Guild Wars 2

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Ging.6485:

Are people really complaining about the lack of use of the Scrapper in a PVE environment?

It’s pretty obvious that it was designed to fix what the Engineer was lacking : support and survivability. Not give it another way to DPS. We have grenades, we have condis, we have plenty of damage options. What we lack is a concrete way to be of use to a group, and a concrete way to stay alive against conditions and focus-fire. That is what the Scrapper gives us.

I don’t mean to burst your bubble but with the way PvE works there is a golden rule:

If you aren’t doing damage, you are effectively useless. No one wants the full cleric guardian to show up and “heal” everyone while slowing the group to a crawl because someone is hitting for 400 damage.

Guess what the Scrapper doesn’t do? Yep. Damage. And what is it DESIGNED to do? Yep. Tank. It’s a PvP spec, designed to be a boring stunbunker.

If you still aren’t convinced. Look at the “new mechanic”. A ranged stomp and rez. Lets look at a list all the applications a ranged stomp/rez has in PvE:

1.
2.
3.
4. Killing those toxic Sylvari that showed up that one time in an event that will never show up again.
5.
6. Picking little Tim up off the ground when he doesn’t dodge a oneshot.

Scrapper is anet forcing their esports game mode on the second-least popular profession. It is also their second attempt at balancing turrets. Furthermore, it doesn’t even add anything new, neither to the class or the game. Gyros are either boring and passive (50% less damage, poor healing) or an underwhelming active. (whirling and counter-intuitive stealth). I laugh every time they say “fuel system”. It’s not some complex system, its a DURATION for the love of god drop the act.

But yeah whatever back to Grenades I guess (Which still apply vuln faster than the hammer does)

Yes , and what I am saying is that the Scrapper gives us the ability to do things that we CANNOT do as opposed to a new way of doing something that we are already capable of.

Where you are essentially saying “I’d rather be an engineer and also beat on NPCs with a hammer, instead of throw grenades at them.” Might as well roll a Warrior or Guardian then.

Unless PVE changed, you are all just going to stand in a pile and just spam a rotation of buttons anyway not noticing the animations of the skills. If you want to solo, just equip berserker’s gear and do whatever, the game is not at all challenging solo.

Ging.6485:

Yes , and what I am saying is that the Scrapper gives us the ability to do things that we CANNOT do as opposed to a new way of doing something that we are already capable of.

Where you are essentially saying “I’d rather be an engineer and also beat on NPCs with a hammer, instead of throw grenades at them.” Might as well roll a Warrior or Guardian then.

Unless PVE changed, you are all just going to stand in a pile and just spam a rotation of buttons anyway not noticing the animations of the skills. If you want to solo, just equip berserker’s gear and do whatever, the game is not at all challenging solo.

Well we don’t know the full extent of Scrapper yet in PvE for HoT.

From beta we already see some of the mobs being very Anti-Zerker and a lot of players drop dead fast for not having proper amount of Toughness or Vitality in the HoT zones.

We already have people calling for Nerfs in HoT zones mobs because they’re being slaughtered for using Zerker Build or any type of pure DPS build that ignores Toughness and Vitality.

miriforst.1290:

So i think we can still improve it in ways without having it end up a free warbanner. Making it not port but originate at the engineer, decrease cooldown and increase range would be a start. It would even synergize with our super speed.

I agree completely. However you don point me to another annoyance. How aoften have you actually seen superspeed work at full speed? To date Superspeed is still bugged, it doesn’t bypass the current speedcap ( 33% ooc and 25% ic). It also doesn’t stack. In short, it’s a crap version of swiftness, which Anet struggle to keep working.

This is the boon that Anet has decided will be the core of the scrapper.

Good Job, Anet. Good job.

EdwinLi.1284:

Ging.6485:

Yes , and what I am saying is that the Scrapper gives us the ability to do things that we CANNOT do as opposed to a new way of doing something that we are already capable of.

Where you are essentially saying “I’d rather be an engineer and also beat on NPCs with a hammer, instead of throw grenades at them.” Might as well roll a Warrior or Guardian then.

Unless PVE changed, you are all just going to stand in a pile and just spam a rotation of buttons anyway not noticing the animations of the skills. If you want to solo, just equip berserker’s gear and do whatever, the game is not at all challenging solo.

Well we don’t know the full extent of Scrapper yet in PvE for HoT.

From beta we already see some of the mobs being very Anti-Zerker and a lot of players drop dead fast for not having proper amount of Toughness or Vitality in the HoT zones.

