Guild Wars 2

VIDEO EDITION: https://youtu.be/Uo_GgxIXglE

As the title of this topic suggests, I think the Holosmith’s traits are a rethread of what has occurred and is still occurring with the current core engie and the Scrapper.

When the Scrapper was launched, how many new builds were created for the Engie? ….. It’s definitely not hard to count. It was literally just 1 build. The rest of the builds were either trash or not up to par with the main Hammer/Paladin Amulet Scrapper. And the traits that are being featured on the Holosmith right now are walking down that VERY. SAME. PATH.

If we were to compare the amount of builds made for the Reaper in just 1 year of HoT vs the same for the Scrapper, you’d see that the Scrapper just doesn’t stack up AT ALL.
The Reaper had a lot of possibilities but the scrapper which was attached to a class that is apparently all about versatility, literally only had 1 build that was good enough for PvP and absolutely NONE for PvE. Why is that? How can we let that be the status quo? And let it remain that way?

So once again, just as I did before the trait revamp where I said the Explosives Line for the Engie was atrocious and need to be changed, here I am again saying the same thing for the Holosmith’s trait line. If it ships like this, it will be disappointing for anyone who loves the engie, because after a week of playing around with the skills, people will realize just how shallow the traits really are.

Don’t worry, I’m not here to just rag on Anet, I love what they’ve done with Cauterize and the Leap skill that gives quickness and cripple. These are skills with drawbacks and that’s amazing! Anyone who watches my videos will know I’ve been asking for that for ages! But another I’ve been asking for (FOR AGES) is BETTER DESIGNED TRAITS THAT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF NOT JUST THE ELITE SPECIALIZATION BUT ALSO THE CORE PROFESSION. When building a new Specialization WE CANNOT IGNORE WHAT ALREADY EXISTS on the profession. It has to complement and enhance what is already there or else what’s the point?

My suggestions for traits will be in the attached images below because the post is already getting too long for people to read, but if you want to join in the discussion guys, please leave your thoughts and suggestions below and let me know if you agree that the new specialization’s traits is just not going to cut it.

Those look too good though lol

Way too early to declare that it’s going the way of Scrapper (1 build)

I see many ways to potentially play Holosmith in PvP for example

No mention about the synergy between Crystal Configuration: Storm, Prime Light Beam, Corona Burst, and Explosives traits?

I think Holosmith totally fits into a P/P hybrid damage build as well. P/P, Firearms/Alchemy/Holosmith. Flamethrower, Elixir S, Spectrum Shield. Holosmith: 2-3-1 for heat venting dodge roll burns or Holosmith 3-3-3 for an overheat style build.

Bruiser might stacking build with Sword/Shield, Inventions/Alchemy/Holosmith. Elixir Gun, Spectrum Shield, Hard Light Arena. Focus on doing high Sword damage after leaving Photon Forge with high heat. Holosmith 2-2-2.

DPSSS Holosmith with Sword/Shield, Explosives/Alchemy/Holosmith. Grenades, Elixir S, Spectrum Shield. Wreck face with ranged explosion Photon Forge autos and Grenades. Use Sword/Shield to leap away and quickness heal instead of offense. Holosmith 2-3-3.

Since you’re not excited to play these builds, I think you are just too narrow in what you can view as fun.. personally your suggestions are too focused on condition spamming for my liking

We don’t even know if using a kit will eject you from Photon Forge, there are playstyles totally hinging on that, wait and see.

with @Chaith on this one. i’m holding my horses until we actually get to spvp test these things. hope you stream your gameplay 5G, i’ll be keen to see your builds if you do.

Chaith.8256:

Way too early to declare that it’s going the way of Scrapper (1 build)

I see many ways to potentially play Holosmith in PvP for example

Chaith.8256:

No mention about the synergy between Crystal Configuration: Storm, Prime Light Beam, Corona Burst, and Explosives traits?

Steel Packed Powder and Shaped Charge? Is that what you consider Synergy, Chaith? I mean come on! Just look at the Reaper! 1 single trait creates an entire build! Corona Burst and Light Beam don’t even come close to that.

Chaith.8256:

I think Holosmith totally fits into a P/P hybrid damage build as well. P/P, Firearms/Alchemy/Holosmith. Flamethrower, Elixir S, Spectrum Shield. Holosmith: 2-3-1 for heat venting dodge roll burns or Holosmith 3-3-3 for an overheat style build.

Sorry Chaith, I looked at those suggestions and all I could think was; “We’re still just playing the same old builds but slapping Holosmith on it.”

The ONLY redeeming quality for the Holosmith is the way it’s skills function. Like I said in the video, the Holosmith could bring the Bomb Kit back with it’s area control and Static Discharge back with multiple F1-F4 skills but boy do those traits do nothing to enhance the flavour of the skills. And when I make this statement, I’m not saying the traits don’t work or you can’t use them, what I’m actually saying is, the traits don’t give us any incentive to use other trait lines.

And you could once again bring up the Explosives line and I’ll tell you right now that you will only go into the explosives line to get Glass Cannon, Aim-assisted Rocket and Thermobaric Detonation and the traits that supposed to synergize with the Holosmith will be left behind.

Chaith.8256:

Bruiser might stacking build with Sword/Shield, Inventions/Alchemy/Holosmith. Elixir Gun, Spectrum Shield, Hard Light Arena. Focus on doing high Sword damage after leaving Photon Forge with high heat. Holosmith 2-2-2.

I assumed the Bruiser build would be 1-2-2 since damage reduction is in the Light Density Amplifier.

Chaith.8256:

DPSSS Holosmith with Sword/Shield, Explosives/Alchemy/Holosmith. Grenades, Elixir S, Spectrum Shield. Wreck face with ranged explosion Photon Forge autos and Grenades. Use Sword/Shield to leap away and quickness heal instead of offense. Holosmith 2-3-3.

Ranged explosion Photon Forge Autos, 2-3-3 won’t get you that. But I guess you meant Crystal Configuration: Storm. And even with that, it still doesn’t make the Spec any livelier than the Mirage or even the age old Reaper.

Chaith.8256:

Since you’re not excited to play these builds, I think you are just too narrow in what you can view as fun.. personally your suggestions are too focused on condition spamming for my liking

Narrow? Nah, I’ve just seen these same patterns before. It happened during the trait revamp, it happened during the Scrapper reveal and it’s happening again now. And I can bet with you now, the Holosmith is not going to be used because the traits are good, but because the skills are good.

