’t be a kit for people who can’t handle harder kits. Make it what it really should be: Point defense. Give skill 2 less damage and a knock back. Making this a mid range damage kit makes it inferior to other damage kits.

4) Skill 4 and 5 still feel out of place. I understand how to use them, but it feels like a stretch.

5) The 10% vs burning is too minimal. I honestly didn’t even notice it.

Overall: You still have to work way harder with this kit for less of an effect than other kits. Make it a CC kit.

Completely agree! the miss thing still happens with me has been since the last patch they told us it was fixed in.

5 should be an AOE black powder effect not a 1 second puff of cigarette smoke.

the enhancement to 4 is nice but doesn’t really help when as engineers most of our attacks have a really short burn duration when if we looked at the real physics of these weapons they all should provide burning short of regular rifle bullets. (why do we have to trait to burn again? shouldn’t that be intuitive? and why does the burn occur at the end of the #1 cycle, as soon as the flames touch the enemy they should be burning refreshing the burn until the end just like the poison dart shots do with poison).

MeateaW.3519:

Except its a knockback; and in any group you run with you will get kicked if you use a knockback on a mob that someone else is trying to melee.

I haven’t tested it but wouldn’t a well (or rather, badly) placed Air Blast knock mobs out of the range of Flame Jet anyway? So yea, so much for the added damage.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Are you joking? Skill 3 is a cone knock-back on a ridiculously short cool down. Skill 5 is an instant-activation pbaoe blind. How can you even MORE cc on the flamethrower when engis are already the kings of cc.

Engis complain about how the only useful engi is a glasscannon nade engi and they still complain time and time again after each effort that is made to improve the viability of toolkits.

engis king of cc? You havent try cc on a ranger.

Alright everyone, I’m somewhat notorious for min/maxing, and my kitmaster setup for PvE has just dropped Tool kit for Flamethrower. Why? HADOUKEN. I just pop it off every 6 seconds, it hits harder than a level 3 eviscerate. It’s seriously worth it. Prybar was single target and Throw Wrench often only did half damage. Gear Shield is still outstanding though, and if I need a 3 second block, I’ll definitely swap tool kit back in.

But given how hard it hits on a 6 second cooldown, it’s like a second shrapnel grenade at point blank, without even taking the 15% trait. SHINKU HADOUKEN

Sorry, but when I tested it yesterday

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspyanuShF17IBoHAuu3V0jH34J/pAbB

with a lot of berserker stuff also some rabid, 2 rampager pistols (+5% crit, air) (i know, not very straight )
and it was simply great. FT2 was perfectly usable. And it felt faster than grenades which i was running for a long time now.
Damage wise for me this is comparable to grenades and much softer to use than bombs.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I tested flamethrower again. Few things:

1) It’s MUCH more intuitive – I was able to hit with everything fairly well and only the auto attack seemed weird.

2) The autoattack range still doesn’t match up with animation – My flames STILL hit, but I “miss” the target.

3) This is inferior in damage to Bomb and Grenade kit. This is a low skill and less damage version of those two kits. It really shouldn’t be a kit for people who can’t handle harder kits. Make it what it really should be: Point defense. Give skill 2 less damage and a knock back. Making this a mid range damage kit makes it inferior to other damage kits.

4) Skill 4 and 5 still feel out of place. I understand how to use them, but it feels like a stretch.

5) The 10% vs burning is too minimal. I honestly didn’t even notice it.

Overall: You still have to work way harder with this kit for less of an effect than other kits. Make it a CC kit.

Fully agree
And you are forgot about Omnomberry food – our hidden surprise. But it’s nerfed like hell too – 1 sec CD it’s… it’s… God…

So, this patch – incredible FT nerf.

nakoda.4213:

the change to FT#3 increases your overall dmg output by ensuring your foe stays burning, or anything stays burning.

Flame sigil just became a 100% must in the FT build for maximum output.

FT#3 doing what? It sends your target(s) away from the #1 ! Yeah, great increase, especially for power builds, Oh, you are forgot FT for power builds only?

