Guild Wars 2

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obscure One.4357:

Elixir U isn’t “similar” to other Quickness skills, it literally is other Quickness skills.

Contemplation of Purity and Elixir C are the exact same skill. They do the exact same thing. Except one breaks stuns and the other doesn’t.

The question is: Why should Elixir U be a stunbreaker like other Quickness skills when it makes just as much sense for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker like all condition converter skills? As a skill that is useful as a stunbreaker for ALL situations, and not just “Oh, I’m going to get back up and punch that guy in the teeth!”

The biggest problem with leaving Elixir U as-is, is that it doesn’t cover the bases as well as Elixir R did when it operated as a stunbreaker. The only response to this I’ve gotten was “Elixir R was too good as a stunbreaker.”

No, it really wasn’t. And now without it, many elixir-spec Engineers are at a loss for wielding a proper stunbreaker in PvP. Elixir U just makes you take more damage than you were already suffering, and Elixir C makes you de-cap a capture point.

If Elixir C gave the Engineer Contemplation of Purity, they would be literally the same.

Again, whether or not Elixir C is a stun break is not relevant to the point as it and Contemplation of Purity are two different, albeit extremely similar skills, that should both produce a stun break and one does not.

An example: Warriors have apples, and thieves have pears. The Engineer gets a coin. On heads he gets an apple, on tails he gets a pear.

Perhaps Rangers get Bananas, Mesmers get Watermelon, and Guardians get Kiwis, but the Engineer only ever gets Apples or Pears…not Oranges, or Grapefruit, or Strawberries, just Apples or Pears of which he takes at random from the Warriors or Thieves.

If you’re thoughts are in removing a stun break from Elixir U, it’s the removal of the stun break from both Frenzy and Haste.

Yes, Obscure One, but…

When we use elixir U we don’t pull the resulting skill from the database of warrior/thief skills

It is pulled from the engie table.

So Poe’s suggestion is to alter what happens when the engie calls the skill, not to alter warrior or thief skills.

nakoda.4213:

Yes, Obscure One, but…

When we use elixir U we don’t pull the resulting skill from the database of warrior/thief skills

It is pulled from the engie table.

So Poe’s suggestion is to alter what happens when the engie calls the skill, not to alter warrior or thief skills.

This would require an overhaul of the skill to become Engineer specific and not grant the utility of another class as it does now. This would notably be an unnecessary overhaul of the skill might I add as what it does now it directly balanced against other Classes options…by literally having that same option.

Removing the stun break could therefore only be justified if the skills that form the base for Elixir U are equally reduced. Otherwise the skill no longer grants Frenzy nor Haste as designed and is therefore imbalanced in direct association to both Frenzy and Haste.

There is presently no mechanical substitute for a stun break, so essentially what were discussing is needlessly nerfing Elixir U (much in the way Elixir R was nerfed) just for the sake of having a stun breaker elsewhere. To that, I can’t comment to such ideas of attempting to create balance and equity by using imbalance and inequity, but retain my previous stance that Elixir U is Frenzy or Haste, and should behave as such.

We don’t have “the same option”, though. We have one of them at random, and that’s exactly the problem. One that isn’t solved by a 10s lower cooldown.
Also, we’re talking about skills tailored to different classes, forcibly transposed into an engineer skill.
A warrior has got heavy armour and hp. And he knows he will get hurt more in exchange for an higher dps. Still, he will be able to dodge if needed.
Thieves are more squishy, sure. But they can work around the endurance penalty via evades (inbuilt into some attacks) and eventually, if needed, stealth.
We haven’t got neither heavy armor, high hp or evades and the only reliable stealth we can get is via combo fields. And neither we can know the drawback in advance. And both of them can be quite situational. But whereas warriors and thieves know beforehand what they will get, thus being able to use them in the correct situation, we must pray to the rng to not get the wrong drawback.

TL;DR: drawbacks tailored for different situations and rng together don’t go well.

Manuhell.2759:

We don’t have “the same option”, though. We have one of them at random, and that’s exactly the problem. One that isn’t solved by a 10s lower cooldown.
Also, we’re talking about skills tailored to different classes, forcibly transposed into an engineer skill.
A warrior has got heavy armour and hp. And he knows he will get hurt more in exchange for an higher dps. Still, he will be able to dodge if needed.
Thieves are more squishy, sure. But they can work around the endurance penalty via evades (inbuilt into some attacks) and eventually, if needed, stealth.
We haven’t got neither heavy armor, high hp or evades and the only reliable stealth we can get is via combo fields. And neither we can know the drawback in advance. And both of them can be quite situational. But whereas warriors and thieves know beforehand what they will get, thus being able to use them in the correct situation, we must pray to the rng to not get the wrong drawback.

TL;DR: drawbacks tailored for different situations and rng together don’t go well.

When accounted for properly in a build Elixir U’s detrimental effects can be dealt with just as any other person who intelligently uses Frenzy or Haste can compensate as I have previously mentioned. Warriors cannot gain protection when stunned, and Thieves cannot easily gain a permanent upkeep on vigor, Engineers do both, allowing passive reduction of Elixir U’s detrimental effects.