And if you don’t like conditions, I was just thinking that with all this Holo-manipulation we’re doing, why aren’t we doing things like completely changing what the skills actually do; For instance, instead of Holo Leap being Holo Leap, it gets changed into Holo-chains that immobilize, or instead of Corona Burst we get Holo-Clones that copy our next attack or a Holo-Gatling Gun or a Holo Charrzooka! Why isn’t there more CRAZY?! Why are the traits so narrowly focused on Heat and turning on or off the Forge? Why doesn’t it also touch on the manipulation of light or the manipulation of blind or even the Holo projections themselves! Come on Chaith, you have to see it from my point of view as well.

Chaith.8256:

We don’t even know if using a kit will eject you from Photon Forge, there are playstyles totally hinging on that, wait and see.

As I said, I’ve seen these patterns before and they don’t bode well for the engie community. Not at all. The only thing that can save this is if that balance patch actually changes anything significant on the Engie, that I don’t know about.

Yeah for a Bruiser condition removal is probably still better than the 15% damage reduction. Adept #2 over #1 in PvP, and yes for explosion build I meant Master #1 over #3.

Also we disagreed on explosives being useful, you prefer glass cannon and thermobaric detonation but I think those are terribad and prefer to take grenades, grenadier, and shrapnel which in my opinion of the only PvP viable way to play explosives. Making a build out of Crystal configuration: storm and explosives, that’s not an old build. Making a build based on sword and photon forge, how’s that an old build with Holosmith slapped on…. Oh must be elixir gun?

Again you’re just very particular in that you expect Holo traits to bring some underpowered utilities to the top in a brand new combination or you’re unhappy. Prepare to be disappointed I say, the xPac ships in under 2mth and you won’t like it

Haha, I forgot you are the guy who loves nades. Of course you’d use those explosive traits!

Chaith.8256:

Again you’re just very particular in that you expect Holo traits to bring some underpowered utilities to the top in a brand new combination or you’re unhappy.

What’s the point of a new specialization if it all it does is re-enforce the use of builds that are or were already popular?

I’m already unhappy. I’m hoping at least one of the new specializations gives me something to be excited about.

In PvP a good build will often need a strong defensive foundation like Alchemy, if that makes every build the same despite what utilities, weapons, and the various ways to rely on Photon Forge, then really your beef should be with Alchemy, Soul Reaping, Fast hands, Water, Trickery, every PoF PvP build will still use these specializations in PvP

Chaith.8256:

In PvP a good build will often need a strong defensive foundation like Alchemy, if that makes every build the same despite what utilities, weapons, and the various ways to rely on Photon Forge, then really your beef should be with Alchemy, Soul Reaping, Fast hands, Water, Trickery, every PoF PvP build will still use these specializations in PvP

I think you understand my point but this comment sounds like you don’t. Simply put, the new Specialization isn’t changing the way I see Grenades or use grenades, it isn’t changing the way I use my Pistol or my Rifle. And it only focuses on wielding the Holo-Forge. On the other hand, consider the Reaper again, or even the engie itself, Static Discharge completely changes the way I see the toolbelt skills, Bitter Chill, completely changes the way I look at the Necro’s skills but is there anything like static discharge and Bitter Chill on the Holosmith? Nope.

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

In PvP a good build will often need a strong defensive foundation like Alchemy, if that makes every build the same despite what utilities, weapons, and the various ways to rely on Photon Forge, then really your beef should be with Alchemy, Soul Reaping, Fast hands, Water, Trickery, every PoF PvP build will still use these specializations in PvP

I think you understand my point but this comment sounds like you don’t. Simply put, the new Specialization isn’t changing the way I see Grenades or use grenades, it isn’t changing the way I use my Pistol or my Rifle. And it only focuses on wielding the Holo-Forge. On the other hand, consider the Reaper again, or even the engie itself, Static Discharge completely changes the way I see the toolbelt skills, Bitter Chill, completely changes the way I look at the Necro’s skills but is there anything like static discharge and Bitter Chill on the Holosmith? Nope.

No I get it, just feeling like you’re looking for something very arbitrary for how you particularly enjoy theory crafting. In my view I don’t feel every specialization needs to trait to get twice the benefit from a certain condition or utility type for it to be well designed. Your claiming of mono-builds and same playstyles are not backed up by what we know.

That’s all, just recognize not every Elite spec will have or will need one trait that makes X so powerful you have to revisit every sigil/skill to cram more of X in your build like Bitter Chill. Despite lacking that the Holosmith can have build diversity and provide 3 distinct ways to deal with the heat mechanic.

i think shaped charge at 10% might be better than aim assisted rocket for a bruiser build. you can rely on vuln, or at least 1 stack of it. but it wasnt better at 7%, which is where it was the last time anyone thought about using explosives in pvp.

i dont see glass cannon being useful at all. you might as well take grenadier even without taking nades.

same for thermobaric. entirely useless and bad. take shrapnel instead, because you have some explosions. and random cripple is annoying. annoy your opponents instead of annoying yourself when thermobaric does nothing when you try to skillfully make use of it.

insanemaniac.2456:

i think shaped charge at 10% might be better than aim assisted rocket for a bruiser build. you can rely on vuln, or at least 1 stack of it. but it wasnt better at 7%, which is where it was the last time anyone thought about using explosives in pvp.

i dont see glass cannon being useful at all. you might as well take grenadier even without taking nades.

same for thermobaric. entirely useless and bad. take shrapnel instead, because you have some explosions. and random cripple is annoying. annoy your opponents instead of annoying yourself when thermobaric does nothing when you try to skillfully make use of it.

Hah yeah agreed on Explosive traits, that specialization’s traits are horribly balanced in PvP.

Evasive Powder Keg, Steel Packed Powder’s vuln, Explosive Powder’s 10% and Shaped Charge’s 10%, factor in the vulnerability for your allies attacks – Explosives is pretty legit .. roughly 25-40% more threatening Engi pressure depending on the PvP fight size. For a Grenade & Crystal Configuration: Storm Holosmith it will be assuredly one of the first builds I test.. if you can Grenade while in Photon Forge after the lockout, it’ll be possible to stall your heat generation while remaining in Photon Forge

Judging by the skill descriptions on the Wiki it would make sense that you can still use kits while in photon forge after the lock out time.

Don’t think you can completely stall heat generation though because I think it said photon forge generates 2% heat per second or something like that?

Shaogin.2679:

Judging by the skill descriptions on the Wiki it would make sense that you can still use kits while in photon forge after the lock out time.

Don’t think you can completely stall heat generation though because I think it said photon forge generates 2% heat per second or something like that?

