Guild Wars 2

I’m just starting a mesmer and have been wanting to rock a condition spec utilizing mostly bleeds and then burn/confusion/poison. Of course I want all forms of conditions to have the most uptime as possible, but I want to squeeze the most bleeds from the class as I can.

I’d apreciate some good videos, your builds and tips on how to achieve this. Most importanly I want to know how many stacks of bleeds am I looking at on the mes?

Don’t count on any big bleedstacking when you play a mesmer.
The only condition we can spread on a decent level is confusion.
Bleeds would come from winds of chaos, or from illusions trough sharper images.
Unfortunately sharper images is not enhanched by any of your stats apart from condition damage.
Burns would come from winds of chaos or the prestige.
Our only access to poison is chaos storm, and it only applies randomly and the skill is on a long cooldown.

The only place where we can do a lot of bleedstacking these days is under water with the trident+clones with sharper images.

You have to separate “Bleeding Build”s with “Condition Build”s for Mesmers. Condition builds are based on staff with condition duration (Domination) and condition damage (Illusions). Bleeding Builds are based on (Great-)Sword with critical chance (Dueling 15+) and condition damage (Illusion).

If you really want a bleeding build, grab the GSword (or just Sword MH), get at least 15 points in dueling and full rampager build. You’ll see the bleeding stacks at once.

for bleed stucking u must use iDuelist or iWarden. when i was young i use rampager full set (100% crit chance), iDuelist + i sylvari and use elite racial skill. so i stuck with it 25 bleed

Nretep.2564:

You have to separate “Bleeding Build”s with “Condition Build”s for Mesmers. Condition builds are based on staff with condition duration (Domination) and condition damage (Illusions). Bleeding Builds are based on (Great-)Sword with critical chance (Dueling 15+) and condition damage (Illusion).

If you really want a bleeding build, grab the GSword (or just Sword MH), get at least 15 points in dueling and full rampager build. You’ll see the bleeding stacks at once.

So why do you suggest greatsword or main hand sword, they dont seem to be condition related?

drongas.4189:

for bleed stucking u must use iDuelist or iWarden. when i was young i use rampager full set (100% crit chance), iDuelist + i sylvari and use elite racial skill. so i stuck with it 25 bleed

You’re right, I really forgot the plants, since I barely use them anymore. The Sylvari Ulti (the six seed turrets) also triggers sharper images, but they don’t get your condition damage. You easily reach 20+ bleeding stack with those.

Edenwolf.6328:

Nretep.2564:

You have to separate “Bleeding Build”s with “Condition Build”s for Mesmers. Condition builds are based on staff with condition duration (Domination) and condition damage (Illusions). Bleeding Builds are based on (Great-)Sword with critical chance (Dueling 15+) and condition damage (Illusion).

If you really want a bleeding build, grab the GSword (or just Sword MH), get at least 15 points in dueling and full rampager build. You’ll see the bleeding stacks at once.

So why do you suggest greatsword or main hand sword, they dont seem to be condition related?

with [Sharper Images] the only thing that counts is the hit frequency. And the staff is our slowest weapon. The GS has highest ranged hitcount since it has triple hits.

For burst bleeding stacks (not really burst damage) iWarden or iDuelist are the best.

[ Edit ]
I forgot to mention, that staff clones don’t get the additional bounce trait. If they someday would, it’d need a recalculation of hit frequency.

Don’t get too fixated on maximising Bleeding. It is true that using the GS might get slightly more Bleeding stacks than using the Staff, but the Staff (and Staff Clones) also applies Burning a lot of the time; which deals more damage than Bleeding from Sharper Images.

Overall, the Staff will give you far more condition damage than you’d get from the GS.

Nretep.2564:

drongas.4189:

for bleed stucking u must use iDuelist or iWarden. when i was young i use rampager full set (100% crit chance), iDuelist + i sylvari and use elite racial skill. so i stuck with it 25 bleed

You’re right, I really forgot the plants, since I barely use them anymore. The Sylvari Ulti (the six seed turrets) also triggers sharper images, but they don’t get your condition damage. You easily reach 20+ bleeding stack with those.