Just as you wouldn’t trait coated bullets in your rifle build, you also wouldn’t neglect traiting for what you are built for, Elixir U is no exception.

So basically, while those other classes can deal with the drawbacks simply because they are tailored for them, you would say that the possibility of traiting specifically to reduce the random drawbacks given by that single skill makes it good and fine?

Manuhell.2759:

So basically, while those other classes can deal with the drawbacks simply because they are tailored for them, you would say that the possibility of traiting specifically to reduce the random drawbacks given by that single skill makes it good and fine?

That’s a loaded question.

No class is tailored for any skill other than it’s class mechanic skills, I.E. Burst Skills, Tool Belt Skills, Steal, Shatter Skills, Pet Commands, Death Shroud, etc., and Elite Skills. Frenzy is not tailored for any and all Warrior builds, nor is Haste tailored for any and all Thief builds. You cannot judge every build of a class equally, and as such no skill within the class is tailored for it. The class instead offers skills as options that you, the player, may tailor for; not vise versa.

Any combination of thief weapons has either got blinds, shadowsteps or evades. And if those go wrong, they will still have means to stealth. They have alternate means of defending themselves even with their endurance drained, and that’s by design.
Warriors have got better base hp and armor than engineers. So even if they take more damage with frenzy, they are still relatively sturdy to begin with.
Both of them have got drawbacks pertinent to the class itself, and that’s without counting skills or traits, despite what you can say about that. Heh, frenzy was also a GW1 skill of the warrior, even if the drawback was more severe.
And beside that they still know the drawback beforehand, while we must act on the moment.

Obscure One.4357:

Warriors cannot gain protection when stunned, and Thieves cannot easily gain a permanent upkeep on vigor, Engineers do both, allowing passive reduction of Elixir U’s detrimental effects.

You’re assuming that players always take those traits. They don’t.

And you assume that everyone should be happy with Elixir U because it works in your build. The fact is: you’re talking about a niche situation. Elixir U is workable as a retaliatory skill, but when I’m playing a bunker that’s hardly what I want. But unless I feel like de-capping the node I’m making every point to defend by popping Elixir S, that is really my only option as an elixir-spec Engineer.

I’m basically forced to use gadgets or the Elixir Gun as a legitimate stunbreaker, which is quite frankly unacceptable to me, because nothing about those gadgets or the Elixir Gun appeals to me in sPvP. A Warrior has the choice of running Frenzy or not. Elixir U is basically my only option right now, and it’s an unsatisfactory one.

Obscure One.4357:

If you’re thoughts are in removing a stun break from Elixir U, it’s the removal of the stun break from both Frenzy and Haste.

You say that like Elixir U was always a stunbreaker.

It wasn’t. It was made a stunbreaker, and then ArenaNet felt like elixirs had too many—so they took one off Elixir R. You don’t find that aggravating?

Manuhell.2759:

Any combination of thief weapons has either got blinds, shadowsteps or evades. And if those go wrong, they will still have means to stealth. They have alternate means of defending themselves even with their endurance drained, and that’s by design.
Warriors have got better base hp and armor than engineers. So even if they take more damage with frenzy, they are still relatively sturdy to begin with.
Both of them have got drawbacks pertinent to the class itself, and that’s without counting skills or traits, despite what you can say about that. Heh, frenzy was also a GW1 skill of the warrior, even if the drawback was more severe.
And beside that they still know the drawback beforehand, while we must act on the moment.

You apply the concept of gestalt class design to other classes yet preclude the Engineer without a basis. The Engineer class, as a whole, provides the player the ability to tailor its build to the skills they so choose to use just as other classes provide options to do so. Having a native higher armor rating and health pool for Warriors does not make them any more tailored for Frenzy than an Engineer. Not accounting for the variation of how classes function, or vary in how they are optimal, can ever be the basis for a valid argument in this regard. Engineers can compensate and successfully build for using Frenzy and Haste passively, or accept it as a weakness and compensate for it actively with their play-style.

I could easily list the great many things an Engineer can do that a Warrior cannot, but that would be unnecessary as the disparity between the classes is broad and obvious. The same could also be said of the Thief. Ultimately one cannot formulate a comparison without factoring in the trade-offs each class makes for something like a native high armor and hit point total, such as the inability to provide volumes of boons which include aegis and protection, have as many as 8 blast finishers back-to-back on a single bar, make water-fields to do all that blasting in, have a 3 second block, have a 2 second block that stuns, drop projectile blocking wall spells…oops! there I go listing the great many things Engineers can do that Warriors can’t as compensation for a disparity in native armor and hit points. Guess I couldn’t resist in the end.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obscure One.4357:

If you’re thoughts are in removing a stun break from Elixir U, it’s the removal of the stun break from both Frenzy and Haste.

You say that like Elixir U was always a stunbreaker.

It wasn’t. It was made a stunbreaker, and then ArenaNet felt like elixirs had too many—so they took one off Elixir R. You don’t find that aggravating?