Yeah not halt it but you can stall it pretty good and then exit or overheat when it’s the optimal time to clear conditions or asplode someone

Is the OP declaring the Meta is only picking one build its thinks is the best, and ignoring all the others for even the slightest decrease in performance? Or how the meta prerogative is to condense the entire game mode into the fewest team comps, with the most specialized, highest performing builds, and chastise those who ever dare question its purity of purpose?

Chaith.8256:

insanemaniac.2456:

i think shaped charge at 10% might be better than aim assisted rocket for a bruiser build. you can rely on vuln, or at least 1 stack of it. but it wasnt better at 7%, which is where it was the last time anyone thought about using explosives in pvp.

i dont see glass cannon being useful at all. you might as well take grenadier even without taking nades.

same for thermobaric. entirely useless and bad. take shrapnel instead, because you have some explosions. and random cripple is annoying. annoy your opponents instead of annoying yourself when thermobaric does nothing when you try to skillfully make use of it.

Hah yeah agreed on Explosive traits, that specialization’s traits are horribly balanced in PvP.

Evasive Powder Keg, Steel Packed Powder’s vuln, Explosive Powder’s 10% and Shaped Charge’s 10%, factor in the vulnerability for your allies attacks – Explosives is pretty legit .. roughly 25-40% more threatening Engi pressure depending on the PvP fight size. For a Grenade & Crystal Configuration: Storm Holosmith it will be assuredly one of the first builds I test.. if you can Grenade while in Photon Forge after the lockout, it’ll be possible to stall your heat generation while remaining in Photon Forge

its really too bad engi simply cannot have enough defensive stuff in todays environment without dedicating a minimum of 2 specs.

im not sure which direction i would rather have them go:

1. bake more strong defense into 1 core spec and take it out of the 3rd typical core spec, replacing with damage that doesnt compete with other playstyles. while centralizing (in that pvp/wvw builds literally wont do anything without it as opposed to now where they might just flop over anyways), if properly balanced it could open up several different playstyles that accentuate certain utilities while also leaving room to take an elite to further diversify.
2. put enough defensive traits across all specs so engi isnt tied to any one spec in particular in any game mode.

but of course, they choose the 3rd option: leave the old because spaghetti code and just make new things not often enough.

holosmith looks like you could potentially give up alchemy, fwiw. alchemy is there for condi removal primarily, protection/safety secondarily, and might tertiarily. holosmith has just the 1 utility for protection, but it has multiple dashes including useful superspeed, and a bunch of no icd condi removal when you drop photon, and perfectly good might. its not a really boon heavy spec like alchemy but with all the corruption/stripping thatll fly around that doesnt seem to be a bad thing to me.

i dunno its hard for me to think of this in terms of pvp when it screams pve kit dancer so loudly.

insanemaniac.2456:

Chaith.8256:

insanemaniac.2456:

i think shaped charge at 10% might be better than aim assisted rocket for a bruiser build. you can rely on vuln, or at least 1 stack of it. but it wasnt better at 7%, which is where it was the last time anyone thought about using explosives in pvp.

i dont see glass cannon being useful at all. you might as well take grenadier even without taking nades.

same for thermobaric. entirely useless and bad. take shrapnel instead, because you have some explosions. and random cripple is annoying. annoy your opponents instead of annoying yourself when thermobaric does nothing when you try to skillfully make use of it.

Hah yeah agreed on Explosive traits, that specialization’s traits are horribly balanced in PvP.

Evasive Powder Keg, Steel Packed Powder’s vuln, Explosive Powder’s 10% and Shaped Charge’s 10%, factor in the vulnerability for your allies attacks – Explosives is pretty legit .. roughly 25-40% more threatening Engi pressure depending on the PvP fight size. For a Grenade & Crystal Configuration: Storm Holosmith it will be assuredly one of the first builds I test.. if you can Grenade while in Photon Forge after the lockout, it’ll be possible to stall your heat generation while remaining in Photon Forge

its really too bad engi simply cannot have enough defensive stuff in todays environment without dedicating a minimum of 2 specs.

im not sure which direction i would rather have them go:

1. bake more strong defense into 1 core spec and take it out of the 3rd typical core spec, replacing with damage that doesnt compete with other playstyles. while centralizing (in that pvp/wvw builds literally wont do anything without it as opposed to now where they might just flop over anyways), if properly balanced it could open up several different playstyles that accentuate certain utilities while also leaving room to take an elite to further diversify.
2. put enough defensive traits across all specs so engi isnt tied to any one spec in particular in any game mode.

but of course, they choose the 3rd option: leave the old because spaghetti code and just make new things not often enough.

holosmith looks like you could potentially give up alchemy, fwiw. alchemy is there for condi removal primarily, protection/safety secondarily, and might tertiarily. holosmith has just the 1 utility for protection, but it has multiple dashes including useful superspeed, and a bunch of no icd condi removal when you drop photon, and perfectly good might. its not a really boon heavy spec like alchemy but with all the corruption/stripping thatll fly around that doesnt seem to be a bad thing to me.

i dunno its hard for me to think of this in terms of pvp when it screams pve kit dancer so loudly.

Alchemy from a PvP case is protection Injection, double Elixir S (Toss Elixir S).

That’s just my personal taste in PvP, and it does win games.

do you think the new shield utility + 1 untraited S would suffice if the build can be otherwise bursty?

insanemaniac.2456:

do you think the new shield utility + 1 untraited S would suffice if the build can be otherwise bursty?

It’s possible, but that depends on how deadly the PvP environment is. It looks very deadly so far

Holosmith has huge damage potential (maybe highest of all classes) but Engi and Ele and Ranger have historically all needed to stack purely defensive utilities just to be PvP playable, and hope they are also the best at something..

So to be honest, I don’t know.

Maybe every Holosmith in PvP wanting to fight the best will need to do Inventions/Alchemy/Holosmith with defensive Utilities like Elixir S, Spectrum Shield, and X damage utility. Maybe still using a Marauder amulet though!

Chaith.8256:

That’s all, just recognize not every Elite spec will have or will need one trait that makes X so powerful you have to revisit every sigil/skill to cram more of X in your build like Bitter Chill. Despite lacking that the Holosmith can have build diversity and provide 3 distinct ways to deal with the heat mechanic.

3 Distinct ways to play with 1 mechanic? That is EXACTLY the problem. 3 Distinct ways to play with only 1 mechanic!

I’ll just bring up the mesmer instead of the Necro this time. The Chrono can play with Clone generation or it could play with it’s wells to be a tank, or it could play with it’s very new alacrity mechanic to speed up cooldowns. What’s that now? 3 distinct ways to play with 3 different mechanics. And you can mix them together for even more distinct ways to play.

