Guild Wars 2

…but without it, Shattering is extremely underwhelming.

It surprised me when everyone was complaining about the Shattered Strength over-buff. Sure, it was great. But does no one actually realize just how freaking amazing Illusionary Persona is as a trait? It’s the gigantic band-aid on the lackluster Shatter mechanic that makes those builds actually work well.

First, it’s most obvious effects are allowing you to use a single Illusion Shatter without any Illusions. Giving yourself an on demand Daze and 1s Invulnerability is worth a trait in and of itself, never mind the potential combinations with other Traits like Restorative Illusions.

In addition, it effectively increases the base scaling of Illusions so that having a single Illusion is 50% of the max potential effect instead of only 33%, it also increases the top-end effect by 33%.

And finally, the best for last, it buffs the kitten out of your Mind Wrack. You see, Mind Wrack is our only Shatter that doesn’t scale linearly. Whereas all of the other Shatters have a set ‘per Illusion’ effect, Mind Wrack’s damage per Illusion changed depending on how many Illusions you have. It was intentionally changed to be this way ( source ) so as to make single Illusion Mind Wracks more worthwhile. So a single Illusion Mind Wrack is approximately 49% of the max effect, 2 Illusions is approximately 74% (37%x2), and of course 3 Illusions is 100% of the max effect (33%x3).

However, Illusionary Persona is coded so that the effect you produce mimics the per-illusion effect of your Shatters. That means that with IP and a single Illusion out you’ll do nearly as much damage as a 3 Illusion Shatter would deal without it.

So on top of all of the other benefits, you drastically increase the scaling of Mind Wrack from approximately 49%/74%/100% to 49%/98%/111%/133%. Don’t believe me? Go try it out.

Now, with that said… I don’t think Illusionary Persona needs to be nerfed per-say. But I think that the fact that IP has existed in this capacity for long enough that obviously the potency it affords to Mind Wrack is acceptable – or at least not considered drastically OP. Therefore, they should just make Mind Wrack innately more potent and then normalize IP’s effect on Mind Wrack to something more feasible.

Numbers for those who don’t feel like testing it. I’m at 1839 Power, dual wielding Steady Swords, and ignoring crits.

W/O IP
1 Illusion: 135 × 1 = 135 (~49.45% of base Max Damage)
2 Illusions: 103×2 = 206 (~75.46%)
3 Illusions: 91×3 = 273 (~100%)

With IP
0 Illusions: 135×1 = 135 (~49.45%)
1 Illusion: 135×2 = 270 (~99%)
2 Illusions: 103×3 = 309 (~113%)
3 Illusions 91×4 = 364 (~133%)

Hi,

That’s some great info, I didn’t know the scaling of Mind Wrack worked like that, thanks!
A quick question: between Mental Torment and IP which one would you go for (PvE-wise)?

Leshay.5801:

Hi,

That’s some great info, I didn’t know the scaling of Mind Wrack worked like that, thanks!
A quick question: between Mental Torment and IP which one would you go for (PvE-wise)?

IP, hands down. MT is only 20%, IP increases your 1/2/3 Illusion shatters by 100%/50%/33% respectively.

Never mind all of it’s other bonuses.

It’s true IP is a bit ridiculous in what it does for shatters…. I’d be afraid to see them touch it though… because I doubt they can get it right. Then again I have the same issue with deceptive evasion being 20pts in a line I wouldn’t go in a few builds if it weren’t for that trait being so strong for clone generation.

However, Illusionary Persona is coded so that the effect you produce mimics the per-illusion effect of your Shatters. That means that with IP and a single Illusion out you’ll do nearly as much damage as a 3 Illusion Shatter would deal without it.

By “nearly as much”, you mean 25% less. 25% is a lot. Do you realize how many traits or how much gear people pay for 25% more damage?

In fact, once you take into account crit chance the average damage is higher (you’re more likely to double crit than triple crit).

Bad logic. You’re also more likely to crit 0 times twice, rather than 3 times in a row. You should delete this sentence.

So on top of all of the other benefits, you drastically increase the scaling of Mind Wrack from approximately 49%/74%/100% to 49%/98%/111%/133%. Don’t believe me? Go try it out.

That’s like a 10-point trait that increases MW by 20%! But it’s at 30 points! Cool!

Here’s an interesting tidbit: I deal about as much damage with a 3x MW using a 30/30 Mantra build as an IP Shatter build does with a 4x MW.

IP is very good. That’s why it’s a 30 point trait. Nothing new here?

Edit: Most importantly, it only augments Shatters. Shatters are 1/3rd (plus or minus) of a Mesmer’s damage output. The other 2/3s being Phantasms and direct damage. A 33% damage increase on 33% of damage is a 10% damage increase. Pretty sure most 30-point major traits are [theoretically intended to be] balanced to do more than grant a raw 10% damage increase, and IP is no different.

Wow, aren’t you the aggressive one?

EasymodeX.4062:

However, Illusionary Persona is coded so that the effect you produce mimics the per-illusion effect of your Shatters. That means that with IP and a single Illusion out you’ll do nearly as much damage as a 3 Illusion Shatter would deal without it.

