Guild Wars 2

Hello fellow mesmers!

I’ve been doing some theory-crafting and am looking for some accurate data on our illusions. I recently collected the following information from the official wiki:

Most of the attack rates seem to be relatively close to the values reported by others, on these forums and elsewhere, but I have some serious doubts about the damage values. This is especially on the multi-hit phantasms, because the wiki isn’t consistent in how it handles multi-hit skills . For example, the wiki lists an x8 next to the damage for iDuelist, but doesn’t do this for the iWarden. If the damage is “per hit” then iDuelist is our best single target DPS by a long shot, but if 200 damage is cumulative then it’s the worst. It would be nice to get some fresh data to update the wiki with and clarify if the value is damage per hit or cumulative.

I’d also like to get some info on the clone attack rates and possibly damage. Currently the most recent data I’ve seen is from frzn at GW2Guru. The only problem is that he only measured a single attack cycle, which I think is too small of a data set to rely on.

I’m planning to run my own tests when I find the time, but I’d ask that you run some tests independently so we can compare results. Lets get that wiki updated so we can theory-craft with confidence!

Yeah those damage numbers are significantly off and I’m not 100% positive about the timing numbers, but I haven’t done super precise testing of those, so /shrug.

The damage numbers for the main phantasms should scale to the following ballpark (I did a test awhile back on the heavy armor golem, using a power build):

iDuelist: 1400
iWarlock: 1500 (3 conditions)
iSwordsman: 1600
iBerserker: 1350

I don’t think the numbers on the tooltips are the actual damage of the ability. Just some base number. I’ll have to look when I get home though, which won’t be for another 7 hours or so. Sigh

A couple of things:

The primary source of data that the wiki uses to document skills are the in-game tooltips. The wiki is inconsistent about multi-hit skills because the in-game tooltips are inconsistent. As those tooltips get updated and fixed, the wiki will become more consistent.

Second, the tooltip damage values for all the phantasms has been more or less nonsense since the first beta weekend. Those things have never been close to accurate. And it’s important to remember that while tooltip damages take into account current power as well as your current weapon strength, phantasms only take into account current power. Not a huge deal, assuming you have a relatively standardized test process, but it’s something to keep in mind.

Finally, if you update the wiki with clarifications or damage information (and all that should go under “notes” until the in-game tooltips change), remember that the standard setup is level 80 with no traits, 916 power and a standard PvP weapon equipped.

Just comparing the tooltip with that listing of damage, I can say that whoever pulled those numbers up there was not consistent.

Phantasmal Swordsman is showing a tooltip of damage 161 with a Steady weapon equipped, for example.

I collected some data on phantasm damage and am going to update the wiki. If you get numbers that don’t agree with mine, let me know.

I’ll try to get solid skill use times on clones probably tomorrow.

I checked last night and the wiki numbers do reflect the tooltips with 916 power for the staff and greatsword. The only inconsistencies were with the offhand and utility phantasms. The tooltips change based on your weapon damage and power, so the numbers change depending on what weapon you have equipped because each weapon has a slightly different damage range.

What I’m actually looking for is the skill coefficients for the phantasms. The formula that’s been floating around since beta is: Base Damage = (Power)(Weapon Damage)(Skill Coefficient)/(Target’s Armor). If we could determine the skill coefficients for the phantasms, this would help answer questions about what stats to gear. Higher skill coefficients and low attack rates lend themselves to straight Power, while low skill coefficients and high attack rates lend themselves to Precision/Condition Damage with Sharper Images.

Getting the full formula is a longer effort.

In the meantime you can essentially answer the question by testing the raw damage of the phatasms using a Rabid Amulet or Knight Amulet and using math from there. It’s just algebra.

SuburbanLion.8095:

I checked last night and the wiki numbers do reflect the tooltips with 916 power for the staff and greatsword. The only inconsistencies were with the offhand and utility phantasms. The tooltips change based on your weapon damage and power, so the numbers change depending on what weapon you have equipped because each weapon has a slightly different damage range.

