Guild Wars 2

so what were those new Anet plans for Engineers?

I heard they were getting revamped big time.

so what were the plans? what changed?

Where did you hear this?

on mmorpg.com thread.

Provide a link? I think you can assume that if there’s zero discussion on this forum about it, then…

Who knows. Anet has encountered a lot of problems that are specific to this single class though, which takes away from developer/programming time to address. Obviously, to a producer, streamlining the engineer to fall more in line with the functionality of other classes would seem very enticing.

For example, the problem with legendaries. Currently engineers are the only profession with the problem of showing off their legendary as builds with kits tend to perform better than builds without, and we all know what happens to your shiny legendary when you switch to a kit. No other class has this problem, and from a producers standpoint, why would you want to come up with and implement a fix to this problem if it takes away productivity from other areas of the game and is catered to a single profession?

It took time for them to implement sigils and weapon stats for our kits. That was time I am sure they would have rather spent in other areas of the game, yet it was an absolute necessity in order for the engineer to remain competitive. I am sure at least one programmer sat down after months of rewriting entire lines of code for a SINGLE profession and thought, “wow I wish we didn’t have the engineer in this game.” Once again, this was a problem that singularly affected the engineer, and no other class in the game.

So, fast forward to ascended weapons. Now we have many concerned engineers wondering how the increased weapon damage will apply to our kits, if it does at all. One hopes this issue is in the minds of the anet developers, but if you take a close look, and how they might be budgeting their time across their programmers, then it would be reasonable to assume that there is not enough manpower available to implement any sort of change what-so-ever.

Lets just say you are a Guild Wars 2 developer. The team finally balances out and designs all of these great new ascended weapons. All of that work that was put in to create these weapons should be done at that point right? The answer is no. You still have to come up with an idea on how to implement these weapons for a single class, the Engineer. After hours of brainstorming, you might just give up, and task your team towards other goals, as spending copious amounts of time for less than 10 percent of your player population is not conducive to a happy player base.

What would you do in this case if you were a developer working for arena net? It’s a known fact that a lot of the new things created have to take the engineer into special consideration. Create a rune with an effect on heal? Make sure you program in an ICD or else you will have the same outcome as you did with runes of torment. Add in ascended weapons with increased weapon damage? Cool, hopefully you make it so our kits scale with weapon damage now. Oops what’s that? You didn’t factor in the fact that you also have to program that little line of code into EVERY SINGLE other bundle in the game and now you have a few exploiters running around soloing champions with a portal gun (I know this is an extreme example).

At this point you probably think to yourself, why on earth did we design a class that is so different from every other class in the game? One that requires hours of manpower just to implement ideas that are already programmed successfully for our other 7 professions? And when this question is asked, in the industry the answer is always generally the same: “Redesign the entire class so its streamlined with the others.”

I am sorry if this disheartening, but it’s true. And as much as I love the engineer to death, and think its class mechanic is the most fun thing in the game, arena net might eventually reach a breaking point with this profession and just redesign it all together.

Please don’t read this as a request to redesign the profession. I am just giving you all an example as to why the engineer, out of many classes, always seems to get the short end of the stick when massive new system updates are created. In the very near future this will be ascended weapons and how they work with kits, and you can certainly bank on the fact that they will not when they are first released.

I just cried a little….

elithrar.7143:

Provide a link? I think you can assume that if there’s zero discussion on this forum about it, then…

This was a while ago when they announced new weapons and traits for all classes coming before the end of the year.

I am still waiting to log in and see that my Engie has become a tree.

Hrm, Decklan, this is why I generally prefer interesting design over balance.

I can live with playing an underdog ability / spec / class / type, so long as my choice feels unique. Distinct. WoW’s greatest flaw in it’s later stages is that it washes out class and spec things, in the name of “balance”.

That balance might be there (tough to find a game as balanced as WoW is), but in return it feels meaningless which class I play. At least, compared to how it used to feel.

As far as Engineers specifically, go, I honestly would just make kits abilities + cosmetics, leave all weapon stats + damage + everything intact. Sure, it “promotes” rifles for kit-builds, but that’s by far the lesser of two evils IMO. It’s also counterintuitive. If someone equips a shiney new weapon, they expect their damage to go up. Not so with kits.

But it’s not the sole class which works that way. Rangers, Elementalists and Mesmers are also frequently in a weird spot due to how their class mechanics work.

While we discuss Engi problems… One day I wish an engineer Dev will try use turrets against any old boss. and then cry when the boss sneezes and everything dies.

Maybe one day he will observe the rocket turret shooting at passing butterflys instead of my target.

