Guild Wars 2

Whatever the original intention behind making kits bundles (mechanically) and not weapons seems to be the crux of the auto-attack, sigils and weapon stats not working for them and as its been 3 BWE and 3 weeks into launch with no sign of a fix its obviously a difficulty issue.

Can’t we just have kits treated like the elementalist’s attunements* where all the above problems do not exist?

• I don’t mean from a player’s PoV, kits should still be a utility choice and we should still have the toolbelt, I just mean behind-the-scenes treat kits like the attunments as far as making them a ‘subset’ of the currently equipped weaponset; abilities would still be the same, but they would then pull their damage stats from the current weaponset rather than the baked in stats they now have, should fix autoattack and sigils as well (especially as most (all?) sigils for ‘on weapon swap’ have an internal cooldown already).

That’s a solution indeed.

Hope it happens sometime this year.

Kithzyan.5034:

I don’t mean from a player’s PoV

Personally, I think it would be awesome to have kits as weapons you find, buy and sell, even if it were a single “Utility Kit” weapon that affected all kits. Then you could even opt to forgo kits entirely and go pistols/rifle if you wanted. Heck, craft different ‘styles’ and it can double for the race-specific turret/etc skins people want (and turret damage too). I know I’d be much more interested in crafting a Legendary weapon for my engineer if it was one I’d actually use for something other than rifle 5 for jumping puzzles.

No, please no.

If they make kits weapons, then we are going to eventually get nerfed to only be able to use 1-2 at a time and have the normal weapon swap cooldown.

That would basically rip out a large amount of the versatility I love in my engineer.

draculthemad.6273:

No, please no.

If they make kits weapons, then we are going to eventually get nerfed to only be able to use 1-2 at a time and have the normal weapon swap cooldown.

That would basically rip out a large amount of the versatility I love in my engineer.

They have indicated that they want to fix the auto attacks, and to make sigils affect kits.

You have no say about it, its simply a matter of Arenanet being competent enough to make the fixes, and time for when they do make them.

Agree

I love get weapons and upgrades for each build, and the lack of sigil or stats with kits feels terrible to me.

I loved when they show the engineer they said is a multi-tak class with great pre-planification gameplay, but now only with rifles, pistol and shield without stat affect kit i feel that onlly have to get 1 weapon.

And if that you add only 1 skin to each weapon kit but feels that if you like collect weapons to different builds…..

I dont mind that the kits still work like a utility skill, but it would be great that at least the weapons stats/sigils will affect them, or that you can have more skins to get, buying for karma, gold or drop.

I feel sad when im talkign with my friends and they tell things like " hey we have go to X dungeon to get X weapons " etc….. they have a lot of different weapons ( stats and skin ) to get, and we like using kits we lacked skins, stats and sigils. Its feel like a punishment only for using my skills system class.

Engineer is my favourite class but if the “issues” with kits, and the randomness of Elixir continues ( want to buff allies -> toss elixir-> have a totally different build-> Wait long CD-> problem :trollface: ??? ) , i think that is the only support who cant have a steady way to buff allyes, only toss elixirs with 1 boon each one, long CDs and with a 66% chance that happen things that you dont want.

im thinking starting a Guardian, i always want a support multitask character like the Engineer and i love the design and the crazy tools , but the system class skills are ruinning, too randomness, lack of different gear to get, im just motivated righ now to get armors i dont care for the weapons when i have 1 rifle, 1 shield and 1 pistol.

I don’t have any problem with sigils and such affecting kits.

I simply do not want the existing kit mechanic removed in order to make kits into equipped items, with the limitations of the weapon swap mechanic.

Kits used to have a cooldown just like weapons swap in beta, and it was extremely frustrating. GW2 kindly removed that cooldown, and the result is a sharp increase in versatility.

Its what makes the Engineer class worth playing at the moment.

draculthemad.6273:

I don’t have any problem with sigils and such affecting kits.

