Guild Wars 2

./bug squat

Falseprophet.1502:

RabbitUp.8294:

To anyone that mains guardian, it’s blatantly obvious why torch won’t be a must-use weapon even if axe is purely condi.

Wow. Talk about serious cherry picking and forgetfulness. Your perception is clearly your reality. I am in serious doubt you even play Guardian by the way you reply.

Explain to me how shield or even focus, after you even stated that “torch is already mandatory for power builds,” and yet moments later have the gull to even deny that torch will be a must use for a condition based build since it’s the only offhand weapon that applies any condition, will see any use in PvE if this elite specialization will be a condition based specialization?

I said torch is mandatory for DPS builds. You seem to forget that torch is a pretty good power weapon, too, and does more damage than shield and focus even on power stats. Yet, shield and focus are seeing use.

And that’s because shield is used for cc and projectile hate, not damage. Focus has good damage, too, but more importantly it offers some survivability at the same time.

So, the two weapons will be used for the same reasons regardless of what axe does, in the same modes they are used now. Also, firebrands are not forced to use axe to begin with.

RabbitUp.8294:

Falseprophet.1502:

RabbitUp.8294:

To anyone that mains guardian, it’s blatantly obvious why torch won’t be a must-use weapon even if axe is purely condi.

Wow. Talk about serious cherry picking and forgetfulness. Your perception is clearly your reality. I am in serious doubt you even play Guardian by the way you reply.

Explain to me how shield or even focus, after you even stated that “torch is already mandatory for power builds,” and yet moments later have the gull to even deny that torch will be a must use for a condition based build since it’s the only offhand weapon that applies any condition, will see any use in PvE if this elite specialization will be a condition based specialization?

I said torch is mandatory for DPS builds. You seem to forget that torch is a pretty good power weapon, too, and does more damage than shield and focus even on power stats. Yet, shield and focus are seeing use.

And that’s because shield is used for cc and projectile hate, not damage. Focus has good damage, too, but more importantly it offers some survivability at the same time.

So, the two weapons will be used for the same reasons regardless of what axe does, in the same modes they are used now. Also, firebrands are not forced to use axe to begin with.

I expected this response. No real answer to my question about how shield or focus would see more play time over torch in a condition based specialization. To your point of Firebrands not being forced to use axe to begin with, how would scepter, greatsword, hammer, or any of the other weapons be able to compete with no condition damage tied to them as opposed to the axe that you are so inclined to be condition? Here is your quote to accommodate you: “I have no doubt axe is condi, all our weapons are pure power, how could it be anything else?”

I acknowledged that torch is mandatory for optimal dps for POWER builds (see my quote below). Hell, you could not even address my original quip about how poorly torch is designed. Have you ever used it? How is the accuracy of torch 4? How many times do you use torch 5?

Falseprophet.1502:

Sure, torch is required for optimization, but have you ever played a Power build in PvP/WvW with torch? No, because it’s not designed well, (my point in my original post) which you do not address, instead you point out something that is so blatantly obvious to anyone who mains Guardian.

My recommendations are to prevent gameplay that forces players to play one way. You clearly do not care to read before making posts so innately ridiculous.

Sigh.

Sounds like you have trouble with your reading comprehension. But your responses amuse me, so I’ll bite.

If you remove axe from the equation, guardians are already forced to play one way if you are going condi. You are using the weapon with the most hits per second.

All classes have dedicated condi weapons, it’s not a novel concept. If anything, firebrand is lucky to have the VoJ passive that lets every weapon do burning, and will probably have a condi tome in F1, so that regardless of weapon, they will always be some condi pressure.

If all you care about is DPS, then torch, with all its flaws, is the obvious offhand to take.

Shield, as would generally be expected, does not add a lot to your DPS. Shield of Judgement avoids being a DPS loss over autoattacking, but only barely (unless your leveraging aegis-related traits like Shattered Aegis). SoA is a DPS loss. In a condi-based spec, SoJ contributes to Justice passive procs.

For focus… Ray of Judgement often IS a DPS loss, depending on how it bounces, and it may actually benefit from a condition build (a hit is still a hit for the purpose of Justice passive procs, even if it’s a weak hit). Shield of Wrath adds to your DPS if the blast triggers, since it has instant activation it won’t cut into your autoattack DPS, but with a long recharge it doesn’t add a huge amount to sustained DPS – it’s not really what it’s taken for.

draxynnic.3719:

I don’t think it adds much uniqueness, and I don’t think a single-target heal from a bounce that you can’t control and often won’t hit the person who really needs it – particularly if that person is backing away – is really going to be as useful as you seem to think it will be. Particularly since skills that bounce to allies also have the potential of simply bouncing between enemies and not providing the support role you envision at all unless there’s only one enemy to hit.