By “nearly as much”, you mean 25% less. 25% is a lot. Do you realize how many traits or how much gear people pay for 25% more damage?

Err, mind explaining that math? A single Illusion shatter is approximately 49%x2 = 98% of base damage. That’s 2% less.

In fact, once you take into account crit chance the average damage is higher (you’re more likely to double crit than triple crit).

Bad logic. You’re also more likely to crit 0 times twice, rather than 3 times in a row. You should delete this sentence.

Do you even understand how math works? Assume a low crit rate of 10% were you are drastically most likely to not crit. The chance to crit twice is 1%, the chance to crit 3x is .001%.

Rather than doing the quick math I’ll show it to you the long way.

W/O IP & 3 Illusions
-1 Crit: 10% chance to increase 33.33% of the damage by 50% = 116% total.
-2 Crit: 1% chance to increase 66.66% of the damage by 50% = 133.33% total.
-3 Crit: .01% chance to increase 100% of the damage by 50% = 150% total.
So out if 1000 Shatters your average damage is 101.8%

With 1 Illusion and IP
-1 Crit: 10% chance to increase 49% of damage by 50% = 124.5%
-2 Crits: 1% chance to increase 100% of damage by 50% = 150%
Out of 1000 shatters average damage would be 102.7%

And that’s with a low crit rate that no Mind Wrack build would have and no crit damage.

So on top of all of the other benefits, you drastically increase the scaling of Mind Wrack from approximately 49%/74%/100% to 49%/98%/111%/133%. Don’t believe me? Go try it out.

That’s like a 10-point trait that increases MW by 20%! But it’s at 30 points! Cool!

Again, I suspect you don’t understand math. It’s a 100%/50%/33% damage increase depending on how many Illusions you have. Quite a bit better than Mental Torment’s 20%. It’s 30 points, yea, but this is just a portion of the benefits it offers.

Here’s an interesting tidbit: I deal about as much damage with a 3x MW using a 30/30 Mantra build as an IP Shatter build does with a 4x MW.

Uhm, that’s nice? A 3 Illusion Shatter is actually where it’s effects are the weakest, but even then you don’t get 33% bonus damage on your Shatter, you get 16%, but you also get that bonus damage on weapon skills so it’s still not a bad build. However, this has little to do with my statement.

IP is very good. That’s why it’s a 30 point trait. Nothing new here?

Edit: Most importantly, it only augments Shatters. Shatters are 1/3rd (plus or minus) of a Mesmer’s damage output. The other 2/3s being Phantasms and direct damage. A 33% damage increase on 33% of damage is a 10% damage increase. Pretty sure most 30-point major traits are [theoretically intended to be] balanced to do more than grant a raw 10% damage increase, and IP is no different.

You really don’t grasp what I’m saying at all, do you? I’m talking about how IP makes Shatter builds viable by drastically increasing the base damage of
Mind Wrack. You go from a single Illusion shatter dealing 49% of the max damage to it dealing 75%. Thus the comparisons of a single illusion shatter with IP vs a triple Illusion shatter without. This is on top of the increase to max damage/effect and ability to utilize shatters without any Illusions.

Last I checked, no other profession has a skill that does such a drastic change as even the Mind Wrack portion, let alone everything else. Unless I missed the trait that lets Warriors use their Adrenaline skills without anything built up, gives them the third tier effect at the first tier, and increases every tier beyond that significantly. They shouldn’t have such a trait because it would make their base mechanic drastically weak in comparison.

IP is a band-aid trait. It’s the trait we run when we want to Shatter that makes ANET say “Oh look, the mechanic is effective”. There shouldn’t be such a large gap between traited and untraited when only a single trait is involved.

EasyModes point is that yes it buffs shatters but shatters are not 100% of mesmer damage. When comparing to other GrandMaster traits, the damage oriented ones tend to buff output by total of 10%.

So yes, IP buffs shatters a lot, but the overall damage output of the mesmer is something less. Easy’s point is that the overall effect is closer to 10% which is what other GM traits do (overall).

I agree that IP is a great trait, but I don’t think it’s OP. However it’s probably a “must have” when going shatters. Just like the dodge-clone trait.

juno.1840:

EasyModes point is that yes it buffs shatters but shatters are not 100% of mesmer damage. When comparing to other GrandMaster traits, the damage oriented ones tend to buff output by total of 10%.

So yes, IP buffs shatters a lot, but the overall damage output of the mesmer is something less. Easy’s point is that the overall effect is closer to 10% which is what other GM traits do (overall).

I agree that IP is a great trait, but I don’t think it’s OP. However it’s probably a “must have” when going shatters. Just like the dodge-clone trait.

Yes, but you are referencing is the increase to the maximum potential. What I am attempting to point out is the drastic increase to the minimum potential of the mechanic which is far greater than how much it increases the maximum.

That’s why I said that the trait is OP, but without it the mechanic is underwhelming. The end result isn’t overpowered, but the effects the trait provides are too drastic. It would be better for the base mechanic to have that increase to the lower limit built in.

I really see nothing wrong with Ipersona… I find shatters in general to be rather lacking since its a burst/spike skill you can kite, is easy to doge/block, and is effected by terrain.