And for you to tell me that the status quo of the engie does not back up what I’m saying, is to forget your own thread that you created about improvements that need to be made for the Engie trait lines. Especially the explosives and Firearms. We all know that the engie is very stale right now and this sort of trait design isn’t helping matters.

And the traits don’t need to be powerful, they just need to be smart!

Dirame.8521:

And for you to tell me that the status quo of the engie does not back up what I’m saying, is to forget your own thread that you created about improvements that need to be made for the Engie trait lines. Especially the explosives and Firearms. We all know that the engie is very stale right now and this sort of trait design isn’t helping matters.

No, it means that you saying the Holosmith will have one build and a boring theorycraft is not backed up.. you keep drawing similarities to Scrapper’s mono-build problem when there are multiple enticing Holosmith builds, roles, and playstyles. Yes obviously I haven’t forgotten about the Scrapper mono-build.

The Holosmith is lit, while you’re correct in that all Holosmiths will have no choice but to use the heat mechanic, I’ll just repeat myself and say: so what? You just keep repeating that it’s a problem so my responses are kinda pidgeonholed into the same.

I’m extremely pleased with the spec so far, it’s going to be a good theorycraft and finally a viable DPS role for the first time in 2 years. Boo hoo for your problems

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

And for you to tell me that the status quo of the engie does not back up what I’m saying, is to forget your own thread that you created about improvements that need to be made for the Engie trait lines. Especially the explosives and Firearms. We all know that the engie is very stale right now and this sort of trait design isn’t helping matters.

No, it means that you saying the Holosmith will have one build and a boring theorycraft is not backed up.. you keep drawing similarities to Scrapper’s mono-build problem when there are multiple enticing Holosmith builds, roles, and playstyles. Yes obviously I haven’t forgotten about the Scrapper mono-build.

The Holosmith is lit, while you’re correct in that all Holosmiths will have no choice but to use the heat mechanic, I’ll just repeat myself and say: so what? You just keep repeating that it’s a problem so my responses are kinda pidgeonholed into the same.

I’m extremely pleased with the spec so far, it’s going to be a good theorycraft and finally a viable DPS role for the first time in 2 years. Boo hoo for your problems

I guess my problem is that after a month, we might be bored just playing with this one mechanic. But as always, we are each entitled to our opinion.

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

And for you to tell me that the status quo of the engie does not back up what I’m saying, is to forget your own thread that you created about improvements that need to be made for the Engie trait lines. Especially the explosives and Firearms. We all know that the engie is very stale right now and this sort of trait design isn’t helping matters.

No, it means that you saying the Holosmith will have one build and a boring theorycraft is not backed up.. you keep drawing similarities to Scrapper’s mono-build problem when there are multiple enticing Holosmith builds, roles, and playstyles. Yes obviously I haven’t forgotten about the Scrapper mono-build.

The Holosmith is lit, while you’re correct in that all Holosmiths will have no choice but to use the heat mechanic, I’ll just repeat myself and say: so what? You just keep repeating that it’s a problem so my responses are kinda pidgeonholed into the same.

I’m extremely pleased with the spec so far, it’s going to be a good theorycraft and finally a viable DPS role for the first time in 2 years. Boo hoo for your problems

I guess my problem is that after a month, we might be bored just playing with this one mechanic. But as always, we are each entitled to our opinion.

Elite specs are all chained into depending on one specific weapon, skill kit or trait mechanic. Maybe they get bored of their new toy, or maybe they swap a bunch of traits, weapons, amulets and roles and get over the fact they’re chained to a specific class mechanic

The traits don’t look bad. I think we have some ideas as to what can be run (Condi, DPS, Hybrid DPS). Question we will have answered soon is if it is competitive DPS. Spreadsheets and optimal skill rotations don’t translate to actual effective DPS in real world scenarios.

The dolls in PvP are nice to throw things at and watch the health bar go down but they don’t fight back or try to avoid anything.

LilBiM.3581:

The traits don’t look bad. I think we have some ideas as to what can be run (Condi, DPS, Hybrid DPS). Question we will have answered soon is if it is competitive DPS. Spreadsheets and optimal skill rotations don’t translate to actual effective DPS in real world scenarios.

The dolls in PvP are nice to throw things at and watch the health bar go down but they don’t fight back or try to avoid anything.

A good build for PvP does not look just at dummy speed but also, how said build can deal with the enemy’s possibilities. If the Holosmith can counter anything that other characters are doing then cool.

I just want to see how overheat dmg will work with AED.

I don’t see this as being hollow at all. Each of the traits influence how the new mechanic will interact with a given build which is what traits are supposed to do. Traits are not there to make something overpowered or remove all the weaknesses it has.

Now that I see build ideas being posted I’m gonna say mine:
Assuming heat is easy to generate and overheating is something you can achieve in a reasonable time I was thinking of doing an overheat spam bruiser type build. Using sword/shield with toolkit and egun to become really tanky in melee range and using spectrum shield to avoid large bursts and have another stunbreak on the build, you can be tanky enough to build lots of heat and do some decent damage before using forge mode to burst with larger skills and overheat to burst a large amount of damage in aoe around you, heal from overheat cooling, and gain a 15% damage increase so you’re follow up combos can finish off any survivors. Probably would run inventions/alchemy/holosmith but could possibly go tools/alchemy/holosmith.

so far i see 2 viable builds for holosmith traitline so thats something i guess

I definitely don’t see only one build. Mightstacker, condi and maybe even hybrid one. But most of all this needs testing before screaming about Holo being 1 build only.

Dirame.8521:

What’s the point of a new specialization if it all it does is re-enforce the use of builds that are or were already popular?

Just to play devil’s advocate here—as I agree with a lot of what you’re saying in here—does every elite specialization have to be a major overhaul of the profession? If what ArenaNet said last year is true and they’re planning on these expansions being annual, I don’t think future elite specializations will be as crazy as the Heart of Thorns specializations—an indication of which, I’m sure, we’ll begin to see in today’s balance patch.

HoT specializations did far too much of everything, and the new specs seem much more mediated by design. Doesn’t it make sense, then, that Holosmith doesn’t massively overturn engineer gameplay? After all, isn’t what we hated about Heart of Thorns is that it changed far too much?

If we’re stuck being a damage-only class in PvE for the next 12 months, and if Holosmith will just be another duelist specialization in PvP, it will at the very least open up some new play styles different from the scrapper (PvP/WvW) and condi engi (PvE); if it at least succeeds in this goal, I’ll play it. But if scrapper continues to be our meta spec for the next 12 months, I’ll concede you probably had the right of it.