Edenwolf.6328:

Nretep.2564:

You have to separate “Bleeding Build”s with “Condition Build”s for Mesmers. Condition builds are based on staff with condition duration (Domination) and condition damage (Illusions). Bleeding Builds are based on (Great-)Sword with critical chance (Dueling 15+) and condition damage (Illusion).

If you really want a bleeding build, grab the GSword (or just Sword MH), get at least 15 points in dueling and full rampager build. You’ll see the bleeding stacks at once.

So why do you suggest greatsword or main hand sword, they dont seem to be condition related?

with [Sharper Images] the only thing that counts is the hit frequency. And the staff is our slowest weapon. The GS has highest ranged hitcount since it has triple hits.

For burst bleeding stacks (not really burst damage) iWarden or iDuelist are the best.

[ Edit ]
I forgot to mention, that staff clones don’t get the additional bounce trait. If they someday would, it’d need a recalculation of hit frequency.

I thought sharper images only effected illusions, your making it seem like sharper images effects mesmer weapon skills when you describe the hit frequency in our weapon auto attacks. Perhaps your refering to bleed on crit sigil?

Also, ddoes sharper images effective illusions AND phantasms?

Edenwolf.6328:

Nretep.2564:

with [Sharper Images] the only thing that counts is the hit frequency. And the staff is our slowest weapon. The GS has highest ranged hitcount since it has triple hits.

For burst bleeding stacks (not really burst damage) iWarden or iDuelist are the best.

[ Edit ]
I forgot to mention, that staff clones don’t get the additional bounce trait. If they someday would, it’d need a recalculation of hit frequency.

I thought sharper images only effected illusions, your making it seem like sharper images effects mesmer weapon skills when you describe the hit frequency in our weapon auto attacks. Perhaps your refering to bleed on crit sigil?

Also, ddoes sharper images effective illusions AND phantasms?

Phantasms are illusions.

Clones only attack with autoattack (MHWeap #1-1). The faster your autoattack, the faster are the clones. The faster the clones the more often they trigger bleeding.

Nretep.2564:

Edenwolf.6328:

Nretep.2564:

with [Sharper Images] the only thing that counts is the hit frequency. And the staff is our slowest weapon. The GS has highest ranged hitcount since it has triple hits.

For burst bleeding stacks (not really burst damage) iWarden or iDuelist are the best.

[ Edit ]
I forgot to mention, that staff clones don’t get the additional bounce trait. If they someday would, it’d need a recalculation of hit frequency.

I thought sharper images only effected illusions, your making it seem like sharper images effects mesmer weapon skills when you describe the hit frequency in our weapon auto attacks. Perhaps your refering to bleed on crit sigil?

Also, ddoes sharper images effective illusions AND phantasms?

Phantasms are illusions.

Clones only attack with autoattack (MHWeap #1-1). The faster your autoattack, the faster are the clones. The faster the clones the more often they trigger bleeding.

Oh ok I see what your getting at now.

@Edenwolf: greatsword clones still use the greatsword autoattack, this means that for each attack they make, they actually hit 3 times, giving them a far higher hit rate than any other type of clone. Higher hit rate —> more chances to proc sharper images.

G.Sword Advantages: 3x Quick Hit for more Sharper Images procs. Non-Projectiles so it can’t be body blocked or reflected. Phantasm capable of AoE-proc Sharper Images. The MOST LIKELY to HIT Clone, so if the target is constantly moving and at long range, this is the weapon of choice.
Staff Advantages: Innate Bleeding/Burning in Auto-attack. Bounce x1 for another creature hit or Might (35 Condition Dmg per stack) to you/ally. Lower rate of damaging conditions from clones is mostly countered by the fact YOU will be placing Burning/Bleeding 66% of the time with your faster attack rate (Illusionary Elasticity) and constant Might stack boosting Condition Dmg.
MH-Sword Advantages: 3x Attack with up to 3x Creatures Hit per swing. More chances of Sharper Images procs vs. groups, at the cost of being in melee and needing a non-moving targets to be most effective. Allows for I.Duelist or I.Warden for large bleed stack procs.
Scepter Advantage: Clone Deaths with Debilitating Dissipation have a 1/3 chance for 3x Stack of Bleeds AoE. Considering that a clone being replaced by a newly spawned clones counts … (Only thing I could think of. ^^;)