Flame sigil what? With 5 sec CD? Think before posting!

nakoda.4213:

the change to FT#3 increases your overall dmg output by ensuring your foe stays burning, or anything stays burning.

Am I the only one to find +10% damage to burning foes for a channeled attack which applies only 1 sec. burning after the channel and an increase to burning duration on another attack for our class rather weird and useless?

And to add FT#3 after a FlameJet has some issues, like you will only get the burning from FT#1 after you hit the target with the channel finisher, the 1 sec. time-window being very short and blowing a CC for damage.

So both seem only usefull with pistol´s blowtorch, maybe with incendiary power – but most time the target will not burn – unless I bring an Ele-buddy.

Don’t forget you can drop a #4 Napalm field and get some burning off that, as well as the Toobelt skill which adds burning to your next 3 attacks (even if it is a long cooldown).

Hit the FT toobelt skill immediately before FT#1 and the +10% damage should kick in for most of the approx FT#1 flame (proved the target stays in the flames).

:facepalm:

FTers - power builds, coz all of FT damage is from POWER.
What point in the burning with 300 damage per second? We asked for another buff, but they are give us something useless.

Only idiots will stay in the Napalm flame, especially with it’s very low area.

FT toolbelt? This LOL-skill with ONE MINUTE cooldown? Even Grenade Barrage (grenade toolbelt) and Oil Bomb (Bomb toolbelt) have only 30sec CD but this skills a way more useful!

Flame Jet puts only ONE second of burning with the LAST tick, but FT channeling continues for 2,25 sec. So we will have +10% damage only for the half of Flame Jet channeling. In the another words they are buffed damage of Flame Jet only by 5%

How you can not understand so obvious things??

I didn’t say it was great, just that even on its own the FT has ways to get the +10% damage vs burning to kick in for most if not all of the flame jet.

FT is handy in PvE, just don’t try to rely on it for all your adventuring needs.

Who cares about PvE? In the PvE you can do everything with only autoattack.
Im talking about WvW

Hello all.
I’m a high wvw player and I still doing every day 3 paths or so from a dungeon, so I won’t speak about sPVP but about my experience:

First of all: The first problem I find in FT it’s the skill#1. It’s a 2s channeled skill, so, while a guardian can damage up to 5 players up to a 1k per enemy (5k*2 dps) damage with his staff (going full support with soldier equip), I can do like 1’8k/2 damage up to a 3 persons that are static or moving stacked and in a way I can stay near them during 1 second, facing them. This means that, while a Guardian only needs 0’2+0’2 seconds to do like 7’5k damage total splitted between 5 different persons, I need an entire second to make 2’7k damage (plus burning, bleeding and vulnerabilities) to 3 enemies. Seriously?? Why this?

I though flamethrower skill #1 should be like the mobs from Citadel of Flame, those who wear flamethrower, you HAVE TO get out from his flames or you will take insane damage. FT#1 it’s easy to evade or make that don’t hurt you at 100% of his capacity, simply MOVING. It’s almost impossible to strike with the 10 hits to a single foe. So, why it have less damage ratio than other autoattacks?? I though FT was more a control point kit, giving you pushback, good damage from the ball, a “nice” aoe blind a stupid aoe burning and… a ridiculous autoattack, I can remember trying to prevent enemies help downed allies and they ignored me, using my #2 and #1 from FT. Nice.

The worst thing about #1 is that retalliation will crush you. Defending gates I like to throw flames to the enemies through the door, but most times I can only do it 2 times in a row before having to heal myself (I go with 18khp).

No, that’s not the worst, the worst is confussion. (Wait, Cyric, confussion only strikes you at the very first pulse, the other seconds not… Objection! Confussion strikes you every time your traits that triggers on crits, triggers. So, if you’re hitting 15 crits per second, having 3 traits that triggers like 30% on crit, you’re receiving an average of 15 tics of confussion damage per second, GG).

