Guild Wars 2

So they just announced thumper turret will be doing an ae cripple.
Rifle turret will have improved damage…etc.

Thoughts? Discuss.

I am leveling my engineer finally and decided I didn’t care if they where horrible, I was playing turrets because I like the playstyle. The fix to deployable turrets in the last patch helped a ton. Being able to drop my thumper right in the middle of a crowd, and throw my rifle turret off to the side has helped immensely.

one of my favorites now is just standing on my thumper with my crowbar out and smacking down everything that comes my way. (PVE of course).

Once I hit 80 and start WvWvW I may find I am horrible but until then I am having a ton of fun.

A lot of it is to increase their viability in SPVP where they have limited to no use, I dont know if they’ll ever gain popularity in wvw. But dont fret in pve, they are good even in their current condition because you can afford the utility slots to use them, and they’re essentially free dps as long as they dont get killed.

Only prob with turrets is in dungeons where certain dungeons/bosses spam AOE’s that tend to take the turrets out even when traited for their survival and range. But one good news is they said pets are supposed to all share your agony resistance in the upcoming patch….so its a step in the right direction for turrets in pve, so your play style should only be getting better!

Doubt it will ever happen but i miss the TF2 idea, you can have a quick throw away turret that trades speed for convienience

A standard sentry that only takes a while but then if you beat on it for a while upgrades, its stationary its a time investment but when its finished its some thing people need to be wary of not spitball gun they run past.

If they are getting buffed, which I would think the new patch with the 100% healing improvement should have helped, what is a good turrent build?

I see little to no posts about them, their strengths and weakness and what builds they have good synergy with. I always liked the idea of turrents, but it never made sense before to try them. Thoughts?

Rhoellan.5462:

If they are getting buffed, which I would think the new patch with the 100% healing improvement should have helped, what is a good turrent build?

I see little to no posts about them, their strengths and weakness and what builds they have good synergy with. I always liked the idea of turrents, but it never made sense before to try them. Thoughts?

Probably because no one has actually gone out and tried to make a dungeon-viable build given how weak they currently are.

I would imagine the setup would be something like Healing Turret + Rifle Turret + Rocket Turret + Tool Kit for damage.

No idea how traits would be split, but I’d imagine Tools and Inventions would be the obvious focus.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rhoellan.5462:

If they are getting buffed, which I would think the new patch with the 100% healing improvement should have helped, what is a good turrent build?

I see little to no posts about them, their strengths and weakness and what builds they have good synergy with. I always liked the idea of turrents, but it never made sense before to try them. Thoughts?

Probably because no one has actually gone out and tried to make a dungeon-viable build given how weak they currently are.

I would imagine the setup would be something like Healing Turret + Rifle Turret + Rocket Turret + Tool Kit for damage.

No idea how traits would be split, but I’d imagine Tools and Inventions would be the obvious focus.

Also with them being weak is the cooldown on them. If you spec into turrents they are your main dmg source and dropping them to kill a mob then moving on is sily concept. You should only have cool down on turret if it gets killed. Picking it up should reduce CD by 100%.

Yeah, I especially like how people go on about how Deployable Turrets means you can now toss them in unreachable areas.

Well if they’re unreachable, that means you’re stuck with the extended cooldown when you’re ready to move on.

Just one of many suspect design choices of the Engineer. Though I still love the class and would love to try out turrets in the next patch.

I was actually thinking, Static Discharge may work extremely well with turrets.

Running something like a 0/20/30/0/20 setup may work:

Firearms: Hair Trigger + Rifle Mod
Inventions: Metal Plating + Autotool Installations + Rifled Turret Barrels
Tools: Static Discharge + Power Wrench

An alternative would be doing something like Knee Shot + Precise Sights for Vulnerability stacking with the Net Turret. If this patch delivers on its promises (I’m not holding my breath) this could be a lot of fun.

I have actually played with turrents in dungeons without huge AoE damage bosses with a 30/10/30/0/0 build, because all I did was spam grenades anyway for vul, and didn’t have anything I needed in the utility slots wearing my full Zerker armor, actually worked quite well with a Rifle Turrent and Rocket Turrent, but as soon an boss with AoE came up they had serious problems!

Zinwrath.2049:

So they just announced thumper turret will be doing an ae cripple.
Rifle turret will have improved damage…etc.