That being said, I don’t have faith that it will succeed—at least not in WvW. And as someone that primarily plays WvW these days, I find it really disappointing that Holosmith has zero utility in a raid setting and will likely only be useful as a roamer. I’ll probably be spending most of my time playing war, ele, guard, and necro there … just as I have the past five years.

My thoughts on HoloSmith for Condition builds in PvE -

You take HoloSmith instead of Tools, as this line give little damage overall but you’ll have to leave behind that sweet stamina regeneration, then you take Prime Light Beam instead of the Mortar, because PLB has a fire field which is better than the Mortar’s poison field but you’ll have to leave behind the extra healing from the Mortar, and you (probably) take Laser Disk instead of Grenades, because LD seems to apply more bleeding than the Shrapnel Grenade but you’ll have to leave behind the Poison Grenade.
Taking the HoloSmith specialization will also apparently remove your elite’s tool bet, as we take PLB it doesn’t matter, but you’ll get access to five new skills from the Photon Forge, one of them (Photon Blitz) giving apparently eight stacks of burning.
As for traits you want to take Solar Focusing Lens because it give more burning, then Crystal Configuration: Storm, which synergize well with some traits from Explosives, and the grandmaster is probably going to be Photonic Blasting Module because it’ll reduce the risk of overheating for you, give you extra burning, and won’t deactivate Heat Therapy and Laser’s Edge when overheated.
Otherwise you take the same stats/weapons than the current Condition Engineer, and rotation wise you might want to charge your overheat above 50% in order to trigger Laser’s Edge (+15% damage increase) and allow LD and PLB to be used at the maximum of their capacity.

In PvP I can see HoloSmith be quite good with Alchemy as it gives more defensive traits such as Prismatic Converter and Crystal Configuration: Eclipse, and Thermal Release Valve may have an interesting synergy with Tools’ trait increasing stamina regeneration.

HoloSmith isn’t as sexy as Weaver on the paper but I think it’s going to do the job just right. And regarding the original post, yes gadgets have been (partially) useless since release, and turrets were useful for a short period of time (an era of boringness I must say) before being nerfed into oblivion, though you still use Overcharged Shot in the Static Discharge build (admittedly a rare sight those days). Which makes half of the engineer skills sort of useless, but that’s an issue for core engineer and specializations have nothing to do with it.

i think traiting the photon dash instead of turning photon 1 into an explosion will result in a minimal dps loss and more utility, i dont particularly want to be using photon 1 as condi even if it is an explosion. explosions no longer have a +10% explosion damage mod and im not sure shrapnel will add enough to justify using it over sword 1. but could be wrong, well see.

Alchimist.4738:

HoloSmith isn’t as sexy as Weaver on the paper but I think it’s going to do the job just right. And regarding the original post, yes gadgets have been (partially) useless since release, and turrets were useful for a short period of time (an era of boringness I must say) before being nerfed into oblivion, though you still use Overcharged Shot in the Static Discharge build (admittedly a rare sight those days). Which makes half of the engineer skills sort of useless, but that’s an issue for core engineer and specializations have nothing to do with it.

The Holosmith will definitely give some life to gadgets like A.E.D. as many people have pointed out and maybe bombs but I am more than skeptical about the synergy and effectiveness of those traits.

This holosmith spec is folowing the exact same path of scrapper and sorry if you don’t like it but this is true.

Developpers wants to create a refreshement when they realese theses elites specs but the overall final on engineer it’s a slackness result. We litteraly look like a graveyards of multiple kids ideas that didn’t have motivation to finish what they started.

And instead of trying to fix and creating more links into what we already have they just give us after :
The horrible “wanna be tank stupid AI gryo spec” ( scrapper )
The horrible "wanna be tank n°2 Stupid 0 synergysmith " ( holosmith ).

But this time bois they added some lights and made it shiny like that you don’t see the rest of the engi skills " they even locked your elite skill slot, like that you don’t see all the rest of the skills they don’t want to work on. ( you need the holo tool kit elite spec in order to be able to play fully the holosmith concept )

The pve meta didn’t wanted scrapper tank and that will be the same with holosmith because we can’t bring as much as chronomancers.

I mean look at the skills ? Are they trowing some idea out of the wind and hope that they will work somehow without comparing them with others class power.

This holomsith it’s fail n°2 for the engi. We are just stacking more usless skills with no synergy. That’s no respect for engi players and Im really disapointed to see how poor the arena net get invested for us.

ARENA NET you need to make a engineer spec that put all the differents builds you tried to create at the same level to their competitor. Don’t try to blind us with that flashy holosmith ligh. Sitdown and work about how to fix the engi skills/trait mess some serious stuff for you invested engis players.

The poeple that like holosmith are players that need a new wave of refreshement. They are big mouth now because they are desperately looking for something new but after playing it for 2weeks they will leave it ( like they left their scrappers ) Because Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

Chaith.8256:

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

I’m just amazed how so confidently you think that we don’t know what willbe useful and where.
It’s not because you have 0 idea about anything that the rest of the player base is as clueless as you.

Wait and see if you want but here but in this forum topic we talk about holosmith traits. If the only constructive comment you can bring is “wait and see” I propose you indeed to wait and see aswell.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dirame.8521:

What’s the point of a new specialization if it all it does is re-enforce the use of builds that are or were already popular?

Just to play devil’s advocate here—as I agree with a lot of what you’re saying in here—does every elite specialization have to be a major overhaul of the profession? If what ArenaNet said last year is true and they’re planning on these expansions being annual, I don’t think future elite specializations will be as crazy as the Heart of Thorns specializations—an indication of which, I’m sure, we’ll begin to see in today’s balance patch.

HoT specializations did far too much of everything, and the new specs seem much more mediated by design. Doesn’t it make sense, then, that Holosmith doesn’t massively overturn engineer gameplay? After all, isn’t what we hated about Heart of Thorns is that it changed far too much?

If we’re stuck being a damage-only class in PvE for the next 12 months, and if Holosmith will just be another duelist specialization in PvP, it will at the very least open up some new play styles different from the scrapper (PvP/WvW) and condi engi (PvE); if it at least succeeds in this goal, I’ll play it. But if scrapper continues to be our meta spec for the next 12 months, I’ll concede you probably had the right of it.