But it’s always great when on the same level going toe to toe. In terms of numbers I think it ends up being pretty fair. ESP for a 30 trait skill we have to be close to get the most use out of it.

Though I agree a steadied number buff wouldn’t be horrible, instant 9 stacks of might was OP but I don’t think they were on the wrong track when attempting to buff shatters.

I still think the shatter mechanic is garbage, even with illusionary persona. My character feels stronger when I never shatter at all, and build for durable phantasms.

Sabre.1275:

I still think the shatter mechanic is garbage, even with illusionary persona. My character feels stronger when I never shatter at all, and build for durable phantasms.

This is why I lol at the people who say there is no build variety. IMO there are tons of ways to build your char and none of them are invalid.

I think we can all agree that IP and deceptive evasion are two disproportionally important and powerful traits, which is not fun and a problem for obvious reasons.

Alex.9268:

I think we can all agree that IP and deceptive evasion are two disproportionally important and powerful traits, which is not fun and a problem for obvious reasons.

Exactly. Deceptive Evasion helps with generating our unreliable resource and IP increases shatter max potency while also significantly buffing the lower end of the shatter scale.

Dastion.3106:

Err, mind explaining that math? A single Illusion shatter is approximately 49%x2 = 98% of base damage. That’s 2% less.

Actually yeah, I misread that and thought you were comparing a 3x to a 3x+IP. 1x+ IP still remains substantially weaker than a 3x+IP. In this respect, IP simply mitigates sloppy shatters.

Do you even understand how math works? Assume a low crit rate of 10% were you are drastically most likely to not crit. The chance to crit twice is 1%, the chance to crit 3x is .001%.

And? The chance to crit 0 times is 81% in the first case and 73% in the second case. The chance to crit at all is 19% in the first and 27% in the second case.

When the damage is split into 3 attempts, it simply averages out to a more normal crit rate. E.g. it is less “spikey”. When the damage is split into 2 attempts, it’s more “feast or famine”.

This is common knowledge for MMO analysis for the past decade.

Furthermore, you’re using a kittenty example with a 10% crit rate. No one who gives a kitten about crits will have a 10% crit rate. For real examples, you are looking in the 35%-60% range, where it’s much more clear: 1x+IP is much more spikey (both good AND bad) than 3×.

As a result, you’re not really benefiting from either method based on crit rates, unless you are making an argument that the RNG spike is valuable (which is a different topic). And thus, you should remove that line of argument since that’s trolling / mis-informing newbies more than anything.

Again, I suspect you don’t understand math. It’s a 100%/50%/33% damage increase depending on how many Illusions you have. Quite a bit better than Mental Torment’s 20%. It’s 30 points, yea, but this is just a portion of the benefits it offers.

I suspect you don’t understand actual Mesmer gameplay. It’s a 33% damage increase when you’re not playing poorly. It’s a 50/100% damage increase on ~20-15% of your damage output when you screw up. E.g. the trait saves you from being grossly inefficient, and just be inefficient.

Uhm, that’s nice? However, this has little to do with my statement.

The point is there are multiple ways to get big Shatters. A 1x+IP shatter can hit 7k. A 30/30 1x Shatter can hit 7k. A 30/30 build augments other damage as well. IP provides other utility augmentations as well.

Hence, the similar value of two 30 point traits, contrasted to the notable difference between a 10 and 30 point trait.

You really don’t grasp what I’m saying at all, do you? I’m talking about how IP makes Shatter builds viable by drastically increasing the base damage of Mind Wrack.

Sure. Except the base damage of Mind Wrack is more of an interesting factoid rather than a significant factor in gameplay. Not only do you assume melee range with every example, but the premise and context of your argument is that the player is launching 1x or 2x Mind Wracks. In other words, the player is already playing poorly and suboptimally.

As a result, your true argument is that “IP is very strong for mitigating errors” and alternatively giving a modest damage boost when the player is not being bad, with bonus utility on the side.

IP makes shatter builds more viable because you can use the utility shatters without illusions. The damage boost for 1x/2x MWs not only assumes melee range, but serves primarily as a QOL bonus when the Mesmer is playing suboptimally.

[snip: first time I’ve run into the char limit]

Last I checked, no other profession has a skill that does such a drastic change as even the Mind Wrack portion, let alone everything else. Unless I missed the trait that lets Warriors use their Adrenaline skills without anything built up, gives them the third tier effect at the first tier, and increases every tier beyond that significantly. They shouldn’t have such a trait because it would make their base mechanic drastically weak in comparison.

Warriors have a 30-point trait where they double their DPS for ~3-4 seconds when they have a target 3/4s dead. It’s basically free stomps, not to mention nearly guaranteeing kills.

Warriors have a 30-point trait where they can use their class mechanic 25% more often.

Warriors have another 30-point trait where they can increase their adrenaline buildup by 25-75%.

Warriors have another one where they deal double damage on half their burst combo.

Last I checked, this entire thread was about you finding one statistical comparison which opened your eyes.

IP is a band-aid trait. It’s the trait we run when we want to Shatter that makes ANET say “Oh look, the mechanic is effective”. There shouldn’t be such a large gap between traited and untraited when only a single trait is involved.

Per my 30/30 Mantra example: there isn’t.