Thoughts? Discuss.

While damage is part of the issue with kits, the main issue with them is that other stuff is much more help to anyone other than someone leveling.

My main concern from a pvp perspective is that turrets are unreliable in there targetting. Rifle turret can do all the damage int he world if its shooting mesmer clones or necro minions.

daydream.2938:

My main concern from a pvp perspective is that turrets are unreliable in there targetting. Rifle turret can do all the damage int he world if its shooting mesmer clones or necro minions.

I agree. In fact, I challenge the guys at arena net. Actually make a change that makes turrets useful, because I don’t believe it is possible or that they are capable of doing it. Go ahead Anet, surprise me.

timidobserver.7925:

daydream.2938:

My main concern from a pvp perspective is that turrets are unreliable in there targetting. Rifle turret can do all the damage int he world if its shooting mesmer clones or necro minions.

I agree. In fact, I challenge the guys at arena net. Actually make a change that makes turrets useful, because I don’t believe it is possible or that they are capable of doing it. Go ahead Anet, surprise me.

A though would be that the turret targets your target if its in range. And a random enemy player if not. Be cool if turrets didnt waste time attacking npcs. Especially net turret which fires slowly.

cargan.5689:

Doubt it will ever happen but i miss the TF2 idea, you can have a quick throw away turret that trades speed for convienience

A standard sentry that only takes a while but then if you beat on it for a while upgrades, its stationary its a time investment but when its finished its some thing people need to be wary of not spitball gun they run past.

the way they balanced the speed of pick up and tear down is to have the turrets be scalable in level. the macro game for engie was supplies. you needed supplies to build up your equipment and you needed supplies to increase their level. Now, the way it works in an FPS is different though, because of how much more precise timing and targetting can be in the controlled environments.

The closest an MMO can get is what they have now in sPvP. but in order to implement a “supplies” mechanic, it would have to replace the toolbelt and be an efficiency pool like adrenaline or whatever it is thieves have. to adjust for the rapidity of micromanaging turrets, they would have to be weak but reparable under sustained fire and sustained repair, and they would have to do more damage.

foes should want to avoid my turrets and want to kill them, and I should be able to protect them and want to because of their value to my survival.

As i wrote it down during BWE1, no matter what you do, how you buff them etc., Turrets will always suck. Dont get people that “like the playstyle” of turrets lol, its even more boring than elixirs.

Zinwrath.2049:

So they just announced thumper turret will be doing an ae cripple.
Rifle turret will have improved damage…etc.

Thoughts? Discuss.

Turrets are still horrible due to their health, limited AI, dying to AoE way to fast, recast, toolbelt skills, and lack of mobility.

Unless ANet is willing to drastically change turret raw damage and health, these changes will be nothing to write home about.

I’m okay with long cooldowns on turret actives and laying turrets. It promotes immobility, which is the point of laying turrets – they are point defense structures after all. They need to be menacing when faced head on, and hard to break with an engineer defending and repairing them. Hell, I’ll settle for annoying rather than menacing.

The problem is right now they feel like they are made of kittens. They also hit like kittens. Note that when I say kittens, I mean infant cats with their soft, furry, clawless paws.

The sad thing is turrets would function better if they were truly made of kittens. At least some people would be nice enough to stop destroying them.

irakai.6891:

The sad thing is turrets would function better if they were truly made of kittens. At least some people would be nice enough to stop destroying them.

Bahahaha, we need a turrent that shoot kittens! xD

irakai.6891:

Unless ANet is willing to drastically change turret raw damage and health, these changes will be nothing to write home about.

I’m okay with long cooldowns on turret actives and laying turrets. It promotes immobility, which is the point of laying turrets – they are point defense structures after all. They need to be menacing when faced head on, and hard to break with an engineer defending and repairing them. Hell, I’ll settle for annoying rather than menacing.

The problem is right now they feel like they are made of kittens. They also hit like kittens. Note that when I say kittens, I mean infant cats with their soft, furry, clawless paws.

The sad thing is turrets would function better if they were truly made of kittens. At least some people would be nice enough to stop destroying them.

This.

Turrets are so bad that I actually lol whenever I see someone using them. I am the only Engineer in my guild, but everyone there is familiar with my term, “Turret Noob” – because only someone who doesn’t know what on earth they are doing with their Eng would ever use one.