We already have people calling for Nerfs in HoT zones mobs because they’re being slaughtered for using Zerker Build or any type of pure DPS build that ignores Toughness and Vitality.

If that is true then great. I really want the meta attitude to go away. I want to enjoy GW2, not Fashion Wars 2 : Speed Run Edition.

miriforst.1290:

Dahkeus.8243:

miriforst.1290:

Dahkeus.8243:

People think that PvE will continue to be just like speed run, EZ-mode dungeons and they expect Function Gyro to be another clone of “Search and Rescue”, so they’re discounting it right off the bat.

But I expect people will be glad to have it when raids come out…

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

I think people expect that if the new content is so hard that it becomes useful, its in an environment where it will be useless/heavily neutered. Situations like “I cant revive you but my gyro can!” require the gyro to actually handle whatever hazards making you unable to do it yourself. Of course there is a trait that gives you both stability when you start your revival, but then give that trait the 30 sec cooldown instead of the gyro.

I really don’t buy that though. It’s not supposed to be a guaranteed, perfect rez, regardless of how much bad AoE your ally died in and it doesn’t need to be in order to be a clutch ability. If it was, it would pretty much just be a warbanner on a 30 second cooldown without the cost of your elite skill slot.

It will double your rez speed, allowing you to rez before bad stuff lands or at least allow you to rez if there’s bad stuff between you and the ally, but not directly on top of the ally.

The thing is, 30 seconds cooldown is still a bit much for such a niche mechanic no?

Think of our mechanic distributed over the course of the fight, while others might have a more even distribution of special mechanics which remains useful in a manner of different roles (like continuum shift allowing both defensive and offensive play in other ways than F pressing), ours is only available in very special situations. Then it needs to compensate for not being available during the rest of the fight. Another thing is that as far as we know (they haven’t actually demonstrated it, probably because its not even implemented properly) you can not choose when to activate it? That means that we will waste a lot of gyros when we do not need it and then have them under cooldown in situations where they do matter.

I like the idea of the mechanic, but it needs to be very strong or at least polished.

And its not close enough to a “free” warbanner to be that afraid of improving it. And the slot it occupies is our specialization mechanic + another minor trait (outside of the first minor). Its more of a free single target elixir R toss on a shorter cooldown but which does not clear conditions, nor serve as a field, got shorter range and is destructible as well as crowd controllable, meaning it can’t be used in skirmishes where pressure is going out reliably. Or it can be used in pvp and wvw to hopefully land a stomp against enemies who got a down state vulnerable against stability (if you add another trait), if the enemy is not in an area where splash damage or an ally is nearby, meaning out of the actual combat. It will be fun to gatestomp eles in wvw ill grant you that though.

So i think we can still improve it in ways without having it end up a free warbanner. Making it not port but originate at the engineer, decrease cooldown and increase range would be a start. It would even synergize with our super speed.

You think 30 seconds is too much? There’s only 1 other revive mechanic in the game with a cooldown of less than 100 seconds (“Search and Rescue”) and that’s still over twice the cooldown after you take the shout cd reduction trait. And even after that, you still have to wait on your pet to get to the target before any rez happens.

So, no, I don’t think a revive that appears instantly at your target with no cast time and no travel time and takes up no skill slot has a cooldown that’s too high when it’s over half of any other similar mechanic in the game.

The comparison to Elixir R also doesn’t hold up that well considering that you’re comparing a slot skill for something an engineer would never want to bring into PvE with a cooldown over 3 times that of Function Bot to something we’ll get for free and with no cast time. If Elixir R suddenly becomes meta and is worth taking over one of the 3 kits necessary for engineer DPS or any of our other utility skills, then I’ll be fine with you making the comparison, lol.

Does this mean that it’s fine and doesn’t need any boost? No, but the factors involved in that decision simply aren’t known to us.
– If the hp of the bot is too low, then it doesn’t matter if it has a short cooldown.
– What is the average fight length for the new raid encounters? (although I seriously doubt raid boss fights will last <30 seconds and if they do, the balance problem probably isn’t the scrapper, lol)
– Are there any bugs?
– Does it go back to reviving if it gets CCed?

However, outside of those factors, we’re looking at becoming probably the strongest reviver in the game without needing a single skill or trait devoted to the task right when we’re about to get the most difficult PvE content that ANet has released.

The range is the only restriction that seems to potentially be an issue, but 750 doesn’t sound terrible.

