Guild Wars 2

mazut.4296:

How wide is the cone? Is it 90? I Didn’t test Guard much

yup plus if your enemy is on little higher or lower ground tome cone skills wont touch them. Awful firebrand design.

I guess this thread is probably the best place to leave feedback regarding mantras. I do think they are good. They provide strong buffs on a short CD. I will go one-by-one though there are two main issues that all manta’s have: the cone application makes them not very effective in supporting allies and the final charge is typically a waste.

Mantra of solace: Restring Reprieve is a good short CD to provide aegis (9.5 secs traited). Rejuvenating Respite though does little healing and if you use it you have to wait 30 secs to get the mantra back and 2.75 sec to cast it again. It does not work at all sPvP. Also, Restring Reprieve and Rejuvenating Respite worked with Liberator’s Vow trait and Smiter’s Boon, but did not work with Healer’s Retribution. Only the mantra of solace cast worked with Healer’s Retribution. This does not seem to be intended.

Mantra of Flame: Good damage. It is decent even without condi damage. In addition, this is one of the rare third charges that can be worth using. I would suggest lowering the CD to 15 secs.

Mantra of Lore: Surely great condi removal with short CD. This skill in particular the final charge should never be used. Why should I put my condi removal skill on 25 sec CD + 2.75 sec cast to remove 2 condi? Clarified Conclusion only provides 5 sec of reg over Opening Passage. Clarified Conclusion should remove 5 condi to be worth the risk, especially that this mantra will be used only in sPvP to begin with.

Mantra of Truth: This is cover condition. Yes, it provides decent debuffs, but the problem is utility slots are either used for damage or sustainability and this provides neither. I can see it somewhat useful playing a condi build in sPvP. Again Voice of Truth is not worth it.

Mantra of Potence: Incredibly strong buff on short CD. I felt this is more for solo PvE/small group kind of skill. Again, Overwhelming Celerity should not be used. Since you will lose the skill for 25 secs + cast.

Mantra of Liberation: Fairly strong CC break and stab. Just make sure to never use Unhindered Delivery.

I think the application of damage/condi mantras is okay. The ones used for support, I suggest the application goes from a cone to semi circle and possibly increasing the range a bit. Right now, they do not really provide group support. It is kind of hard to get an ally in a 300 range of a small cone.

Something needs to change with the final charges. The risk of putting the mantras on long CD + 2.75 sec cast time is not worth it at all on any mantra, except solace, which will only be used out of necessity.

As for mantra of solace in particular, I suggest buffing Rejuvenating Respite to 5-6K heal from where it currently is (3.1K), and make Healer’s Retribution work with Restoring Reprieve.

I agree that final charges need to stronger.

Mantra of Solace needs to be reduced to 20s cooldown, 30s is too restrictive to ever use the final charge.

That way, it has a nice balance of sustained healing, frequent aegis, as well as an easy proc of on-heal traits, but you are not punished severely if you use the final charge in a pinch.

Healing Signet is a good comparison, and that one you won’t even have to recast for 2.75s.

Ragnarox.9601:

mazut.4296:

How wide is the cone? Is it 90? I Didn’t test Guard much

yup plus if your enemy is on little higher or lower ground tome cone skills wont touch them. Awful firebrand design.

Are you sure it’s even 90 °? I rather had the impression it’s just 60 °.

CptAurellian.9537:

Ragnarox.9601:

mazut.4296:

How wide is the cone? Is it 90? I Didn’t test Guard much

yup plus if your enemy is on little higher or lower ground tome cone skills wont touch them. Awful firebrand design.

Are you sure it’s even 90 °? I rather had the impression it’s just 60 °.

I think its 90 but only on x axis, little higher or lower terrain and your f’s cone autoattack miss and your mantra miss. Weird mechanic.

I love the fact that they gave us a cone-shaped stun break for allies. By the time you turn to aim the cone, the cc will probably already be over. And if you get stunned alongside your allies, you better hope you were looking towards them, otherwise it’s useless.

I can get by the cones being just a little bit wider and work on small elevation.
But please for the love of god, stop complaining about the mantra’s as a whole, they are designed to be this preparation spell that you can use multiple times, there is no reason for you to spam all 3, just stick to using 2 charges max and you will never ever have to recast that mantra…
And if you do want to use the 3rd charge, then you actually get cooldown reduction at the cost of having to recast it, let me clarify:
The healing mantra has a 12sec recharge on it’s charges meaning in total you would need 36sec to fully recharge 3, the cooldown on the healing mantra itself is only 30sec and the cast time 2.5sec, meaning you actually GAINED 3.5seconds of cooldown, since when you recast the mantra all 3 charges will be up again.