It wouldn’t be shockingly unique, but it’d still be far more interesting than Wave of Farming. As long as the projectile is coded to target low-health allies, it wouldn’t need to be controlled. Either way, I just used Light of Judgment because it’s a pre-existing underwater skill for guardians on a weapon that’s very similar to the staff. I just want a supportive auto-attack that matches up with the 1200 range that most of the staff has. If something like Water Blast replaced Wave of Farming instead of LoJ, I’d be indifferent. In fact if Tome of Courage/the healing tome gets butchered, I’d rather a rebalanced version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heal_Area become the staff’s #1 skill.

draxynnic.3719:

I’d also note that guardian, by theme, is supposed to be a profession that fights or supports up close or at least in the midline, not hanging out at the back with the staff elementalist and the longbow ranger.

Maybe that used to be a thing, but not anymore, especially not with dragonhunters being a thing and tomes on the horizon. Good riddance to boot, being bad at something isn’t exactly the most exciting “theme” for a profession anyway, especially when even warriors have two baseline ranged weapons. Either way, the range restriction “theme” was basically never a thing on most of the guardian’s supportive capabilities anyway. The only thing stopping the staff from being a complete ranged support weapon is the auto-attack, and Empower to a much lesser extent.

draxynnic.3719:

2. I think RabbitUp and I have both explained why you don’t see staff often in PvP. It’s not the autoattack, it’s that the weapon as a whole is not suited for the current PvP environment.

And I don’t agree. I don’t think it’s just the auto-attack; there are a few reasons it isn’t used frequently, but the garbage auto-attack is probably the biggest reason.

draxynnic.3719:

3. Like I said, if all you want to do is get one hit in, sure. Getting all five (or one on each available enemy, if less than five) requires positioning. I’ve already mentioned line attacks, and I don’t consider ‘keep yourself at range’ to be a particularly taxing decision to make (generally, with a ranged weapon, you want to be close to the limit of your effective range anyway because that’s safer, unless you have a reason not to – which, granted, a greatsword mesmer might, because against a single target with no allies nearby, Mirror Blade is most effective up close… on the other hand, mesmers can summon allies). However, those examples are irrelevant, since you’re suggesting a bouncing projectile, where generally the limit of consideration is ‘target an enemy that will give the attack an opportunity to bounce into a desired secondary target’.

Again, Staff #1 doesn’t even need you to be locked on. I’m not saying a bouncing auto-attack would be particularly skillful or brainy; I’m saying that it’d be skillful or brainy in contrast to the most brainless auto-attack in the game. There’s a reason why it’s used to farm things. You don’t need to think, you don’t need to aim, you don’t need to lock on, you just mash the button and you’ll hit things.

I’d rather not have an auto that needs an enemy target to work. And single target on top of that. It won’t even have good numbers (higher than aoe healing autos anyway), because it’s going to be abused in pvp bunker builds and nerfed.

Druid needs a target, but it has no travel speed, heals in a line, and the staff has plenty of healing options and even a water field.

Fashion Mage.3712:

As long as the projectile is coded to target low-health allies, it wouldn’t need to be controlled.

I’m not saying a bouncing auto-attack would be particularly skillful or brainy; I’m saying that it’d be skillful or brainy in contrast to the most brainless auto-attack in the game.

So your solution to increasing the skill required to use the auto attack, is a skill that determines who to heal for you?

A bouncing attack isn’t exactly brainy. If you’ve got autotarget on, you don’t need to choose a target and it will hit something within 1200 units – Wave of Wrath at least requires you to be positioned and oriented to use it appropriately. There’s little choice involved in a bounce when it’s the server that decides where the bounce goes, whatever criteria it might have for doing that.

Here’s the thing: I find the guardian staff, as it is, fun. Often underperforming in the current balance, granted, but fun nonetheless. I would find it a lot less fun if it was changed as you suggest. Obviously, you disagree. However, the playstyle of supporting from long range is already supported by several weapons and builds in the game – you’ve already cited a few yourself, and I could cite a few more. I really don’t see why a playstyle I enjoy playing should be deleted from the game in order to create Yet Another Max Range Support Weapon. Particularly since the staff already has an ability to strike at 1200 range through Orb of Light, and buffing that skill as I suggested could well serve to make it a perfectly serviceable long-range support weapon while still retaining the option to get in closer for greater impact.

Which, again, was the theme of the core guardian’s ranged weapons (for scepter, the downside of staying at long range is the risk of failing to hit due to the low projectile speed). Yes, dragonhunter longbow works differently. Part of the whole point of elite specialisations is an opportunity to mix existing professions with elements that don’t fit the core flavour.

At the bottom line – you asked why I would be sad to see Wave of Wrath go. I answered. You’re now trying to argue that my opinion is invalid. I don’t see this going anywhere productive, particularly since staff is not the topic of this thread.

Ghotistyx.6942:

So your solution to increasing the skill required to use the auto attack, is a skill that determines who to heal for you?

Nope; that’s one of my suggestions to make it an interesting and fitting auto-attack though. What part of “I’m not saying a bouncing auto-attack would be particularly skillful or brainy; I’m saying that it’d be skillful or brainy in contrast to the most brainless auto-attack in the game.” didn’t you understand? Either way it still requires more thought than Wave of Farming.

draxynnic.3719:

A bouncing attack isn’t exactly brainy. If you’ve got autotarget on, you don’t need to choose a target and it will hit something within 1200 units – Wave of Wrath at least requires you to be positioned and oriented to use it appropriately. There’s little choice involved in a bounce when it’s the server that decides where the bounce goes, whatever criteria it might have for doing that.