That being said, I don’t have faith that it will succeed—at least not in WvW. And as someone that primarily plays WvW these days, I find it really disappointing that Holosmith has zero utility in a raid setting and will likely only be useful as a roamer. I’ll probably be spending most of my time playing war, ele, guard, and necro there … just as I have the past five years.

Sorry for not replying to your post dude. I start replying to one and I get distracted by other things.
Just to clarify, the hope that some of us have is not an overhaul to the engineer but rather just a different playstyle and that does not need to be an overhaul. Deathly chill on the necromancer isn’t an overhaul, Static discharge isn’t an overhaul, none of the suggestions I gave are overhauls to what the original class is! They could just focus on chills like they did for the Reaper or Dodges like they did for the Daredevil, but the main thing they have to do is make sure the traits can be tied back to the base profession or else you might as well just use Holosmith on its own without any of the other trait lines.
And you say “but they are being conservative with all the professions” well let me just tilt my glasses at you at an angle for a second……. Have you seen the Weaver? Have you seen the Mirage? Have you seen the Spellbreaker? Are those classes conservative? I don’t think so. Even if you do think that those classes are conservative, they all have 1 thing in common, they have traits that tie their new mechanics back to their old skills and traits and this is what what we want for the Engie. It isn’t impossible.

Pablo.3259:

Chaith.8256:

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

I’m just amazed how so confidently you think that we don’t know what willbe useful and where.
It’s not because you have 0 idea about anything that the rest of the player base is as clueless as you.

Wait and see if you want but here but in this forum topic we talk about holosmith traits. If the only constructive comment you can bring is “wait and see” I propose you indeed to wait and see aswell.

There are functionality questions, nuances we don’t know about interactions between photon forge, kits, and heat that can change the game. Also the PvP meta seems very anti Condi in POF and that may leave holosmith a very strong niche as the hot knife through butter overwhelming power cleave. But please, rage on

No rage needed that’s much better than your previous message.

My thoughts are the folowing :
Meta builds have different importance depending of what game mode you are playing.
Not having a meta build for roaming, pvp, fractals, pve events isn’t that important ; you will still be able to play thoses gamemodes.

But for PVE raid and dedicated WvW squad Meta build or Effective build/Synergizing builds are much more important. The fact that you are as or more effective than other classes will determine if you deserve a slot in the squad.
Because the level and expectation of teamplay is higher than pvp conquest roaming whatever.

What I am angry about is that they insiste to give us this dps tank that have no place in the pve raid meta and very questionable utility in wvw squad. Maybe it aswesome for solo pvp when you are bored of your life but that’s on an other level, I wish you do understand my point here.
Because the investissement of gearing for raids or wvw it’s much higher than random fractal or arena pvp. The result of this mean that there is not reason to invest time and money on gearing an engi tank or support.

We have a class that can do a little of everything healing, support, tanking but we don’t have a spot in the meta because we can’t do things in a comparable level to others classes.

Give engis tank a similar buff that will increase the party effectiveness like Alacrit from Chronomancers. Give engis healer the possibility to increase party dps on the same level a druid can do. Give engis a real importance in WvW where having one in your squad will matter.

And instead of Arena net trying to make our skills competitive they trow this very cheap paint to cover the class skills they don’t want to work on. We have some much skills in engi that are useless and outdated, just look at that medkit ! Wtf is that?

Chaith.8256:

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

Chaith, you haven’t been playing Guild Wars 2 for a while, but I’m sure you remember very well the fact that engineer has pretty much never had a role in World vs. World outside of gimmick mechanics like magnet pulling commanders or having momentary usefulness with the Bulwark Gyro reflect bubble (which was very quickly rendered obsolete by shield-wielding guardians). As such, to get such a selfish, distilled elite specialization that serves no utilitarian purpose … you have to admit that’s a bit of a let down, no? If I’m a WvW-only engi-main (if any such people even exist in 2017 still), I’m supposedly spending $30 to unlock another roaming build that in no way moves the needle for the profession in any reasonable way.

Further to that point … Holosmith will likely have a plenty healthy presence in PvE, because PvE is only obsessed with damage output—which is really all Holosmith does. If Holosmith makes up a contributing factor in reaching the highest possible raid damage output, then that’s all that matters there. And because core engi already has a role as a DPSer, that’s very likely to be the case. But beyond that, again, it really doesn’t move the needle; if I’m a PvE-only engi-main, I’m ostensibly spending $30 to really only change up my damage rotation. Holosmith contributes nothing to the profession beyond that, and does nothing to reimagine or revitalize the profession in fractals, raids, or dungeon content beyond a single-minded DPS role.

I mean, sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade. They took a jack-of-all-trades and neutered it.

Dirame.8521:

Just to clarify, the hope that some of us have is not an overhaul to the engineer but rather just a different playstyle and that does not need to be an overhaul. Deathly chill on the necromancer isn’t an overhaul, Static discharge isn’t an overhaul, none of the suggestions I gave are overhauls to what the original class is!

They could just focus on chills like they did for the Reaper or Dodges like they did for the Daredevil, but the main thing they have to do is make sure the traits can be tied back to the base profession or else you might as well just use Holosmith on its own without any of the other trait lines.

Well, as you can see from the post I just wrote to Chaith, I have a lot of issues with Holosmith too. I’m not sure that it lacking a different play style is one of them, though.

Right now, kits still dominate PvE. Holosmith should provide an alternative option. Just as Scrapper got us away from the bomb kit and grenade kit in PvP and WvW, Holosmith should—if designed properly—get us away from frantically swapping between kits mashing our keyboard and give us something that actually looks like a skill rotation in PvE.

If ArenaNet successfully gets engineers to stop needing to run 4 kits on their bar, that’s a far bigger overhaul than Reaper chill or Daredevil dodges gave to their respective professions.

Dirame.8521:

And you say “but they are being conservative with all the professions.”

I don’t remember saying that, but I do remember saying that the specs appear to be more mediated by design than their Heart of Thorns counterparts. What I meant by that wasn’t that the Path of Fire specializations will be any less cool or unconventional, but that they seem to fulfill a specific role and individually focus on that.

Scourge is a great example. It’s a support specialization. Sounds great. But they lose their shroud in the process—a major aspect of their damage and their survivability. It’s these trade-offs that ArenaNet needs more of, and it’s clear that Spellbreaker and Weaver, while dramatically different from their core playstyles, have similarly baked-in weaknesses that Tempest and Berserker did not.