I run in Rampager’s gear mostly, and while G.Sword does do more damage (Power based), they do roughly the same condition dmg. Instead, I use either depending on the situation calls for. Staff for normal use, due to its defensive purposes and boons to go with MH-Sword. G.Sword when focus-firing down one creature at a time in large groups, Cripple, facing against Reflects/Projectile Block, or staying at maximum range.

I play a condition tank type build with staff and rarly see my bleed stacks over 11 with 3 clones out and Superior Sigil of Earth.

As stated Winds of Chaos has a 1/3 chance to apply burning though and with my gear that ticks for ~700 damage.

Imho, relying on bleed stacks for damage for anything but solo pve and spvp is a recipe for subpar performance. And in those cases above, gearing for direct damage and using those bleeds for aditional pressure works much better than soley relying on it.

In both dungeons, events, and some extent wvw bleed will be capped on targets, and mostly by classes that can stack it with +condition duration (which we cant). In wvw an additional issue is that your phantasms and clones will rarely live for their full attack duration. Once there are 25 bleed stacks on a foe, your damage will plummet.

I tried condition based builds with staff and combos, but that build is less of a condition build and more of a hybrid support with some condition damage and doesnt get close to the “real” condition damage builds of other classes. Dont get me wrong, im not bashing the performance of the build, the constant buffing of everything around you while still applying mediocre damage is useful, but calling it a condition damage build is a bit far fetched.

Then let’s calc the DPS with GS#1 and Staff#1. As base, I use the values from wiki (cast, ddamage, cdamage and cduration). But since there’s no default critical chance or critical damage I just assume 60% chance and 30% damage. Default range is 600~900 for the GS user. I also assume the clones to attack 4x slower than you yourself (I tested it for scepter).

Mesmer Staff:
avgVul := vulDuration * vulChance / sCast
= 5s * 33.3% / 0.75s
avgVul = 2.22
// Note: Here I negleted the vulnerability caused by clones.
// 1clone equals ~0.56 vulnerability stacks making an average of 3.89 with mesmer + 3 clones.

MsdDPS := sDmg / sCast * ( crChance * (1.5 + crDmg) + (1-crChance) ) * (1 + avgVul/100)
= 111 / 0.75 * (60% * (1.5 + 30%) + 40%) * (1.022)
= 148 * 1.48 * 1.022
MsdDPS = 223.9

MscDPS := (vulDmg * vulChance + bldDmg * bldChance + burDmg * burChance) / sCast
= (0 * 33.3% + 298 * 33.3% + 328 * 33.3%) / 0.75
= 208.7 / 0.75
MscDPS = 278.2

// As you can see, Staff deals more damage by consitions than by direct damage
// Let’s ignore the clones direct damage for both weapons. Note: it’s about 2% damage and 4x slower … so 0.5% of your DPS

CscDPS := (vulDmg * vulChance + bldDmg * bldChance + burDmg * burChance + bldDmg * crChance) / sCast /4
= (0 * 33.3% + 298 * 33.3% + 328 * 33.3% + 298 * 60%) / 0.75 / 4
= 387.47 / 0.75 / 4
CscDPS = 129.16

So a staff mesmer (with those stats) and 2 clones would deal
223.9 + 278.2 + 2×129.16 =
760.42 DPS
// Note: Ignores vulnerabilty stacks from clones.

