Alacrity and ICDs
In case no one else has done so/I missed it, did a really quick test.
Equip MoD and Confounding Suggestions.
Both have a 5 second CD.
Drop Well of Recall.
Spam MoD as soon as it’s off CD again.First MoD = Stun.
2nd MoD = DazeI kind of expected it but =(
Do people think alacrity should affect ICD? This may be a moot point if the engine cant handle it though.
No. With few exceptions, ICDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage. Alacrity as a buff is meant to increase the rate at which players can use skills, which have cooldowns as a potency limiter.
It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one. ICDs are meant to keep certain traits from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.
MOAR POWER! ???
What could possibly go wrong?
I did some testing during the last BWE with SoInspiration and its equivalent passive skill. I chained UtilityBar SoInspiration and then phantasm-SoInspiration right after while running full alacrity traits. I saw that the passive SoInspiration respected alacrity (passive SoInspiration was able to proc right after Utility SoInspiration when the latter came back up again.)
Will have to test this again when I get on.
If it’s too OP because alacrity is already a pain to balance then sure. I just remember someone asking about this a while ago and no one had an answer at the time.
…
No. With few exceptions, ICDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage. Alacrity as a buff is meant to increase the rate at which players can use skills, which have cooldowns as a potency limiter.
It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one. ICDs are meant to keep certain traits from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.
Not a fan of this logic because…
“With few exceptions, CDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage of skills. CDs are meant to keep certain skills from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.”
Arbitrarily saying one but not the other affects balance is silly.
I did some testing during the last BWE with SoInspiration and its equivalent passive skill. I chained UtilityBar SoInspiration and then phantasm-SoInspiration right after while running full alacrity traits. I saw that the passive SoInspiration respected alacrity (passive SoInspiration was able to proc right after Utility SoInspiration when the latter came back up again.)
Will have to test this again when I get on.
This is interesting. I guess since a lot of passive traits use actual skills, it would affect those? Confounding suggestion isn’t based off of a skill, I didn’t see it work. I’ll try out a few more things.
Edit: Alacrity works with feedback on res as well and chaos storm on fall dmg.
(edited by DuckDuckBOOM.4097)
I also have a question: does alacrity increases thief initiative regen (or revenant also) since those classes do not have cool downs in the same way?
I also have a question: does alacrity increases thief initiative regen (or revenant also) since those classes do not have cool downs in the same way?
Had a rev friend use 3 glint channels to have zero energy. Alacrity didn’t change it.
If it’s too OP because alacrity is already a pain to balance then sure. I just remember someone asking about this a while ago and no one had an answer at the time.
Not a fan of this logic because…
“With few exceptions, CDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage of skills. CDs are meant to keep certain skills from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.”
Arbitrarily saying one but not the other affects balance is silly.
It’s entirely because of the way they use ICDs. In general, they create a trait, put it in action, and learn that unrestricted use is just a problem. They then try to find the lowest icd that allows the trait to function the way they wanted it to, without causing the problem. In principle, this means allowing alacrity to apply would reintroduce some of those problems, and they’d have to go back and rebalance all the icds to account for it…or they could just disallow it.
The design philosophy behind cooldowns for abilities, meanwhile, attempts to incorporate the balance between cd and power from the beginning. Cooldowns aren’t fixes, they are part of the original design, so it’s okay for alacrity to apply, because the philosophy accounts for it.
That’s all. If they historically approached ICDs the same way they do skills or traits that use skills, it should in principle all be the same. Indeed, I’m sure some icds (Mirror of Anguish comes to mind) wouldn’t be a problem at all, but since that’s not a consistent philosophy, it’s kind of a can of worms I’d personally rather they not open.
I also have a question: does alacrity increases thief initiative regen (or revenant also) since those classes do not have cool downs in the same way?
Had a rev friend use 3 glint channels to have zero energy. Alacrity didn’t change it.
Ok. Should this be changed? This is essentially “unfair” for thieves and revenants.
I also have a question: does alacrity increases thief initiative regen (or revenant also) since those classes do not have cool downs in the same way?
Had a rev friend use 3 glint channels to have zero energy. Alacrity didn’t change it.