Here’s the thing: I find the guardian staff, as it is, fun. Often underperforming in the current balance, granted, but fun nonetheless. I would find it a lot less fun if it was changed as you suggest. Obviously, you disagree. However, the playstyle of supporting from long range is already supported by several weapons and builds in the game – you’ve already cited a few yourself, and I could cite a few more. I really don’t see why a playstyle I enjoy playing should be deleted from the game in order to create Yet Another Max Range Support Weapon. Particularly since the staff already has an ability to strike at 1200 range through Orb of Light, and buffing that skill as I suggested could well serve to make it a perfectly serviceable long-range support weapon while still retaining the option to get in closer for greater impact.

Which, again, was the theme of the core guardian’s ranged weapons (for scepter, the downside of staying at long range is the risk of failing to hit due to the low projectile speed). Yes, dragonhunter longbow works differently. Part of the whole point of elite specialisations is an opportunity to mix existing professions with elements that don’t fit the core flavour.

At the bottom line – you asked why I would be sad to see Wave of Wrath go. I answered. You’re now trying to argue that my opinion is invalid. I don’t see this going anywhere productive, particularly since staff is not the topic of this thread.

I never said it was brainy, I said it was more brainy than something that is brainless, which isn’t saying much. There’s still definitely more thought in “I should use this to heal a low health ally” than “I should use this to farm”.

“Yet another”. Go ahead and list the number of viable long-ranged support builds in the game, and no, druids and tempests are not long-ranged support builds, they literally sit on top of people to heal them because their best heals are melee-ranged. Then there are Ventari revenants who are so clunky that they’re borderline unusable (and don’t have a long-ranged support weapon). Meanwhile the game is overloaded with close and mid ranged support.
What “Playstyle”? You mean the “playstyle” of farming mobs in WvW for bags?
Now that I think about it, Wave of Wrath with some healing attached would be a way better fit for the mace, since that actually is a close-ranged support weapon.

You’re free to have an opinion, and I’m free to have mine, and since this is a forum, don’t get triggered when discussion arises from it. The staff is relevant to this thread because tomes are going to be long-ranged support (assuming they haven’t been butchered), yet the guardian only has a semi long-ranged support weapon. In fact I believe RabbitUp was the one who brought up the issue, and I personally think it’s a valid concern.

I don’t see how guardian’s staff 1 is more brainless than any other auto in the game. Don’t get me wrong, it is pretty brainless, as you say you point at the general direction of the enemy and click 1, but that’s what all ranged autos are.

Again, I don’t find anything mechanically at fault with the way it works. Adding a healing component to it is fine. Druid gets 1200 narrow line heal, guardian can get a 600 wider heal. As an additional balance, they can make it heal only if you damage an enemy with it.

I’m not being triggered. I’m making the observation that I don’t think this argument is going to get anywhere and we should probably stop derailing the thread.

I will say elementalist staff and druid, actually. Yes, you get benefits for getting into closer range. That’s a balancing factor – generally speaking, across the game, the closer you are to someone, the more you can do. This is why melee weapons almost always do more damage than long-ranged weapons (the exceptions have greater defenses instead).

Elementalist and druid are more limited in their healing capabilities if they remain at a standoff distance. Even Ventari revenants have more ability to support their allies if they’re willing to get in close themselves. This is the price for staying at a distance from the enemy (or, at least, the ally under attack) where you are, in most cases, safer. Any hypothetical future guardian support build will almost certainly have the same balance consideration.

(To a lesser extent, mesmer and necromancer can both support at 1200 range, although neither are focused on healing.)

To bring things back to an area that’s even tangentially related to the topic:

Presently, basically all of the guardian’s support options have a 600 range limit, so the autoattack having a 600 range limit is just establishing how close a guardian should be for optimal support. You can theorise that the Firebrand will come with longer-range stuff all you like, but 1) that’s speculation, they may shorten the ranges even if they do base the ‘healing tome’ on the old Tome of Courage, 2) a core weapon should not be designed with the assumption that it’s being used with an elite specialisation, it’s the elite specialisation weapon that should be so designed, and 3) whatever may come with the Firebrand, they’re still going to have, in their toolbox, a set of support skills that are only useful within 600 units from core guardian, so unless the Firebrand stuff is ridiculously overpowered compared to the core guardian stuff, there’ll still be motivation to stay close to who you’re supporting. A weapon that encourages you to be within 600 units, while still having options with a longer range, seems entirely fitting for core guardian. And let’s not forget that Orb of Light has a 3s recharge – I think simply throwing that on recharge actually gives you higher damage than an elementalist using Water Blast, assuming the orbs hit (and the orbs pierce, so it multiplies against multiple targets). Believe me, I’ve used Orb of Light as a substitute long-ranged autoattack a few times. It works. It’s not optimal, sure, but you can’t have everything.