And, my last complaining goes for that stupid toolbelt skill. Ridiculous. I can’t understand what a developer thinks with “Oh yeah, 3 attacks per minute burns, like a baws, having a kit that burns at the finish of autoattacks, having a trait that burns 2 secons on crit with 30%, having the kit a skill that gives you an AoE burning. I’M A GENIOUS”.

I loved omnom on ft to mitigate confussion and retalliation… Now I’m rerolling to a Guardian.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

3) This is inferior in damage to Bomb and Grenade kit. This is a low skill and less damage version of those two kits. It really shouldn’t be a kit for people who can’t handle harder kits. Make it what it really should be: Point defense. Give skill 2 less damage and a knock back. Making this a mid range damage kit makes it inferior to other damage kits.

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

And what are the raw numbers you’re comparing? What do you mean by “less damage?” Is this with Berserker’s? Is this with Rampager’s? Rubies? Or Emeralds?

What sigils? Did you use Bloodlust and Strength and stack for Power like you’re supposed to when using the Flamethrower?

How did you use it? Did you just spam Flame Jet? Or did you drop Napalm for the 10% increase when Burning?

I main the FT/EG and have been for over four months now. And one thing has always proven relatively clear to me: the FT is not a kit you can just “test out” one afternoon. It took me weeks to really get the hang of it and get the right trait setup. You can’t just swap your gearing from the Grenade Kit and think you’re getting 1:1 out of it. I mean, you shouldn’t be, since the Grenade Kit requires stacking of both Condition Damage and Power—but the Flamethrower is raw Power.

More importantly, I always see people throw around how the Flamethrower does less damage, but is that single-target? AoE? Sustained? Burst? What number values are we talking about here?

You seem to be genuinely interested in testing the FT’s viability post patch, but you were awfully vague in your analysis. I’ll always agree that the Grenade Kit is a more powerful damage dealing kit than the Flamethrower is, but the extent to which it is never seems to crop up in conversation.

It’s not a night and day difference. With tankier survivability. With better control. And for how painfully obnoxious it is playing the Grenade Kit, I don’t think the minuscule—yes minuscule—difference in damage output is worth it.

I haven’t looked back in over 4 months now.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Flamethrower isn’t suppose to compete with Grenade or Bomb kit for damage.

Its strengths lie in its consistent damage output

Are you trying to say that grenade kit and bomb kit don’t have consistent damage output? Bomb kit DPS is just fine, it doesn’t fall off or burst.

In a game where dodges and positioning is important, anything that involves repeatedly channeling for 2 seconds and a requirement to face the enemy at all times better deal broken levels of damage. FT does not.

JohnDied.3476:

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it looks cool…

Great

I don’t think I could have said it better myself. You guys can close the thread now. This guy hit it on the head.

Phineas Poe.3018:

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

And what are the raw numbers you’re comparing? What do you mean by “less damage?” Is this with Berserker’s? Is this with Rampager’s? Rubies? Or Emeralds?

What sigils? Did you use Bloodlust and Strength and stack for Power like you’re supposed to when using the Flamethrower?

How did you use it? Did you just spam Flame Jet? Or did you drop Napalm for the 10% increase when Burning?

Challenge accepted. Here’s my numbers IN GAME:

This test was done vs the Heavy Armor Golem in PvP. All damage numbers are with critical hits ONLY. It is also the average critical hit.

Flame Jet: 1.8k direct 800 condition 2.4k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 2.3k blast 1k trail 3.3k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 700 condition 700 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 4k DPS.