Ok. Should this be changed? This is essentially “unfair” for thieves and revenants.
For thieves in particular, isn’t that the price of being unaffected by chill/power block?
Edit: though, if chrono support becomes meta, I suppose that could push thieves out of the meta.
I also have a question: does alacrity increases thief initiative regen (or revenant also) since those classes do not have cool downs in the same way?
Had a rev friend use 3 glint channels to have zero energy. Alacrity didn’t change it.
Ok. Should this be changed? This is essentially “unfair” for thieves and revenants.
When determining what’s “fair” there’s a little saying that will help guide you- “Treat equals equally”. Thieves and Revs arent equal with the rest of the classes because of the way in which their skill mechanics function. So no, it’s not unfair in the slightest.
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
Good luck interrupting those steals -_-u
In my opinion we have 2 forms of ICDs on traits.
Form 1: The trait activates an actual skill that has a cool down. In this fashion the ICD is the cool down on the skill and is usually affected by traits affecting said skills.
Form 2: The trait does something that isn’t a skill, a good example is IP for engineers where it will proc burning on crits with an ICD. These are usually not affected by anything.
I think alacrity should affect form 1 traits as they are indeed skills that auto activate under circumstances. They are essentially skills and that is the purpose of alacrity. Form 2 however have ICDs that are balanced by their inherent power with no reduction available in any way. If some of these were allowed to proc at a much faster rate, someone will enviably get burned, by about 4 more stacks =P
If it’s too OP because alacrity is already a pain to balance then sure. I just remember someone asking about this a while ago and no one had an answer at the time.
Not a fan of this logic because…
“With few exceptions, CDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage of skills. CDs are meant to keep certain skills from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.”
Arbitrarily saying one but not the other affects balance is silly.
It’s entirely because of the way they use ICDs. In general, they create a trait, put it in action, and learn that unrestricted use is just a problem. They then try to find the lowest icd that allows the trait to function the way they wanted it to, without causing the problem. In principle, this means allowing alacrity to apply would reintroduce some of those problems, and they’d have to go back and rebalance all the icds to account for it…or they could just disallow it.
The design philosophy behind cooldowns for abilities, meanwhile, attempts to incorporate the balance between cd and power from the beginning. Cooldowns aren’t fixes, they are part of the original design, so it’s okay for alacrity to apply, because the philosophy accounts for it.
That’s all. If they historically approached ICDs the same way they do skills or traits that use skills, it should in principle all be the same. Indeed, I’m sure some icds (Mirror of Anguish comes to mind) wouldn’t be a problem at all, but since that’s not a consistent philosophy, it’s kind of a can of worms I’d personally rather they not open.
Again, still don’t like this logic because how easily I can “twist your words:”
“In general, they create a skill, put it in action, and learn that unrestricted use is just a problem. (Except auto attacks and thief/rev stuff). They then try to find the lowest CD that allows the SKILL to function the way they wanted it to, without causing the problem.”
Anyhow, historically, most traits had ICDs just like skills have CDs. A few were missed and eventually fixed. The point about them being designed differently is moot. Both are balanced with CD/ICD and power in mind.
You know what though, none of this matters because history means nothing here. Traits were recently revamped at a time where the Devs knew of alacrity’s existence even if we did not. Most traits were turned into skills with skill CDs. Alacrity affects most of these. So why not?
The more I think about the thief/rev stuff is what makes me think it’s “not fair.” If chill doesn’t affect the ICD of some traits, then neither should alacrity. I don’t have time to test right now but I’m assuming chill does affect the ICD of skill based traits. Anyone want to check that/know how it works for sure?
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
Only the healing skill is actually interruptible.
Good luck interrupting shadowstep or shadow refuge or infiltrator’s signet or Haste.
Basilisk Venom is usually cast in stealth anyways so you won’t be interrupting that.
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
Only the healing skill is actually interruptible.
Good luck interrupting shadowstep or shadow refuge or infiltrator’s signet or Haste.
Basilisk Venom is usually cast in stealth anyways so you won’t be interrupting that.
It seems like I was misunderstood. I meant that thieves do benefit from alacrity already, not that everything can be interrupted.
