Guild Wars 2

As ridiculous as the grenade nerf was, all I wanted was to understand the madness that drove the decision. I found the class philosophy summaries, and it really feels like all of them were written by different people.

The engineer one says: The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

That makes sense, to a point. Versatility at the cost of damage is not a new concept of balance in RPGs. Except grenades are not a main hand weapon, they are part of kits that the engineer is encouraged to use. That alone contradicts the nerf. But what completely undermines this explanation is the elementalist’s summary.

It says: We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.

It is, then, a class that offers even more versatility than the engineer. The logical next step would be to assume that ele’s damage should be inferior still. Yet somehow the opposite applies; they can apparently dish out ‘great AoE damage’, while the only mention of damage in the engineer paragraph says he has to give it up for versatility.

Whoever wrote the engineer paragraph seems conveniently ignorant of the fact, that, y’know, the game offers the possibility of builds. If I want to build my engineer for versatility, then that should gimp my damage. If I want to build my engineer for damage, then that should gimp my versatility. No profession in the game should rely on gear or (especially) sigils to be effective. I thought ArenaNet clearly stated many times before that the game is skill-based, not gear-based?

Well, I’ve been thinking this for a while, but this patch just confirms it, whoever is in charge of balance and design for the engineer is a kittening clueless kitten with kittens for brains with his head so far up his kitten he’ll never see the light of day.

I honestly do not understand how someone can fail so badly to recognize such completely obvious contradictions and so blatantly screw over one class.

Ulfnar.8317:

whoever is in charge of balance and design for the engineer is a kittening clueless kitten with kittens for brains with his head so far up his kitten he’ll never see the light of day

This is the best thing I’ve read all week.

This patch has some serious problem in it.

First, credit where its due. The art team did an amazing job, stuff looks fantastic. They’ve added a whole bunch of new items and skins aswell, you can argue wether you like it or not, but the theme is spot on. Jumping puzzle looks gorgeous aswell.

Great work from the guys from events aswell, atleast so far. Fun events, and they are doing things a bit different based on community feedback. great work.

Music, great aswell. I love it and ive actually turned my music back on (untill i get bored of hearing it the 254th time)

But whoever was on class balance did a kittenty job. And whoever was behind the WvW “updates” did an equally poor job.
And for many its the crap from the latter that overshadow the good work from the former. This event, and this patch will forever leave a sour taste in my mouth. As that patch where Arenanet demonstrated how little they understand WvW and their own professions. As illustrated by the class changes, class descriptions and WvW updates.

Whoever wrote the engineer paragraph seems conveniently ignorant of the fact, that, y’know, the game offers the possibility of builds. If I want to build my engineer for versatility, then that should gimp my damage. If I want to build my engineer for damage, then that should gimp my versatility.

I really want to highlight this bit as something that should be taken notice of. The current design philosophy behind engineers is awful, based on that description, and will only ever lead to them being lacklustre in every area.

I don’t know if it’s all self-contradictory or not.

What I do know is that as it stands it seems like Anet considered engineer players to be people who crave “sidekick” style gameplay: “Sure thing boss whatever you don’t got I’ll cover. And that nice emo guy you’re with? He can handle the healing I guess he’s way better at clearing conditions anyways… I’ll just shore up what you two can’t do. And if your friend Thiefy McGankerstein is around she can handle the big numbers…” Which is a valid design decision, but fundamentally one I don’t like or want to play.

The only reason Murtaguh is around is to occasionally give Riggs a comedic foil and keep him from going over the edge, and to be a warm body holding a gun in some scenes. Maybe there are some people out there who’d like to play Murtaugh, but I’d rather play Riggs (or Riggs hurling a fireball).

My only decision now is do I delete my engineer or keep him in stasis or fully delete him. I in the interim, I won’t play a sidekick.

^It does feel like we are playing as a sidekick now.
A kittening idiot sidekick…
I feel so stupid for leveling an Engineer to 80 now. I can’t wait until my non-sidekick characters (guardian and warrior) are lvl 80.
How many people out there after leveling another class thought: “Man I need to switch back to my Engineer because this sucks.”

Playing elementalist and mesmer at the moment. Both classes are tremendously more fun than the Engineer is in it’s current state. Won’t touch my engie for a while I’m afraid…

The fact that we give up versatility (utility skills) to gain versatility (kits) should be enough of a balance. Using that as a reason to lower our damage output is just illogical.

Something to consider with balance is not just what skills each class has but also the armor and hp pool each class has to draw from. Ele’s have the lightest armor and the smallest hp pool in the game.
Now, I’m not too happy about the grenade change, but I don’t think one can draw comparisons based on ‘versatitlity’ of skills alone.

What I think would be nice is if we could carve out our own little niche. I think explosives and knockback might be the key. Explosives aren’t all that exciting (especially in light of the current patch) but knock back can be fun as hell. I’d like to see the devs focus a bit on this aspect and help define this class little better. IE- Big Ol Bomb. What Engie doesn’t love this skill?!?

Personal Battering Ram- begs to be better.
Throw mine – in a pretty good place except the tool belt skill.
Thumper- bring down that tool belt and the overcharge cd.
Rocket boots could be designed into a kind of knockback/blowout.

I think Engies are a great addition to this game, we just need a little more definition/ rounding out.

Rocket boots need to be morphed into one skill with its toolbelt skill, a high-flying burning kick to the face or, it needs to replace overcharge shot, where you kick them in the face and the rockets blow their kittening face off.