RabbitUp.8294:

I don’t see how guardian’s staff 1 is more brainless than any other auto in the game. Don’t get me wrong, it is pretty brainless, as you say you point at the general direction of the enemy and click 1, but that’s what all ranged autos are.

Let’s be blunt here, we’ve been arguing over whether something takes 1% of your brain capacity or 1.1%. Autoattacks really aren’t supposed to take a lot of thinking beyond fairly basic positioning – it’s the other skills that are intended to take thought. A long-range autoattack isn’t much different from a medium-range cone in this respect.

A wide-angle, 600u wave is far more unique and interesting than yet another bouncing projectile. Guardians already have such a bouncing, healing projectile in Focus 4. Adding a healing component has been talked plenty about before and would be an easy, flavorful way to increase the support Staff can give. Not to mention, a bouncing attack that auto-bounces to the lowest-health ally is almost playing the game for you. Why would this skill suddenly be coded to be the most efficient it could possibly be and require demonstrably less thought than the previous state? Auto-attacks are never meant to be particularly interesting or have the razzle-dazzle. Auto-attacks are what you do when you don’t have, or don’t want, to do anything more interesting. They’re the bread and butter, not the dessert and garnish.

Please don’t take away my loot wave. I love it combined with traited F1.

For Staff suggestions (mentioned similar stuff elsewhere):

• Make AA heal for a small amount when your ally is affected by Might. Wouldn’t be too overpowered and required at least some work to function. However, I feel that Mace should be the go to for close combat healing.
• Blast finisher on #2.2 would be great. If that’s too much, a Blind on the orb would be very helpful as well and give the Staff some more soft CC/defense.
• #3 should move with the Guardian or get the Temporal Curtain treatment as mentioned above. We know they got the tec for moving fields and it makes sense for Symbol of Swiftness.
• The trait needs to be reworked and boon duration put somewhere else. As I see it, they could easily merge Empowering Might with Honorable Staff. The trait on its own is more of a filler since even with heavy investment in boon duration it’s rather underwhelming. Plus, merging it would marry well with my AA suggestion.

just a random tough, i imagine a trait or even a simple mantra utility similiar with this
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Flame

Conditions on u will add initiative pips nothing more…

RabbitUp.8294:

I don’t see how guardian’s staff 1 is more brainless than any other auto in the game. Don’t get me wrong, it is pretty brainless, as you say you point at the general direction of the enemy and click 1, but that’s what all ranged autos are.

Well actually most ranged autos tend to have some requirements. Most long-ranged attacks can be reflected, the ranger’s longbow and the mesmer’s greatsword both deal more damage at maximum range, Fireball and especially Water Blast from the ele’s staff are better off being manually aimed almost all of the time, the rev’s hammer’s auto is a projectile finisher, the druid’s auto needs to be aimed to heal as many people for AF generation, and all of the above can be avoided simply by hiding behind something as well. Those are just the 1200 range weapons too. You don’t need to be a genius to use them, but it’s certainly harder than using Wave of Farming.

Xaylin.1860:

Please don’t take away my loot wave.

Like I’m sorry, but that’s just sad because it really is just a loot wave.

draxynnic.3719:

I will say elementalist staff and druid, actually. Yes, you get benefits for getting into closer range. That’s a balancing factor – generally speaking, across the game, the closer you are to someone, the more you can do.

Okay, let’s take a look at all of the decent healing druids and eles have at 1200 range:

Eles:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_Blast
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Geyser
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain (Water Field)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_Trident

Druids:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancestral_Grace
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sublime_Conversion (Water Field)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seed_of_Life (which heals for a miniscule amount, but I’ll put it here anyway)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lunar_Impact
Even though the 1200 range on these druid skills is just a novelty and they’re all just used in melee. Not including https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cosmic_Ray because that’s a joke skill, and Staff 1/2 because those just generate AF via tiny healing.

Now let’s take a look at all of the decent healing druids and eles have at closer ranges:
Eles:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Wash_the_Pain_Away!%22
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tidal_Surge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Rebound!%22
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Bastion (<- turns all auras/shouts (which are close-ranged) into heals)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Ripple
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Mist

Druids:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Alignment_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rejuvenating_Tides
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Rejuvenation_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Empowerment_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cultivated_Synergy
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Verdant_Etching (<- turns all glyphs (which are close-ranged) into heals)

Can you see the difference? Because I can. These aren’t builds that work at long-range but pop into melee range occasionally, these are builds that function in melee range but have a few long-ranged abilities that are often just used in melee range anyway. Not only that, but their longest range heals all tend to be very weak with the exception of the ele’s water staff and Lunar Impact. I mean these builds don’t even have 600 range healing a lot of the time. Again, these are not even remotely long-ranged builds, do not refer to them as such.

draxynnic.3719:

Elementalist and druid are more limited in their healing capabilities if they remain at a standoff distance. Even Ventari revenants have more ability to support their allies if they’re willing to get in close themselves.

Ventari revs can pop in to give damage reduction from Jallis (which isn’t even melee range) then they should go straight back to 900 range. Any healing their staff gives is garbage and literally a waste of energy if you’re using Ventari.

draxynnic.3719:

Any hypothetical future guardian support build will almost certainly have the same balance consideration.

