Guild Wars 2

Okay, I’ve watched the demo videos of the Chronomancer and read through the various threads and blogs. I’ve even posted about this a few times without any resolution yet. What I see is the developer demonstrating our new elite spec with a main hand sword and an off hand shield equipped. I see the profession being played at range with melee weapons equipped. I see him summoning illusions and just sitting back watching the illusions go in dealing pitiful damage. In the bristleback/golem fights, he would periodically iLeap in to benefit from Tides of Time and pop off a blurred frenzy…then immediately move back to range…with a main hand sword equipped. He would swap to staff (in PvE…sigh), but never even attempted our auto attack with main hand sword.

My issue is the functionality of Tides of Time in combination with either of the only two possible weapons to pair it with…considering mesmers only have 2 main hand weapons to choose from. The wave from ToT appears to begin in front of the mesmer…not behind or inside. This means that we don’t get the quickness/shield #5 recharge from its use unless we combine it with iLeap to get in front of it as it is on the way to our target. This then means, by extension, that if we are already in melee combat…at point blank range to our target…that we don’t have any chance of benefiting from the quickness/shield #5 recharge of ToT?!? That would also mean that our party does not get the benefits either…unless they are on the other side of the mob(s) from us using it?!? If we have a scepter equipped, then we have no means of benefiting at all…since the only leap/teleport is on the main hand sword. I know they started advertising (during the Revenant reveal) that they wanted us to have to be more positionally aware using our abilities, but this goes beyond that to non-functionality. The only reason I would ever equip shield over focus/off hand sword, would be for the quickness/alacrity abilities. I already dislike the ranged nature of the shield #4 phantasm, but at least it works properly. Fix shield #5 or demonstrate that it does actually work in melee combat instead of just at range + iLeap. Ideal solution would be to either change the graphic/mechanic to be a pbaoe outbound wave + inbound crash like someone in a previous thread said…this would accomplish the same two touches/double effect that was advertised in the chronomancer demos…similar to the standing in wells for 3 seconds to get benefits. I guess you could also just have the effect of the wave start behind the mesmer casting, so that it hits the mesmer and anyone in immediate vicinity of the mesmer…that just makes it very difficulty to get the iLeap combo finisher off possibly.

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

Fay.2357:

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

That’s what I needed to hear then. I know I’m not using it then. Anything that gets an exclusive support tag applied to it is trash imo. I am interested in whether or not that is something they said or a personal conclusion from examining its mechanics though?

That also makes it even more frustrating that we only get an off hand out of HoT and it ends up being only a support tool…versus other classes getting an entire package.

ODB.6891:

Fay.2357:

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

That’s what I needed to hear then. I know I’m not using it then. Anything that gets an exclusive support tag applied to it is trash imo. I am interested in whether or not that is something they said or a personal conclusion from examining its mechanics though?

That also makes it even more frustrating that we only get an off hand out of HoT and it ends up being only a support tool…versus other classes getting an entire package.

An infinite target doubletap stun is support trash? Its offensive capabilities more than justify its use. The quickness it applies is simply icing on the cake.

Fay.2357:

ODB.6891:

Fay.2357:

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

That’s what I needed to hear then. I know I’m not using it then. Anything that gets an exclusive support tag applied to it is trash imo. I am interested in whether or not that is something they said or a personal conclusion from examining its mechanics though?

That also makes it even more frustrating that we only get an off hand out of HoT and it ends up being only a support tool…versus other classes getting an entire package.

An infinite target doubletap stun is support trash? Its offensive capabilities more than justify its use. The quickness it applies is simply icing on the cake.

I could accomplish a similar effect with mantras or shatters + have my second weapon slot free for a more preferred weapon that I would get the full benefit of. I like the pull and the projectile blocking of focus + the aoe cleave damage and whirl finisher of the warden. The phantasm summon on focus is more reliable as well…not depending on a block or having a delay. I like off hand sword for its high single target damage and it also has a block + single aoe daze…on a very low cool down since I will be traiting 1h sword anyway. So yeah, a support tool gets marginalized in my opinion.

Um, do you think an elementalist never benefits from phoenix? I am also confused where alacrity is coming into the conversation. You realise its also projectile destruction. So two casts of the skill is 4 stuns and and projectile lockdown on anything between you and the target.

Edit: This is a non pulsing wall based aoe, its target limit is infinite. The only requirement is that it probably wont stun or give quickness to things that already have them.

ODB.6891:

I could accomplish a similar effect with mantras or shatters

No you couldn’t. The only stuns we have are on pistol 5 and the signet. Both of those are single target stuns, though the pistol has a random bounce that can do a bit more cc.

The shield wall will stun everything it passes through…twice, while blocking projectiles and providing quickness to allies.

If you don’t feel that that’s a good enough reason to equip the shield, then by all means don’t equip the shield. I personally don’t think it’s a good enough reason to equip the shield in most circumstances other than a few particular builds/situations, but I don’t try and misrepresent it by claiming that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um, do you think an elementalist never benefits from phoenix? I am also confused where alacrity is coming into the conversation. You realise its also projectile destruction. So two casts of the skill is 4 stuns and and projectile lockdown on anything between you and the target.

Before I edited the original post, the alacrity I was referring to was the self recharge of the skill 5 by interacting with the wave. About a minute after I posted, I then edited it to say shield #5 recharge instead of alacrity to be more accurate. But yeah, I do realize the wave has projectile destruction built in, which is also accomplished by just using the focus instead…which we do get full benefit from + other benefits. All I’m saying is that if this isn’t going to offer the full benefits to the mesmer itself…then I’ll pass.

I edited my previous post but ill add this here too. This doesn’t have a target limit. Your mantra cannot stun 30 people. This can.