Also, just live with the fact that a Chrono is the master of Quickness and Alacrity, you know what FB can do as one of the only classes/specs? Give a kitten-ton of Aegis and other defensive buffs. Really, the amount of Aegis you can pump out with the right traits is insane.

Make them all 360.

Make Mantra of truth a 600 ground targeted blink that applies swiftness. Remove the cover condis, its just for pvp and roaming in wvw. Adding this would be great for all game modes considering the meager range on mantras, even if they were 360.

Make Mantra of Libration also reset and recharge all mantras on the third charge. RF is the prefered elite in FB and making this change would make me skip RF for MoL.

Make Mantra of Solace also heal allies.

These 4 changes would improve the FB greatly in mobility but also increase the value of the weak third charges since you can recharge them.

Brutaly.6257, doesn’t that sounds like a fusion of shouts and meditations in one skill?

I see why they gave cone to mantras, they dont want FB to be a frontliner, its to help players to find a god positions behind alies, even so for what i noticed the cone was to tigh, needs at least 140-160 upwards.

OR make shout works in a 140-160 arc cone and give the 360 from shouts to mantras as trade off,and then buff shoutsa bit more (to avoid making mantras and meditations the only way to play the game….giving a 2-3 seconds stably to shouts as encouragement would be good for way to play :])

Aeolus.3615:

Brutaly.6257, doesn’t that sounds like a fusion of shouts and meditations in one skill?

I see why they gave cone to mantras, they dont want FB to be a frontliner, its to help players to find a god positions behind alies, even so for what i noticed the cone was to tigh, needs at least 140-160 upwards.

OR make shout works in a 140-160 arc cone and give the 360 from shouts to mantras as trade off,and then buff shoutsa bit more (to avoid making mantras and meditations the only way to play the game…. :])

Tbh its not the cone that i am having issues with, its the total area of effect.

I am all for having a cone but they have to increase the range. the area of effect in a 300 range cone is about 1/4 of a 600 cone.

Make the cone as shield #4 i would be satisfied.

A 90 degree cone with 300 range has approx an area of 700 square units

A 90 degree cone with 600 range has approx an area of 2800 square units

A 360 degree circle with 300 range has approx and area of 2800 square units.

A 360 degree circle with 600 range has approx an area of 11300 square units.

So even if function (instant self centered aoe with boons) is similar i think the skill level is very different and that is what sets Mantras apart.

In its current iteration i find FB more effective to play with Shouts instead of Mantras and i think the numbers speak for them self. In a Mantra build SyG is mandatory even though the 5 stacks of stability is bugged with quickness.

Hope i got the math correct.

EDIT the area of effect of the current mantras is 6% of the area of effect of a shout. If the cone is 90 degrees, i cant find any verification of that and if its 60 degrees its 4%.

Food for thoughts.

wich will make the DB rendered to useless if is beign targeted and trying to kite from anemies, all that support goes burned aways.

those….6% make me wonder i was being more useless to my group than i tough when i had to use some skill that were not helping the closest allies :\

Skuzz.6580:

I can get by the cones being just a little bit wider and work on small elevation.
But please for the love of god, stop complaining about the mantra’s as a whole, they are designed to be this preparation spell that you can use multiple times, there is no reason for you to spam all 3, just stick to using 2 charges max and you will never ever have to recast that mantra…
And if you do want to use the 3rd charge, then you actually get cooldown reduction at the cost of having to recast it, let me clarify:
The healing mantra has a 12sec recharge on it’s charges meaning in total you would need 36sec to fully recharge 3, the cooldown on the healing mantra itself is only 30sec and the cast time 2.5sec, meaning you actually GAINED 3.5seconds of cooldown, since when you recast the mantra all 3 charges will be up again.

Also, just live with the fact that a Chrono is the master of Quickness and Alacrity, you know what FB can do as one of the only classes/specs? Give a kitten-ton of Aegis and other defensive buffs. Really, the amount of Aegis you can pump out with the right traits is insane.

Nobody is complaining about Mantras as an mechanic or the ammo system.

ALL of the complaints have been about their subpar final charge and unusable cone shaped range.