The hobo sack. enough said.

The RNG in the class… basically we pretend that since you cant rely on effects to happen on demand, we choose something more reliable and ignore that ability.
Or as every engi has done at some point – spam heal in the hope you will run faster.

Maybe its worth noting that with elixer x the transformations leave you without heals. ie Its suicide if your low.

Kyratic.7038:

Maybe its worth noting that with elixer x the transformations leave you without heals. ie Its suicide if your low.

That isn’t engineer specific though, any class with a transformation skill runs into that. (necros, eles, warriors, guardian tomes, ect)

Decklan.7540:

Lets just say you are a Guild Wars 2 developer. The team finally balances out and designs all of these great new ascended weapons. All of that work that was put in to create these weapons should be done at that point right? The answer is no. You still have to come up with an idea on how to implement these weapons for a single class, the Engineer. After hours of brainstorming, you might just give up, and task your team towards other goals, as spending copious amounts of time for less than 10 percent of your player population is not conducive to a happy player base.

If you’re using that infographic they released the other day as your source on Engineers composing 10% of player population, that number is based off characters created. There’s just no way that Guardians are equal to Necromancers in player population at level 80, or that Rangers are the second-most played profession.

I have a Ranger. He’s level 20. I have a Guardian. He’s level 80. In the eyes of that chart, they’re both equally a part of the population, though.

As for spending “copious amounts of time” for one class, I think they’ve already done that. They overhauled Ranger pets, didn’t they? And that was only one class mechanic. What makes you think that Engineers will be treated any differently? Sigils not working with kits was a major flaw with the class. It only affected our class. They still fixed it. Turrets, too, have received a plethora of fixes over the past few months. They still die too easily, yes. But the Healing Turret is now just as often used as the Med Kit is. Doesn’t that say something? They’ve put a lot of work into this class, a lot more than you’re giving them credit. They revamped most of our gadgets a couple months ago, making Rocket Boots one of the best escape tools across all classes in the game. And it’s a Blast finisher.

Engineers are in a very good place right now, and that was done by spending copious amounts of time on us.

Phineas Poe.3018:

If you’re using that infographic they released the other day as your source on Engineers composing 10% of player population, that number is based off characters created. There’s just no way that Guardians are equal to Necromancers in player population at level 80, or that Rangers are the second-most played profession.

Level 80 has extremely little meaning in GW2, though.
First, there’s sPvP/tPVP. Second. I know plenty players who only level incidentally, since GW2 largely removes the need to level unless you’re heavily into Fractals or WvW. You join guild mates doing stuff, and you gain levels in the process. That’s how most play. They level as they go along, but they never try to “reach 80”, because that’s one thing GW2 did well, erase most of the enforced get-to-max-level-asap.

Carighan.6758:

Phineas Poe.3018:

If you’re using that infographic they released the other day as your source on Engineers composing 10% of player population, that number is based off characters created. There’s just no way that Guardians are equal to Necromancers in player population at level 80, or that Rangers are the second-most played profession.

Level 80 has extremely little meaning in GW2, though.
First, there’s sPvP/tPVP. Second. I know plenty players who only level incidentally, since GW2 largely removes the need to level unless you’re heavily into Fractals or WvW. You join guild mates doing stuff, and you gain levels in the process. That’s how most play. They level as they go along, but they never try to “reach 80”, because that’s one thing GW2 did well, erase most of the enforced get-to-max-level-asap.

thats not true. Many people strive for level 80 because higher levels have the most traits. Some Traits are even locked away by level restrictions (aka the tiers).

if you like a certain role, you wont be very effective in that role unless you ave access to the last tier or even your elite skills which require level 30 in the first place. so Levels do matter. I like WvW and play there with my engi. its fun sometimes but usually when we have a group going.

Well, yes, as far as effectivity goes. But I highly doubt the majority – or even a significant portion – of a MMO’s players cares about that. They enjoy a game for what it offers as a pure form of entertainment mixed with a very heavy dose of social interaction.

One of the ways I talk people into trying GW2 is by highlighting how bite-sized the content is, and that’s exactly what entices them and enchants them to stay with it. But in turn, the focus on levelling and on “max level gameplay” is so small that they basically don’t care. Sure, they hit 80 on their own. But there’s no “Must… level… now!” like in many other MMOs.

Hence I wouldn’t discard the sub-80 characters really.

Carighan.6758:

Well, yes, as far as effectivity goes. But I highly doubt the majority – or even a significant portion – of a MMO’s players cares about that. They enjoy a game for what it offers as a pure form of entertainment mixed with a very heavy dose of social interaction.