I simply do not want the existing kit mechanic removed in order to make kits into equipped items, with the limitations of the weapon swap mechanic.

Kits used to have a cooldown just like weapons swap in beta, and it was extremely frustrating. GW2 kindly removed that cooldown, and the result is a sharp increase in versatility.

Its what makes the Engineer class worth playing at the moment.

Strawman argument.

No one is saying that making kits have properties of weapons would make them have the cooldown of weapons.

And guess what… when kits had a 5s cooldown, and speedy kits reduced it to 1s… kits were the exact same as they are now mechanically. So, your argument about cooldowns is just scaremongering.

And don’t forget, kits cost a utility slot, engineers lose one for equipping a kit. Its not like engineers would get a weapon swap on a 1s cooldown compared to the 10s cooldown of everyone else, instead they would get one on a 1s cooldown AND at the cost of a utility slot. Utility slots are big deals you know.

I should also add, that only one set of sigils would work since the one on the weapon would be applied onward.

So, engineer with proper kits would have, compared to everyone else:

1s cooldown
Only one set of sigils
Loss of a utility slot.

That seems like a very fair trade off to me. Losing both a utility slot, and choice in sigils, in exchange for having access to a short cooldown weapon.

draculthemad.6273:

No, please no.

If they make kits weapons, then we are going to eventually get nerfed to only be able to use 1-2 at a time and have the normal weapon swap cooldown.

That would basically rip out a large amount of the versatility I love in my engineer.

Please read posts in their entirety before making knee-jerk reaction posts. The OP clearly said “not from the player’s perspective” and explained that he means they should be weapons internally, the same way elementalist attunements work.

If you responding to me on the other hand, I clearly suggested all kits, turrets, etc be covered by a single unqiue weapon type.

Neither of these suggestions would in any way effect the usage of kits as utility skills at all.

I wouldn’t are if our weapons stats and sigils effected kits, as long as the kits themselves had the equivalent benefits built into them to supplement them.

To address 2 of the comments:

Coglin: The problem with that is it’d still require interaction with our weapon (or overall gear) stats to properly give us equivalent benefits. If not, where do you set it? Are kits = to exotics off the bat at 80 which gives us a free headstart, or are they equal to rare/masterwork (which is roughly where they are now) in which case we fall behind once everyone has exotics; the easiest way to fix is to simply pull the stats off the currently equipped weapon (also allows sigil use as well as i’m pretty sure nearly everybody has a different opinion on what the best 1-2 sigils to use are).

To the few saying they don’t want mechanics to change: That was the point of the clarification in the OP, I don’t mean for there to be -any- mechanical changes from a player’s perspective other than the bugs on auto-attack, sigils, stats etc being fixed. From what I recall reading and the way they currently work, kits are considered bundles (from a code perspective) and are treated like any other bundle you can pick up in the game world. Counter to this are elementalist attunements, they are still “subset weapon skills” (like how our kits appear to us), but use a seperate code mechanism to display themselves that -does- allow autoattack, stats, etc to function. I’m simply asking for that code to be ported over to Engi’s to give us the same benefits without the troubles we currently have, nothing like cooldown or number of choices is intended to be affected, purely the behind-the-scenes mechanism to make it work.

I can think of plenty of other changes i’d love to see on Engi (a non-gtaoe #1 for grenade kit on land would be my first :P) but fixing the kit/bundle thing I think is most important, especially as we can’t be properly balanced at the moment until its fixed as stat scaling, sigils and even just not having to stop and CTRL+Click every few seconds would drastically alter our DPS potential.

I agree and I can’t wait for the developers to address these well known issues.

It seems however the two kits with the most controversy are the auto-attack and targeting options on the grenade and bomb kits. I would love to here the developer’s stance on these to kits.

‘You cannot drop bundles while in the air’?

Why, for kitten’s sake, why can’t I?