There is a large gap between IP and non-IP for shatters. Shatters are a significant aspect of the Mesmer class, but not the only aspect. They are also a very significant aspect of Shatter builds. However, IP does not revolutionize the entire class. HM/EM do no less for Mantras. PU isn’t quite as strong, but it also significanty alters the defensive capabilities of stealth. AOE Daze can be obscene for group fighting.

Kazhiel.8194:

Sabre.1275:

I still think the shatter mechanic is garbage, even with illusionary persona. My character feels stronger when I never shatter at all, and build for durable phantasms.

This is why I lol at the people who say there is no build variety. IMO there are tons of ways to build your char and none of them are invalid.

Are you talking about mesmers in particular?

Or do you feel there’s a proportionate amount of viable builds across the variety of other professions?

Yeah, IP is great for shatter builds. That’s why it’s so far into the Illusion line. Anet said they are looking into various builds, weapons, and traits to see which ones need a buff for more build diversity. Now no one expects the mesmer nerfs to stop completely (so IP might be a candidate, but not likely since TW is taking the heat ATM), but if what they told us is true, if I were you I’d be looking at how other builds could be buffed to keep up instead of analyzing why IP is great for shatter builds.

Bottom line: Anet plans to buff builds in general, not nerf isolated traits because they make one type of build more viable.

BTW, did you ever consider a glamour build w/o Confusing Enchantments? o_O

EasymodeX.4062:

Warriors have another one where they deal double damage on half their burst combo.

50% crit chance on Burst skills? Which trait is that? You talking about Unsuspecting Foe?

No, I’m talking about +100% damage on the “physical attack” category of utilities or w/e it was called (Kick, Stomp, Bull’s Rush). Most Warrs don’t realize, but those attacks do rather solid damage. There are a few rare builds floating around that actually stack those abilities and use that trait.

A target without Stability basically gets steamrolled almost 100->0 (can actually do 100->0 pretty easily, except Warrs typically can’t go full Berserker). It’s a really fun and underrated build against non-sPvP bunkers (or just turtle yourself with Shield OH until the Stability expires).

Oh, well you said burst combo so I figured you were talking about burst moves.

IMO, you can only effectively use maybe 1 physical utility at a time unless you’re aiming for the bola + bulls rush combo…but bola does practically no damage. With more than 1, you’re sacrificing a lot of safety (gotta choose between Shake it off and Endure Pain, etc) and that trait doesn’t really do much beyond that. The other stuff (20% cooldown redux on burst skills and increased adrenaline traits) aren’t really much help either considering the various traits that improve performance with adrenaline levels plus the lack of effectiveness on some burst skills (longbow is really the only one worth using all the time and the others are situationally useful) means those traits you’ve mentioned (except maybe Last Chance) don’t come even close to Ipersona.

You’re looking at Forceful Greatsword + Slashing power (2 traits) using a GS to get that level of effectiveness.

Of course, that’s just my opinion.

It’s a top tier trait. That’s a 30p investment. It’s not OP.

Leo G.4501:

Oh, well you said burst combo so I figured you were talking about burst moves.

Yeah, poor word choice. I was referring to burst as “burst DPS”.

IMO, you can only effectively use maybe 1 physical utility at a time unless you’re aiming for the bola + bulls rush combo…but bola does practically no damage.

That’s your opinion based on certain build assumptions, much like “shatters are terrible and phantasm army is the only way a Mesmer can be effective” (as of two months ago). A physical utility build is pretty brutal, although it gets hard countered by stability. I mean, it’s really good, but it is not a universal build, or one that fits the current meta of sPvP (note: it can do rather well in WvW too). Try it out if you haven’t. It’s really fun as hell.

Edit: Specifically, that’s a limitation of the strategy and build approach, not of the Trait itself, which is rather game-changing for physical utility, much like EM for Mantras.

The other stuff (20% cooldown redux on burst skills and increased adrenaline traits) aren’t really much help either considering the various traits that improve performance with adrenaline levels plus the lack of effectiveness on some burst skills (longbow is really the only one worth using all the time and the others are situationally useful) means those traits you’ve mentioned (except maybe Last Chance) don’t come even close to Ipersona.

That’s an odd opinion. A 25-33% stunlock with Hammer Burst skills is nothing to scoff at. 50% uptime on Immobilize.

The Quickness trait is absolutely brutal for builds that are aimed to kill fast — it has no penalty, unlike Quickness utilities, and it activates exactly when you need Quickness the most.

The most ironic part is that you are rationalizing why those traits are not as potent, when I could simply ask why everyone assumes the Mesmer is actually in melee range all the time for iPersona?

EasymodeX.4062:

That’s your opinion based on certain build assumptions, much like “shatters are terrible and phantasm army is the only way a Mesmer can be effective” (as of two months ago). A physical utility build is pretty brutal, although it gets hard countered by stability. I mean, it’s really good, but it is not a universal build, or one that fits the current meta of sPvP (note: it can do rather well in WvW too). Try it out if you haven’t. It’s really fun as hell.

Edit: Specifically, that’s a limitation of the strategy and build approach, not of the Trait itself, which is rather game-changing for physical utility, much like EM for Mantras.