One of the ways I talk people into trying GW2 is by highlighting how bite-sized the content is, and that’s exactly what entices them and enchants them to stay with it. But in turn, the focus on levelling and on “max level gameplay” is so small that they basically don’t care. Sure, they hit 80 on their own. But there’s no “Must… level… now!” like in many other MMOs.

Hence I wouldn’t discard the sub-80 characters really.

Guild Wars 2 is definitely a game that is just as much about the journey as it is about the destination, but I’m not sure I would agree with you that level 80 has very little meaning because of that.

There is a new dungeon you can run every 5 levels, but the best rewards for each dungeon are the level 80 exotics. There’s level-specific rares for each dungeon, but those are only worthwhile when you’re equal to the level of the dungeon itself … not that there’s anything special about them. The unique skins are only available for level 80 characters. You can take lower level characters into fractals as well, but unless you’re level 80 you cannot compile any Agony Resistance in your gear.

And a word about Guild Missions: unless you’ve actually explored a majority of the world on a high level character, you’re going to have a really bad time. I often run missions for my guild and sub-80 players are at many times left behind or significantly slow down the run because they don’t have waypoints unlocked. It’s just a sub-optimal experience for everyone.

As fun as dynamic events and world bosses are, they’re relatively trivial by design. You stand there and attack. Most meaningful content, including the Living Story, is balanced around level 80. PvP is balanced around level 80. Just because it sidekicks you to that level, it doesn’t change that fact. I’m not trying to “discard” anyone; I just find it hard to believe that Rangers are the second-most played profession in the game. A character leveled to 80 versus a character made, reaching level 2, and then never touched again are considered equal in “population” by that count.

Engineers aren’t a popular class. I don’t know how much of that has to do with our issues with Retaliation so much as that the average player picking up Guild Wars 2 just isn’t into the aesthetics of the Engineer in a game that offers more traditional fantasy achetypes. That classes like Warrior and Ranger are the most often chosen, or that Weaponsmithing is the most often chosen profession doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.

I just don’t think that it’s actually representative of the active player population.

Phineas Poe.3018:

If you’re using that infographic they released the other day as your source on Engineers composing 10% of player population, that number is based off characters created. There’s just no way that Guardians are equal to Necromancers in player population at level 80, or that Rangers are the second-most played profession.

Would you have rather me said that the engineer was one of the least played classes along with the Mesmer?

Phineas Poe.3018:

As for spending “copious amounts of time” for one class, I think they’ve already done that. They overhauled Ranger pets, didn’t they? And that was only one class mechanic.

I highly doubt a stat buff to ranger pets could be considered an overhaul. The AI is still the same, they still die incredibly easily to cleave, and many rangers are still generally annoyed with them. This thread is not about the ranger though, so before I get off topic I will stop right there.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Engineers are in a very good place right now, and that was done by spending copious amounts of time on us.

At no point in my post did I mention whether or not we were in a good spot, the entire post was about the extra time they were required to spend on us to bring us up to par, which includes the sigil update, and what may very well be a fiasco for the engineer when they introduce ascended weapons into the game.

To make things clear, an overhaul is something that requires a massive update to a previously programmed mechanic. Do you remember when we had to toggle auto-attack back on every time we switched to a kit? That wasn’t a problem with kits, it was a problem with bundles in general. All of the programming they did with bundles had to be rewritten and debugged all for the sake of one profession. Adding weapon stats and sigils to kits? Once again, an exclusive engineer problem that required code rewrites on bundles themselves.

I don’t have the game engine in front of me, nor do I confess to know how much work it required, but I do remember developers coming into these very forums and stating that they wanted to fix these things but that they would take time. And time is what it did take. 1 month for auto-attack on kits, about 3 months for sigils and weapon stats.

This is the exact same thing I am sure they are discussing right now with Ascended weapons and kits. Extra programming, extra work, extra manpower.

Once again, before you get ahead of yourself Phineas, I am only stating that from a producers standpoint, when they look at the breakdowns of work required, and they see an area of the project that requires more manpower for 1/8th of their class population, then you can be certain they might be posing the question for a redesign just to streamline it with the other classes.

I am not defending a decision like this if it is made, but they are running a business, and in the end, all that matters really is the bottom line. I have worked on many games that have had some of their best features cut or redesigned solely because of problems like this, and I highly doubt a successful company like anet functions any differently.

Then again, a redesign might never happen, and personally I would be much happier if one never happens, but logistically I could feasibly see why anet would want to overhaul this profession.

Phineas Poe.3018:

They’ve put a lot of work into this class, a lot more than you’re giving them credit.