Edit: Also remember that in normal conditions you will be hit by the wave once, and your allies twice. Your targeted enemy will be hit once and EVERYTHING between you and the enemy will be hit twice.

Fay.2357:

ODB.6891:

I could accomplish a similar effect with mantras or shatters

No you couldn’t. The only stuns we have are on pistol 5 and the signet. Both of those are single target stuns, though the pistol has a random bounce that can do a bit more cc.

The shield wall will stun everything it passes through…twice, while blocking projectiles and providing quickness to allies.

If you don’t feel that that’s a good enough reason to equip the shield, then by all means don’t equip the shield. I personally don’t think it’s a good enough reason to equip the shield in most circumstances other than a few particular builds/situations, but I don’t try and misrepresent it by claiming that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful.

I have to love the way you attack people for expressing their opinions, that’s really cool. One I have never misrepresented anything. Two I have never claimed that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful. What I have said is that I’ll pass on it if it is only a support tool. That’s pretty much what it is if it affects allies instead of the player. And yes, you can get similar effects from other things instead of tying up a weapon slot for it. Daze is a very similar effect to stun. You can get that in multiple ways other than tying up this weapon slot for it. Mantra of distraction can do this twice…without even traiting it…back to back at that…3 times if traited…so yes…I can get similar effects. There is a shatter that accomplishes the same thing…that can be combined with the new f5…so yes.

Without personally getting the quickness from this weapon, I agree with you, its a tough sell to make it worth using this weapon. The alacrity and slow from #4 are very tempting though…the stun is appealing on the #5, but the CD is repulsive…especially without being able to reliably/reasonably use the CD reduction they advertised with it.

My real issue with this is pretty much resolved now if this is something they actually said was intended functionality of not being able to benefit if already in melee range. Maybe I missed that somewhere, but I doubt it as I have reviewed this info multiple times specifically for this purpose.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I edited my previous post but ill add this here too. This doesn’t have a target limit. Your mantra cannot stun 30 people. This can.

Edit: Also remember that in normal conditions you will be hit by the wave once, and your allies twice. Your targeted enemy will be hit once and EVERYTHING between you and the enemy will be hit twice.

I can see its value in a WvW environment then if it doesn’t have a target cap. I don’t really WvW or PvP much at all, so it will still have limited value to me. I pretty much log into the game when I’m bored for a few quick high level fractals. The number of targets in such an environment at once are relatively small and they don’t live long to a high dps/synergy team.

Part of my initial post was concerning not getting hit by the initial wave. This scenario involves already being in melee combat when first using ToT. That’s what Fay so politely addressed. Saying that it is not intended for the mesmer to get touched by the wave in that scenario…but for allies only….unless using “complicated maneuvers”. The complicated maneuvers demonstrated by the developers involved starting at range instead and using iLeap + swap to jump through the wave and therefore be in position for the return wave as well. This whole scenario is what really has me turned off on using the shield. I prefer to primarily play melee on my mesmer…so if it isn’t going to benefit my character completely…then I choose to use a weapon that does offer its complete benefits to my character.

ODB.6891:

Fay.2357:

ODB.6891:

I could accomplish a similar effect with mantras or shatters

No you couldn’t. The only stuns we have are on pistol 5 and the signet. Both of those are single target stuns, though the pistol has a random bounce that can do a bit more cc.

The shield wall will stun everything it passes through…twice, while blocking projectiles and providing quickness to allies.

If you don’t feel that that’s a good enough reason to equip the shield, then by all means don’t equip the shield. I personally don’t think it’s a good enough reason to equip the shield in most circumstances other than a few particular builds/situations, but I don’t try and misrepresent it by claiming that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful.

I have to love the way you attack people for expressing their opinions, that really cool.

Having an opinion doesn’t automatically make that opinion accurate. I like to be accurate.

ODB.6891:

One I have never misrepresented anything.

You’re repeatedly called it nothing but a support tool. Since when is an infinite target stun nothing but a support tool?

ODB.6891:

Two I have never claimed that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful.

You’ve called it trash and, again, nothing but a support tool. I think that’s claiming that it does nothing unique or powerful.

ODB.6891:

And yes, you can get similar effects from other things instead of tying up a weapon slot for it.

No, you really can’t.

ODB.6891:

Daze is a very similar effect to stun.

Apples and oranges are both fruit, that doesn’t make them similar or comparable. Dazes still allow movement and dodging, and will take less off of a defiance break bar than stun will. Additionally, as myself and kentigem have stated a couple times already, it’s infinite target. That multitarget ability is something that mesmers completely lack.

At any rate…

@Kent: Pretty sure you’re slightly wrong on the mechanics. I believe the wall moves out a set distance in the direction of your target. If the target happens to be close, it’ll move past it and hit it twice anyway. I’d also actually expect a maximum range target to be hit twice by the stun based on how the animation goes, but I’m less sure of that.

@Kent: Pretty sure you’re slightly wrong on the mechanics. I believe the wall moves out a set distance in the direction of your target. If the target happens to be close, it’ll move past it and hit it twice anyway. I’d also actually expect a maximum range target to be hit twice by the stun based on how the animation goes, but I’m less sure of that.

You are right, the skill is not targeting, but cast in a direction. Its one of their new moveable aoe.

Fay.2357:

Having an opinion doesn’t automatically make that opinion accurate. I like to be accurate.

True statement…having an opinion doesn’t automatically make that opinion accurate. That also applies to your own opinions and statements. Its great that you like to be accurate, but that does not make you right either. Stun is a CC tool…CC is support. Daze is a CC tool…still support. If you have a problem with that simplificaton…then talking with you is a waste of time because its going to fall on deaf ears no matter what anyone tells you. I’m assuming that this hostility is all the result of daring to question you on whether these assertions you made sound like facts are indeed personal opinions concluded from your own observations? I can actually see that conclusion myself as that is exactly what they demonstrated. My reason for posting is to confirm that they really did not intend for the mesmer to gain this quickness/sheild #5 recharge while already in melee combat. I’ll take your given answer into consideration, but hopefully they will either chime in themselves or time will reveal the final/official answer….hopefully in a less confrontational way.

