Guild Wars 2

It hasn’t quite been a week yet, but I’m sure a lot more people have tried MtD now with all the changes. How are people feeling about it? On a side note I tried PU once and felt the nerf, imo that build is gone.

I really want MtD to work and be a viable condi build. My opinion, still early I suppose, is that even with changes MtD does not work well enough in sPvP to content with lockdown or power shatter. This could be a L2P issue on my part, but I feel that to really overwhelm my opponent with condo’s I need to really send in waves of clones, shattering F1-F2-F3 pretty close together to get one to really land and not be cleansed. This is without sword. Otherwise it’s a sort of attrition play style that I feel the build can’t really win. Just like kite with staff sorta and try to wait out and time shatters, which takes a lot of time for a reward on successful shatter that just isn’t that big.

Landing the scepter block is a way huger deal than landing a full 3 clone F2 shatter. I think that right there says it all about this build. Yes it has some good aoe condi application in group fights, and yes it is beefier because of stats, but all in all power shatter still comes out miles ahead.

Anyone else honestly feel MtD really kicks kitten in sPvP, on par with standard shatter say?

As far as wvw goes, because of the stats and condition duration you can get there, I’d say this is a fun roaming build. Because of duration and the dire gear you can use, it’s just a lot stronger in small wvw fights than in sPvP. The condi hits harder and last longer, so it is much easier to get kills, and honestly people melt quite fast. It’s a real fun roaming build. I’ve been running scepter/focus and staff, and with the torment on AA and 50% condi duration people actually can’t run that easily compared to a condi build pre patch. Like all condi builds, it’s nice to have a build that can dish out serious damage without being glass, and I think MtD really is just a less forgiving condi build than PU, say higher risk and higher reward, which is nice.

So to me with the changes we lost PU condi and gained in MtD a nice condi build for roaming that is a good balance of risk and reward, and pretty fun too. Even in some smaller fights, not many people are overwriting your confusion or torment stacks, so it’s not a concern like it is iwht burning/bleed.

I’ve heard some people say the slow speed of killing makes this not ok for roaming, but imo it doesn’t actually kill that slowly. Much faster than old PU condi or clone death builds, of course not as fast as power shatter, but I wouldn’t call it slow.

What are others’ experience in roaming with it?

I agree with a lot of what you say, especially about the old PUC build. I didn’t even find it that ineffective in the 15 minutes that I tested it just out of curiosity, but it was just too darn slow at killing anything! It’s almost like the pace of the game has picked up a lot since the last patch, and PUC just takes too long to get anything done. I’ve always hated the way that build played, and now it’s just gotten much worse. Good riddance I guess.

I too have played mostly condie shatter since the patch, but I think it works quite well in sPvP actually. It is certainly more friendly to the point capture/hold style of play in sPvP then PUC, and is much faster at killing in general, and better at AoE condie application too.

There are some truths to what you say, and I wouldn’t call it on par with Power Shatter either, but then -let’s be honest- the skill level required to play Condie Shatter is also much lower. You’re significantly tougher to kill and have a relatively easy time with Thieves as compared to Power Shatter. A good Thief can still give you a run, but the average trash gets taken out so fast it’s really quite fun.

One major issue that you quickly notice between being reliant on F2 with C-Shatter vs. F1 for P-Shatter, is the obviously longer RuT on F2. There is simply no reason for this and it handicaps C-Shatter even more over P-Shatter.

I also agree that MtD is still questionable as an investment, but the reality is that for a C-Shatter build you have little other choice. It is noticeably better then before the patch, but as you say, 3 stacks of Torment is a little underwhelming for a GM trait and in no way compares to what IP brings to a P-Shatter build. I think they should have given it a slight bit of utility as well, much like how IP really makes the F3 & F4 utility Shatters usable anytime.

I’ve found that with using MI though to quickly get 2×3 Clone shatters in, I can put a pretty good AoE burst out in a group fight using F1 & F2 shatters in quick succession. That puts 6 Torment stacks out, on top of 6 Confusion stacks, and you do see some significant damage numbers popping up.