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
Only the healing skill is actually interruptible.
Good luck interrupting shadowstep or shadow refuge or infiltrator’s signet or Haste.
Basilisk Venom is usually cast in stealth anyways so you won’t be interrupting that.
It seems like I was misunderstood. I meant that thieves do benefit from alacrity already, not that everything can be interrupted.
Yeah, but’s let’s be honest, at least in a PvE setting the only benefit from alacrity will come to Haste. Anything else simply is not used on cooldown. Not the heal, and the signets are left alone for the passives.
It’s really marginal, and the end result is that most likely it will push ele/sinister engineer far above the thief in DPS. Revenant’s main DPS comes from the autoattacks and the occasional Unrelenting Assault so they benefit less as well.
In a raid this will benefit the ele/engineer/necro the most, which seem to be shaping up as the premier DPS classes with alacrity in a group.
Necro’s Gravedigger with Alacrity looks to drop down to 5 seconds from 8 with Alacrity, and good lord Meteor Shower will be godly with it as well.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
Only the healing skill is actually interruptible.
Good luck interrupting shadowstep or shadow refuge or infiltrator’s signet or Haste.
Basilisk Venom is usually cast in stealth anyways so you won’t be interrupting that.
It seems like I was misunderstood. I meant that thieves do benefit from alacrity already, not that everything can be interrupted.
Yeah, but’s let’s be honest, at least in a PvE setting the only benefit from alacrity will come to Haste. Anything else simply is not used on cooldown. Not the heal, and the signets are left alone for the passives.
It’s really marginal, and the end result is that most likely it will push ele/sinister engineer far above the thief in DPS. Revenant’s main DPS comes from the autoattacks and the occasional Unrelenting Assault so they benefit less as well.
In a raid this will benefit the ele/engineer/necro the most, which seem to be shaping up as the premier DPS classes with alacrity in a group.
Necro’s Gravedigger with Alacrity looks to drop down to 5 seconds from 8 with Alacrity, and good lord Meteor Shower will be godly with it as well.
Yeah, the “All’s well that ends well” trait change was ridiculous. It was very difficult to share alacrity in beta weekend 1, and there was a very good reason for that. With wells providing so much AoE alacrity, they seem somewhat overpowered in PvE nowdays.
They can make chill/power block work on initiative and then we can give thieves a benefit from alacrity.
In the case of revenant several of their skills already have cooldowns so they are indeed affected.
Thieves also have cooldowns.
Healing skills, utility skills, elite skill, steal.
Only the healing skill is actually interruptible.
Good luck interrupting shadowstep or shadow refuge or infiltrator’s signet or Haste.
Basilisk Venom is usually cast in stealth anyways so you won’t be interrupting that.
It seems like I was misunderstood. I meant that thieves do benefit from alacrity already, not that everything can be interrupted.
Yeah, but’s let’s be honest, at least in a PvE setting the only benefit from alacrity will come to Haste. Anything else simply is not used on cooldown. Not the heal, and the signets are left alone for the passives.
It’s really marginal, and the end result is that most likely it will push ele/sinister engineer far above the thief in DPS. Revenant’s main DPS comes from the autoattacks and the occasional Unrelenting Assault so they benefit less as well.
In a raid this will benefit the ele/engineer/necro the most, which seem to be shaping up as the premier DPS classes with alacrity in a group.
Necro’s Gravedigger with Alacrity looks to drop down to 5 seconds from 8 with Alacrity, and good lord Meteor Shower will be godly with it as well.
Yeah, the “All’s well that ends well” trait change was ridiculous. It was very difficult to share alacrity in beta weekend 1, and there was a very good reason for that. With wells providing so much AoE alacrity, they seem somewhat overpowered in PvE nowdays.
They’re the only reason you would bring a mesmer. Mesmer sustained damage (DPS, not burst) is horrendous and they really don’t do anything better except for alacrity. You get double time warp and that’s as far as you’re useful to a group if the alacrity from wells hadn’t happened.
And to be honest the alacrity from wells isn’t any worse than Phalanx Strength banner warriors or persisting flames elementalists with ice bow.