Guild Wars 2

I had a rather long article on this that I thought I posted last night, but now it seems to be missing. I tried checking other forums (maybe I posted it in the wrong place), but there’s no record of it in my “things I’ve posted” list and no moderator note in my PM box saying they deleted it (they seem to always PM even when doing trivial mods like moving forums or merging with another thread — very nice moderators).

So, perhaps I just previewed it and forgot to punch “post it”. If you’ve seen this before, please let me know where so I can adjust any bad posting habits I might have and/or kill either that thread or this one. Now, lets see if I can make essentially the same post, but MUCH smaller.

I did some testing on my Thief and Ranger auto-attack skills recently. The subject of “scepter sucks and has horrid dps” made me curious. So, I decided to do some quick checks for mesmer auto-attack DPS. The results are rather surprising. Here’s a kill rate table of our main hand weapons auto-attacking at different ranges:

Kill Rates on the Heavy Golem in the Mists:

                 0m      300m    600m    900m    1200m
Sword   13s
Scepter 15s     17s     19s     22s
Staff        ..    (27s ~ 30s)   ..          (30s ~ 35s)
Gsword  26s     20s     18s     17s     15s

NB: staff dps varies a LOT based both on whether you’re in range for a bounce, another critter is in range for a bounce (bounce range is 600m), which buffs you get (fury > might), and which dot the target gets (fire > bleed). Obviously, bouncing is the most important factor.

Big surprise for me on the scepter/1 DPS. It’s essentially the same as Gsword with an inverted range function. Small surprise for me on sword/1. I though it was top auto (and it is), but I thought it was a lot better than just a smidge off from scepter melee.

Here’s come comparison data from my Thief and Ranger auto/1 skills on the same Heavy Golem: 7s thief dagger/1 or sword/1, 7s~9s Ranger bow + DPS pet (either bow).

At first glance, this looks like “omg, mesmer just sucks”, but that’s deceptive. What it really means is “mesmers get most of their DPS by using their skills”, while other classes use other skills only for their effects. For the most part, that’s true.

Ranger literally can’t improve either sbow or lbow by using ANY weapon skill other than barrage on lbow (v.slight dps increase). Using other than skill/1 on a bow will either do nothing for DPS or lower the DPS. Thief is mostly the same. Any skill on a sword other than sword/1 will reduce it’s DPS. Only one skill on pistol will slightly improve it’s dps (p/p unload/3). Two skills on dagger provide an increase over auto-attack: backstab and heartseeker (but only if used when target under 25%).

This makes a Ranger essentially an auto-attack bot by design. Thief is saved from that fate by needing to melee for dps. That takes a LOT more effort to do successfully than ranged in anything other than a PvP 1v1. Constrast that with Mesmer, which absolutely sucks as an auto-bot. We have to actually play in order to DPS. That makes the class so much more fun than Ranger.

Quick kill comparison: I can kill the heavy golem on thief in about 2~3s. It takes me a minimum of 6s on Mesmer (iBerserker bug, <sigh>). Thief and Mesmer need a bit of forethought on the attack sequence and then have to work pretty hard and fast to make it happen. Ranger just hits a couple buttons (auto, zephyr, sharpening, rampage). Dull dull dull.

So, I hope those folks reading this, especially any potential developers, don’t take the numbers the wrong way and think “omg mesmer sucks”. IMHO, Mesmer is the most correctly designed class simply because our skills matter for both DPS and effect. Our bad auto combined with good other skills makes the class fun.

What gear and spec did you use for each? Staff with berserker for example will be less than half the auto attack dps of staff with rabid. Same thing but reversed for sword and greatsword. Also sharper images will make a variable amount of difference wih scepter 1 depending on condition damage and crit rate.

So scepter is a ranged weapon that you need to use at mele range to get it to do damage? The clones that spawn are still useless? Yea, that doesn’t sound in any way good to me still.

Aberrant.6749:

So scepter is a ranged weapon that you need to use at mele range to get it to do damage? The clones that spawn are still useless? Yea, that doesn’t sound in any way good to me still.

Yep, sounds about right. The attack speed mechanic on the scepter is unbelievably stupid.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Aberrant.6749:

So scepter is a ranged weapon that you need to use at mele range to get it to do damage? The clones that spawn are still useless? Yea, that doesn’t sound in any way good to me still.

Yep, sounds about right. The attack speed mechanic on the scepter is unbelievably stupid.

Cept scepter clones spawn in prize shatter range and has synergy with things like crippling dissipation.

All my tests were full berserk, 20/30/0/15/5.

BTW, I did a check on DPS a while ago using condition setups (rampage, rabid, etc), and while it helps staff a bit, it’s not 50%. More like 5~10%. Basically, staff/1 DPS is horrible no matter what you do. Staff is a weapon for it’s other skills not it’s skill/1 DPS.

Scepter DPS doesn’t really change. I suspect the gains in bleeds from clones essentially balance out the gains in direct damage from berserk. All my other (very) casual checks on DPS with and without conditions for mesmer say it’s mostly a wash at best, though some phantasms do a little better with extra condition and precision than with a bit less precision and more power & critical damage (eg. pistol). I don’t have any hard data to back up that statement — just recollections of similar checks I did with keeping the weapon the same and varying the gear.

IIRC, the rampage v. berserk difference on iDuelist was about 10%. Enough to measure, but not enough to make it the only way to wring damage from it. I didn’t test it, but I felt that wasn’t enough to offset the gains for mind wrack from berserk; ie. I like conditions/rampager’s for situations where you don’t want to shatter your clones (mostly PvE kites).