In conclusion, I wouldn’t say that C-Shatter is absolutely fine and highly competitive, but I do think it’s a viable build now; certainly much more so then before the patch. A large part of that is not MtD though, but IE on Staff clones! If that gets nerfed significantly, which would be a terrible decision by A-Net IMHO, I’d probably say that would just about kill off any Condition build left on the Mesmer since they killed the old PUC build for sure. You pretty much rely on Staff + IE to keep up Condie pressure on 1 to 2 targets. The F2 Shatter CD is just too long to rely on, and MtD too weak as well, especially when not using the F2 shatter. (Killing off 3 clones for 3 stacks of Torment alone is almost always a bad idea, unless you’re pretty certain to hit at least 3 targets with it.)

The Scepter AA & Clones are definitely better then before, but still a joke compared to Staff. So if they’re even thinking about nerfing IE, they had better improve both MtD and the Scepter some more. (For the latter, applying the “Ranger RF fix” to Scepter #3 would be perfect. Just make the channel much faster and it would be a decent ability.)

Condition shatter glass state is not worth the damage output tried PU post-patch with iE 0 4 6 0 4,cover conditions 0 6 6 2 0 and 2 6 6 0 0 I managed to kill LB rangers, turret engi and some 2v1 PU works better.

I would suggest decreasing MtD duration back to 4 sec and making it 2 stacks of torment per shatter.

Windwalker.7421:

(Killing off 3 clones for 3 stacks of Torment alone is almost always a bad idea, unless you’re pretty certain to hit at least 3 targets with it.)

I hadn’t thought about it like this, but right here I think you hit the nail on the head. It bums me out, but really this statement is the most important thing to understand about the build. With IE the purpose of MtD is to apply aoe condi pressure. That is cool that we can do that now, and maybe that is the reason the stacks are limited. If it was 2 stacks per illusion then that would possibly by OP considering it’s aoe? On the other hand maybe not since normal shatter can do insane aoe burst. Either way, MtD is for aoe condi pressure, which is ok, but it feels disappointing, like maybe just a tiny bit better than Imbued Diversion (and maybe even worse??). Most importantly it’s a GM trait that really doesn’t do anything to help you drop someone.

When I think of a shatter build, I’d like to think that if you are able to nail a 3 clone shatter on someone, they should be hurting. With MtD, if you do that in many situations you actually nerfed yourself.

It’s not totally true, because like you say this can apply some aoe condi pressure, but in many situations this build is just another build where we are better off not using our class mechanic F1-F4. Quite the bummer imo. After this analysis, I’ll probably go back to power builds, which is a shame as I really like the damage over time play style.

Thanks for the thoughts, very helpful in forming my opinion of MtD.

I tried it out post-patch. Realised that my staff clones accounted for the majority of my dps and then stopped using MtD. It was fun to use, but I honestly felt like I was kittening myself over by sending clones to shatter. MtD needs to be 2 torment stacks per clone (reduce duration back to 4 seconds) and Cry of Frustration needs to have its cooldown reduced so your base condi shatter skill can be rotated like the base power shatter skill (Mind Wrack).

the different pre patch and post patch for codi shatter are hadly notice

the main difference is the IE on the staff

ppl call it shatter condition and expect to do the same shatter rotation like the power shatter but its hardly the same

conditions are DOT so you shatter should be use smartly

i usualy start with staff creating 3 clones far from each other which can stack now nice pressure 10-15 bleed or if they get killed 3-5 bleed stacks instead
and i start to shatter when i see my enemy low on hp or blown his cd
if i manage to block with scepter and hit shatter below 50% hp they usualy dead

but overall i still find this build hard against bursty build like shatter mesmer/warrior
thief are easy though or hard to kill with the stealth but cant kill you eaither

the scepter torment AA is hardly notice so i use it for cover condition now and than

In my personal experience a burst condi shatter build does not work against any profession with condi cleanse.

Comparing how condi damage works and how the associated amulets are designed, with condi damage you are playing a game of attrition.

Now, how does ‘Maim the Disillusioned’ fits in there?

• It works on all shatter skills, therefore the best shatter skill for condi damage will be the F2 for max Confusion.
• Don’t underestimate the confusion damage from F2.
• the traited F2 supports your damage, but it’s not enough to kill someone, so we have to maintain dps.