Really. And you play Warrior?

I know a physical warrior can be pretty devestating if they use the environment and surprise, but ‘fun’ and ‘effective’ are not the same thing.

That’s an odd opinion. A 25-33% stunlock with Hammer Burst skills is nothing to scoff at. 50% uptime on Immobilize.

I am a fan of hammer but even I have to admit it is easily countered because of the speed of its attack strings. A physical hammer build, if played right, I’m sure is really good at applying pressure but if it were really good you should see more of them around. I’m stepping out of bounds when discussing PvP so I’ll leave it at that.

The most ironic part is that you are rationalizing why those traits are not as potent, when I could simply ask why everyone assumes the Mesmer is actually in melee range all the time for iPersona?

Well if Sword wasn’t such a good weapon…

Leo G.4501:

Are you talking about mesmers in particular?

Or do you feel there’s a proportionate amount of viable builds across the variety of other professions?

Mesmers in particular as this is the class I pay attention to the most, speaking of QQ threads in particular where people say ‘such and such weapon is garbage’ and ’there’s only one good build’ (currently mainly directed at shattering), or the epic cry babying about not being able to run really fast 24/7.

EasymodeX.4062:

Last I checked, this entire thread was about you finding one statistical comparison which opened your eyes.

Well we’ve already established that you don’t grasp my point or you wouldn’t keep going on about only one of the points I mentioned, going off on tangents about other builds, or referencing the effects of the mechanic for the top-end when the entire thread was discussing how the trait acts as a band-aid for the weak low-end our mechanic suffers from due to the unreliability of Illusions which don’t properly scale with content.

However, I will admit that I missed an aspect in my formula, I neglected to account for how many different ways you could crit twice in a 3 Illusion shatter (there are 3 different ways) which skewed my numbers the wrong way. There is still a less than 1% difference between the two in average damage and there are benefits and detriments to both. The point of the statement was to show how a single Illusion shatter could do approximately as much damage as a 3 illusion shatter when you had the trait equipped.

There is a large gap between IP and non-IP for shatters.

That’s the entire point. I never said that the profession as a whole was lackluster without the trait or it was the only way to play the Mesmer. I simply pointed out that the mechanic was lacking and IP gave it a significant boost not only to it’s upper end (which is reasonable, and thus why Shattering is not OP with the trait) but to it’s lower-end as well.

EasymodeX.4062:

The most ironic part is that you are rationalizing why those traits are not as potent, when I could simply ask why everyone assumes the Mesmer is actually in melee range all the time for iPersona?

Only you assume that. Mind Wrack’s potential was only one of the benefits I mentioned, in fact I explicitly stated that I felt it’s effect on Diversion/Distortion was well worth the trait alone, in addition to it’s ability to combo with traits like Restorative Illusions.

Time to simplify: Illusionary Persona is not OP, though it is awesome. 30 points worth of awesome which is a heavy cost.

Complicated thread summary: While relevant in some respects, thread got overcomplicated the moment it turned into Math Wars 2.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Time to simplify: Illusionary Persona is not OP, though it is awesome. 30 points worth of awesome which is a heavy cost.

Complicated thread summary: While relevant in some respects, thread got overcomplicated the moment it turned into Math Wars 2.

Eh. Even he agreed that the potency if Shatter with and without IP is a huge gap. If just like to see some if that potency made innate for the lower end.

Dastion.3106:

juno.1840:

EasyModes point is that yes it buffs shatters but shatters are not 100% of mesmer damage. When comparing to other GrandMaster traits, the damage oriented ones tend to buff output by total of 10%.

So yes, IP buffs shatters a lot, but the overall damage output of the mesmer is something less. Easy’s point is that the overall effect is closer to 10% which is what other GM traits do (overall).

I agree that IP is a great trait, but I don’t think it’s OP. However it’s probably a “must have” when going shatters. Just like the dodge-clone trait.

Yes, but you are referencing is the increase to the maximum potential. What I am attempting to point out is the drastic increase to the minimum potential of the mechanic which is far greater than how much it increases the maximum.

That’s why I said that the trait is OP, but without it the mechanic is underwhelming. The end result isn’t overpowered, but the effects the trait provides are too drastic. It would be better for the base mechanic to have that increase to the lower limit built in.

I believe what the OP is saying here is. That Anet should leave the maximum potential Mind wrack damage the same. But stengthen the base on which it is made:

New IP + MW w/ 4 illusions = Old IP + MW w/ 4 illusions but….

New MW w 3 illusions w/o IP > Old MW w 3 illusions w/o IP.

the idea being that this way, the increase of with IP over w/o IP is NOT as great, because the base potential damage of MW is greater, and with IP remains the same.

This is why I dropped my shatter build for a phantasm build. Too complicated lol.

Seriously though, I understand how valuable IP is and because of this, it limits us in creating other “shatter builds” without taking the trait. Not taking it is too big of a compromise. Phantasm and Mantra are much more flexible imho (trait-wise) that builds generally differ from one another than current shatter build trends.

Not OP, but useful. This is how grandmaster Traits should be, USEFUL and that is not the case in 90% of the time on all classes.