You’re repeatedly called it nothing but a support tool. Since when is an infinite target stun nothing but a support tool?

Again, it is a support tool…regardless of how many targets it has…so long as its primary function is support. Yes, that is an exaggeration as it also does damage, but there are plenty of support tools that do damage..often on much less of a cool down. So yeah, I concede it does more than just support as it also does damage.

You’ve called it trash and, again, nothing but a support tool. I think that’s claiming that it does nothing unique or powerful.

That would be your personal opinion on my personal opinion. While I respect your feelings, that is not a factual statement or accurate. That simply means that I don’t personally think it is unique or powerful enough to value it over alternatives.

No, you really can’t.

This is just a false statement altogether, which completely throws your “I like to be accurate” claim out the window. If you can’t agree that daze is similar in function to a 1 second stun, then again…communicating with you is pointless…like holding a conversation with a brick. Yes, they are different, but they also accomplish similar things. Daze is an effect caused by some skills which interrupts and prevents the target from using skills for a period of time. NPCs who become dazed are forced to remain still for its duration. Stun is a control effect that disables all skills and interrupts any current action. Stunned characters cannot move or activate skills, except those without an activation time, e.g. shouts and some signets. Stun breakers will restore one’s freedom to act. Despite its in-game description, there is no evidence that the duration of stun stacks. Pretty similar if you ask me.

Apples and oranges are both fruit, that doesn’t make them similar or comparable. Dazes still allow movement and dodging, and will take less off of a defiance break bar than stun will. Additionally, as myself and kentigem have stated a couple times already, it’s infinite target. That multitarget ability is something that mesmers completely lack.

Again, I said similar not exactly the same. The target cap is of little relevance to me due to game mode preferences…hence my reference to “trash”. I guess I’ll google the definition of similar for you.

sim·i·lar
?sim(?)l?r/
adjective
adjective: similar

1.
resembling without being identical.

I’m confused. The recharge is only on the returning wave. There is zero chance you are not hit by the returning wave if you are in melee combat.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m confused. The recharge is only on the returning wave. There is zero chance you are not hit by the returning wave if you are in melee combat.

I’m of the belief that it does not return past the starting point…which is in front of where you are standing. So there’s a chance if that assumption is correct, but yeah…you can move forward from your casting point to get the return wave. I didn’t notice that the recharge is only on the return wave though…that makes some difference…moving forward is easy enough.

I already know exactly how to think of it. I made the post for a specific reason…to address the lack of effect/mechanic for the caster in a specific situation. If that’s working as intended, then that’s fine…it just means it isn’t the choice for me. I’m not going to resort to insults regarding Azure as that would be childish and unnecessary. There was clearly nothing trollish about my post, so that whole comment just exemplifies the personality of the person who made it.

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds. If you do it with Rifted ToT you can have a free ToT because the cooldown has been reduced to 0.

Edit: All these questions would have been answered if you just watched the stream again. This is quite frustrating because I did all this work checking information online to help you. And finally I rewatch that part of the stream and the VERY FIRST EXAMPLE of skill five answers all your questions. Yes I learned stuff like I was wrong about an assumption. The simple truth the shield hits EVERYTHING within 900 range twice. That includes you.

Daniel Handler.4816:

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds.

Woah there, it’s a bit early to be calling a 20s reduction with that combo. I think it would be really cool if it did give you double reduction, but that’s definitely not a guarantee.

ODB.6891:

The wave from ToT appears to begin in front of the mesmer…not behind or inside. This means that we don’t get the quickness/shield #5 recharge from its use unless we combine it with iLeap to get in front of it as it is on the way to our target.

Wrong, just watch the video again. He gets Quickness on using the skill, and Quickness again on the return wave. So: no target limit, quickness on (you and) allies, damage & stun on enemies… we don’t have ANYTHING like it in any other weapon.

/thread

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds.

Woah there, it’s a bit early to be calling a 20s reduction with that combo. I think it would be really cool if it did give you double reduction, but that’s definitely not a guarantee.

Bad Pyro. Now I have to explain again the importance of watching the stream. He already showed us two ToT in a row. It gave a 20 second cooldown reduction.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds.

Woah there, it’s a bit early to be calling a 20s reduction with that combo. I think it would be really cool if it did give you double reduction, but that’s definitely not a guarantee.

Bad Pyro. Now I have to explain again the importance of watching the stream. He already showed us two ToT in a row. It gave a 20 second cooldown reduction.

Yeah, but those were both on the backswing. They may have coded it so that only catching the return trip will reduce the cooldown.

While I think it would be awesome if hitting it going any direction reduces the cooldown, I couldn’t really fault them for coding it the other way.

Wait why would you need to get in front of it to get the buff when the skill bounces back in your direction once it hits the target? Unless I am completely misunderstanding the skill you send it out in front of you, it hits its target then bounces back and always goes towards where you are when it bounces, with the benefits being given if you catch it on the way back…

So in melee you would get the benefits almost instantly because it would hit the target then return to you. I dont know where you’re getting the idea that you have to iLeap in order to get it, that’s just a handy way of changing its direction (ileap always attempts to put clone behind so if you swap before the wave hits it will then continue through to hit you behind the target). From what I understand you can only gain the CDR and buffs once, cause otherwise you could catch 3-4 times with good movement and that would be a little OP.