Average Damage: 2.4k per 2 seconds

My set up:

Juggernaut and HGH (of course).
Elixir B H and U. Before every test I threw down and drank every elixir, giving me 17 might.
Sigil was of the Elementalist That gave me power and condition damage.
Carrion Amulet Giving power and condition damage

You mentioned in your post that Flamethrower is about power. So here’s the power version of this. This is using Scholars sigil and berzerkers amulet:

Flame Jet: 3.2k direct 500 condition 3.7k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 3.3k blast 1.4k trail 4.7k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 500 condition 500 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 5.2k DPS

Average damage: 3.7k -4k per 2 seconds

5.2k seems like a lot; however, here are the requirements:

1) They must be inside of Napalm
2) They must be hit by the trail of flame blast
3) They must be hit by the explosion of flame blast
4) You must get a critical with both the trail and explosion of flame blast

Here’s 100nades:

Jump Shot 4.3k direct 4.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Kit refinement) 5.3k direct 5.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Normal) 1.2k * 8 direct 9.6k damage

Static Discharge 1k direct 1k damage

Grenade 700 * 3 direct 2.1k damage

Shrapnel Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Freeze Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Max damage: 20.2k damage

Average Damage: 2.1k-2.5k per second

Phineas Poe.3018:

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

Excuse me, gentleman, but a kit is less powerfull than another when using the same build makes less damage. I mean, there’s only 1 trait that improves damage from FT (and is not Juggernaut, without counting the 6 stacks of might), the rest of traits can be applied at the same time to FT or Bomb kit. I love FT/EG build too, but when I go underwater I have bomb kit and I always see greater damage from bombs than from my FT. It’s true that #2 can do more damage, but the autoattack surely not. Also bomb kit’s toolbelt it’s nice and fun, compared with FT’s toolbelt.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Phineas Poe.3018:

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

And what are the raw numbers you’re comparing? What do you mean by “less damage?” Is this with Berserker’s? Is this with Rampager’s? Rubies? Or Emeralds?

What sigils? Did you use Bloodlust and Strength and stack for Power like you’re supposed to when using the Flamethrower?

How did you use it? Did you just spam Flame Jet? Or did you drop Napalm for the 10% increase when Burning?

Challenge accepted. Here’s my numbers IN GAME:

---

This test was done vs the Heavy Armor Golem in PvP. All damage numbers are with critical hits ONLY. It is also the average critical hit.

Flame Jet: 1.8k direct 800 condition 2.4k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 2.3k blast 1k trail 3.3k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 700 condition 700 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 4k DPS.

Average Damage: 2.4k per 2 seconds

My set up:

Juggernaut and HGH (of course).
Elixir B H and U. Before every test I threw down and drank every elixir, giving me 17 might.
Sigil was of the Elementalist That gave me power and condition damage.
Carrion Amulet Giving power and condition damage

---

You mentioned in your post that Flamethrower is about power. So here’s the power version of this. This is using Scholars sigil and berzerkers amulet:

Flame Jet: 3.2k direct 500 condition 3.7k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 3.3k blast 1.4k trail 4.7k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 500 condition 500 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 5.2k DPS

Average damage: 3.7k -4k per 2 seconds

5.2k seems like a lot; however, here are the requirements:

1) They must be inside of Napalm
2) They must be hit by the trail of flame blast
3) They must be hit by the explosion of flame blast
4) You must get a critical with both the trail and explosion of flame blast

---

Here’s 100nades:

Jump Shot 4.3k direct 4.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Kit refinement) 5.3k direct 5.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Normal) 1.2k * 8 direct 9.6k damage

Static Discharge 1k direct 1k damage

Grenade 700 * 3 direct 2.1k damage

Shrapnel Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Freeze Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Max damage: 20.2k damage

Average Damage: 2.1k-2.5k per second

Thank you for this. Excellent work.

Cyric.2854:

I loved omnom on ft to mitigate confussion and retalliation... Now I’m rerolling to a Guardian.

Fully agree with your whole post
And yes, I’ll do the same.

maybe, Engineers still have 1-2 viable builds for 1vs1 fights but for massive fights - sorry, Engineer now fully useless waste of the warband/buffs spot
And Guardian, D/D Elem (LOL, cloth user!!!!) or Warrior are faaaaar better than Engineer.

SilverWF.4789:

Cyric.2854:

I loved omnom on ft to mitigate confussion and retalliation… Now I’m rerolling to a Guardian.

Fully agree with your whole post
And yes, I’ll do the same.

As someone that also has a decked out Guardian … the grass is always greener on the other side.