Just having them factored by your equipped weapon would be the ideal solution. If they were to make them weapons you could only have two ‘weapons’ like everyone else, and if they did attunements there’d be a lengthy cooldown there as well.

• Fix kit auto-attack
• Allow main-hand sigil to apply to kit
• Weapon-swapping sigil on main-hand should apply to any kit as well. (on a 9 or 10 second CD)
• Main-hand and off-hand weapon stats should apply to kit
• Kits should continue to not have CDs beyond the 1 second GCD

Shimond.2478:

Just having them factored by your equipped weapon would be the ideal solution. If they were to make them weapons you could only have two ‘weapons’ like everyone else, and if they did attunements there’d be a lengthy cooldown there as well.

Thats the whole point of what i’m trying to suggest :P We wouldn’t have ‘only two weapon’s nor would we have attunment cooldowns, those are both balancing issues not coding issues. Its how our kits are represented by the game code itself, that is, as bundles which is what causes all the sigl/auto-attack/stat problems, nothing -needs- to be changed as far as how kits are equipped in utility slots with no cooldowns etc etc to change them to ‘attunements’ from a code viewpoint. I’m simply using elementalist attunments as the nearest similar system to how I think kits should work as they show that subsets of a weaponset can exist in the GW2 codebase that pull stats from the primary weapon.

Nyota.7062:

‘You cannot drop bundles while in the air’?

Why, for kitten’s sake, why can’t I?

Many dropped bundles leave a shiney behind when dropped, if you could drop them in the air it would cause the shiney to be floating and look bad or glitch; this just goes to my point that kits shouldn’t be bundles being that we don’t leave our toys behind when we switch them (would be kinda messy if we did…).

weapon kits have a base damage of 967

Exotic rifle is 1205
Exotic pistol is 1025
Exotic staff is 1111.

This is important because the “attack” stat is a lie. Attack is NOT power+weapon damage. If that were true, the variance in weapon damage wouldn’t be so big a deal.
However it is not.
Attack damage is: power TIMES weapon damage. (specifically, (skill coeff * weapon damage * power/916)
Therefor, every point of power is 15% stronger for an elementalist with an exotic staff.

15% is no joke.

No, leave them as bundles. I don’t want the same limitations on them as other weapons. I want to continue to quick swap, etc.

That is a silly thing to assume OxBaker.

Why would that happen? Arenanet have already said they wanted to fix most of the issues, which are caused by them being kits.

I take it you are against auto attacks on kits? Sigils on kits? Access to stats? Access to ‘on swap’ sigils?

Because if you are for any of these, then changes need to be made.
And arenanet have indicated that at least two of those should be fixed.

And where did you get the idea that they would have the same limitations of weapons? No one is saying that at all, its just scaremongering from your part. They would still remember, cost a utility slot and you would not have individual sigils on the kits, just the one applied to it. So there would still be many limitations that weapons don’t share, with the benefit of having shorter swapping times.

They should make kits “atunements” with the base cd equal to that of the current kit swap delay.

Orson.8034:

They should make kits “atunements” with the base cd equal to that of the current kit swap delay.

…you want to trade 38 of our skills in order to copy the class mechanic of another class, only less so and with a faster swap?

Um, no thanks.

Weirwynn.2390:

Orson.8034:

They should make kits “atunements” with the base cd equal to that of the current kit swap delay.

…you want to trade 38 of our skills in order to copy the class mechanic of another class, only less so and with a faster swap?

Um, no thanks.

Never said that.
The issue is that “bundles” have auto attack disabled and don’t scale based on weapon stats.
“Attunements” swap the skill bar while scaling off of the equipped weapon and have variable swap cooldown.
If the developers switched the kits from “bundles” to “attunements” and set the engineer attunement cooldown to equal the bundle cooldown the kit stats will be directly correlated to the weapon stats.