To sum up this thread:

OP plays pve only, he only cares about personal dmg and will stick with the offhand weapons he’s learned to love. He wont use shield because it looks like a support tool in his opinion and will keep trashtalking about it regardless of all the people trying to explain to him how powerful and unique the shield skill (Tides of Time) is.

/thread.

Dr Gonzo.6259:

Wait why would you need to get in front of it to get the buff when the skill bounces back in your direction once it hits the target? Unless I am completely misunderstanding the skill you send it out in front of you, it hits its target then bounces back and always goes towards where you are when it bounces, with the benefits being given if you catch it on the way back…

So in melee you would get the benefits almost instantly because it would hit the target then return to you. I dont know where you’re getting the idea that you have to iLeap in order to get it, that’s just a handy way of changing its direction (ileap always attempts to put clone behind so if you swap before the wave hits it will then continue through to hit you behind the target). From what I understand you can only gain the CDR and buffs once, cause otherwise you could catch 3-4 times with good movement and that would be a little OP.

Another example of watch the stream. ToT is not a targeted skill. It is a moving aoe along a 900 range. He put out two ToT and gains a 20 second recharge bonus.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds.

Woah there, it’s a bit early to be calling a 20s reduction with that combo. I think it would be really cool if it did give you double reduction, but that’s definitely not a guarantee.

Bad Pyro. Now I have to explain again the importance of watching the stream. He already showed us two ToT in a row. It gave a 20 second cooldown reduction.

Yeah, but those were both on the backswing. They may have coded it so that only catching the return trip will reduce the cooldown.

While I think it would be awesome if hitting it going any direction reduces the cooldown, I couldn’t really fault them for coding it the other way.

Bad Pyro again for assuming. We have mobility based in blinks not running stuff.
I am at point A, if I dash to point B, that time allows for time to move as I am dashing. However if I blink from point A to point B time is the same. You are blinking forward to get hit once by the wave as it returns, then blinking back to again get hit by the returning wave. Both times you are getting hit from the side of wave closest to you, the kind that is suppose to award 10 second cooldown.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds.

Woah there, it’s a bit early to be calling a 20s reduction with that combo. I think it would be really cool if it did give you double reduction, but that’s definitely not a guarantee.

Bad Pyro. Now I have to explain again the importance of watching the stream. He already showed us two ToT in a row. It gave a 20 second cooldown reduction.

Yeah, but those were both on the backswing. They may have coded it so that only catching the return trip will reduce the cooldown.

While I think it would be awesome if hitting it going any direction reduces the cooldown, I couldn’t really fault them for coding it the other way.

Bad Pyro again for assuming. We have mobility based in blinks not running stuff.
I am at point A, if I dash to point B, that time allows for time to move as I am dashing. However if I blink from point A to point B time is the same. You are blinking forward to get hit once by the wave as it returns, then blinking back to again get hit by the returning wave. Both times you are getting hit from the side of wave closest to you, the kind that is suppose to award 10 second cooldown.

I’m not assuming anything, I’m just sorta postulating. If I were making this skill, allowing for someone to doubletap on the cdr would be a conscious decision I would want to make. Both ways would be very straightforward to code, and doubling up on that cdr is a potential massive boost to the skill, not one they’d necessarily want to make.

I’m not saying that it is one way or the other, I’m just saying that there’s absolutely no evidence one way or the other either.

Edit: I actually misunderstood how you were planning on getting hit by the wave twice, but my point still stands. Doubling up on the same wave is something that they very well might code against.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

That’s simple. He wanted to be hit by the returning wave twice. ILeap+ToT+Swap+Phase Retreat. This maneuver lowers the cool down by 20 seconds.

Woah there, it’s a bit early to be calling a 20s reduction with that combo. I think it would be really cool if it did give you double reduction, but that’s definitely not a guarantee.

Bad Pyro. Now I have to explain again the importance of watching the stream. He already showed us two ToT in a row. It gave a 20 second cooldown reduction.

Yeah, but those were both on the backswing. They may have coded it so that only catching the return trip will reduce the cooldown.

While I think it would be awesome if hitting it going any direction reduces the cooldown, I couldn’t really fault them for coding it the other way.

Bad Pyro again for assuming. We have mobility based in blinks not running stuff.
I am at point A, if I dash to point B, that time allows for time to move as I am dashing. However if I blink from point A to point B time is the same. You are blinking forward to get hit once by the wave as it returns, then blinking back to again get hit by the returning wave. Both times you are getting hit from the side of wave closest to you, the kind that is suppose to award 10 second cooldown.

I’m not assuming anything, I’m just sorta postulating. If I were making this skill, allowing for someone to doubletap on the cdr would be a conscious decision I would want to make. Both ways would be very straightforward to code, and doubling up on that cdr is a potential massive boost to the skill, not one they’d necessarily want to make.

I’m not saying that it is one way or the other, I’m just saying that there’s absolutely no evidence one way or the other either.

Edit: I actually misunderstood how you were planning on getting hit by the wave twice, but my point still stands. Doubling up on the same wave is something that they very well might code against.

Your assumption was your misunderstanding.

I was going to comment, but it looks like others have tidied things up with the OP.

In conclusion: offhand shield isn’t a game changer, but it does offer some uniquely powerful things in certain situations. I’ll definitely be giving it a try.

Lol people he is asking a question and asking for a clearing up, you don’t have to tell him such rediculous as “his opinions are inferior”. That sounds pretty excessive to me. OP has a legit concern that shield might be stronger in conjunction with a sword in main hand over scepter.

keenlam.4753:

To sum up this thread:

OP plays pve only, he only cares about personal dmg and will stick with the offhand weapons he’s learned to love. He wont use shield because it looks like a support tool in his opinion and will keep trashtalking about it regardless of all the people trying to explain to him how powerful and unique the shield skill (Tides of Time) is.

/thread.