Too late, guardians can already heal and support at range far better than eles or druids can. The recent buffs to all of the guardian’s various long-ranged support abilities are probably an indicator of what tomes are going to do.

draxynnic.3719:

Presently, basically all of the guardian’s support options have a 600 range limit, so the autoattack having a 600 range limit is just establishing how close a guardian should be for optimal support. (Snip)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purging_Flames
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Command_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Merciful_Intervention
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Mercy
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Courage
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orb_of_Light
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Swiftness
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Line_of_Warding
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ray_of_Judgment

Doesn’t look like “basically all” to me. I think it’d be more accurate to say that basically all guardian support doesn’t go below 600 range. Ironically, for guardians, the lower the range the weaker the support. If guardians had a 1200/900 range profession mechanic, heal skill, and supportive auto-attack, you’d be able to have a full long-ranged support build with guardians. No other profession can even come close to that.

Like I said, it’s part of the balancing of Guild Wars 2 that the closer you are, the more impact you can have. This generally applies to DPS as well – professions whose top DPS is ranged are exceptions to the rule, and generally pay for it with a lack of defensive skills on those weapons while their melee sets are more defence-oriented.

Druids and elementalists can support from long range range (don’t think I haven’t noticed that you’ve cherry-picked only skills which have or can have healing for the druid and elementalist, and ignored other forms of support) – however, if they’re willing to take the additional risk of getting closer, they can do more. This isn’t Guild Wars 1 where monks sit on the backline.

Listing a whole bunch of skills doesn’t prove anything. What matters is how and, since Guild Wars is based on limited skillbars, if they are used. In practice, the support skills that guardians have taken in practise tend to be shouts (600 range) and, when relevant, projectile hate (which calls for the group to congregate in the protected area). Largely because, while shouts may have less effect per activation, the recharges are low enough that they provide more support overall.

It amazes me that you’re trying to claim Merciful Intervention as a long-range skill when the whole point of the skill is to get you close to an ally that needs your support.

Regardless, we could keep going back and forth for months. We’ve both presented our arguments. You’re not going to persuade me on this, and it’s pretty clear you’re digging your feet in, so I’m not going to waste any more time on this.

Nonsense, and you seem to have already acknowledged that is by taking note of the various long-ranged builds with high damage. The reason ranged builds aren’t used that frequently is because most PvE content simply does not require range, it just needs high DPS, hence why glass staff eles are often used at near-melee range in PvE. In PvP, you need point-holders, so ranged builds aren’t as frequent but they still pop up. This isn’t the only game where ranged things have weak self-defense, because range is their self-defense and every game balances range like that. In fact healers are almost always balanced around range because strong healers also being tanky makes them broken, so they have to work at range (if they have monk-level healing).

No, it proves quite a lot. You claimed that virtually all guardian support is 600 range at most, and I posted that list, thus factually proving you wrong. Whether a skill is ranged is irrelevant to whether it’s properly balanced and thus used or not, although consecrations are probably used about as frequently as shouts are, so I’m not sure what your point is in that regard either way.
This isn’t GW1 where monks sit in the backline, because the game is flooded with point-blank 600 range support. Meanwhile you’re complaining about “even more” long-ranged support being added.

How exactly have I cherry-picked anything, at most I missed 1 or 2 support skills, I even included Ancestral Grace even though in the same post you criticize that I included Merciful Intervention as a long-ranged skill (which it is, for different reasons) and then don’t make that same criticism to Ancestral Grace.
Druids and eles are literally bunkers in PvP, let’s stop pretending that they’re long-ranged builds please. Support eles are mid-ranged at most, since the only substantial long-ranged support eles have is the water staff and 1.25 glyphs.

As for Merciful Intervention being a long-ranged skill, a lot of the time it functions like Blink or Lightning Flash, although I don’t see the point in trying to discuss the more intricate uses of MI with you.

You clearly have something personal against anything ranged, so yes, I suppose this discussion really is quite pointless.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Nonsense, and you seem to have already acknowledged that is by taking note of the various long-ranged builds with high damage.

Those professions have something in common – their close-ranged weapons are defensively oriented. For professions which have a close-in weapon which is oriented towards all-out offense, that weapon is almost invariably higher DPS than the ranged options. (The exception is engineer, since grenades out-DPS bomb kit currently, but that’s partly because bombs are power and the balance between power and conditions is out of whack at the moment… and a grenade engineer will still include bombs in their rotation to maximise DPS.)

There is a general balance to be had between impact (which can include DPS and team support), range, and personal survivability. Given the same degree of personal survivability, a close-range weapon will have more impact than a long-range one. This is how the game is balanced.

You clearly have something personal against anything ranged, so yes, I suppose this discussion really is quite pointless.

No, I have “something personal” against taking a unique weapon (no other weapon in the game has the combination of a close-in flamethrower-style auto with a long-ranged attack with a low recharge that allows you to operate in a standoff role if needed) that many people enjoy in its current state and making it more mainstream because it doesn’t fit some people’s personal playstyle.