Mesmers have been saying for 5 years that Mantras need urgent fixes, never happened. I wouldn’t get your hopes up

RabbitUp.8294:

jief.2509:

InsaneQR.7412:

Put the range on 750. This should be enough to be behind your teammates buffing them without being to far away to hop back in.
I need some clarification on mantras. I understand that correctly that mantras refill the charges over time if you do nout use the last charge?

And on mantras, they even stated on the stream that they have a long cast time but more charges and the charges come back quicker, so you aren’t meant to necessarily blow them all at once and wait for the cooldown. I think the idea is that with the third charge being more powerful, it comes with a drawback when using it.

The final charge comes with a triple drawback, you lose the steady supply of charges, you have to wait a significant cooldown and you have to channel the mantra again for 2.75s.

It’s too much and just not worth it all with the current itteration. The cooldowns should be shorter, at least the healing mantra should be 20s, as the real heal is tied to the final charge. As it is, it’s only there to be used for the quickness traits.

Guess what happens if you channel the mantra again, you have all charges back up!!
You actually gain time by going through all 3 at once at the cost of having to cast the mantra again.
Healing Mantra as example:
30sec cooldown 2.5sec cast time = 32.5sec
3x 12sec recharge = 36sec
If you spend the 3th charge you would have gained 3.5seconds at the only drawback of having to cast the mantra again.

In PvP you will most likely not use your 3rd charge, like ever, but in PvE you can get away with longer casts if you stand safe so using the 3th empowered one becomes alot more attractive to use.

With all the above you have to keep in mind that it is only a netto gain if you use all 3 charges in quick succession since if for example you use your 2nd charge 6sec after the first and your 3th 5sec after your 2nd you basically lost 11 seconds (since 1 second longer would have gained you a charge back).

The usage of Mantra’s is a player skill based thing, not only the timing as I have talked about, but also the limited range that everyone else has addressed (I agree that the range is abit short and/or not wide enought, but I actually like that it is a cone effect, which further more rewards player skill

Carighan.6758:

Mesmers have been saying for 5 years that Mantras need urgent fixes, never happened. I wouldn’t get your hopes up

Anet’s fix for the Mantra’s is including the ammunition system, which honestly is a big improvement

If you want to reward player skill, then how about also require aiming for every single skill in the game and turn this into a FPS?

There’s a difference between player skill and bad design. Tell me what exactly is the skill in standing behind your allies within sword auto attack range to use your elite mantra to break stun vs standing slightly in front of them?

If your allies happens to have moved half a second to the side before you? Well I guess I wasn’t effing skilled enough to predict when he would move and to what side?

Darknicrofia.2604:

If you want to reward player skill, then how about also require aiming for every single skill in the game and turn this into a FPS?

There’s a difference between player skill and bad design. Tell me what exactly is the skill in standing behind your allies within sword auto attack range to use your elite mantra to break stun vs standing slightly in front of them?

If your allies happens to have moved half a second to the side before you? Well I guess I wasn’t effing skilled enough to predict when he would move and to what side?

Sigh..
They designed FB with the mindset of them having to be in the middle of the fight to support their allies, hence why they went with cone skills, which works exactly the same way as almost all weapon attacks with a cleave componend do.. How can none of you see their design philosophy about this cone based playstyle…

You really can’t expect FB to play like a druid or any other basic support class that uses ground AoE’s or other circular AoE’s, the sooner you lot get over that the better for the sake of this whiny sub-forum.

Sure the cone might be a bit too short/not wide enough, you don’t hear me disagreeing on that I even advocate them increasing this a bit, but it being a cone is actually what got me excited about FB (having played Holy Pala in WoW where the cone healing spell was a big part of its playstyle, yes that cone was a bit wider and a lot longer but still, it required you to anticipate ally movement and position yourself to get the most out of your spell).

A mantra with 300 range and 360 degrees aoe has 25% area of a shout.

Seriously what is the problem. Range and cone have to have same practical impact as a shout.
90 degree and 600 range or 300 in 360 degree is an absolute requirement for the mantras to be used. And even with one of those setups they worse compared to shouts.

Skuzz.6580:

They designed FB with the mindset of them having to be in the middle of the fight to support their allies, hence why they went with cone skills, which works exactly the same way as almost all weapon attacks with a cleave componend do.. How can none of you see their design philosophy about this cone based playstyle…

First of all, to use cones, you have to stand behind your allies. That’s the problem, you are not in the middle of the battle, you have to be standing one step behind. At that range, you can’t use your melee axe, so the 2 core components of this elite spec directly clash.