When did I say that they’ve put little work into this class? My entire post was about them being forced to spend extra time on us because we are so different from every other profession in the game. You really need to stop twisting my words to try to rile me, it’s rude and impolite.

The real question is how they would bring the class in line with others? I imagine the simplest mechanism would be to reduce current kits to weapons, and then keep the unique toolbar mechanic. That would be an enormous change to how the class plays however and would require a substantial re-design of almost every aspect of gameplay. Would it be worth it to do that or would they just keep band-aiding the problem? I tend to think the latter. In the meantime I suspect the engineer meta will probably need to be focused on weapons for damage and kits for utility, because we are likely going to see scaling issues for several months at least.

Decklan.7540:

Would you have rather me said that the engineer was one of the least played classes along with the Mesmer?

I would rather you recognize that the population of a class has no basis on its actual importance to ArenaNet or their desire to improve them.

One year later, Warriors are the most played class in the game and they’re still well entrenched at the lowest rung of the ladder in tPvP.

Mesmers and Engineers may be the least created classes in the game, but that means little in recognition that Mesmer has always had a rock solid foundation in high-end PvE and that Engineer is one of the top professions in PvP in bunkering, roaming, and assaulting.

You insinuate that because Engineers compose 10% of the gaming population that ArenaNet will one day prefer to just streamline its mechanics, but there’s no basis for that conclusion. At all.

Decklan.7540:

Cut due to word count

I understand this thread is about the Engineer profession and not Rangers, but your assertion that developers would begrudgingly work on fixes that affect one class conflicts significantly with their track record.

They reworked Retaliation precisely because of how easily Guardians can stack it, and have acknowledged that they’re still not satisfied where the boon is at. They reworked Confusion in World v World precisely because of how easily Mesmers and Engineers compile it.

You may claim that tweaking a few stat values isn’t an overhaul, but tweaking a couple numbers would fix the majority of issues people have about Engineers as a class—least of all how easily an Engineer can die to Retaliation, or how quickly our turrets get destroyed.

Decklan.7540:

Phineas Poe.3018:

They’ve put a lot of work into this class, a lot more than you’re giving them credit.

When did I say that they’ve put little work into this class? My entire post was about them being forced to spend extra time on us because we are so different from every other profession in the game. You really need to stop twisting my words to try to rile me, it’s rude and impolite.

I’m not twisting your words to “rile you up.” I just don’t understand where you get the idea that ArenaNet has any interest in streamlining professions when they’ve put so much work into the Engineer. If my responses offend you, then maybe you should take a lap and re-read what I’m saying.

amiable.4823:

The real question is how they would bring the class in line with others?

Why do you think the Engineer is not already in line with other classes?

Phineas Poe.3018:

They reworked Retaliation precisely because of how easily Guardians can stack it, and have acknowledged that they’re still not satisfied where the boon is at. They reworked Confusion in World v World precisely because of how easily Mesmers and Engineers compile it.

Retaliation is a boon accessible by most professions. Confusion can be applied by a traited warrior, mesmer, engineer, ranger pets, and right now with the runes of perplexity pretty much the rest of the professions too. Applying auto-attack to kits, sigils to kits, and weapon stats to kits affected exactly one profession: The Engineer.

I am not going to apply a retort to the rest of your post, as you still appear to be misinterpreting me. Let me make an analogy to a kitchen/restaurant. Let’s say you have a menu with 8 items. All items use beef as a main ingredient. 7 of those items use lettuce, while one item uses bell peppers. Let’s say the item with bell peppers sells the least but it is still profitable. A new form of beef comes in (lets just say kobe beef) and it blends well with all the lettuce items but doesn’t really work with the one bell pepper item. As a business owner what do you do? Spend time and money on extra ingredients and kitchen staff just to make the bell pepper item work with the kobe beef or do you just change the bell pepper item and make it use lettuce?

I hope the analogy makes sense to you, and it will apply perfectly with the ascended weapons about to hit in the next live patch. Do you spend the time and money to make ascended weapons function the same way as they would with the other 7 professions or do you just, as I said above, change the bell pepper to lettuce?

Also, I will note that I replied to the OP with an answer as to why I THINK anet might redesign the engineer. All of it was theoretical. And in theory, adding in extra work to an area of a game that already works with 7/8th of your product would force 99% of the game companies out their to scrap or redesign. You took those words and turned them into a personal dissection of my comment when all I did was give the OP a reason WHY they would redesign the class not that they WILL redesign the class.

In fact, if you read the entire post you will see at the end that I would much prefer our class to stay as it is.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m not twisting your words to “rile you up.” I just don’t understand where you get the idea that ArenaNet has any interest in streamlining professions when they’ve put so much work into the Engineer. If my responses offend you, then maybe you should take a lap and re-read what I’m saying.