In the ideal situation it would look something like that: You have three illusions up, and you can instantly replace them with new ones, and the new ones are not likely to die. Therefore I can shatter my three old illusions with F2, replace them with new ones, and still have clones up to maintain my dps.

A more common option would be to shatter the clones before they get killed (AND I don’t hope for a Weakness proc).

BTW: In my current non-shatter build, I don’t have points to spec into MoD. Have to test around more.

Has anyone gave a good run at a hybrid MtD build (thinking more WvW, much harder in PvP)? I’ve thought (and posted) about this for awhile now but it’s only theory and I’ve never tried it. I think it’d be the only way to consistently keep up pressure with MW/CoF torment while also doing decent MW damage and providing a semblance of burst. A build like this would need BI I think to really max out the damage potential, 0/4/4/0/6.

Definitely have tried to come up with a hybrid Condie/Power Shatter build, built around using Celestial Amulet and Might Stacking.

The test results on the dummies was quite nice, but the problems start appearing when you consider heading into sPvP with it. (Maybe in WvW this would work!) The problem is you need some Condie removal yourself, and you need speed. Lacking a Speed Sigil once again rears it’s ugly head here, and as much as I’ve tried using Focus as a full time weapon again, it just still isn’t up to par. The Swiftness it gives is still terrible! (Too short, too long a RuT, and on top of all that can’t be stacked with other swiftness.)

Also, as soon as you start getting a decent amount of Power/Crit/CritDmg into your build, MtD becomes completely overshadowed by IP again. So even if you can live with the downsides of a hybrid shatter build, you will very likely be using IP over MtD.

If you’re really good at mass-creating clones fast, then MtD in a C-Shatter build has the one small advantage that you can turn F3 and F4 into offensive weapons, each supplying 3 stacks of Torment AoE. The problem of course is that all of those, including your Bread & Butter F2 Shatter, are on WAY too long CDs to count on them.

It’s like someone said above, the only reason to shatter for MtD is if you can almost instantly re-create the Clones you’re shattering. That pretty much requires MI, and that’s why I run it. It works quite alright, you can have fun with Condie Shatter, but it doesn’t hold a candle to Power Shatter…but it’s also MUCH more forgiving! ;-)

Talking about a hybrid condi shatter build, as said above, IP would quickly outshine MtD. But this is a cool idea: The main attrition part of the build comes form scepter block and IE clones, so you could use those to wear down an opponent, and then go in for a normal IP shatter for burst. But here you are practically doing normal shatter anyways, just maybe a little beefier with some rabid gear (wvw) or a celestial amulet. I’m pretty sure this would be even weaker than normal MtD now though, and you might as well just stick with power IP shatter.

For me I’m working on coming up with a non MtD condi build. I don’t think PU is worth it anymore, so maybe CI would be a fun alternative. But then weak condi cleanse, so that’s out imo. Maybe go for scepter trait and IE together? Like a 0/4/2/4/4 or 0/6/0/4/4 with harmonious mantras or furious interruption. Would be sweet if quickness applied to your clones :P. Even so, take MoD and get an interrupt with staff AA with IE would be a sweet dmg boost, maybe even with scepter for some quick torment stacks. They really need to remove the stupid CD on FI or increase the quickness duration, it’s just so kitten with it.

This would be another build where you never really shatter, which is lame, but if you took some lockdown like MoD it would still be a fun build that wasn’t totally passive. I’ll be giving it a try over the next week.

MtD was a fun idea, but if one scepter block or having 3 clones AA is better than a 3 clone MtD shatter the trait is just not worth it imo. Even roaming I bet there are stronger condi builds without MtD.

With a condi-shatter build (using MtD) it takes like 3x time to deal the same amount of damage that you will apply using standart power shatter (x5-10 if your foe packs condi-cleansing). This is while your survivability is not that much better (additional thoughness from rabid amulet – thats all, and you get less hp than b-zerker, no additional second of distortion without IP).
So usually while I am trying to shatter my illusions and apply conditions, my enemy just melts me coz many existing builds of other proffesions are far superior in damage output than a condi-shatter mesmer.
So my final verdict is that these types of builds are very-very weak in current metagame. Inferior to PU in a duel (even after it’s nerfs), super inferior to terror-necros, condi engies/rangers.