Okuza.5210:

Quick kill comparison: I can kill the heavy golem on thief in about 2~3s. It takes me a minimum of 6s on Mesmer (iBerserker bug, <sigh>). Thief and Mesmer need a bit of forethought on the attack sequence and then have to work pretty hard and fast to make it happen. Ranger just hits a couple buttons (auto, zephyr, sharpening, rampage). Dull dull dull.

Well tbh Mesmer can 2-3 sec burst a Hgolem down aswell, just that our weapon skills in not the core of our dmg dealing. Have a look at Xee,s burst vid and say if its not faster than 6 sec minimum.

Then ofc we can discuss our autoattack and how soem abilitys do low dmg (bugged zerker) just saying that we got potential good dmg.

/Osicat

I feel like pointing out that a HUGE portion of staff’s damage is that normal illusions apply winds of chaos debuffs on top of sharper images, including giving you easy access to permanent vigor/fury from the illusion’s bounces.

You probably already know this, but I don’t want people to think auto attack damage is where staff is the strongest, because it’s passive illusion damage in builds that include Deceptive Evasion with condition damage being a bonus. – 3 normal illusions on a training dummy kills it in 14 seconds (obviously some randomness from burn procs) with no power gear.

Try 20/20/0/0/30 with the bounce trait and Carrion gear and see how the staff works out inside bounce range. Rabid is a better gear set for staff with clones, but carrion is without. I know that’s traiting and gearing for staff, but honestly for auto attack only, you need to to draw any conclusions because it’s damage scaling is so different than anything else.

The other issue is that staff does sustained damage but low burst damage. After 10 seconds with the bounce trait, winds of chaos is probably around it’s Max Dps, but everything else more or less starts there.

Numot.3965:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Aberrant.6749:

So scepter is a ranged weapon that you need to use at mele range to get it to do damage? The clones that spawn are still useless? Yea, that doesn’t sound in any way good to me still.

Yep, sounds about right. The attack speed mechanic on the scepter is unbelievably stupid.

Cept scepter clones spawn in prize shatter range and has synergy with things like crippling dissipation.

Except there is never a time where spamming auto attack 1 is common. Other skill uses usually break the chain which mesmers use more then actual auto attack. If you are just spamming attack 1 you are basically kittening yourself.

Clones spawning in melee range is stupid. They can die a lot faster before you can summon enough to shatter, and its obvious the mesmer summoned out of nowhere right next to you is not the real mesmer.

Not to mention the clone summoning on dodge trait is way more effective in terms of ability use and survivability via dodge itself and a clone that could distract a target then spaming attack 1. WHICH IS WHY SCEPTER SUCKS.

If they get rid if the middle chain attack and have scepter 1 a 2 chain attack it would be significantly better. Which doesn’t change the actual power of attack 1 but instead getting that clone out faster for potential increase in damage.

Ranger literally can’t improve either sbow or lbow by using ANY weapon skill other than barrage on lbow (v.slight dps increase). Using other than skill/1 on a bow will either do nothing for DPS or lower the DPS.

This is wrong btw, see the Longbow-vs-Shortbow comparison on reddit.

Carighan.6758:

Ranger literally can’t improve either sbow or lbow by using ANY weapon skill other than barrage on lbow (v.slight dps increase). Using other than skill/1 on a bow will either do nothing for DPS or lower the DPS.

This is wrong btw, see the Longbow-vs-Shortbow comparison on reddit.

See my tests for lbow/sbow in the Ranger forum and remember, that’s improving DPS with a weapon skill. You can do a LOT with utilities. Ranger is essentially an auto-attack bot. There are a couple exceptions, but mostly every skill other than auto-attack reduces DPS or at best, doesn’t improve it.

Phzt.9864:

I feel like pointing out that a HUGE portion of staff’s damage is that normal illusions apply winds of chaos debuffs on top of sharper images, including giving you easy access to permanent vigor/fury from the illusion’s bounces.

You probably already know this, but I don’t want people to think auto attack damage is where staff is the strongest, because it’s passive illusion damage in builds that include Deceptive Evasion with condition damage being a bonus. – 3 normal illusions on a training dummy kills it in 14 seconds (obviously some randomness from burn procs) with no power gear.

Yep, the auto/1 tests I did are pretty absurd for comparing either typical or optimal DPS from any of the weapons. Mesmer is not an auto-attack class. Our DPS depends hugely on phatasms and mind wrack for fast kills or (in the case you show there) on clones for extra auto/1 conditions and boons.

BTW, I’m pretty sad the rate is only 14s. Comparing that time to other classes says either: start mind-wracking to catch up or staff needs a buff.

Well tbh Mesmer can 2-3 sec burst a Hgolem down aswell, just that our weapon skills in not the core of our dmg dealing. Have a look at Xee,s burst vid and say if its not faster than 6 sec minimum.

Ya, after I did my quick burst check I thought a bit about how to make it faster, but by then I was out of the mists. I didn’t have SOI up for wrack refresh when I did my check; that would give a second spike almost on top of the first.

On an slightly related note, I did some quick checks on Torch skills and phantasm just to see if it’s still as bad as I remember. And, yep, it’s really really bad. Torch phantasm would need a 8~10x buff and a CD reduction to equal our other phantasms.

This is a glaring internal balance issue. Ideally, there should be at least some argument about the weapon being useful and a slightly difficult decision about whether or not to use it — not “LOL, next”.

—

BTW, stuff like Torch being “lol-worthy”, the way iBerserker was bugged in the last patch, and the way iDuelist is the only phantasm where our traits all work point a very big finger at the mesmer dev & testers. They’re obviously only making spot checks with a couple of builds and not really giving the changes a full work-out. They’re definitely not playing the class or at best only one dev is playing a shattercat style.

The changes to the class all have a feel of “OK, fighting a mesmer annoys me when I’m on my (other) class. Let’s change it.”