And there’s no “design philosophy” behind this. It’s just a clunky mechanic that forces you to go out of your way to make it work, instead of flowing smoothly with the playstyle.

The devs themselves said that you would have to move back every time you wanted to cast the mantras, which makes for an awful experience, slow response time (especially when one of the mantras is a stun break), and removes the entire benefit of mantras, which is being instant casts, as you have to break your rotation every time you want to cast a mantra on your allies.

You really can’t expect FB to play like a druid or any other basic support class that uses ground AoE’s or other circular AoE’s, the sooner you lot get over that the better for the sake of this whiny sub-forum.

Why not? Why can’t I expect firebrand to act like a “basic support class”?

Is there something firebrand gets extra to make up for this limitation? Because that’s all it is, a limitation, skills that for all other classes are easy-to-use aoes, firebrand has to jump through hoops to use.

So what do firebrand gain? If they are meant to put themselves in harm’s way more than other supports, what’s their upside compared to those other supports?

This is how game design works, not making up stupid gimmicks for the sake of “flavour”.

Sure the cone might be a bit too short/not wide enough, you don’t hear me disagreeing on that I even advocate them increasing this a bit, but it being a cone is actually what got me excited about FB (having played Holy Pala in WoW where the cone healing spell was a big part of its playstyle, yes that cone was a bit wider and a lot longer but still, it required you to anticipate ally movement and position yourself to get the most out of your spell).

So it was nothing like mantras, then.

You seem to mix things up… In the last bit I was talking about the Cone effects… which in itself has nothing to do about the Mantra pre-casting.

“The devs themselves said that you would have to move back every time you wanted to cast the mantras”
Well yea, to CAST the mantra, you’d better not try that in the midst of combat, good luck trying to cast a 2.5sec spell… The mantra usage itself when it is already cast can be done in the mits of combat,
- Ooh 2 guys on my right need healing, I turn my camera some degrees and use my CONE spell..
Seriously, how hard is it to understand this type of play style… and why am I even trying to help you understand.

And if you think a heavy armored class with aegis, protection, stability, and retaliation at its disposal should be on the same power level “healing wise” as a ranged medium armor class that can heal, quickness, fury (more offensive instead of defensive boons) then you sir, need to re-evaluate.

Applying Aegis is like healing someone for 5-10k, yes Aegis is that strong, think about that next time you want to compare them with Druids.

Honestly, the effects themselves are more than fine if not even on the strong side.

Skuzz.6580:

“The devs themselves said that you would have to move back every time you wanted to cast the mantras”
Well yea, to CAST the mantra, you’d better not try that in the midst of combat, good luck trying to cast a 2.5sec spell… The mantra usage itself when it is already cast can be done in the mits of combat,

Not to prepare the mantra, to spend the charge. They themselves said that you are swinging your axe in melee range, and then step back to hit your allies with the mantra cones for quickness. This is an awful disjointed playstyle, and one that directly invalidates the point of mantras being instant casts, when you have to break your rotation and reposition.

- Ooh 2 guys on my right need healing, I turn my camera some degrees and use my CONE spell..
Seriously, how hard is it to understand this type of play style… and why am I even trying to help you understand.

Because this kind of playstyle doen’t work in real scenarios. In pvp, the people you are trying to heal with probably dodge or dash away if they are low. In wvw, you have extremely small coverage of the battlefield with your skills, which means you will affect 1-2 people at best.

It’s not just about turning your camera, it’s about having to be at 300 range away from them. Guardian already has cone spells, shield #4 and Receive the Lights. But those are 600 range. If mantras were 600 range cones, they would be fine.

And if you think a heavy armored class with aegis, protection, stability, and retaliation at its disposal should be on the same power level “healing wise” as a ranged medium armor class that can heal, quickness, fury (more offensive instead of defensive boons) then you sir, need to re-evaluate.

Heavy armor means nothing in this game.

Druid has access to Stone Spirit for huge protection uptime on 5 people, when guardian has to play hammer for that. Druid also has range and biggers AoEs.

If you think a class that’s already gated by clunky mechanics, long cooldowns, limited charges and short range skills should on top of that have less healing, not just less than druid, but less healing than dragonhunter, it’s you who needs to re-evaluate.

Applying Aegis is like healing someone for 5-10k, yes Aegis is that strong, think about that next time you want to compare them with Druids.

Only in the most handpicked of situations. Every big damaging ability in pve is either unblockable, multihit, leaves an DoT on the ground, or all of the above.