As frustrating as it is to read as a warrior player, I did always find it patently absurd that Berserker F1s were not only universally stronger in damage than core F1s, but that they also cleansed more conditions and maintained Adrenal Health better. Berserker was an umbrella upgrade over core warrior in both offense and defense without really sacrificing any support. Spellbreaker, on the other hand, will be a glass cannon much like Holosmith will be.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

Chaith, you haven’t been playing Guild Wars 2 for a while, but I’m sure you remember very well the fact that engineer has pretty much never had a role in World vs. World outside of gimmick mechanics like magnet pulling commanders or having momentary usefulness with the Bulwark Gyro reflect bubble (which was very quickly rendered obsolete by shield-wielding guardians). As such, to get such a selfish, distilled elite specialization that serves no utilitarian purpose … you have to admit that’s a bit of a let down, no? If I’m a WvW-only engi-main (if any such people even exist in 2017 still), I’m supposedly spending $30 to unlock another roaming build that in no way moves the needle for the profession in any reasonable way.

Further to that point … Holosmith will likely have a plenty healthy presence in PvE, because PvE is only obsessed with damage output—which is really all Holosmith does. If Holosmith makes up a contributing factor in reaching the highest possible raid damage output, then that’s all that matters there. And because core engi already has a role as a DPSer, that’s very likely to be the case. But beyond that, again, it really doesn’t move the needle; if I’m a PvE-only engi-main, I’m ostensibly spending $30 to really only change up my damage rotation. Holosmith contributes nothing to the profession beyond that, and does nothing to reimagine or revitalize the profession in fractals, raids, or dungeon content beyond a single-minded DPS role.

I mean, sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade. They took a jack-of-all-trades and neutered it.

I just can’t find the same disappointment when you don’t get a new role in an Elite Spec in every given mode. “Ostensibly spending $30 to really only change up my damage rotation” is to me a horrifically pessimistic outlook on not getting a new role in PvE for example. Holosmith is regaining a new role in PvP which by some shared logic you should be very excited about then. WvW Engineer has always been awkward, Holosmith should be a fun, agile ganker though.

I’m still not convinced by the Holosmith QQ’r arguments that the elite spec isn’t going to be fun or viable, or game changing enough. I think it’s going to not change any roles other than PvP but will be hella fun and viable in various niches across the game.

If you’re listening Robert Gee and Arenanet, please note that I give you these ideas with full consent and with these message boards as my witness. And even if you don’t take these ideas, just do something GREAT with the Holosmith! That’s all I want.

Crystal Configuration: Zephyr Adept
Holo Leap also launches teammates and grants superspeed.

Holo Path Master
Whilst you have superspeed, leave a light trail behind you that blocks the
Path of projectiles and foes. Deals damage and burns when enemies bump into it. (Guess what I’m referencing here?)

Light Speed Grandmaster
You have 150% max heat. Gaining superspeed grants you a stacking buff called ‘Entering Light Speed’
When you reach 5 stacks, you and all nearby allies enter Light Speed for 5s making all your attacks 50% faster but you build up heat 50% faster for the duration.

Thermal Release Valve Adept
Dodging vents heat and applies Burning. Burning Applies Vulnerability

Photon Harvesting Module Master
Activate a skill when you hit a foe above the burning thresholds:
5 Stacks: Refraction Cutter
10 Stacks: Lazer Disk
15 Stacks: Corona Burst

Heat Management Grandmaster
Maintaining 50-60% Heat gives you 20% more damage

Don’t Look Directly into the Lazer Adept (Can you also guess what I’m referencing here?)
When you apply blind, you apply 2 stacks of it. Passive Heat generation increased.

Photonic Blasting Module Master
Overheating now Blasts damage to nearby foes and no longer deals it’s damage to you. Blind you apply also applies confusion

Holo Expansion module Grandmaster
Spectrum Shield, now applies to 5 nearby allies in 900 radius
Prime Light Beam lasts longer and fire’s farther
Increase the radius of Lazer disk, Photon Wall and Corona Burst
Spectrum Shield and Photon Wall also apply barrier.

And Chaith, the above is an example of what I want from the Holosmith. It’s not far from what it currently is but I can definitely assure you it is a whole lot better for everyone ranging from PvE to all forms of PvP.

Chaith.8256:

I just can’t find the same disappointment when you don’t get a new role in an Elite Spec in every given mode.

I’d just like to remind you that Scrapper didn’t move the needle for engineer in PvE or WvW. We don’t even spec into it in PvE at all. So the idea that it’s some kind of faux outrage or misplaced self-entitlement that I ask that Holosmith actually does something measurable in those areas of the games—most specifically WvW—is kind of outrageous.

Engineer is brought into raids solely for Pinpoint Precision. This elite specialization will not in any tangible way build on top of that job security, especially if the condi meta falls off in Path of Fire and the need for it greatly diminishes. Heck, even now, while core engineer does top-tier DPS already in raids, its minimal raid buff contributions make it easily replaced in the current meta. I don’t see how it’ll be any different for Holosmith.

Chaith.8256:

“Ostensibly spending $30 to really only change up my damage rotation” is to me a horrifically pessimistic outlook on not getting a new role in PvE for example. Holosmith is regaining a new role in PvP which by some shared logic you should be very excited about then. WvW Engineer has always been awkward, Holosmith should be a fun, agile ganker though.

You know what else is a fun, agile ganker? Thief. Guess how valued they are in WvW raid groups?

I’ll give you a hint: it’s not very much.

Chaith.8256:

I’m still not convinced by the Holosmith QQ’r arguments that the elite spec isn’t going to be fun or viable, or game changing enough. I think it’s going to not change any roles other than PvP but will be hella fun and viable in various niches across the game.

I’d say my argument is fairly dispassionate, well-reasoned, and valid. I am not “QQing” and I am not saying the specialization won’t be fun. I’d appreciate it if you considered other perspectives on the discussion and at least acknowledged that there is some merit to our concerns.

I know we’ve historically butted heads on certain things, but we share a common goal here, and we’re on the same team.

Dirame.8521:

just do something GREAT with the Holosmith!

if you dont already think its at least passable, well, i hate to break it to you… but its too late for holosmith. animations and programming are done already. because the class is playable on the dev client. if you want changes, you will need to suggest mostly numbers changes at this point, because as weve seen from core and hot, anet doesnt really go back and redo things that arent explicitly broken and unplayable (and not just workable yet bad). i wish you luck and inspiration coming up with ideas along those lines.

I can only speak from a pve perspective, but you should read this thread to understand how important people kits are in pve.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Kits-Should-New-Engi-ESpecs-get-them/page/2#post6528757.