Once again, you are twisting my words. I never once said that anet has an interest in streamlining or redesigning the engineer. I gave the OP reasons why they would redesign the class if they actually did, which I would prefer they don’t. Maybe “you should take a lap and re-read what I’m saying.”

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

The real question is how they would bring the class in line with others?

Why do you think the Engineer is not already in line with other classes?

Perhaps I was inartful in that line. A better way to state it in response to Decklan is: How would they bring class mechanics line with others?

Dirame.8521:

elithrar.7143:

Provide a link? I think you can assume that if there’s zero discussion on this forum about it, then…

This was a while ago when they announced new weapons and traits for all classes coming before the end of the year.

If that was supposed to be in this:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/7597/Guild-Wars-2-ArenaNets-Master-Plan-for-2013.html

There are two mentions of the Engineer between the article and the comments thread below – one is “Engineer plus Hammer? Check.” and the other is somebody talking about leveling their Engineer to 80.

So, OP…how about a link to the thread? If this is true, then it’s something we should actually be aware of.

Decklan.7540:

Do you spend the time and money to make ascended weapons function the same way as they would with the other 7 professions or do you just, as I said above, change the bell pepper to lettuce?

That would depend on what that change would be. ArenaNet has already dedicated a lot of time to reworking gadgets and turrets, and has additionally spent a lot of time working on kits so they each play to their respective strengths. Again: their track record indicates that they have no qualms about dedicating time to fixing issues with the Engineer any more than they do with other classes, so again I’m asking: what makes you think they’d grow tired of it?

It’s not like the Engineer is the only class with problems. How long was Perfect Inscriptions bugged before they fixed it? How long did it take them to fix the stacking issues with Symbol of Swiftness? All classes have suffered from problems, and some of them still suffer from some very large balance issues, like Stronger Bowstrings, a trait that is intended to increase the range of Warrior Bow attacks, doesn’t work with Arcing Arrow and actually reduces the damage of your Dual Shot by 10%.

Fact is: we have no idea what’s going to happen when Ascended weapons come out. Kits could just as easily be considered Ascended on patch day, given that kits currently are automatically considered to be of the highest quality available for each level—at 1 or 80.

Decklan.7540:

You took those words and turned them into a personal dissection of my comment when all I did was give the OP a reason WHY they would redesign the class not that they WILL redesign the class.

In fact, if you read the entire post you will see at the end that I would much prefer our class to stay as it is.

I never insinuated that you wanted any of these changes; you simply produced a scenario that ArenaNet might grow tired of patching a class that composes “less than 10%” of the population, to which I’m responding to by asking: why, exactly?

Decklan.7540:

Once again, you are twisting my words. I never once said that anet has an interest in streamlining or redesigning the engineer.

Okay.

Decklan.7540:

I am sorry if this disheartening, but it’s true. And as much as I love the engineer to death, and think its class mechanic is the most fun thing in the game, arena net will eventually reach a breaking point with this profession and just redesign it all together.

What am I twisting?

amiable.4823:

Perhaps I was inartful in that line. A better way to state it in response to Decklan is: How would they bring class mechanics line with others?

If they wanted to do it quick, they would just give us a secondary weapon slot, some extra weapons to wield, and turn kits into activated spells with a cooldown, so instead of flamethrower kit you would just have two flamethrower spells, one from the utility slot and one from the toolbelt.
Do I want this to happen? Absolutely not.
Do I think this would be a horrible idea? Undeniably yes.
Can I see the justification behind such a redesign from a logistic business standpoint? Unfortunately I can.

Well this is just all pure speculation based on interpreting bugs and results. While engineer has a lot of unique capabilities compared to other professions, and it does seem like at times there are things missed, hopefully when they get fixed, they get fixed correctly so as to be as generally broad as possible. I’m not particularly worried about ascended weapons myself. If I’d been doing the fix, I would have it read and calculate based on whatever weapon was being used, or whatever internal composite is used (in the case of up/downscaling in instances or zones). Let the code that creates that composite from the weapon be common across all professions and then each profession’s tool can be tweaked. Or something like that.

But we don’t know what the code base looks like. We don’t know how hurried they were (or not). We don’t know anything about their manpower, schedule, sick days, design process, etc.

Thus, it’s kind of pointless worrywarting in my view. There are things that would be great to fix. Hopefully they fix them in smart ways that lend themselves to future tweaks and growth without undue maintenance. Sometimes crap code is written too. It’s all very much an interative process.