You people are funny. The only trash talk has come from others in this thread. Its pretty funny that expressing my opinion on the value of this off hand versus alternatives has garnered so much behind the keyboard hostility. One would think I had attacked people personally, but oh well. I would like to express appreciation for those few who did manage to provide a civil response…absent of side ways insinuations and implied/overt insults. Ultimately, the poster I quoted is partially correct. I am primarily a PvE player and will likely be staying with off hand weapons that I prefer. What this poster is not correct about is any intention I have of “trash talking” anything. I expressed my opinion on it and clarified my opinion upon being assaulted on this forum for expressing it. The only purpose for this thread was clarification, that could have 100% been accomplished without any of the hostility.

I rewatched the video, the buff triggers as soon as you use the skill. Also the CD recharge happens only on the returning part.
With iLeap, Blink, Phase Retreat and Portal you can probably trigger it a lot (and it’s probably very hard to pull in real battle xD).

ODB.6891:

keenlam.4753:

To sum up this thread:

OP plays pve only, he only cares about personal dmg and will stick with the offhand weapons he’s learned to love. He wont use shield because it looks like a support tool in his opinion and will keep trashtalking about it regardless of all the people trying to explain to him how powerful and unique the shield skill (Tides of Time) is.

/thread.

You people are funny. The only trash talk has come from others in this thread. Its pretty funny that expressing my opinion on the value of this off hand versus alternatives has garnered so much behind the keyboard hostility. One would think I had attacked people personally, but oh well. I would like to express appreciation for those few who did manage to provide a civil response…absent of side ways insinuations and implied/overt insults. Ultimately, the poster I quoted is partially correct. I am primarily a PvE player and will likely be staying with off hand weapons that I prefer. What this poster is not correct about is any intention I have of “trash talking” anything. I expressed my opinion on it and clarified my opinion upon being assaulted on this forum for expressing it. The only purpose for this thread was clarification, that could have 100% been accomplished without any of the hostility.

I think part of the hostility is that people are realising if you just rewatched the video this whole discussion wouldn’t have needed to take place. And working out what you thought the skill did from the language in the comments was quite frustrating. Albeit we are also at fault, because rather than responding to the core of your argument, we attempted to correct side details first. For instance me asking you what you meant by alacrity is less important than explaining the functioning of a moving aoe.

Fay.2357:

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

Sorry Pyro. Another issue is that the first response to OP’s question is wrong. And it set the tone of misinformation for the entire post as people were postulating based on this initial assessment. You will always personally benefit from the skill, the start of the skill counts as the wave passing through you, and you get quickness. There is no complicated maneuver involved.

To the OP: it’s sad you only come on once a week to run just one very small portion of the game. Obviously Anet was not trying to please JUST YOU in this class change. Try to think outside your box…. some of us who play Mes recognize the class support role that we can be. Also, they did not design this skill so that it was easy to catch the wave twice, they just showed that it was possible. They thought of the ability to do so and showed you a possible way to do it but at no time did they say you would be able to do it every stinking time (I can think of about 5 different skills that instantly change your positioning enabling you to catch this multiple times).
Now, I do agree with you that a new main hand weapon might allow us to make the max use of that skill easier, but I have stopped asking for the impossible.

ODB.6891:

I see him summoning illusions and just sitting back watching the illusions go in dealing pitiful damage. In the bristleback/golem fights, he would periodically iLeap in to benefit from Tides of Time and pop off a blurred frenzy…then immediately move back to range…with a main hand sword equipped. He would swap to staff (in PvE…sigh), but never even attempted our auto attack with main hand sword.

Ding ding! Mesmer has the lowest dps in dungeons and some don’t bother bringing them anymore. The only cleave weapon on this squishy class has terrible damage. Compare mesmer to thief or guardian sword and the gap is enormous.

I wonder if shield #5 will continue if you weapon swap before the wall returns. if so you could combo the GS blink + shatter Burst by porting in front of the wall to stack additional quickness then dodge roll backwards in include more grp members when the wall returns? or something like that? could make for some crazy advanced combos.

While the mesmer class is still my favorite class, I don’t think Anet had a clear/well thought out idea of how to implement it from the very beginning so that it could remain viable in a variety of situations. (It was the last class to be finished/designed and I felt that it was rushed out to meet the game’s release date.)

I think Anet has been trying to bandaid the class ever since but either the lead designer does not know what to do or does not have enough clout to make the changes needed to properly “fix” the class. I think its the former as I read somewhere that Anet was disheartened to find out that there were mesmer builds in which players never used the core’s class mechanic (shattering).

Seriously, who comes up with a class mechanic where upon its use, you destroy your primary source of sustained damage (phantasms) and then wonder why people are reluctant to shatter? What did they think was going to happen?

To put this into perspective, would a Guardian want to use their Virtues if every time they used it, their DPS decreased by about 2/3rd initially and then slowly built back up to 100% after 10-20 seconds? The payoff would have to be significant in order to offset the drastic reduction in DPS. Currently for Mesmers, that offset is only achieved by the use of the F1 ability for its burst. (F3 and F4 does not offer enough of a payoff to use them on cooldown or to make builds around.)

I don’t think tying mesmer DPS to one F1 ability was a good decision by Anet. Either all of the F1-F4 abilities should do damage (in different, useful ways so that their is a choice) or they should all be utility skills, like F3 and F4 currently is. Personally, I think it should have been the latter. (F3 and F4 are class defining skills; Decoy and Blink are examples of other class defining skills that could have taken up the F1 and F2 spots.)

Leodon.1564:

While the mesmer class is still my favorite class, I don’t think Anet had a clear/well thought out idea of how to implement it from the very beginning so that it could remain viable in a variety of situations. (It was the last class to be finished/designed and I felt that it was rushed out to meet the game’s release date.)