Let me preface this by saying that the tooltip damages for all the phantasms are useless and not reflective at all of what the phantasms do. Having said that, what specifically were you seeing that didn’t match? Because while the tooltip damages for all weapon phantasms are (erroneously) adjusted per weapon strength, the utility phantasms are not. None should be, since phantasms’ damage is completely unaffected by weapon strength.

I am not seeing any phantasm tooltip damages that differ from what the wiki lists.

SuburbanLion.8095:

What I’m actually looking for is the skill coefficients for the phantasms. The formula that’s been floating around since beta is: Base Damage = (Power)(Weapon Damage)(Skill Coefficient)/(Target’s Armor). If we could determine the skill coefficients for the phantasms, this would help answer questions about what stats to gear. Higher skill coefficients and low attack rates lend themselves to straight Power, while low skill coefficients and high attack rates lend themselves to Precision/Condition Damage with Sharper Images.

How would knowing the damage coefficient be any different from just knowing the tooltip damage? I see no information that the skill coefficient gives you that the tooltip damage—assuming it is correct!—does not. Just replace everything you said about coefficients with “damage” and it holds true. And is presented to you conveniently in the UI.

Well, regardless. If you want to calculate skill coefficients, the level 80 tooltip damage formula is this:
tooltip damage = (power)(average weapon strength)(coefficient)/2595

2595 also happens to be the armor of the heavy golems in the pvp lobby, so tooltip damages—again, when they are accurate—reflect how much damage you will do on average to the heavy golems.

capric.1896:

Because while the tooltip damages for all weapon phantasms are (erroneously) adjusted per weapon strength, the utility phantasms are not. None should be, since phantasms’ damage is completely unaffected by weapon strength.

That’s the part that’s bothering me. If phantasm damage is not based on weapon damage, like every other one of our weapon skills, then how exactly is it calculated? It doesn’t seem to stabilize when using steady weapons either. It’s almost like the phantasm comes equipped its own weapon. I can’t be the only one that’s curious about how this works. Am I?

capric.1896:

Well, regardless. If you want to calculate skill coefficients, the level 80 tooltip damage formula is this:
tooltip damage = (power)(average weapon strength)(coefficient)/2595

2595 also happens to be the armor of the heavy golems in the pvp lobby, so tooltip damages—again, when they are accurate—reflect how much damage you will do on average to the heavy golems.

That’s helpful information to know. It also seems like utility skills in general follow a different formula that’s independent of weapon damage. i.e. Mantra of Pain hits about the same with both normal and steady weapons.

SuburbanLion.8095:

That’s the part that’s bothering me. If phantasm damage is not based on weapon damage, like every other one of our weapon skills, then how exactly is it calculated? It doesn’t seem to stabilize when using steady weapons either. It’s almost like the phantasm comes equipped its own weapon. I can’t be the only one that’s curious about how this works. Am I?

It’s actually pretty cute! They really do come equipped with their own weapons. You know how each weapon has its own characteristic damage range? Like how 1h axes and rifles go +-10% around their average, but daggers go +-3%? Well if you look at the damage range on phantasms it turns out they they have the same damage range of whatever weapon it looks like they are using. So like warden is +-10% (1h axe) but duelist is +-8% (pistol) etc.

SuburbanLion.8095:

That’s helpful information to know. It also seems like utility skills in general follow a different formula that’s independent of weapon damage. i.e. Mantra of Pain hits about the same with both normal and steady weapons.

Yeah some skills in general are just not affected by weapon damage. My personal hypothesis (mostly based around phantasms) is that they come with their own internal weapon that is essentially an at-level white weapon of a given type. I haven’t been able to verifiy this one way or the other, because precisely how skills’ damage scale with level is a lot less obvious than how they scale with anything else.

simplified: Focus Phantasm owns everything that stays in its range, a close second is the Pistol Phantasm. The Staff Phantasm is nice in group fights where conditions pile up, I had it crit for over 7500 the other day.

Mhm. Which is why I said it would simply be a lot less effort to equip a soldier (whatever is high power / no precision) amulet and just throw a few phantasms against the golem, then swap to 0 power and repeat. The bleed formula can be included with simple math for SI.

Then you wouldn’t need to worry about stuff like what weapons the phantasms are using.