Perhaps if aggro tables weren’t so messed up they might be good for PvE. Perhaps if they had shorter CDs, were mobile (someone in another thread suggested a spec that would allow them to travel with you, like Necro pets), or even just didn’t instantly break whenever someone sneezed on them, they might be viable in PvP.

Honestly, I think the idea of turrets needs to be scrapped completely. They are never going to be as good as kits. Kits are the reason Engineers shine, give us more viable builds centred around those.

Why not make them like banners? Something you can pick up and use, ie. relocate, and that serves as a weapon while being held, but isn’t directly target-able. Unlike banners, only allow engineers to pick them up.

Or, make them like a guardian’s spiritual weapon.

Bah, not good suggestions, but I think something drastic should be done to make them more viable and more importantly; practical.

Anybody play DaOc? Fire and forget; make them like the shrooms! It is a great concept, just poorly implemented.

each turret should be a kit of its own.

5 = pack up/set up
4 = overcharge

2 – 3 ought to be extra skills, like drop bandage on a short cooldown or drop bandages on a long cool down for healing turret, or caltrops and an oil slick for net turret (small durations medium cooldowns, or whatever.

1 = attack my target.

Turrets should gain buffs from skills and elixirs like anything else.
Turrets should do enough dmg to make the opponent target the turret.
Turrets should be strong enough to survive sustained dmg for short periods.
Turrets should be able to be healed through sustained dmg for long periods.

This way we could swap between turret control and weapons/kits easily.

TBH i dont have too much trouble with turrets in spvp (meaning i think they have potential in their currrent design). You can trait them to be harder to be destroyed and rifle/rocket you can usually stick somewhere they will have to ignore you to go after.

This all said, i think turrets would benefit from scaling off your toughness/power. They already benefit from condition i see no reason not to let them scale off your other stats.

Also like most pet specs, your best off building tankier. You’ll notice minion master and inventions is in the toughness trees with lots of tanky traits.
The play style is centered more around bunkering, where while you may not do a ton of damage the turrets are always pelting away at your target forcing the enemy to decide whether he should waste time focusing you or go after your pets. Either way can be detrimental to the person fighting you.

Now i’m not saying its balanced, its obviously not thus why they’re buffing it. And it may need additional help even after. But atleast in SPVP, try going with a toughness rune set, tanky traits and high toughness amulet (maybe even throwing in toolkit for extra tanky and turret heal). Spread your turrets to make it harder to focus, and if you can try to keep a defencive turret near you..either.

Flame thrower for ae blind smoke combo field.
Net turret for stun/immobalize.
Thumper (soon) cripple and knockback.

Flame turert and thumper are tankier and thus can sit next to you in a fight and they wont be rewarded for attacking it, while the other ones are more damage oriented with further range and should be kept far apart preferably in a hard to reach area.

Like i said i repeat, they are weak. This is not the best play style, just understand that turrets are for bunker builds where you intend to hold a point, and will never be a good offencive build tool for lots of damage (outside perhaps PVE). But they CAN be good for wittling away and CCing your enemy while you keep em busy and pelt them down with your rifle or pistol.

Also idea for devs, place turret trait is kinda weak by itself…there isnt enough incentive or advantage to this trait. Would be nice to add on to the 10 point Tools trait by adding 20% reduced cd on turrets. Just a thought.

EDIT: also much like you did the minion heal for necro, might up the periodic heal on healing turret to give more incentive to not just blow it up right away after casting.

EDIT2: for further clarification, healing turret is supposed to tie into the bunker play style. Right now i can spawn it get a heal and a regenation, then immidiatly destroy it and get a water combo field and be able to do it again in 20 seconds. Meaning its always better to just destroy it.

(16 with the 20% off trait if it goes through which would put it on par with the necro minion heal after 20% off minion cd’s)

Its balanced on the necro minion because it now gives you over 900 health every couple seconds, also it heals upon destroying the minion…not upon casting. This is better because the minion can be useful alive…and there is counter play for an enemy to destroy it before the necro can heal off it. The turret would be more ideal if it worked the same way.
If it healed a good enough amount you wanted it out, and the fact of blowing it up to get the big heal would allow players to have counter play to deny the engineer a big heal, as well as ensure you dont want to blow it up as soon as possible so you can get your big heal back on CD.