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

Malice.8439:

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

I think that this hits the nail on the head. A good question to ask, to see whether a trait is out of balance would be…“as things are now, would I drop this trait, for another if I wanted a different playstyle than the one I have now, and not feel as if I were gimping myself?”

I believe what made gw1 awesome, was the multiplicity of builds.

I think that if this can be said of Illusionary Persona, and Deceptive Evasion. Should the traits be nerfed? No.. hell no, a Thousand times no.. lol

I think with IP at least you can strengthen the baseline shatter skills themselves… maybe the clones hang around for an extra amount of time beyond the killing of the anchor mob? The idea being that by strengthening the base… you make the trait " ooh a Nice boost." not." Must… have!!!"

Exactly. Both IP and DE highlight weaknesses in the Mesmer mechanic and are all but ‘musts’ (there ARE builds that can get around them) for builds revolving around using our mechanic.

The word ‘OP’ was meant to garner attention to the issue. As you said, and have saw, that acronym elicits responses, but I did try to specifically refer to only the trait and point out that the mechanic was with without it and not OP with it. My hope was to first then the readers attention and then elaborate. It’s comforting to see several people ‘get it’.

So you cone out with a controversial remark, and then attempt to explain the underlying message. Ever consider a career in politics, or TV?

If they swapped the positions of Deceptive Evasion and Imbued Diversion (making Illusions 30 a choice between Illusionary Persona and Deceptive Evasion), it’d be fine. Then your options would be either much more powerful shatters or the ability to generate massive numbers of clones, but not both. As it stands, I see no reason not to take 20 Dueling and 30 Illusions— you just get so much extra shattering ability by having both that it leaves every other option behind.

Kupi.7864:

If they swapped the positions of Deceptive Evasion and Imbued Diversion (making Illusions 30 a choice between Illusionary Persona and Deceptive Evasion), it’d be fine. Then your options would be either much more powerful shatters or the ability to generate massive numbers of clones, but not both. As it stands, I see no reason not to take 20 Dueling and 30 Illusions— you just get so much extra shattering ability by having both that it leaves every other option behind.

And this!

I think that summarizes the reason that the underlying mechanics need to be strengthened a bit more, while the traits themselves should be weakened, such that the ultimate effect is the same. But because the base power is stronger.

I think people hear " such and such ability needs a nerf" and that automatically leads to " mesmer needs a nerf" when what is being asked for here, is a rebalancing.

making both Deceptive Evasions, and Illusionary Persona " nice boosts to already good abilities" instead of " massive boosts to weak base abilities."

As to placing DE at the 30 slot. I can see the rationale for it… but then I feel since it will cost 10 more points.. might be a good idea if it itself were then strengthened. Maybe the decoy explodes and applies vulnerability ina short range around it as it dies?

But leaving it as is, and then Moving it 10 points further up the trat tree, would seem.. to be nerfing the profession.

While DE + IP is becoming class defyning for shatterers, I do not believe the answer is to nerf DE by placing it higher, but then leaving it as is power wise.

Move it up the line so it costs 10 more points, boost it’s Power commensurately.

Allow me to sum up cause I think it’s funny how this works:

Trait for x skill and x skill becomes better.
Don’t trait for x skill and x skill is likely not the focus of your build.

GENIUS!

There is nothing OP about IP. It’s a grandmaster 30 point trait that utilizes our shatters in while also being in our shatter tree where it should be found.

The only problem I have with well placed traits and skills like Deceptive Evasion and Illusionary Persona is that they shorten the road to max potential. This by itself is a good thing and makes these very strong to have, but my issue is with the fact that ALL other spec’s and builds are nerfed and adjusted based on our maximum potential and how quickly we achieve it.

What I am saying is that without these 2 skills mesmer would be laughable in pvp and would to be needing buffs in many many places to bring us up to par. Which is already the case in pve. Because shatter spec just is not the best unless you’re expecting to get ramrodded by a thief or some other instagib build.

Gaiawolf.8261:

So you cone out with a controversial remark, and then attempt to explain the underlying message. Ever consider a career in politics, or TV?

It wasn’t quite sensationalism. Inevitably many who read the post and, no matter how I said it, assume I just wanted a nerf to IP. So I worded the topic in such a way as to catch those individuals attention and then in the very first sentence of the post explained in bold what I truly meant.

If they continue to think I meant something else after the bolded explanation at the beginning and then further discussion on the matter then there isn’t much I can do.

It is heartening to see a handful of people get what I’m saying. Rather than the tired old “it’s a 30 point trait, it’s supposed to be good” logic that essentially means no 30 point trait could ever be OP.