If you were suggesting a new weapon with this sort of capability, I would not object. However, I would observe that such a weapon will probably be in a similar situation to what you complain about for druid and elementalist staff – you CAN support from maximum range if you want to, but to maximise your impact you’ll need to adult up and get closer to the action.

Short of anything new enough that I feel it needs a response, I consider this to be my closing argument on the subject. We’ve both presented our positions sufficiently for a reader to make their own decision.

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

Close-range weapons need more defensive skills because they don’t have range to protect them. Again, being ranged doesn’t make something have less of an impact and ANet does not design things that way, otherwise things like staff eles would not have top DPS. Being ranged means that range is your defense, and thus ranged weapons typically have self-defensive or mobility skills that aren’t as strong as close-range weapons’ defenses or mobility. Although, it’s somewhat ironic that the ele’s staff has more defensive options than a warrior’s greatsword considering that the staff is ranged and deals more damage, so even then there are exceptions.

Just looking at some top DPS raid builds on Metabattle:
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_DPS_Condition – Uses a longbow
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_A/T_SB_Condition – Uses a shortbow and axe/torch
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Staff_DPS_ – Uses a staff
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Viper_Horror – Uses a scepter
Your perception on how they balance ranged weapons doesn’t seem to match with how ranged weapons are balanced in reality. I suppose it’s worth mentioning that longbow rangers deal a very high damage at 1500 range as well, and p/p thieves deal tons of damage from 900 range as well (both of their weaknesses being reflection of course). You can bet that the thief’s upcoming elite spec is going to be dealing a ton of damage from 1200 range or more.

Firstly, https://4chanmemeandmotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/unique_-_just_because_you_are_unique_does_not_mean_you_are_useful.jpg?w=720 . Not that it being a cone is enough to make it qualify as “unique” in my eyes. Secondly, what makes the staff unique is that it’s a weapon dedicated strongly to support (and control to a lesser extent) in a game that has very few supportive weapons. Lastly, the only thing people “enjoy” about Wave of Wrath is its ability to farm. The staff is generally not a popular weapon except with those who want to support as a guardian, and those who want to farm, but I couldn’t give a kitten about the latter.

I’d be perfectly fine with a new weapon for this kind of thing, but apparently the devs thought condition cancer was more important, and as RabbitUp(?) pointed out, we already have two support weapons that just need a few fixes to function as full-on support weapons. The mace already fills the spot of a close-range support weapon, but the main reason that doesn’t see use is because it needs toughness and healing power to function (which the Cleric amulet offered, and then got removed, presumably because ANet doesn’t want the bad design of particularly tanky things healing for large amounts).
The reason eles and druids support in closer ranges isn’t because of their weapons, it’s because their (and this goes double for druids) best healing skills are >600 range. They simply cannot keep allies alive from major threats from a huge distance, and thus they never stay at far distance. On top of this, the need to be in close-range also orients other parts of the build towards self-survivability whereas normally they’d be able to take supportive utilities (if they have any at long-range) due to having the “defense” of being ranged. The closest guardians currently need to get to offer substantial support is 600 range, but they have a lot of strong supportive effects that go above that range (despite what people might think).

If this were a formal debate, there are two points of information I would raise:

First, when comparing weapons between professions, you need to consider the characteristics of the professions. Elementalists are inherently more vulnerable because they’re the profession with the lowest base health and armour, while warriors have the most. Taking this into account, the elementalist staff has still compromised survivability compared to warrior greatsword.

Second, condi necromancer uses ranged weapons because they don’t have a condi melee weapon. Mesmers are in a similar boat. Presently, these are top DPS purely because the balance between power and condi in raid situations is out of whack since the nerf to seaweed salad, creating a meta where the top DPS for any profession with a viable condi build is a condi build. If you don’t include consumables, the melee builds (for both) still do the most damage. This is probably why ArenaNet is planning to give guardian a condi weapon – so that in the future, they don’t get completely excluded in a condi-based meta.

My final arguments stand.

Here are my predictions, aka the worst timeline.

Instead of making a spec that stands on its own feet, Firebrand will be anet’s attempt to break the druid+mesmer meta.

So, firebrand will have 2 possible builds: a “condiPS” for quickness, i.e. ~20k dps and perma quickness stacking, and a healer/tank that stacks quickness. Druid and mesmers will still be run at 1, but firebrand will not provide any unique buffs of its own, so it will be an alternative, but not a raid staple.

Mesmer will retain its monopoly on aoe invulnerabilty, but either engi’s holosmith or necro’s scourge will get a clone of portal.

More specifically about firebrand. Each tome will have a symbol, F1 pulses quickness, F2 resistance, F3 stability. The first will be the cornerstone of the spec, along with a mantra that grants quickness and Feel my Wrath.

Axe will not have a symbol, the logic being that if have access to axe, you also have access to tomes to get symbols from.

Kind of looks like the axe has a symbol just based on the second icon. I find it unlikely that tomes will have symbols, but I suppose it’s possible. Not that I would mind assuming they pulsed quickness/resistance/stability.