I hope this makes sense.

@Zinwrath I really like the idea with the place turrent trait, 20% shorter cooldown it would suddenly make it much more attraktive, even if your only using the healing turrent and maybe another turrent!
The healing turrent for sure would get a boost, also I can see two ways in WvW (both dueling/small man roaming and larger group fights where you want to place it at other people and not yourself) where that would be usefull! And ofc. bunkering would gain a lot from it in sPvP! +1 for that simple yet effektive idea

No matter how much you buff the turrets damage or utility, there’s no way they will be effective in pvp. Because turrets are for holding points and there’s no way they provide enough tools to do that on their own.

If you decide to only use turrets you are stuck with little condition cleanses and no stun-breaker. If you try to use other things together with them you’ll end up with only one or two turrets.

I believe that using multiple turrets is a design flaw. In every other game that has turrets , thay are always a single very strong one. That setting is already balanced, and you don’t have half the problems a multi turret build has. For example: devs can’t make the turrets hit too hard or have too much health because there will be 2 or 3 of them, engineer would be unstoppable if our turrets hit hard and had decent health. Too many turrets means that you can’t protect them all unles you put them all together, wich makes the even more vulnerable to aoe.

But if we had only one turret that combined all of our currently ones we’d be balanced and the only number that would have to be tweaked is health. We could finally be able to make builds around it because we could carry the tool-kit, the turrets, and a stun-breaker. They would be strong because they could do a lot of things at the same time and they would be balanced because of the time it would take to setup and the consequence of losing it because the CDs would still be high and it would take a lot of time to rebuild it.

Turning turrets in a turret kit brings both interaction with them and strategic play because you’d have to control your enemy and the area to protect them. And if that happens the turrets would look awesome.

So rifle turret will be more useful than just using it for its toolbelt ability? ( 10 sec/below for static discharge)

I think the update will help us but the issue we are facing with the turrets is low damage and low surviability.. They can’t move so they should get some sort of survivability boost. And again they cant move so they need to do more damage because they are not mobile.

Destac.2064:

I think the update will help us but the issue we are facing with the turrets is low damage and low surviability.. They can’t move so they should get some sort of survivability boost. And again they cant move so they need to do more damage because they are not mobile.

That’s true, and don’t forget low utility. In my opinion the greatest problem with turrets is that they have very low utility, except for knockbacks for blowing them up. If turrets had a stunbreak and condition cleanses, or maybe a movement skill, I can see people using them.

A simple damage add is fine for a mesmer phantasm that comes with the weapon set. But utility skills need to have some utility. Turrets should at the very least match or exceed the damage of a phantasm that is mobile and doesn’t cost a utility slot.

as with kits, the mere fact that turrets occupy a utility slot means they are subject to versatility tax.

/sarcasm

sunnypsyop.3025
Turrets are so bad that I actually lol whenever I see someone using them. I am the only Engineer in my guild, but everyone there is familiar with my term, “Turret Noob” – because only someone who doesn’t know what on earth they are doing with their Eng
would ever use one.

Play whatever you wanna play don’t listen to kittens who revolves their lives around a game.
Laugh all you want buttfor but how does it feel still being virgin at 45?
Go turrets go!!!

NevirSayDie.6235:

Destac.2064:

I think the update will help us but the issue we are facing with the turrets is low damage and low surviability.. They can’t move so they should get some sort of survivability boost. And again they cant move so they need to do more damage because they are not mobile.

That’s true, and don’t forget low utility. In my opinion the greatest problem with turrets is that they have very low utility, except for knockbacks for blowing them up. If turrets had a stunbreak and condition cleanses, or maybe a movement skill, I can see people using them.

A simple damage add is fine for a mesmer phantasm that comes with the weapon set. But utility skills need to have some utility. Turrets should at the very least match or exceed the damage of a phantasm that is mobile and doesn’t cost a utility slot.

I wouldnt say they all have low utility, it may just not be the utility your wanting.
(also dont compare turrets to mesmers class defining skill phantasms its a poor comparison, as you said..they’re not a utility slot)

Net turret obviously is almost all utility, giving you immobilized for 3 seconds (and additional 2 seconds of cripple with trait and 5 stacks of vuln for 8 seconds with another trait). And can be overcharged for a couple 2 second stuns.