Morfedel.4165:

Haralin.1473:

What i dont understand is, the mesmer gets his new F skill without skilling it with a trait, the thief get 3 doges without the need to skill it with a trait, the necro gets the new f skill also for free. We must skill it and lose one Trait for it and in my opinion a very good one 25% Stunduration -25% stunduration on me.

What are you talking about? What does “skilling it” supposed to mean?

We need to select a trait to get the gyro function, mesmer and other classes dont need this to get there new elite class ability, Mesmer gets a new Fx Skill, Thief get more dodges and Necro a new Fx skill without wasting a traitslot for it.

The function should be in the first minor trait.

Haralin.1473:

Morfedel.4165:

Haralin.1473:

What i dont understand is, the mesmer gets his new F skill without skilling it with a trait, the thief get 3 doges without the need to skill it with a trait, the necro gets the new f skill also for free. We must skill it and lose one Trait for it and in my opinion a very good one 25% Stunduration -25% stunduration on me.

What are you talking about? What does “skilling it” supposed to mean?

We need to select a trait to get the gyro function, mesmer and other classes dont need this to get there new elite class ability, Mesmer gets a new Fx Skill, Thief get more dodges and Necro a new Fx skill without wasting a traitslot for it.

The function should be in the first minor trait.

You got the concept wrong. The function gyro IS in the first minor trait. There is just a adept trait which provides your function gyro and yourself stability while you are stomping/rezzing.

Haralin.1473:

Morfedel.4165:

Haralin.1473:

What i dont understand is, the mesmer gets his new F skill without skilling it with a trait, the thief get 3 doges without the need to skill it with a trait, the necro gets the new f skill also for free. We must skill it and lose one Trait for it and in my opinion a very good one 25% Stunduration -25% stunduration on me.

What are you talking about? What does “skilling it” supposed to mean?

We need to select a trait to get the gyro function, mesmer and other classes dont need this to get there new elite class ability, Mesmer gets a new Fx Skill, Thief get more dodges and Necro a new Fx skill without wasting a traitslot for it.

The function should be in the first minor trait.

I think you’re confused. We do get the function gyro trait from a minor trait. However, there is an additional optional trait to get stability that you may be thinking of.

Source: http://dulfy.net/2015/09/18/gw2-scapper-engineer-elite-specialization-livestream-notes/#Traits

Kodama.6453:

Haralin.1473:

Morfedel.4165:

Haralin.1473:

What i dont understand is, the mesmer gets his new F skill without skilling it with a trait, the thief get 3 doges without the need to skill it with a trait, the necro gets the new f skill also for free. We must skill it and lose one Trait for it and in my opinion a very good one 25% Stunduration -25% stunduration on me.

What are you talking about? What does “skilling it” supposed to mean?

We need to select a trait to get the gyro function, mesmer and other classes dont need this to get there new elite class ability, Mesmer gets a new Fx Skill, Thief get more dodges and Necro a new Fx skill without wasting a traitslot for it.

The function should be in the first minor trait.

You got the concept wrong. The function gyro IS in the first minor trait. There is just a adept trait which provides your function gyro and yourself stability while you are stomping/rezzing.

Thanks for clearing it up for me (i read it wrong at dulfy), than please forget everything i said

-Im using turrets other than thumper as a reference, as that has health levels similar to that of the “tanky” bulwark. Do the entire hp bar of a rifle turret or rocket turret sound frightening? A smaller cooldown means that while your stomp attempt/revival attempt may have failed your specialization mechanic will not be disabled for another 30 seconds for reviving AND stomping. If you need to stomp an enemy (so far no option to control whether to stomp normally as it replaces your F key while not on cooldown) even if you could easily succeed normally (like FT smoke with juggerscrappers) you will then not be able to help your ally with it 20 seconds later (which is ages in combat). You know in a way kind of similar to kit refinement.
-It got 750 range.
-Once again it is not free. Its our specialization mechanic. Think of it as an invisible slot where the developers could have chosen to add something to get our enemies down faster in the first place or to keep our allies on their feet anyway.
-Are revive skills frequently used then? Should we use them as the ruler to balance our class mechanic or maybe it is time for a re tuning of them. (yes banner sees some use, but a aoe rally (not manual revive) with additional benefits for a long duration is kind of miles away). Many supportive skills are way under tuned in the first place (look at medkit).
-Yes there will be bugs. (Seriously this have no impact on the balance of the mechanic)
-What does the raid boss length have with it (i just wonder which way this argument goes)?
-It should probably go back to stomping, im more concerned if it will be stationary given its spawning on top of your foe, that is to say will it stomp thieves, mesmers, guardians, necromancers, revenants and elementalists. I will assume that it does.