I think Anet has been trying to bandaid the class ever since but either the lead designer does not know what to do or does not have enough clout to make the changes needed to properly “fix” the class. I think its the former as I read somewhere that Anet was disheartened to find out that there were mesmer builds in which players never used the core’s class mechanic (shattering).

Seriously, who comes up with a class mechanic where upon its use, you destroy your primary source of sustained damage (phantasms) and then wonder why people are reluctant to shatter? What did they think was going to happen?

I pretty much agree with this logic. In fact many other classes exhibit the same phenomenon such as necro DS, conditions, and literally everything else being nonconducive for group play, ranger pets beings kind of uesless in AoE, and elementalists needing boons and healing to survive.

That being said I feel like the bandaids do go a long way to fix the mesmers issues (and some of the reaper and DS changes are being good bandaids for necros, but they still need more work). Not all of the wells are good, but the ones that are go a long way towards giving the mesmer AoE support and damage in WvW beyond veil. Chronophantasma makes it so you have an incentive to shatter a phantasm. And most importantly from what I’ve noticed, making all of the old reasons to go into Illusions for shatter specs (IP, Ielast, etc.) are baseline so we won’t be tied to that talent line anymore. Overall I think the chronomancer changes pushes the mesmer in a good direction in which it will have many more options, build diversity, and a higher skill cap.

Leodon.1564:

While the mesmer class is still my favorite class, I don’t think Anet had a clear/well thought out idea of how to implement it from the very beginning so that it could remain viable in a variety of situations. (It was the last class to be finished/designed and I felt that it was rushed out to meet the game’s release date.)

I think Anet has been trying to bandaid the class ever since but either the lead designer does not know what to do or does not have enough clout to make the changes needed to properly “fix” the class. I think its the former as I read somewhere that Anet was disheartened to find out that there were mesmer builds in which players never used the core’s class mechanic (shattering).

Seriously, who comes up with a class mechanic where upon its use, you destroy your primary source of sustained damage (phantasms) and then wonder why people are reluctant to shatter? What did they think was going to happen?

To put this into perspective, would a Guardian want to use their Virtues if every time they used it, their DPS decreased by about 2/3rd initially and then slowly built back up to 100% after 10-20 seconds? The payoff would have to be significant in order to offset the drastic reduction in DPS. Currently for Mesmers, that offset is only achieved by the use of the F1 ability for its burst. (F3 and F4 does not offer enough of a payoff to use them on cooldown or to make builds around.)

I don’t think tying mesmer DPS to one F1 ability was a good decision by Anet. Either all of the F1-F4 abilities should do damage (in different, useful ways so that their is a choice) or they should all be utility skills, like F3 and F4 currently is. Personally, I think it should have been the latter. (F3 and F4 are class defining skills; Decoy and Blink are examples of other class defining skills that could have taken up the F1 and F2 spots.)

Where did you get the numbers for this? Also the class mechanic is the closest thing to what mesmer was in gw1. When hexes became conditions and enchantments became boons, our complex hexes had to change or else we would be stuck a condition class. So “Conjure Phantasm” became the base for our phantasm, with things like the torch phantasm meant to mimic the “backfire” skill. Our ability to remove our hexes for extra aoe damage, “shattered delusions”, became f1. Many other skills are a sideffect of energy not being in the game, as energy denial was mesmer’s chief thing.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Leodon.1564:

While the mesmer class is still my favorite class, I don’t think Anet had a clear/well thought out idea of how to implement it from the very beginning so that it could remain viable in a variety of situations. (It was the last class to be finished/designed and I felt that it was rushed out to meet the game’s release date.)

I think Anet has been trying to bandaid the class ever since but either the lead designer does not know what to do or does not have enough clout to make the changes needed to properly “fix” the class. I think its the former as I read somewhere that Anet was disheartened to find out that there were mesmer builds in which players never used the core’s class mechanic (shattering).

Seriously, who comes up with a class mechanic where upon its use, you destroy your primary source of sustained damage (phantasms) and then wonder why people are reluctant to shatter? What did they think was going to happen?

To put this into perspective, would a Guardian want to use their Virtues if every time they used it, their DPS decreased by about 2/3rd initially and then slowly built back up to 100% after 10-20 seconds? The payoff would have to be significant in order to offset the drastic reduction in DPS. Currently for Mesmers, that offset is only achieved by the use of the F1 ability for its burst. (F3 and F4 does not offer enough of a payoff to use them on cooldown or to make builds around.)

I don’t think tying mesmer DPS to one F1 ability was a good decision by Anet. Either all of the F1-F4 abilities should do damage (in different, useful ways so that their is a choice) or they should all be utility skills, like F3 and F4 currently is. Personally, I think it should have been the latter. (F3 and F4 are class defining skills; Decoy and Blink are examples of other class defining skills that could have taken up the F1 and F2 spots.)

Where did you get the numbers for this? Also the class mechanic is the closest thing to what mesmer was in gw1. When hexes became conditions and enchantments became boons, our complex hexes had to change or else we would be stuck a condition class. So “Conjure Phantasm” became the base for our phantasm, with things like the torch phantasm meant to mimic the “backfire” skill. Our ability to remove our hexes for extra aoe damage, “shattered delusions”, became f1. Many other skills are a sideffect of energy not being in the game, as energy denial was mesmer’s chief thing.

His numbers are actually mostly accurate, just a little bit exaggerated. Phantasms comprise roughly 60% of a mesmer’s dps in dungeons, so to say shattering cuts your dps by 2/3 is fairly accurate. Taking 20 seconds to build it back up is a bit much, but I guess that could be a worst case scenario situation.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Leodon.1564:

While the mesmer class is still my favorite class, I don’t think Anet had a clear/well thought out idea of how to implement it from the very beginning so that it could remain viable in a variety of situations. (It was the last class to be finished/designed and I felt that it was rushed out to meet the game’s release date.)