Don’t most of us get it and agree

Malice.8439:

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

Playing with a new tank/phantasm build. Never shattered while playing and never even summoned a clone… Full time regen and protection though. So these traits do not re-define play styles. I love the shatter build and those two traits are necessary for a shatter build just like the phant regen/retaliation is necessary for phantasm/bunker build. You pick traits that compliment the build you want to focus and that is how it should be.

jportell.2197:

Malice.8439:

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

Playing with a new tank/phantasm build. Never shattered while playing and never even summoned a clone… Full time regen and protection though. So these traits do not re-define play styles. I love the shatter build and those two traits are necessary for a shatter build just like the phant regen/retaliation is necessary for phantasm/bunker build. You pick traits that compliment the build you want to focus and that is how it should be.

then maybe the protection and phantasm regen/retaliation and phantasms in general are OP too so it needs to be nerfed

ichal.9504:

jportell.2197:

Malice.8439:

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

Playing with a new tank/phantasm build. Never shattered while playing and never even summoned a clone… Full time regen and protection though. So these traits do not re-define play styles. I love the shatter build and those two traits are necessary for a shatter build just like the phant regen/retaliation is necessary for phantasm/bunker build. You pick traits that compliment the build you want to focus and that is how it should be.

then maybe the protection and phantasm regen/retaliation and phantasms in general are OP too so it needs to be nerfed

They have been nerfed a couple of times on Mesmer already.

Dastion.3106:

Gaiawolf.8261:

So you cone out with a controversial remark, and then attempt to explain the underlying message. Ever consider a career in politics, or TV?

It wasn’t quite sensationalism. Inevitably many who read the post and, no matter how I said it, assume I just wanted a nerf to IP. So I worded the topic in such a way as to catch those individuals attention and then in the very first sentence of the post explained in bold what I truly meant.

If they continue to think I meant something else after the bolded explanation at the beginning and then further discussion on the matter then there isn’t much I can do.

It is heartening to see a handful of people get what I’m saying. Rather than the tired old “it’s a 30 point trait, it’s supposed to be good” logic that essentially means no 30 point trait could ever be OP.

You will probably find when you make broad sweeping sensationalized statements that it is going to get some attention. OP is a buzz word and far too heavily used. No the skills aren’t OP by themselves, players make them strong by stretching the skills to do what they want to achieve. There is nothing Over Powered about them. It’s a shame that any time something is good or is strong I see 100 posts about OP this and OP that. Get some vocabulary and you’ll have far fewer issues with explaining what you really mean, and far fewer people arguing with you so you can move your ideas ahead.

Wise.8025:

Allow me to sum up cause I think it’s funny how this works:

Trait for x skill and x skill becomes better.
Don’t trait for x skill and x skill is likely not the focus of your build.

GENIUS!

I’m not a big mesmer player although I have one at 80, but I am a fan of mesmers and I just wanted to say I agree with this.

I wish other professions had traits like this and I actually feel the devs could buff more of mesmer traits so it wouldn’t just be “IP is sooo good, must have it!” but more like “I really want IP but….there’s X trait and Y trait in those other trees that I’d like for this build”. I only wished there were some game changer traits like that for Auras on elementalist. Powerful Auras has left me alot to be desired considering the best utilization for them is spreading fury/swiftness (woop…) or protection to allies but this comes with the stipulation that it’s only ‘casted’ auras that spread not to mention the limited amount of auras to begin with…

so basically you want it nerfed. The reason why you had to make it seem overly rhetorical is beyond my comprehension.

Btw, the point of IP is not doing dmg. I can shred my enemies into quarks without even touching IP if I want it that much. The point of IP is generating extra stacks of confusion, extra daze, extra distortion ==> extra reflect, etc. and the ability to slap theif in the face when it tries attempting surprise buttseck on you.

Stop calling things OP when you don’t even understand the purpose of it.

DavyMcB.1603:

so basically you want it nerfed. The reason why you had to make it seem overly rhetorical is beyond my comprehension.

Btw, the point of IP is not doing dmg. I can shred my enemies into quarks without even touching IP if I want it that much. The point of IP is generating extra stacks of confusion, extra daze, extra distortion ==> extra reflect, etc. and the ability to slap theif in the face when it tries attempting surprise buttseck on you.

Stop calling things OP when you don’t even understand the purpose of it.

May I advice you to take your own advice into consideration, and refrain from posting when you clearly do not possess the ability to discern what is being discussed?

ichal.9504:

jportell.2197:

Malice.8439:

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

Playing with a new tank/phantasm build. Never shattered while playing and never even summoned a clone… Full time regen and protection though. So these traits do not re-define play styles. I love the shatter build and those two traits are necessary for a shatter build just like the phant regen/retaliation is necessary for phantasm/bunker build. You pick traits that compliment the build you want to focus and that is how it should be.

then maybe the protection and phantasm regen/retaliation and phantasms in general are OP too so it needs to be nerfed

AND THEY PROLLY WILL BE! So sad. I seriously think Mesmer is the biggest pain to level but once we are fully leveled and can invest in our traits heavily its amazing. And then? NERF BAT INCOMING!!!!!

Alex.9268:

I think we can all agree that IP and deceptive evasion are two disproportionally important and powerful traits, which is not fun and a problem for obvious reasons.

Disproportionally important? “Hey I want a shatter heavy build so I need a lot of clones and ways to maximize the damage in that build so what traits should I take?”

“Well ones that focus on improving shatter damage and help increase clone generation like in Domination Mental Torment, Rending Shatter/shattered concentration (or a weapon specific one if you want like GS or cleansing conflagration) In dueling take blade training and deceptive evasion so that you can produce clones as fast as possible…”

See what I am getting at here? DE and IP are necessary for shatter builds because they buff that build beyond belief WHICH IS GOOD! Traits are meant to make your build feel more powerful and help enhance how you deal/mitigate damage with that build. So yes it is fun and no it is not a problem.