Anyways, yes, this patch was absolutely horrid to the engineer, and the way everything was worded was pretty kittening close to complete betrayal to everything the engineer is, and everyone that loved the concept. I felt like I was throwing handfuls of firecrackers before, now Im throwing sparklers for crying out loud, why?!?! It would have been far better to drop grenades thrown to 1 and make grenadier deal +50% more damage(so same dmg as all 2-3 grenades pre patch) +range or have a 10-25% chance for a random grenade thrown additionally.

Mighty Favazz.1546:

Something to consider with balance is not just what skills each class has but also the armor and hp pool each class has to draw from. Ele’s have the lightest armor and the smallest hp pool in the game.
Now, I’m not too happy about the grenade change, but I don’t think one can draw comparisons based on ‘versatitlity’ of skills alone.

What I think would be nice is if we could carve out our own little niche. I think explosives and knockback might be the key. Explosives aren’t all that exciting (especially in light of the current patch) but knock back can be fun as hell. I’d like to see the devs focus a bit on this aspect and help define this class little better. IE- Big Ol Bomb. What Engie doesn’t love this skill?!?

Personal Battering Ram- begs to be better.
Throw mine – in a pretty good place except the tool belt skill.
Thumper- bring down that tool belt and the overcharge cd.
Rocket boots could be designed into a kind of knockback/blowout.

I think Engies are a great addition to this game, we just need a little more definition/ rounding out.

I really hate being one to qq over a game, but this is so true. Don’t get me wrong sigils for kits is awesome ( I think this should’ve been done in beta, but whatever). BUT who really thought HGH was bad to begin with? There are so many other traits and skills in such bad shape its ridiculous

Linc.6834:

BUT who really thought HGH was bad to begin with? There are so many other traits and skills in such bad shape its ridiculous

I did, I do. It’s still terrible. It’s just a gimmick then, and it’s only slightly less so now. If it gave might and protection, that might be something. Might and regen? Might be something. But just additional might? Gimmick.

I’m not one for complaining or posting much at all but I’m seriously frustrated with the Elementalist philosophy in comparison to our own. How about you give us the choice like you give every other class? I understand the “Sidekick” idea, but I want to know why everyone can play the sidekick and still have options to be the Hero if they want, while we don’t?

I’ve never given up on a class before, but i’m seriously thinking of playing an Ele, because apparently if I want true versatility that’s the direction I need to head. Its extremely unfortunate as I really like the feel of the class: gadgets are a lot of fun, Tool Kit in WvW is super fun, elixirs are boring but effective, BUT I don’t know how long I can play a class that isn’t afforded the option to be really good at something just for the sake of apparent versatility.

Without comments as to ANET’s writers of the respective original posting, (which is such an illegitimate suggestion by this thread), I too read the ele summary. And the other summaries too. What’s obvious is that a ton of people enjoy playing thief and warrior and stick to what I’d call a linear strategy gameplay . . . Which can be very satisfying when you can take that health-bar down fast with style.

On the contrary ranged/caster classes have a different feel in this game than other RPGs, and engi really is unique for any classification, which is why I love it. I think the gist of ANET’s suggestion in their philosophy is this: people are more apt to play Ele than Engi for the caster/range class. Nothing wrong with encouraging some more exploration in the game: players who stick strictly to thief or warrior may miss out on that, and those who want to check out the casting, ranged side of things, DO IT.

(ED: I welcome playing up the ele class if it gets a bit more population playing it rather than the more overplayed classes. honestly people will switch to ele before they will switch to engi)

MentalPause.9183:

I’ve never given up on a class before, but i’m seriously thinking of playing an Ele, because apparently if I want true versatility that’s the direction I need to head. Its extremely unfortunate as I really like the feel of the class: gadgets are a lot of fun, Tool Kit in WvW is super fun, elixirs are boring but effective, BUT I don’t know how long I can play a class that isn’t afforded the option to be really good at something just for the sake of apparent versatility.

This patch was the straw that broke the charr engineer’s back, for me. I have immensely enjoyed the engineer in the beta. Yeah, it had many flaws at the time and a lot of people complained about it, but I stood by the profession regardless. I invested in the game, I trusted the developers. Things were looking up for the engineer at first, like the dreadful mine kit being changed to a lovely skill that benefited both the engineer and his allies. But then Lost Shores happened. I have hardly played the game since then, and my engineer is the least played level high level character.

To clarify and to add to my original post, though, my frustration isn’t from seeing a large percentage next to the words ‘decreased by’, under a profession of my choice. Every patch in many MMOs shakes up the community like an angry hive. People are liable to be upset even with a single digit percentage. But it’s different in this case. I am not so much complaining about the grenade kit changes alone, but rather the direction of the engineer as a whole. Not only do Lost Shores and Wintersday engineer changes contradict each other (separating PvE vs. PvP damage, then putting them back together again), the developers keep dictating how you should build your offensive build, all while opening up more opportunities for most of the other professions.

It makes me wonder whether anyone on the team responsible for gameplay design (specifically professions) plays engineer. The decisions are completely superficial and uninformed. ArenaNet claims they make small changes because they don’t want to go wrong with large changes, but that’s an incredibly flawed philosophy – some aspects of a profession will require a big change at once, and as they have themselves demonstrated, small changes do not guarantee safety, e.g. PvP and PvE grenade damage separation, or the ability to swap kits in mid-air, which did not work properly at the time of Lost Shores, and probably still doesn’t.

Between them ignoring the flawed to the core turrets, ignoring stat loss between kit swapping, ignoring poor trait placement and implementation (engineer is the only adventurer profession with an endurance boosting trait sitting at grandmaster of a trait line not even related to mobility), I’m honestly done with the engineer until a time ArenaNet happens to hire a designer who will hopefully play and love the profession enough to do it justice.