I think Anet has been trying to bandaid the class ever since but either the lead designer does not know what to do or does not have enough clout to make the changes needed to properly “fix” the class. I think its the former as I read somewhere that Anet was disheartened to find out that there were mesmer builds in which players never used the core’s class mechanic (shattering).

Seriously, who comes up with a class mechanic where upon its use, you destroy your primary source of sustained damage (phantasms) and then wonder why people are reluctant to shatter? What did they think was going to happen?

To put this into perspective, would a Guardian want to use their Virtues if every time they used it, their DPS decreased by about 2/3rd initially and then slowly built back up to 100% after 10-20 seconds? The payoff would have to be significant in order to offset the drastic reduction in DPS. Currently for Mesmers, that offset is only achieved by the use of the F1 ability for its burst. (F3 and F4 does not offer enough of a payoff to use them on cooldown or to make builds around.)

I don’t think tying mesmer DPS to one F1 ability was a good decision by Anet. Either all of the F1-F4 abilities should do damage (in different, useful ways so that their is a choice) or they should all be utility skills, like F3 and F4 currently is. Personally, I think it should have been the latter. (F3 and F4 are class defining skills; Decoy and Blink are examples of other class defining skills that could have taken up the F1 and F2 spots.)

Where did you get the numbers for this? Also the class mechanic is the closest thing to what mesmer was in gw1. When hexes became conditions and enchantments became boons, our complex hexes had to change or else we would be stuck a condition class. So “Conjure Phantasm” became the base for our phantasm, with things like the torch phantasm meant to mimic the “backfire” skill. Our ability to remove our hexes for extra aoe damage, “shattered delusions”, became f1. Many other skills are a sideffect of energy not being in the game, as energy denial was mesmer’s chief thing.

His numbers are actually mostly accurate, just a little bit exaggerated. Phantasms comprise roughly 60% of a mesmer’s dps in dungeons, so to say shattering cuts your dps by 2/3 is fairly accurate. Taking 20 seconds to build it back up is a bit much, but I guess that could be a worst case scenario situation.

Except a destroyed phantasm does no damage. And all phantasms are eventually destroyed, I see no issue with allowing a mesmer to benefit from that destruction. And I feel like “viable in a variety of situations” just refers to speed dungeon runs. I don’t debate the math, I debate the mentality. Also remember that uniqueness and viability are occasionally opposites.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Except a destroyed phantasm does no damage. And all phantasms are eventually destroyed, I see no issue with allowing a mesmer to benefit from that destruction.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make and you lost me on “…I see no issue with allowing a mesmer to benefit from that destruction.”

Daniel Handler.4816:

And I feel like “viable in a variety of situations” just refers to speed dungeon runs.

No, speed dungeon runs actually did not cross my mind but I guess it could be used as an example in which our DPS delivery method fails to deliver if the example holds true for you. Any time you put the majority of a classes DPS into the hands of a pet AI (which is what our phantasms/shatters boil down to), that class is going to have a much harder time competing against other non-pet classes in DPS due to the inability for the pet AI to adapt.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t debate the math, I debate the mentality.

I don’t want to debate math either. My numbers were just rough estimates to emphasize the points I was trying to make which is that using our core mechanic reduces our total DPS significantly and takes a while for us to get back to max DPS. This is a tough pill to swallow considering the payoff.

As far as my mentality, I think you are trying to imply that I am some arrogant speed dungeon runner. Seeing that I can’t prove otherwise and have no interest in debating it, debate away!

Daniel Handler.4816:

Also remember that uniqueness and viability are occasionally opposites.

Yes, but can we not have both?

Leodon.1564:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Except a destroyed phantasm does no damage. And all phantasms are eventually destroyed, I see no issue with allowing a mesmer to benefit from that destruction.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make and you lost me on “…I see no issue with allowing a mesmer to benefit from that destruction.”

Daniel Handler.4816:

And I feel like “viable in a variety of situations” just refers to speed dungeon runs.

No, speed dungeon runs actually did not cross my mind but I guess it could be used as an example in which our DPS delivery method fails to deliver if the example holds true for you. Any time you put the majority of a classes DPS into the hands of a pet AI (which is what our phantasms/shatters boil down to), that class is going to have a much harder time competing against other non-pet classes in DPS due to the inability for the pet AI to adapt.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t debate the math, I debate the mentality.

I don’t want to debate math either. My numbers were just rough estimates to emphasize the points I was trying to make which is that using our core mechanic reduces our total DPS significantly and takes a while for us to get back to max DPS. This is a tough pill to swallow considering the payoff.

As far as my mentality, I think you are trying to imply that I am some arrogant speed dungeon runner. Seeing that I can’t prove otherwise and have no interest in debating it, debate away!,

Daniel Handler.4816:

Also remember that uniqueness and viability are occasionally opposites.

Yes, but can we not have both?

Illusions are impermanent. They will be destroyed by enemies or by the player overwriting them, regardless of whether a shatter takes place. Because they are AI, to not give the player the ability to destroy them is kinda cruel. And since they will be destroyed, giving players an ability to destroy them and gain benefit makes sense. Why is it the class mechanic? Because we will always be summoning illusions regardless of what is on our utility bar.

As for having both uniqueness and viability. I don’t like the mentality that we aren’t viable, that is what I seek to debate. And what is viability to you?

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for having both uniqueness and viability. I don’t like the mentality that we aren’t viable, that is what I seek to debate. And what is viability to you?