Skuzz.6580:

You seem to mix things up… In the last bit I was talking about the Cone effects… which in itself has nothing to do about the Mantra pre-casting.

“The devs themselves said that you would have to move back every time you wanted to cast the mantras”
Well yea, to CAST the mantra, you’d better not try that in the midst of combat, good luck trying to cast a 2.5sec spell… The mantra usage itself when it is already cast can be done in the mits of combat,
- Ooh 2 guys on my right need healing, I turn my camera some degrees and use my CONE spell..
Seriously, how hard is it to understand this type of play style… and why am I even trying to help you understand.

And if you think a heavy armored class with aegis, protection, stability, and retaliation at its disposal should be on the same power level “healing wise” as a ranged medium armor class that can heal, quickness, fury (more offensive instead of defensive boons) then you sir, need to re-evaluate.

Applying Aegis is like healing someone for 5-10k, yes Aegis is that strong, think about that next time you want to compare them with Druids.

Honestly, the effects themselves are more than fine if not even on the strong side.

Problem with cones is that they miss if you are not on the same ground, slight change of hight misses your heal and dmg and mantra. Thats the problem. Aegis is not 10k strong. Its like comparing Tome F2 skills to celestial avatar, cannot be compared cause CA always win. They need to change cone to do dmg and heal in y axis too.

And I found new bug, casting RF elite brings voice of Firebrand elite haha.

Skuzz.6580:

Darknicrofia.2604:

If you want to reward player skill, then how about also require aiming for every single skill in the game and turn this into a FPS?

There’s a difference between player skill and bad design. Tell me what exactly is the skill in standing behind your allies within sword auto attack range to use your elite mantra to break stun vs standing slightly in front of them?

If your allies happens to have moved half a second to the side before you? Well I guess I wasn’t effing skilled enough to predict when he would move and to what side?

Sigh..
They designed FB with the mindset of them having to be in the middle of the fight to support their allies, hence why they went with cone skills, which works exactly the same way as almost all weapon attacks with a cleave componend do.. How can none of you see their design philosophy about this cone based playstyle…

You really can’t expect FB to play like a druid or any other basic support class that uses ground AoE’s or other circular AoE’s, the sooner you lot get over that the better for the sake of this whiny sub-forum.

Sure the cone might be a bit too short/not wide enough, you don’t hear me disagreeing on that I even advocate them increasing this a bit, but it being a cone is actually what got me excited about FB (having played Holy Pala in WoW where the cone healing spell was a big part of its playstyle, yes that cone was a bit wider and a lot longer but still, it required you to anticipate ally movement and position yourself to get the most out of your spell).

Major thing you missed, there is a huge difference of between doing damage and applying buffs. If I am dealing damage, cone in-front of me makes sense. Both mantra of fire and truth work fine in terms of application cuz they are damage mantras. I am not sure how something like mantra of lore is supposed to be a group support thing. In all likelihood allies will not be in a 300 range 90 degree cone in-front of me.

As far as I have seen all buff mantras currently function as a personal buff. If that is the intention then they are working fine. If not (and probably is not) then they need an application system that allows them to be applied to allies, more likely than not, behind you.

If mantra support is supposed to be a thing, then AOE application is a must.

Aeolus.3615:

wich will make the DB rendered to useless if is beign targeted and trying to kite from anemies, all that support goes burned aways.

those….6% make me wonder i was being more useless to my group than i tough when i had to use some skill that were not helping the closest allies :\

Tbh the skill level to use mantras is absurd. But if you succeed (lots of variables that has to align) doing it properly the outcome can be hysterical.

I played an AH build with SyG and 4 mantras in pvp and i wish i had recorded it, i made some great come backs from almost zero health to almost full health pool.

At a couple of occasions me and and a friend was on point and got attacked by 3 or 4 attackers. Spamming aegis for like 5 seconds while they were buring their burst, popped mantras for regen, aegis and stability, popped ToJ for some insance aoe burn, popped ToR placed the water field, swapped to hammer and triggered it and swapped axe for some damage.

We were freaking standing there with full health and got 4 down in 10 seconds. This wasnt the norm though but i think it showed me the potential for firebrand at those few occasions. The issue is that the mantras is just to difficult to use in a dynamic environment. Everything have to allign for them to actually work.

I topped both damage and healing in most my games as well. The reason for that is that i very seldom actually used all my skills/pages in the tomes, in ToR i used max two skills (water field and skill one.)