My two biggest fears are the healing tome just being a cleanse bot, and tomes being butchered into point-black 600 range support.

RabbitUp.8294:

Here are my predictions, aka the worst timeline.

Instead of making a spec that stands on its own feet, Firebrand will be anet’s attempt to break the druid+mesmer meta.

So, firebrand will have 2 possible builds: a “condiPS” for quickness, i.e. ~20k dps and perma quickness stacking, and a healer/tank that stacks quickness. Druid and mesmers will still be run at 1, but firebrand will not provide any unique buffs of its own, so it will be an alternative, but not a raid staple.

Mesmer will retain its monopoly on aoe invulnerabilty, but either engi’s holosmith or necro’s scourge will get a clone of portal.

More specifically about firebrand. Each tome will have a symbol, F1 pulses quickness, F2 resistance, F3 stability. The first will be the cornerstone of the spec, along with a mantra that grants quickness and Feel my Wrath.

Axe will not have a symbol, the logic being that if have access to axe, you also have access to tomes to get symbols from.

Interesting speculation. This fits in rather nicely with another speculation I’ve seen stating that the new Seraph stat prefix (Condi, Prec, Healing Power, Concentration) being obtainable in Lake Doric, where you find Logan (a guardian who is healing and feels his body is “changing”) is a hint towards what Firebrand is going to be.

Symbols on virtue-tomes sounds wonderful but I think it would be unlikely considering what symbols are currently capable of on the right build: imagine 5 symbols per guardian, stacked on a single enemy.

I think a symbol on axe is more likely. We can speculate very little from the leaked image but in my opinion, the icon of one of the axe skills (axe 2) suggests it could be a melee-ranged aoe/whirl. I’d say it’s pretty likely that a symbol could be attached to this skill. The other skill (axe 3) looks like it could be a powerful leap/strike or an axe throw at your target.

Assuming that the “Support” trinity of raids is currently Chrono/Druid/Berserker, what if the next set of Especs fills a similar role but in different ways.

Say that Firebrand can apply Quickness, Might and Healing. Then perhaps Holosmith can apply Invulnerability and Alacrity, while Scourge provides group-wide DPS-increase with unique Debuffs and Life-steal Buffs equivalent of GotL.

You could then run a Chrono/Druid/PS setup, or a Firebrand/Holosmith/Scourge setup.

Now, you might say “But GotL is still a unique set-up!” but what’s to say that Soulbeast isn’t a really powerful DPS spec? Enough so that it competes with other high-end DPS specs currently out. Sure, you could bring BOTH a Soulbeast and a Druid, but at some point having too many Team Buffers over actual DPS just loses out. We’ll see how the meta changes once the Xpac hits.

Some leakers have stated that the scourge provides AoE shields that absorb damage (I’m assuming sand shields or something). Whether these absorb a percentage of damage or apply a “white health” shield like in other games, I have no idea.

TheSwede.9512:

Assuming that the “Support” trinity of raids is currently Chrono/Druid/Berserker, what if the next set of Especs fills a similar role but in different ways.

Say that Firebrand can apply Quickness, Might and Healing. Then perhaps Holosmith can apply Invulnerability and Alacrity, while Scourge provides group-wide DPS-increase with unique Debuffs and Life-steal Buffs equivalent of GotL.

You could then run a Chrono/Druid/PS setup, or a Firebrand/Holosmith/Scourge setup.

Now, you might say “But GotL is still a unique set-up!” but what’s to say that Soulbeast isn’t a really powerful DPS spec? Enough so that it competes with other high-end DPS specs currently out. Sure, you could bring BOTH a Soulbeast and a Druid, but at some point having too many Team Buffers over actual DPS just loses out. We’ll see how the meta changes once the Xpac hits.

Soulbeast won’t be able to apply GotL, and ranger already has a top dps build as base condi ranger. That build can provide spirits and spotter to 5 people. So, you can have 2 druids, or 1 druid+1 cranger. I honestly see Soulbeast being the new scrapper, a pvp-focused spec.

But this is exactly what I don’t want, for firebrand to be nothing but the crowbar to break the meta comp with. I want groups to take firebrand because of the things it offers, not because it does a good enough job imitating chrono.

RabbitUp.8294:

TheSwede.9512:

Assuming that the “Support” trinity of raids is currently Chrono/Druid/Berserker, what if the next set of Especs fills a similar role but in different ways.

Say that Firebrand can apply Quickness, Might and Healing. Then perhaps Holosmith can apply Invulnerability and Alacrity, while Scourge provides group-wide DPS-increase with unique Debuffs and Life-steal Buffs equivalent of GotL.

You could then run a Chrono/Druid/PS setup, or a Firebrand/Holosmith/Scourge setup.

Now, you might say “But GotL is still a unique set-up!” but what’s to say that Soulbeast isn’t a really powerful DPS spec? Enough so that it competes with other high-end DPS specs currently out. Sure, you could bring BOTH a Soulbeast and a Druid, but at some point having too many Team Buffers over actual DPS just loses out. We’ll see how the meta changes once the Xpac hits.