Well, in the dungeon speedrunning groups, mesmer is taken only because of the unique little tricks we can do, not because of anything having to do with actual PvEing capabilities. Mesmer has sub-par dps in almost every single situation, and the non-portal utility we bring can be replaced by a guardian.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for having both uniqueness and viability. I don’t like the mentality that we aren’t viable, that is what I seek to debate. And what is viability to you?

Well, in the dungeon speedrunning groups, mesmer is taken only because of the unique little tricks we can do, not because of anything having to do with actual PvEing capabilities. Mesmer has sub-par dps in almost every single situation, and the non-portal utility we bring can be replaced by a guardian.

I think we are straying past the bounds of casual play into optimization. And this is where viability vs uniqueness comes into play. If I can successfully complete a large amount of dungeons with a non viable build is it then viable for dungeons? Or is it only viable if out of 9 classes, on average people will want my class to fill one of the slots. I agree the dps is a problem, however no matter what we do things will eventually settle into meta.

I’m not really that into PvE anymore compared to the other game modes, but do you guys think that giving the group alacrity would help them be more viable in PvE? Sure there’d be the same issues with phantasms and low sustdps, but with alacrity, allies could do DPS rotations much more often in theory.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Illusions are impermanent. They will be destroyed by enemies or by the player overwriting them, regardless of whether a shatter takes place. Because they are AI, to not give the player the ability to destroy them is kinda cruel. And since they will be destroyed, giving players an ability to destroy them and gain benefit makes sense. Why is it the class mechanic? Because we will always be summoning illusions regardless of what is on our utility bar.

I have no problems with the idea of destroying our phantasms/illusions to gain a benefit or that shattering is our class mechanic.

The problem I have lies in the fact that too much of our DPS is dependent on our phantasms/shatters (our DPS delivery method). DPS is too important in this game for it be at the mercy of a pet AI, which is inflexible and cannot adapt as a player can.

Randomness seems to be a reoccurring theme with our class, as seen in several of our traits/abilities that provide random buffs/effects. The idea is that occasionally you get a meaningless buff, sometimes you get a semi-useful buff, and other times you get the buff you actually want at any particular moment. This creates a “feast or famine” type of situation for these traits which I am not a fan of because the traits are generally balanced around best case scenarios which means the traits have more of a “satisfied or famine” type feel to them.

While I am ok with this since I can choose not to take these traits/abilities, this idea also spills over to our DPS.

Our DPS fluctuates wildly and is balanced around best case scenarios. As a phantasm mesmer, that means our total DPS is generally balanced around having 3 phantasms up on a single target. But how often does this actually happen in gameplay? Sometimes we can accomplish this but for the majority of the time, for whatever reason, this is not the case. We are constantly in this middle ground, where we occasionally dip really low and occasionally hit our stride. Except at our peak, our DPS is lower than the majority of other classes.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for having both uniqueness and viability. I don’t like the mentality that we aren’t viable, that is what I seek to debate. And what is viability to you?

I probably should have not said viable because that does imply that Mesmers are unable to do content or is unable to join groups. That is not what I meant. Content in this game is relatively easy and I can only think of a few cases where a Mesmer cannot do something that another class can. (I’m ok with this.)

On my Ranger, my DPS output does not vary widely. The class is designed in a way so you can stay at relative peak DPS performance, no matter the situation. This is what I meant when I said that mesmers are not viable in a variety of encounters. Our DPS fluctuates wildly because its tied to a pet AI, with all of its limitations.

Leodon.1564:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Illusions are impermanent. They will be destroyed by enemies or by the player overwriting them, regardless of whether a shatter takes place. Because they are AI, to not give the player the ability to destroy them is kinda cruel. And since they will be destroyed, giving players an ability to destroy them and gain benefit makes sense. Why is it the class mechanic? Because we will always be summoning illusions regardless of what is on our utility bar.

I have no problems with the idea of destroying our phantasms/illusions to gain a benefit or that shattering is our class mechanic.

The problem I have lies in the fact that too much of our DPS is dependent on our phantasms/shatters (our DPS delivery method). DPS is too important in this game for it be at the mercy of a pet AI, which is inflexible and cannot adapt as a player can.

Randomness seems to be a reoccurring theme with our class, as seen in several of our traits/abilities that provide random buffs/effects. The idea is that occasionally you get a meaningless buff, sometimes you get a semi-useful buff, and other times you get the buff you actually want at any particular moment. This creates a “feast or famine” type of situation for these traits which I am not a fan of because the traits are generally balanced around best case scenarios which means the traits have more of a “satisfied or famine” type feel to them.

While I am ok with this since I can choose not to take these traits/abilities, this idea also spills over to our DPS.

Our DPS fluctuates wildly and is balanced around best case scenarios. As a phantasm mesmer, that means our total DPS is generally balanced around having 3 phantasms up on a single target. But how often does this actually happen in gameplay? Sometimes we can accomplish this but for the majority of the time, for whatever reason, this is not the case. We are constantly in this middle ground, where we occasionally dip really low and occasionally hit our stride. Except at our peak, our DPS is lower than the majority of other classes.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for having both uniqueness and viability. I don’t like the mentality that we aren’t viable, that is what I seek to debate. And what is viability to you?

I probably should have not said viable because that does imply that Mesmers are unable to do content or is unable to join groups. That is not what I meant. Content in this game is relatively easy and I can only think of a few cases where a Mesmer cannot do something that another class can. (I’m ok with this.)

On my Ranger, my DPS output does not vary widely. The class is designed in a way so you can stay at relative peak DPS performance, no matter the situation. This is what I meant when I said that mesmers are not viable in a variety of encounters. Our DPS fluctuates wildly because its tied to a pet AI, with all of its limitations.

True. However I don’t think this is a failure of design rather a failure of balancing the numbers.

the thought that mesmers can bash people up with shields like what I saw earlier this evening intrigues me

http://imgur.com/2sGt5pM