Guild Wars 2

Why has anet let thief just absolutely poop on mesmers for so long? In what sense was it ok that a class in a entire whole completely nullifies an entire other class? This is exactly the same problem that engis and necros have and it’s extremely unhealthy, this in it’s entire being is why this game will never be “e-sports.” thinking the entire “rock paper scissor” balance philosophy is ok is why this game won’t go anywhere.

Just joining the party i see..

Swish.2463:

Just joining the party i see..

I’ve been playing for a long time, just extremely casually though, and until recently I have finally taken a larger interest in the PvP scene, but after going from wolf to dragon and getting like 2k matches played in the past while I have just finally noticed how poorly balanced this game really is.

Radmage.3741:

Swish.2463:

Just joining the party i see..

I’ve been playing for a long time, just extremely casually though, and until recently I have finally taken a larger interest in the PvP scene, but after going from wolf to dragon and getting like 2k matches played in the past while I have just finally noticed how poorly balanced this game really is.

If only the biggest problem were theives.

Celestial teams anyone?

Feel free to spec Maim or Signet build and compete/beat them?

alanis.6094:

Feel free to spec Maim or Signet build and compete/beat them?

signet?

er…thieves are incredibly good at forcing their opponent to burn their CD, so surviving one second per signet isn’t a very good option tbh. Phantasm builds maybe a way to handle them Radmage, just gotta stop them from cleaving your phantasms. If you’re facing D/D then you have a problem, but they’re generally very rare. And P/D is also less common in PvP due to reliance on stealth to stack bleed.

I run this build and tend to beat all thieves, unless they swap to shortbow and simply evade and outdps me by destroying all phantasms… but that rarely happens :P luckily most thiefes only use SB for mobility.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAscWlknpMtVoxRNcrNiqhc2mPJXgS3p0IA-TJRHwAp3fAwpAQwTAgZZAA

i also still don’t understand until today, what is the problem with thieves.

Just wait for them to finish their random dodges.

Guards are far more dangerous than thieves.

Sick of getting beaten by cele and thieves all the time? You don’t wan’t to have to hide after you missed your burst to the thief? You don’t wan’t to try running away after your burst hit the cele enemy for 25% of his HP?

Scepter + Torch / Staff → Condi.

With condition it’s pretty easy to beat thieves, it’s a lot harder with a power build. I played condition before but I felt it got boring, it’s too easy and just a boring fight process.

For me the problems beating thieves isn’t a bad thing, WHEN I beat them I get the best high in the world. The other day I won a 1vs2 thieves with a power phantasm build I made myself, I felt I could just quit GW2 right there, my goal was achieved, then I realized they where low ranked so back to the battlefield.

There will never be a build that beats all classes/builds, I think shatter is the most capable and for me it’s the most fun. You win some, you loose some.

To compound your point; I mained Mesmer since the beginning of the game (and all through Guild Wars 1).

I made the mistake of running a thief for the past two months or so and I can tell you, I don’t see myself going back to Mesmer after this. Eating Mesmers’ purple gooey insides for yummy boons is just…yep.

Some changes do need to happen.

kylwilson.9137:

To compound your point; I mained Mesmer since the beginning of the game (and all through Guild Wars 1).

I made the mistake of running a thief for the past two months or so and I can tell you, I don’t see myself going back to Mesmer after this. Eating Mesmers’ purple gooey insides for yummy boons is just…yep.

Some changes do need to happen.

Delicious plasma num num num num

Seyiwaji.4082:

i also still don’t understand until today, what is the problem with thieves.

Just wait for them to finish their random dodges.

Guards are far more dangerous than thieves.

Not arguing about guards, but thief will kill u between those random dodges while you are waiting

I remembered not to to long ago when the new power block came to play & the insane cries of frustration from thief players when there initiative was also affected by it. It took like 3 days before arena net listen to there b!tch!4g & render PB another useless trait. Bravo Anet!

and it is a grand Master trait….. srsly….

I wish there was a “Revealing Dissipation” trait.

Shatter mesmers are infamous for being thief food. I’m not sure if that’s what the OP is running, but if you have such a hard time playing vs thieves, I would suggest a different approach (aka build). In anything other than the top tier (which is the majority of us), there are many viable mesmer builds that can be played in ranked/unranked and handle thieves well.

Seyiwaji.4082:

i also still don’t understand until today, what is the problem with thieves.

Just wait for them to finish their random dodges.

Guards are far more dangerous than thieves.

Alt+F4 yourself.

From your logic,you can kill anyone by simplifying it.

for example:
Hambow warrior→wait till he is not CC or AoE around him.
Necro→wait till the necro out of DS.
Engi→wait till he waste his supply crate.

If only the dodges were the thief problem against us.

Seyiwaji.4082:

i also still don’t understand until today, what is the problem with thieves.

Just wait for them to finish their random dodges.

Guards are far more dangerous than thieves.

