Guild Wars 2

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

When you balance around low skill players, the game will virtually play itself. It’s important to balance around high skill play because it sets the bar for others to meet in order to become a strong player.

Design precedes Balance, if you kitten up design, balance cant save you.

Apolo.5942:

But can balance be achieved if the game is fundamentally design flawed?. Its no big secret this games pvp failed miserably.

You have classes where 2/3ds of its signature skills are useless in 2/3rds of the game.

Classes static over time ground target skills in a game designed around fluid moving combat.

Gross advantage of ranged over melee in 2 out of the 3 game modes of the game.

The game is fundamentally design flawed it goes beyond simple balancing and its essentially dead pvp and wvw show it very much.

If the game design is so flawed that not even the best players can overcome it, then that’s what I consider fundamentally flawed, and thus it needs to start at the top.

Also, melee is dominant in 2 out of 3 game modes (pve and wvw), so not really sure what that comes from. I do agree that a lot of skills and traits are useless but Anet is moving to fix them. Though it does seem like pvp is a trainwreck in terms of balance regardless /shrug

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

But can balance be achieved if the game is fundamentally design flawed?. Its no big secret this games pvp failed miserably.

You have classes where 2/3ds of its signature skills are useless in 2/3rds of the game.

Classes static over time ground target skills in a game designed around fluid moving combat.

Gross advantage of ranged over melee in 2 out of the 3 game modes of the game.

The game is fundamentally design flawed it goes beyond simple balancing and its essentially dead pvp and wvw show it very much.

If the game design is so flawed that not even the best players can overcome it, then that’s what I consider fundamentally flawed, and thus it needs to start at the top.

Also, melee is dominant in 2 out of 3 game modes (pve and wvw), so not really sure what that comes from. I do agree that a lot of skills and traits are useless but Anet is moving to fix them. Though it does seem like pvp is a trainwreck in terms of balance regardless /shrug

2 years after lunch

Darn, that must be a long time to go without lunch.

In all seriousness though, that has no relevance on what would be good design anyways. Balance is a very difficult task with the meta always evolving.

Could it be said that they messed up in pvp; maye.

Apolo.5942:

Design precedes Balance, if you kitten up design, balance cant save you.

The design is fine; this game has some of the best combat you’ll find in a PC game, let alone an MMO. But you need both proper design and balance to have a good game.

ArchonWing.9480:

This is especially true when people start talking about nerfing classes they have never played and the most experience they’ve had is looking up that class’s traits and skills on the wiki.

This. The game is built on class traits beating other class traits. You have 14 points to spend to make what ever build you’d like. You better expect weaknesses to it. If your build does well against every single build, you have no weaknesses, expect a nerf.

The best teams distinguish the condition builds from the glass, from the bunks, and coordinate their players around the map. It’s why the ranking on spvp is so laughable compared to tpvp. That said, the good players know their classes’ limitations unlike most users running “meta builds”, thinking they can go head-to-head with any class and win.

Apolo.5942:

But can balance be achieved if the game is fundamentally design flawed?. Its no big secret this games pvp failed miserably.

You have classes where 2/3ds of its signature skills are useless in 2/3rds of the game.

Classes static over time ground target skills in a game designed around fluid moving combat.

Gross advantage of ranged over melee in 2 out of the 3 game modes of the game.

The game is fundamentally design flawed it goes beyond simple balancing and its essentially dead pvp and wvw show it very much.

Pretty sure this game wasn’t meant to be a “fluid motion” pvp. If that was the case they would have made a continuous motion of “capture the flag” instead of “area control”. I’m quite happy in my static symbols while I have 2 thief’s on me taking retaliation damage.
That said the Ranger is OP when it comes to moving orbs. I litterally saw him somersault three time’s and moonwalk to the node in 3 seconds.

Buran.3796:

Ynna.8769:

I’m not sure if I agree that roaming Guardians are useless and hopeless. They have a few drawbacks (slow as hell), but they can still contribute a lot. Granting boons and removing conditions is never not useful, neither is stacking Might, offering Swiftness and Stability or dealing good damage. (I’m not saying a single build can accomplish all those things).

You are thinking more in the “N vs N” small skirmish component of the term “roaming”, in which Guardians is ok. I was thinking more in the “solo roaming”, which means being able to cut down dolyaks, take camps and also to kill lone players without assist. And in those task, as lone roamer, Guardians have a big “nope” over His heads: they are slow moving around the map, they lack tools to properly disengage or evade encounters against the odds. If you build for sustain, you’ll not be able to kill enemies, if you build for the kills, you will not be able to sustain yoursefl enough. Other classes can outpace you while keeping enough punch to kill foes and enough sustain to being able to fight outnumbered if you have advantage in skill. That doesn’t happens using a Guardian.

Disagree w/ just about everything you said, Buran.

You want to go out and solo camps (ez) and kill lone players, build for it. I have zero issue taking out a fully upgraded camp within a couple minutes. And no, don’t say every other class can do it faster. Taht’s just flat out wrong.

Saiyan.1704:

the good players know their classes’ limitations unlike most users running “meta builds”, thinking they can go head-to-head with any class and win.

QFT.

I definatly don’t think guardians are the underdog, while we lack the diversity of other proffesions, are traits don’t synergise we’ll making almost half of theme useless, but, we can do everything to a high standard if played right, we can easily switch between damage to support to bunker with a few trait swaps and gear changes, and we can fill these roles to a high standard, despite what others may think, at the end of the day it comes down to the player and there ability as a player, timing is everything with guardians, from when to throw up that fight changing ageis, to when to give that ally who’s hp you’ve been watching while playing protection/regen, guardians really have the ability to turn a fight around, wether it’s from ressing a team mate, bringing incredible burst, or that more then welcome support