Dastion.3106:

Gaiawolf.8261:

So you cone out with a controversial remark, and then attempt to explain the underlying message. Ever consider a career in politics, or TV?

It wasn’t quite sensationalism. Inevitably many who read the post and, no matter how I said it, assume I just wanted a nerf to IP. So I worded the topic in such a way as to catch those individuals attention and then in the very first sentence of the post explained in bold what I truly meant.

If they continue to think I meant something else after the bolded explanation at the beginning and then further discussion on the matter then there isn’t much I can do.

It is heartening to see a handful of people get what I’m saying. Rather than the tired old “it’s a 30 point trait, it’s supposed to be good” logic that essentially means no 30 point trait could ever be OP.

Which would be fine if your bolded explanation was true; it’s not. There are several builds that use shatters to great effect w/o going MW DPS (Pyroatheist.9031 posted a build just days ago that’s a perfect example), they just aren’t shatter DPS builds. So don’t try to make them shatter DPS builds.

You want a shatter DPS build, you take IP. You want a glamour build, you take Confusing Enchantments. You want a support/healing build you take Restorative Mantras. As others have been saying, you take traits that expand your chosen playstyle. Shattering isn’t underwhelming w/o IP, UNLESS you are trying to use it the same way that someone who takes IP uses it!

Would you even consider trying a mantra support/healing build w/o RM? Do you think it would work… at all? No. So why compare shatter DPS builds w/o IP? That’s what the trait does; makes shatter DPS builds work.

It also doesn’t change the fact that shatters can still be useful in other builds. I gave you one example, just look for a few more more to see the usefulness in shatter w/o IP. They are there.

Wise.8025:

You will probably find when you make broad sweeping sensationalized statements that it is going to get some attention. OP is a buzz word and far too heavily used. No the skills aren’t OP by themselves, players make them strong by stretching the skills to do what they want to achieve. There is nothing Over Powered about them. It’s a shame that any time something is good or is strong I see 100 posts about OP this and OP that. Get some vocabulary and you’ll have far fewer issues with explaining what you really mean, and far fewer people arguing with you so you can move your ideas ahead.

Err, I said exactly “Illusionary Persona is an OP Trait… but without it, Shattering is extremely underwhelming.” Seems pretty straight forward to me. I knew the topic would garner the wrong kind of attention and so made a point to address it early on. I then went on to explain all of the ways in which it made the base mechanic much better and suggested lowering the trait’s effect but bringing up the base mechanic’s potency so that shattering isn’t so drastically boosted by a single trait.

Despite my apparent lack of vocabulary, many seemed to be able to understand my point. If you want to be constructive then by all means do so, but don’t go out of your way to be insulting.

Gaiawolf.8261:

Dastion.3106:

Gaiawolf.8261:

So you cone out with a controversial remark, and then attempt to explain the underlying message. Ever consider a career in politics, or TV?

It wasn’t quite sensationalism. Inevitably many who read the post and, no matter how I said it, assume I just wanted a nerf to IP. So I worded the topic in such a way as to catch those individuals attention and then in the very first sentence of the post explained in bold what I truly meant.

If they continue to think I meant something else after the bolded explanation at the beginning and then further discussion on the matter then there isn’t much I can do.

It is heartening to see a handful of people get what I’m saying. Rather than the tired old “it’s a 30 point trait, it’s supposed to be good” logic that essentially means no 30 point trait could ever be OP.

Which would be fine if your bolded explanation was true; it’s not. There are several builds that use shatters to great effect w/o going MW DPS (Pyroatheist.9031 posted a build just days ago that’s a perfect example), they just aren’t shatter DPS builds. So don’t try to make them shatter DPS builds.

You want a shatter DPS build, you take IP. You want a glamour build, you take Confusing Enchantments. You want a support/healing build you take Restorative Mantras. As others have been saying, you take traits that expand your chosen playstyle. Shattering isn’t underwhelming w/o IP, UNLESS you are trying to use it the same way that someone who takes IP uses it!

Would you even consider trying a mantra support/healing build w/o RM? Do you think it would work… at all? No. So why compare shatter DPS builds w/o IP? That’s what the trait does; makes shatter DPS builds work.

It also doesn’t change the fact that shatters can still be useful in other builds. I gave you one example, just look for a few more more to see the usefulness in shatter w/o IP. They are there.

The whole glamour thing is a straw-man argument, which is why I didn’t respond to it the first time you brought it up. By that logic you should never use any special ability type (Glamours, Mantras, Manipulations, etc.) without the accompanying trait, no matter what the goal of your build is. I use Feedback and Null Field frequently without Confusing Enchantments. Why? Because my build is usually Power based and unstated and unreliable confusion isn’t worth traiting for, especially in PvE where confusion is already lacking and getting enemies to cross the edge of the fields is difficult.

There is quite a difference between a trait which adds a completely different effect to a certain type of utility (i.e. optional) skills and a trait which drastically boosts the effectiveness of a built-in profession mechanic, especially when that trait not only increases it’s maximum effect but the average effect as well.