Some of this people even consider kits the main engineer mechanic, and not the toolbelt skills. This spec is obviously made for them: provides a new kit to play with, both useful for condi or power builds (or so i suppose). And engineer is not the only one that comes back to its origins, core elementalist’s stance dancing seems that will come back in weaver.

After a completely pvp spec (a design failure, if you ask me), they’ve turned to a likely very pve centered spec; tho this one might do good in pvp, not like scrapper in pve.

I was interested a support build, that thing kits don’t seem to do well. But I understand its place and its audience. It may even reduce the number of kits in utility skills condi engineers need to have. Who knows.

Now let’s talk about providing team utility for wvw/raid groups. In the first, there are some changes that could be made to Scrapper, like gyros not being destroyed by damage (that would make a buffed bulwark, purge or even shredder quite interesting choices), adding utility to functional gyro or reverting final salvo to its previous state.

In the second one, I can’t seem to remember group utility options brought by top dps builds apart from gale song (only in some bosses) and rebound (maybe). Engineer provides a very desired buff to the condition meta while having great dps, something many other classes can only dream.

insanemaniac.2456:

Dirame.8521:

just do something GREAT with the Holosmith!

if you dont already think its at least passable, well, i hate to break it to you… but its too late for holosmith. animations and programming are done already. because the class is playable on the dev client. if you want changes, you will need to suggest mostly numbers changes at this point, because as weve seen from core and hot, anet doesnt really go back and redo things that arent explicitly broken and unplayable (and not just workable yet bad). i wish you luck and inspiration coming up with ideas along those lines.

Actually, as we’ve seen for HoT (Dragonhunter in particular) they are more than willing to change things, FUNCTIONALITY included. And I was one of the voices complaining like crazy until they changed the DH. So past events prove you wrong.

yeah ok, i suppose i could have been more precise. theyre willing to nerf things that warp metas extremely and present bad, boring, cancerous, or conflicting gameplay. taking away functionality doesnt require new animations, as we can see from hammer 3 losing a daze. the animation is the same, but we only get 2 leaps now instead of 3. guardian traps didnt need new animations when they lost dazes.

so i mean if youre calling for huge nerfs already because you genuinely think everything about holosmith will be op and no raid, pvp team, fractal group, and or wvw roamer will want to play without or against holosmiths, please, have fun.

but it seems to me that you just arent happy with what you are getting, and you want something that you came up with instead. and its too late for that kind of change. that was up for discussion months ago when they hadnt yet announced the expansion. try again before they announce the 3rd xpac and already have all the back end work done. (although they prolly already have tons of ideas sitting in a usb drive somewhere that dont give you some kinda awkward legal claim over their IP).

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’d just like to remind you that Scrapper didn’t move the needle for engineer in PvE or WvW. We don’t even spec into it in PvE at all. So the idea that it’s some kind of faux outrage or misplaced self-entitlement that I ask that Holosmith actually does something measurable in those areas of the games—most specifically WvW—is kind of outrageous.

Engineer is brought into raids solely for Pinpoint Precision. This elite specialization will not in any tangible way build on top of that job security, especially if the condi meta falls off in Path of Fire and the need for it greatly diminishes. Heck, even now, while core engineer does top-tier DPS already in raids, its minimal raid buff contributions make it easily replaced in the current meta. I don’t see how it’ll be any different for Holosmith.

You know what else is a fun, agile ganker? Thief. Guess how valued they are in WvW raid groups?

I’ll give you a hint: it’s not very much.

I’d say my argument is fairly dispassionate, well-reasoned, and valid. I am not “QQing” and I am not saying the specialization won’t be fun. I’d appreciate it if you considered other perspectives on the discussion and at least acknowledged that there is some merit to our concerns.

I know we’ve historically butted heads on certain things, but we share a common goal here, and we’re on the same team.

I’m also not convinced yet that a very tanky Holosmith traited 1-2-2 with Sword/Shield, Inventions & Alchemy would be not worth having in group WvW content as a frontline DPS, in addition to being a very good roamer. Here you give no credit to this very real potential. Stacking group utility buffs isn’t the only way to provide value. If you are talking about some kind of min-maxed, highly discriminatory, fixed number GvG squad, I think giving up on equal representation of professions is a good starting point..

Holosmith will add on to PvE builds, yes, highly min-maxed raids will take a Holosmith because of the core Engineer’s Pinpoint Precision raid wide buff, but they will also take a Holosmith because the Holosmith traitline improves the core Engineer’s DPS! Here you give no credit, as if Holosmith would be not even be used in PvE.

Basically, you refuse to acknowledge that increased personal damage IS a tangibly useful addition. To claim that Holosmith is not ‘moving the needle’ in WvW, PvE, this will be disproved by players slotting Holosmith in these game modes over other specs.

insanemaniac.2456:

yeah ok, i suppose i could have been more precise. theyre willing to nerf things that warp metas extremely and present bad, boring, cancerous, or conflicting gameplay. taking away functionality doesnt require new animations, as we can see from hammer 3 losing a daze. the animation is the same, but we only get 2 leaps now instead of 3. guardian traps didnt need new animations when they lost dazes.

so i mean if youre calling for huge nerfs already because you genuinely think everything about holosmith will be op and no raid, pvp team, fractal group, and or wvw roamer will want to play without or against holosmiths, please, have fun.

but it seems to me that you just arent happy with what you are getting, and you want something that you came up with instead. and its too late for that kind of change. that was up for discussion months ago when they hadnt yet announced the expansion. try again before they announce the 3rd xpac and already have all the back end work done. (although they prolly already have tons of ideas sitting in a usb drive somewhere that dont give you some kinda awkward legal claim over their IP).

Why are you trying to make me sound stupid? I never said anything about nerfs. Do the suggestions I posted above sound like nerfs to you? When I was talking about the Dragonhunter changes, I wasn’t talking about post-launch nerfs, I was talking about pre-launch changes. I and many others listed the things wrong with the Dragonhunter trait line and the devs agreed and changed it to synergize with the core profession more (the exact same problem I’m having with the Holosmith right now) and they did it in 2 weeks.

Also the Revenant was in pretty weird shape pre-launch. The people who loved that class got Anet to change the traits as well. So you may say or think that I don’t know what I’m doing when I’m complaining but trust me, I’ve done this multiple times already. Just check my post history; I called out the Explosives line for being trash when they previewed the trait revamp which people like you and Chaith (not exactly you but people like you) told me to “wait and see”, I called out the some other crappy Ranger traits that they only just recently changed (Thank God!). So yea, I know who Arenanet is, I know how they think and I know when traits are bad and even when they are good. I don’t just scream bloody murder for the hell of it.