Flame thrower over charge can put down an AE smokefield that persists for 5 seconds blinding everyone around and giving you access to blind combo finisher and invis.

Rocket turret orver charge can get off a couple 2second knockdowns.

Thumper overcharge as you said can AE knockback.

Healing turret overcharge can AE condition cleanse. (people often forget it does this)

Leaving just rifle turret with no utility…as its only purpose is ranged damage. (but it can do projectile combo finishers on his auto attack, it wont say it is doing it, but it is)

People fall into two problems,
1) they feel like they need a turret in every utility slot to even use them. (you dont)
2) they feel like despite all their CC they still need a stun breaker. (not always true)

I have suggested in another thread, that they put in an elite turret that perhaps could have an overcharge of something like (few seconds of AE stability). Would be like the flesh golem for necromancers on a reasonable cd, little stronger than other pets.

This would allow players who use turrets exclusively to have access to stability (so you dont really need a stunbreaker since you cant be stunned) and allow people who want to fit in the toolkit or elixer S (examp) into their build…would still feel like they have several turrets.

Also supply crate would need its turrets removed and replaced by additional drops like Antidotes, Stim packs (condition cleansers and fury/swiftnesss boons) and perhaps dropping a flamethrower kit or elixer gun kit. Because this elite is already powerful by itself, and should be more about dropping supplys. Also if they buff turrets, this already powerful elite will be pushed into an OP state (if you dont think it is already). So best to make it the choice supporting elite, while turret can be the best bunker/turret user elite.

Zinwrath.2049:

I wouldnt say they all have low utility, it may just not be the utility your wanting.
(also dont compare turrets to mesmers class defining skill phantasms its a poor comparison, as you said..they’re not a utility slot)

The point was that something that costs a utility should be more powerful than an attack that comes with a weapon, instead of far less powerful. Also, the reason turrets aren’t “class defining” is that they’re bad. If they were good, lots of engineers would use them and they’d be “class defining.”

Healing Turret need a buff. whats the point of it if regen doesnt stack?

Knighthonor.4061:

Healing Turret need a buff. whats the point of it if regen doesnt stack?

Water field?

Cleansing Burst is also pretty nice.

What we need is the ability to force focus your turrets on an enemy. There is no reason why you can’t remote control your turrets to some extent.

Hmm. . .Why not a kit for remote controlling turrets. Let it have two melee attacks (to at least give it some direct attacks), three turret control attacks.

I’ll think up ideas for this kit. Help is welcomed.

since you asked for help making a “kit” for turrets, and im sure this got missed in the scroll:

nakoda.4213:

each turret should be a kit of its own.

5 = pack up/set up
4 = overcharge

2 – 3 ought to be extra skills, like drop bandage on a short cooldown or drop bandages on a long cool down for healing turret, or caltrops and an oil slick for net turret (small durations medium cooldowns, or whatever.

1 = attack my target.

Turrets should gain buffs from skills and elixirs like anything else.
Turrets should do enough dmg to make the opponent target the turret.
Turrets should be strong enough to survive sustained dmg for short periods.
Turrets should be able to be healed through sustained dmg for long periods.

This way we could swap between turret control and weapons/kits easily.

I could say more but im on a bus on my phone.

might get buffed. Don’t call it before it actually makes live.

5-10% dmg increase to rifle turret won’t change a thing. 50% on the other hand might make it useful for certain builds.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Zinwrath.2049:

I wouldnt say they all have low utility, it may just not be the utility your wanting.
(also dont compare turrets to mesmers class defining skill phantasms its a poor comparison, as you said..they’re not a utility slot)

The point was that something that costs a utility should be more powerful than an attack that comes with a weapon, instead of far less powerful. Also, the reason turrets aren’t “class defining” is that they’re bad. If they were good, lots of engineers would use them and they’d be “class defining.”

Your not getting it. Here i’ll give ya a link.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession

Each profession has a unique trait or class defining ability(s). Which is usually a resource and/or a clickable ability(s) on their f1-f4 These abilities are usually enhanced by your 5th trait line on every profession.

Necro – deathshroud
Warrior – adrenaline
Theif – initiative/steal
Mesmer – clone-phant/shatter
Engineer – toolbelt
Elementalist – attunements
Ranger – Pet/pet abilities
Gaurdian – Virtues.