It is a type change that is being suggested, not a mechanics change.
Depending on how they set up the type code and how they did the traits it would have the potential to be the quickest fix…. you bookah

Weirwynn.2390:

Orson.8034:

They should make kits “atunements” with the base cd equal to that of the current kit swap delay.

…you want to trade 38 of our skills in order to copy the class mechanic of another class, only less so and with a faster swap?

Um, no thanks.

…The hell did you read that? Nobody ever said anything about trading away our skills.

Kits are currently bundles. The elementalist’s attunements, mechanically, have the exact same benefits as bundles, but without all the bugs and lost stats. It wouldn’t look or sound like an attunement, it would just work like one, which is to say it would work -correctly-.

No, I would rather let Anet fix it their way.

It is laughable to read how everyone pretends to have a clue about how the game is coded, and tell us how it needs to be fixed.

I’d agree that the Engineer’s weapon kits should use the stats of our equipped weapon, or any other way that makes its stats customizable. I for one focuses mostly on my grenade for DPS and is indeed disappointed that my attack drops every time I switched to it. (On another hand, it may be useful for lower levels since you can be using level 1 weapon but yet the weapon kit stats scale to your level).

Also, a good fix would be for auto attack on weapon kits upon equip, including the grenade kit despite being aoe. Despite enabling fast cast ground targeting, it is still a pain to keep spamming my 1 button every single encounter.

But I’d have to disagree that weapon kits be made into individual weapons just because they took up a slot in our utility. Our class mechanic toolbelt skill more than makes up for the lack of utility slots, unless of course you are running with 3 turrets build which pretty much inefficiently clogs up your toolbelt everytime you deploy turrets.

Equipped with elixirs, I am enabled 2 elixirs conferring either the same function or different useful functions. With elixir C, i’d usually clear conditions into boons with my toolbelt, and the one on the utility slot doubles a an emergency use – 2 skills, 2 separate cooldowns for the slot of 1! With elixir R, the toolbelt revive brings so much to teamplay whilst the utility part of it brings good survivability on yourself.

When playing on another class(thief and guardian), I just find their utility skills lacking especially with the usual high cooldown that comes with most of them. Also, the cooldown for swapping between kits and weapon is negligible, bringing the option of constant swapping so much more versatile, compared to another class that although enabled weapon swappings, the cooldown that comes with it usually means you can only swap once or twice in a normal encounter.

Strifer.3507:

But I’d have to disagree that weapon kits be made into individual weapons just because they took up a slot in our utility. Our class mechanic toolbelt skill more than makes up for the lack of utility slots, unless of course you are running with 3 turrets build which pretty much inefficiently clogs up your toolbelt everytime you deploy turrets.

Please read the OP, I, and nobody who has supported it, wants our kits to actually -be- weapons with all the attached limitations, we just want the behind-the-scenes mechanics to work differently from how they now do so as to fix the sigil/stat/auto-attack issues. Nothing (other than the bugs being fixed) should change from -our- point of view, i’m just putting forth a suggestion that the whole ‘kits are bundles’ thing be changed as its apparent now that making them work properly while still being bundles is a big problem to fix (3 BWE + a month after release, its not a quick fix thats for sure).

… and my 1 key is getting mushy due to my love of tri-wielding kits.

And put a cooldown on kits? If they did that, I’d delete my engineer immediately. One of the most powerful things about the engineer is that we can swap kits so often.

Irascible.8210:

And put a cooldown on kits? If they did that, I’d delete my engineer immediately. One of the most powerful things about the engineer is that we can swap kits so often.

Find me a single quote that says the would put a cooldown on kits.

Nowhere has anyone said this. Nowhere.

Its simply about using the MECHANICS of weapons, but the same BALANCE of kits.

Balance=/=Mechanics.

Weapons are one thing, but balance is another. It is because of balance that they have a 10s cooldown. Arenanet can make all weapons have a 10000000 hour cooldown, or a 1s one.

Its their choice, but its still weapons.