And when i say cooldown reduction im talking a 10 seconds cd/duration, if you let the scrapper summon another gyro during that time to stomp your teammate maybe you should have gotten him/her up a bit earlier. But the engineer will still have it available when a window of opportunity opens for both of its purposes. Im also against it being summoned on top of the enemy/ally as i can see this being used to revive allies in closed of locations like behind keep walls and other similar exploits, but instead summoning it from the engineer and making it move to your target like blast gyro increases its telegraph (this is a good way to balance powerful skills), goes well with our speed boosting abilities, allows for a balanced way of increasing its range and so on. It also introduces an element of aiming the gyro which at least makes you think on how you deploy it while still rewarding the ones who do. Looks like a win win but i can see if you don’t consider it that way.

Holy wall of text Batman. Even those bullet points don’t make your post readable. However, you’re still coming from a perspective where you’re judging this from the perspective of current content. Yea, a revive utility is useless in PvE right now, but if you think you’re psychic enough to tell exactly what it will be like in a post-HoT world and can make balance judgments based on that, then that’s your prerogative I guess.

I’m just glad you don’t work for ANet, lol.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Ging.6485:

Are people really complaining about the lack of use of the Scrapper in a PVE environment?

It’s pretty obvious that it was designed to fix what the Engineer was lacking : support and survivability. Not give it another way to DPS. We have grenades, we have condis, we have plenty of damage options. What we lack is a concrete way to be of use to a group, and a concrete way to stay alive against conditions and focus-fire. That is what the Scrapper gives us.

I don’t mean to burst your bubble but with the way PvE works there is a golden rule:

If you aren’t doing damage, you are effectively useless. No one wants the full cleric guardian to show up and “heal” everyone while slowing the group to a crawl because someone is hitting for 400 damage.

Guess what the Scrapper doesn’t do? Yep. Damage. And what is it DESIGNED to do? Yep. Tank. It’s a PvP spec, designed to be a boring stunbunker.

If you still aren’t convinced. Look at the “new mechanic”. A ranged stomp and rez. Lets look at a list all the applications a ranged stomp/rez has in PvE:

1.
2.
3.
4. Killing those toxic Sylvari that showed up that one time in an event that will never show up again.
5.
6. Picking little Tim up off the ground when he doesn’t dodge a oneshot.

Scrapper is anet forcing their esports game mode on the second-least popular profession. It is also their second attempt at balancing turrets. Furthermore, it doesn’t even add anything new, neither to the class or the game. Gyros are either boring and passive (50% less damage, poor healing) or an underwhelming active. (whirling and counter-intuitive stealth). I laugh every time they say “fuel system”. It’s not some complex system, its a DURATION for the love of god drop the act.

But yeah whatever back to Grenades I guess (Which still apply vuln faster than the hammer does)

That may have been true before, but HoT in general and raids in particular are very likely exceptions

I think we have a lot of people here that only know PvE through the lens of GW2 and haven’t really done difficult raids before. =P

dancingmonkey.4902:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Function Gyro is great. Just not for PvE.

Sneak Gyro is okay, but is too harsh a counter against thieves (I think a 1 – 2 second reveal would be more fair) and unwanted. Also, we are not thieves, we do not care about stealth nearly that much to waste our Elite on it.

This seems hypocritical to me, as the ability of thieves and mesmers to endlessly chain, or spam stealth at will, strikes me as unfair to the other 6 professions who have reasonably limited stealth, or no stealth at all.

Right, but stealth is pretty much all thieves have in terms of active defense.

If they were better balanced, 6 seconds would be fine.

PvE function gyro further strengthens our pug carrying capabilities, and will make newer content easier to deal with anyway.

If we get to a point where we have super meta raid comps where no one needs the extra rez power from function gyro, we’ll still get tons of mileage out of it between HoT release and then. This is also assuming they don’t add stomps to permanent group pve content, which they very well could.

I’m satisfied with pretty much everything in the Scrapper, anet is pretty good with being flexible with changes and we know how to make our class work after a few years of playing it.

Rhomulos.2089:

This is also assuming they don’t add stomps to permanent group pve content, which they very well could.

.

They already have stomps in PvE but very rarely on Events, stomps in PvE would be good for A-Net cause they can sell more stomp finisher, i would like it

Haralin.1473:

They already have stomps in PvE but very rarely on Events, stomps in PvE would be good for A-Net cause they can sell more stomp finisher, i would like it

As someone who have done this events a lot, you stop stomping them after a while since pure damage is simply faster.