Mesmer GS:
avgVul := 0
// Note: no vulnerability for GS

MgdDPS := gDmg / gCast * ( crChance * (1.5 + crDmg) + (1-crChance) ) * (1 + avgVul/100)
= 300 / 1.5 * (60% * (1.5 + 30%) + 40%) * 1
= 200 * 1.48
MgdDPS = 296

MgcDPS := 0
// Note: no condition damage from mesmer with GS

// As you can see, Staff deals more damage by consitions than by direct damage
// Let’s ignore the clones direct damage for both weapons. Note: it’s about 2% damage and 4x slower … so 0.5% of your DPS

CgcDPS := (bldDmg * crChance) / gCast * hitCount /4
= (298 * 60%) / 1.5 * 3 / 4
= 178.8 / 2
CscDPS = 89.4

As expected, the GS deals more direct damage and less condition damage (0). But as you can see here even the clones do more damage with the staff (129.16 <> 89.4).
But as important sidenote, I negleted those things:
- Vulnerability stacks from clones
- Vulnerabilty bonus from and to your party
- Direct damage from clones
- That burning doesn’t stack (the calculation assumes it stacks)
- Other skills than #1 from both weapons

So far … I’ll most likely keep sticking with the GS
Nretep

I admit I don’t get all of what you wrote down here; but to me, your calculations come to the conclusion that the staff does massively more DPS than the GS… though since you said you’ll stick to the GS, I think I really just didn’t get it.

Default critchance in full rabid gear is 47-48%. Your default critical hit strength would be 150% of a normal hit.

Just done a little testing with GS and staff, it seems they keep around the same bleed stacks on a target even though GS clones attack 3 times, i’m guessing this has something to do with staff clones having a passive chance to inflict bleed anyway but as they also inflict burn to further increase DPS and add Vulnerability for a bit of condition fodder/group support.

For me Staff wins everytime.

I roll Staff/GS. Superior Sigil of Earth on Staff, Air on GS (for now. prolly going remove condition or boon on crit, depending). And yea, it’s rare to top ~ 10-11 bleed stacks.
Unfortunately, ANet made Staff somewhat of a hybrid weapon. IMO, if we convinced
‘em to yank Vulnerability from WoC (which -IIRC- isn’t helping for Cond-spec.), we’d see more trustworthy Bleed procs. Hopefully, we luck out, especially with Trident as a good example of Bleed/Confusion combo weaponry.

From a WvW/sPvP point of view Vulnerability does help as it acts as fodder, those spells and traits that remove one condition remove every stack of it so losing 4 stacks of vulnerability is better than losing 10 stacks of bleeds.

Saturn.6591:

I admit I don’t get all of what you wrote down here; but to me, your calculations come to the conclusion that the staff does massively more DPS than the GS… though since you said you’ll stick to the GS, I think I really just didn’t get it.

Default critchance in full rabid gear is 47-48%. Your default critical hit strength would be 150% of a normal hit.

the damage from the mesmer is 500 vs 300, indeed. This even ignores the (double) bouncing from the staff. But I still prefer GS because:
- the 1 Vul just sucks (seriously ANet, make it at least 3 stacks)
- the staff has dodgeable/ reflectable projectiles
- burning doesn’t stack
- GS has “better” #2 ~ #4 skills

But I do own an exotic staff. I replace it with my GS once in a while when I need the Staff#2 skill (some bosses). After the calculation I understand staff users more, but I still think that the staff is a more supportive/ defensive oriented weapon, while it can still deal quite the burn damage.

My mesmer has 71% crit with the old ascended items. When I reach 75%, I switch to dwayna runes, but <50% is just too low for direct damage or bleed stacks.
A crit with 0% critical damage deals 150% of the original damage. With 30% crit damage (from berserker gear or duelist line) it deals 180% of the original damage.

use staff and trait for extra bounce……

Nretep.2564:

- GS has “better” #2 ~ #4 skills

Staff has the better 2 and 3 skills as well. Phase Retreat is a much better skill for a condition build than Mirror Blade. You want to stay away from your target while conditions do their thing. iWarlock is far better than Mind Stab (gs), unless you enjoy being rooted.

Greatsword is much better at applying bleeds, but the problem with bleeds is even single condition removers get rid of all stacks at once. A decent player with a condition remover isn’t going to notice the bleeding at all, a mesmer doesn’t have enough “covering” conditions to get in the way of cleansing, especially when using greatsword or mainhand sword.