Elixir U was made a stun-breaker due to exact reason I’m defending it being a stun breaker. It was imbalanced compared to the skills it provided, then became balanced, and I do not want a backslide in that regard. Arena Net noted a design flaw and fixed it. Notably the Elixir R nerf came LONG after.

As for Elixir R, I find it absolutely absurd that they removed the stun-breaker and basically made two Elixirs I’ll never use instead of just Elixir C. To not derail the thread into a conversation about how !@#$ing stupid that move was, I’ll just say I think both Elixir C and Elixir R, if not stun breaks, need some other incentive to slot them on the skill bar. Now more than ever with the recent buff to Rocket Boots demanding that it’s replacement be equally epic in a way neither the underwhelming Elixir C or R currently are.

Obscure One.4357:

Ultimately one cannot formulate a comparison without factoring in the trade-offs each class makes for something like a native high armor and hit point total, such as the inability to provide volumes of boons which include aegis and protection, have as many as 8 blast finishers back-to-back on a single bar, make water-fields to do all that blasting in, have a 3 second block, have a 2 second block that stuns, drop projectile blocking wall spells…oops! there I go listing the great many things Engineers can do that Warriors can’t as compensation for a disparity in native armor and hit points. Guess I couldn’t resist in the end.

My Warrior gives Fury, Might, and Vigor on top of buffing allies with an additional 150 Power, 170 Precision, and 10% Critical Damage. I’d say he buffs people just fine.

I also hate to break it to you, but Warriors do have access to plenty of Protection and Aegis. Quick Breathing gives me Protection every time I cleanse Vulnerability and Aegis any time I cleanse Burning. From either Call to Arms or Charge.

And it gives them to allies, too.

Also: Warriors have access to blocks too, and can reflect projectiles with Missile Deflection.

Warrior is the ultimate PvE Hero. Crazy you’d even brag about what Engineer can do.

Rocket Booty.

Phineas Poe.3018:

My Warrior gives Fury, Might, and Vigor on top of buffing allies with an additional 150 Power, 170 Precision, and 10% Critical Damage. I’d say he buffs people just fine.

I also hate to break it to you, but Warriors do have access to plenty of Protection and Aegis. Quick Breathing gives me Protection every time I cleanse Vulnerability and Aegis any time I cleanse Burning. From either Call to Arms or Charge.

And it gives them to allies, too.

Also: Warriors have access to blocks too, and can reflect projectiles with Missile Deflection.

Warrior is the ultimate PvE Hero. Crazy you’d even brag about what Engineer can do.

You’re absolutely right. You give up X to gain Y.

That build would never use Frenzy, nor would my Support Engineer build ever use Elixir U.

I think you see the point. When built for, skills are equally viable for each class and not contingent on native armor or hp, but upon build choice. Your Warrior support build, against an Engineer support build is not relevant to Frenzy as both give up offense for defense. Sure I can grant Fury, Might (ALOT of might), and Vigor, cleanse conditions, grant boons, and reflect missiles with my Warrior, but my Engineer can provide a 7 fold knock-back chain that’re blast finishers in a water field, a fire field, or a smoke field however the mood may strike me.

How many Frenzy builds are there in which you take Quick Breathing, Missile Deflection, and Vigorous Shouts? Conversely how many Accelerant Packed, Deployable turret builds (like the one I described) have we seen use Elixir U?

Answer: a number equal to the number of bad Frenzy and Elixir U builds.

Obscure One.4357:

That build would never use Frenzy

That build does use Frenzy. Just because I have a Warhorn that doesn’t mean that I am a “support” Warrior. I still take full advantage of the Warrior’s DPS slotting the majority of my points into Strength and Discipline wearing full Berserker gear. I wield an Axe along with my Warhorn and use a Greatsword as the secondary set.

I tried 30/0/0/10/30 and hated it. Heightened Focus really wasn’t that huge a boost to my DPS compared to shedding conditions with 20 Tactics—a distribution that allows me to make the most out of my Bow when necessary as well. And because of the Warhorn’s condition removal, I can freely take skills like Frenzy over Shake It Off.

I don’t disagree with you that Frenzy isn’t optimal in all situations though, and I think that could naturally be extended to Elixir U. You found a build that utilizes it. You acknowledge that a support/bunker Engineer in sPvP has no use for it—but that is precisely the line of thinking that drove me to author this thread.

It makes no sense why Elixir U “should be” a stunbreaker except for the reason that Haste/Frenzy/Quickening Zephyr are; yet as others have already illustrated, those classes can effectively work around their drawbacks. And by much the same logic, regardless of how literally you wish to take it, the same conclusions could be easily made of Elixir C and its nonexistence as a stunbreaker.

It’s something that would be an easy fix to a simple problem for bunker Engineers right now in PvP, especially since Elixir C is at many times mandatory these days against any group that has more than one Necromancer. I’m glad you found a build that utilizes Elixir U as a stunbreaker, but I need you to accept that you are a part of a very small minority of Engineers that actually bother using the skill at all in PvP. Ask all the top-ranked PvP Engis. I can guarantee you none of them use it.