Soulbeast won’t be able to apply GotL, and ranger already has a top dps build as base condi ranger. That build can provide spirits and spotter to 5 people. So, you can have 2 druids, or 1 druid+1 cranger. I honestly see Soulbeast being the new scrapper, a pvp-focused spec.

But this is exactly what I don’t want, for firebrand to be nothing but the crowbar to break the meta comp with. I want groups to take firebrand because of the things it offers, not because it does a good enough job imitating chrono.

Cranger can’t apply GotL either though, as it uses only Core Specs to get the job done. I was suggesting that, if Soulbeast turns out to be a Power Spec, it’d allow Rangers to deal competative DPS on Power Builds as well. Daggers typically have fast animations, resulting in high DPS and/or Condition Application, after all.

But back to the topic at hand: I do not doubt that Firebrand will bring something new to the table. ANet can introduce new mechanics as they see fit, including ones outside of the box that we as players aren’t even thinking of. But the more new Supportive effects that are included, the more players are going to have to choose between them and eventually, one of the effects will become meta and people will stick to that.

Or ANet decides that Healer Specs are also the new Offensive Buffer specs and slaps GotL on Firebrand as well.

TheSwede.9512:

RabbitUp.8294:

TheSwede.9512:

Assuming that the “Support” trinity of raids is currently Chrono/Druid/Berserker, what if the next set of Especs fills a similar role but in different ways.

Say that Firebrand can apply Quickness, Might and Healing. Then perhaps Holosmith can apply Invulnerability and Alacrity, while Scourge provides group-wide DPS-increase with unique Debuffs and Life-steal Buffs equivalent of GotL.

You could then run a Chrono/Druid/PS setup, or a Firebrand/Holosmith/Scourge setup.

Now, you might say “But GotL is still a unique set-up!” but what’s to say that Soulbeast isn’t a really powerful DPS spec? Enough so that it competes with other high-end DPS specs currently out. Sure, you could bring BOTH a Soulbeast and a Druid, but at some point having too many Team Buffers over actual DPS just loses out. We’ll see how the meta changes once the Xpac hits.

Soulbeast won’t be able to apply GotL, and ranger already has a top dps build as base condi ranger. That build can provide spirits and spotter to 5 people. So, you can have 2 druids, or 1 druid+1 cranger. I honestly see Soulbeast being the new scrapper, a pvp-focused spec.

But this is exactly what I don’t want, for firebrand to be nothing but the crowbar to break the meta comp with. I want groups to take firebrand because of the things it offers, not because it does a good enough job imitating chrono.

Cranger can’t apply GotL either though, as it uses only Core Specs to get the job done. I was suggesting that, if Soulbeast turns out to be a Power Spec, it’d allow Rangers to deal competative DPS on Power Builds as well. Daggers typically have fast animations, resulting in high DPS and/or Condition Application, after all.

I didn’t meant to imply cranger has GotL. My point is Soulbeast doesn’t matter as much for the meta, because there’s already a condi dps build. Sure, build variety and such, but the point is that 1 druid can already be replaced by a dps spec.

Unless you meant if 2 Soulbeasts do so much damage that they make up for having no GotL at all, which I don’t see happening, or not getting nerfed if it did.

But back to the topic at hand: I do not doubt that Firebrand will bring something new to the table. ANet can introduce new mechanics as they see fit, including ones outside of the box that we as players aren’t even thinking of. But the more new Supportive effects that are included, the more players are going to have to choose between them and eventually, one of the effects will become meta and people will stick to that.

Honestly, I wish I was as optimistic. I started that way too, when I saw the leaks, but the extra rumours I hear are not reassuring. Everyone is talking about the quickness stacking only, and it’s not like guardian has a tradition of bringing unique support. Ranger and Mesmer already had unique things before HoT (spirits, spotter, distort, portal), the only thing guardian has is the worst of the +150 traits.

A mechanic I want to see on firebrand is boon smiting. Mesmer does another important job for the group by removing boons, so that’s another problem if firebrand ever hopes to compete with chrono.

Boon smiting is a very fitting way for guardian to provide that utility. Guardian smites a boon on the target, converting it into burning. So, it’s like a specific version of boon corruption.

Mantras would be a good way to introduce that effect, with a mantra that smites a boon with each charge.

Another thing, that’s a bit of a pipe dream, is Righteous Indignation. Either that, or an AoE version of Infuse Light would be thematic ways for guardian to compete with AoE distort.

Well... what I have on my mind is not a Firebrand feature, but it would boast support and dps role that guardian does. I think it would be better if symbols that show up during melee attacks, could follow the guardian as he moves. Thus he could maintain his point control on pvp and static support in pve. There are many situations when a symbol is cast and nobody stands in it, be it ally or enemy, or if it is on point in pvp, the enemy can safely walk into it because symbols don’t do much damage on their own.
If all symbols (scepter and staff too) were cast under feet, they could bring much more versatility to guardians (if we had a crippling symbol that would be great to chase down faster classes, but that’s just my little dream xD). It would be really awesome for symbol of swiftness that grants you speed as you run. Isn’t it a great possibility?