You are comparing a core part of mesmer (clone/phants) which is their resource for doing shatters and is spawnable through various weapons/traits/utilities much like necromancer gain lifeforce on various weaponss/traits/utilities to use deathshroud, (etc etc).

To a utility catagory (Turrets). You can compare turrets to another utility line, lets say (Minions) or (Spirits) or (Spirit Weapons). All these are Utility Lines that spawn pets and thus are comparable to turrets which are a utility that spawn pets.

Comparing turrets to mesmer phants, is like comparing necro minions to ranger pets. Its a bad comparison.

Killyox.3950:

might get buffed. Don’t call it before it actually makes live.

5-10% dmg increase to rifle turret won’t change a thing. 50% on the other hand might make it useful for certain builds.

true, i’m eager to see in what way they will increase the rifles damage, and how much. It may be a small amount on the turret itself, but a large amount on its overcharge. Or visa/versa…or just one…..its hard to say. Guess we’ll know soon.

give more health to all turret 5X please

Another demonstration of ANet that they dont get the problems with the turrets. Problems are
-terrible AI
-too static (cooldowns)
-too low HP/Toughness (even with traits) in combination with the high cooldowns

and not the damageoutput nor the abilities. As long as they dont fix this, turrets are not competitive enough.

Zinwrath.2049:

Killyox.3950:

might get buffed. Don’t call it before it actually makes live.

5-10% dmg increase to rifle turret won’t change a thing. 50% on the other hand might make it useful for certain builds.

true, i’m eager to see in what way they will increase the rifles damage, and how much. It may be a small amount on the turret itself, but a large amount on its overcharge. Or visa/versa…or just one…..its hard to say. Guess we’ll know soon.

I keep repeating this often. But i rather have Rifle Turret okitten60s CD and with good damage than 20s CD that barely makes diff.

Still, the biggest shortcoming for turrets is their kitten AI.

They also have crap HP. Even in PvE standard Orr mob can throw dancing dagger skill and wipe 3 of my turrets 1 shotting hem all.

Rocket Turret could imo be on 60s CD 10sec duration and shoot rockets every 2sec. Would make a diff when made.

Same with Thumper. Overcharge should be instantaneous regardless of rate of fire and it could last 10-15s and apply 2s cripple every 3sec instead of 3 every 5

I think rifle will be able to keep its short cd due to it…not really offering any crowd control. You have to have rocket on a long cd. It shoots farther than all other turrets, it does more damage than all other turrets, it gets multiple 2 second knockdowns with its overcharge….

I always ask myself (would i have prefered rocket…if instead of knockdown, it just had a shorter cd and more damage?). Then it would be kinda boring though…but yea, there needs to be a 20% cd reduction trait, preferably in the tools tree.

I think Anet should focus on the way Turrets currently work, the overcharges are very clunky right now, while some of them are powerfull it is just anoying to have to wait for the attack cycle of your turrets when you play a game based on the players reactivity.

Make Healing Turret – Cleansing Wave instant, I can’t coun’t the number of times I lost more than 1/2 of my health from conditions because I had to wait for my turret to respond.
Make Flamer Turret – Smoke Screen instant too, this gives more versatility and better support for your team when your Flamer Turret isn’t at range of a target to tigger the Smoke radius.
Same goes for the Thumper Turret – Earthshake needs to trigger instantly, because when your engineer is stunned by nearby ennemies he can’t always wait 3sec for a knockback.
By making those 3 skills instant you already greatly improve the turrets effectiveness without even creating balancing issues sinds the overcharge skills are exactly the same as before but only more responsive.

For the other Turrets overcharge abilities I would rather go for a longer duration buff but with instead a limited Overcharge uses (a bit like the Ranger Sharpening Stone). By doing that you will always be sure to have the exact same number of shots, whenever you use this ability and you will put an end to that horrible internal cooldown turret micromanadging.

Zinwrath.2049:

Comparing turrets to mesmer phants, is like comparing necro minions to ranger pets. Its a bad comparison.

I understand. I was speaking from a balance perspective only. I suppose we could compare toolbelt skills to phantasms/shatters, so that we were comparing the “same” aspect of each profession.

Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of good things about engineers. Turrets just aren’t one of them.