Ah yes, the time-honored ‘wait for your opponent to be bad, then kill them’ strategy. Sadly, that doesn’t work without an obliging opponent.

That being said, there are ways to deal with thieves, it’s just challenging. I made a fairly extensive post on this a couple weeks ago, I’ll try to dig it up.

Learn from the best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tcjVz12Ago

1. S/d
2. Cloaked in Shadow (blind on stealth)

I have other gripes (primarily backstab costing 0 initiative so it can be spammed until it lands and consume plasma), but if they fixed those two things, it would go a long way towards making thieves a more realistic counter.

Thieves are our hard counter, sure, but pause and consider what is the major issues with them and us. Their high damage, and their stealth, as well as their mobility of course. So how can we prevent that? Well, Halting Strike helps by including some damage upon preventing them from doing something we don’t want them to do, and our interrupts, especially our dazes will stop them in their tracks if landed correctly. Of all our shatters, a well placed Diversion is our best defense against a Thief (imo.). They aren’t exactly bunkers, what they got going for themselves is their ability to just hide from our sight with their stealth skills, something the majority of them will want to do, all the time. Shut them out of their stealth, and they are actually rather easy to deal with, unless they are experienced in using all the evades they have as well. That’s not to say all thieves are easy to lock down though, there are some brilliant Thief players out there, and I’m willing and ready to get bent over, without the flowers and a dinner first, when they come my way. But just like with a stealth-using Mesmer who gets denied stealth, a Thief denied stealth will be somewhat destroyed in most cases. They rely on it too much and panic without it. Then they rage at your ability to interrupt them of course.

For that matter, you could use Moa on them if you are in a trolling kind of mood, though that’s probably best saved for Lich Form—I’ve never been cussed at so much as when I recently Moa’d a Necro in Lich Form I might add. Then I was a noob, a lame Moa user, a talentless puddle of mud under the hoof of a pig, to put it in milder terms than what was sent my way. I’m not arguing that Moa isn’t a bit of a.. troll move. But hey, Lich Form hurts me and my team. Like.. a lot.

Another problem with thieves, is perhaps that they rarely come at you alone. There’s always a Ranger nearby, a Engineer, another Mesmer, etc.—Always some other enemy lurks in the vicinity, and at that point, trying to survive can almost become pointless (not just for us, but practically any profession). That’s when it can get frustrating. Kinda like trying to go at a Turret Engineer on your own. To try take on a Ele built into high sustain with their million heals. A regen-sustained Berserker Warrior. Some Guardians after they got a damage increase while still keeping their excellent sustain. That’s about as much fun as stabbing a fork in your leg.

Thanks for the video link Caelus, I got some work to do.

Bunch of whiny brats: “Anet can I haz the game the way I want?” adapt and overcome demn it!

Absconditus.6804:

…. Well, Halting Strike helps by including some damage upon preventing them from doing something we don’t want them to do, and our interrupts, especially our dazes will stop them in their tracks IF LANDED CORRECTLY …

I’m sorry but that’s misleading. Halting Strike ONLY hurts when there is an “Interrupt”. With their initiative system, very rarely, does a daze do ANYTHING to a thief.

Only hard control effects are reliable(push, pull, ,knockdowns, stuns, etc) That’s why they all “screamed bloody murder” with the initial Power Block.

SlimChance.6593:

Absconditus.6804:

…. Well, Halting Strike helps by including some damage upon preventing them from doing something we don’t want them to do, and our interrupts, especially our dazes will stop them in their tracks IF LANDED CORRECTLY …

I’m sorry but that’s misleading. Halting Strike ONLY hurts when there is an “Interrupt”. With their initiative system, very rarely, does a daze do ANYTHING to a thief.

Only hard control effects are reliable(push, pull, ,knockdowns, stuns, etc) That’s why they all “screamed bloody murder” with the initial Power Block.

Not sure what is misleading about it.

It’s not necessarily hard to daze out a Thief as they try to do an attack, which causes an interrupt. It can be especially easy to daze the highly popular D/P Thief on the HS animation to prevent the stealth and hurt them in the process. By stringing out your clones a bit you can chain those dazes to improve on the chance of the interrupt (Halting Strike) happening at least once, if not more as they potentially try to use some other skill(s). Not all of them are likely to cause an interrupt, but when landed correctly, as in you are interrupting a skill, it hurts them and locks them out of skill usage for a second. “Correctly” would also assume that you stringed them to some extent and not had all shatters occur at once. Anyways, a second is something you can capitalize on by dealing damage and using further CC. With IP you have up to 4 shots at dazing, yourself being a very reliable first daze, and it’s honestly somewhat hard to dodge all the remaining 3 of those clones if strung out “correctly”, once you’re initially dazed. But that requires some play from our side too of course, and it’s not like that’s easy-cheesy mode to pull off all the time with a 100% consistency. It’s pretty satisfying when you land it though.

And that’s of course not all the sources we have to interrupt with. E.g., I run Sw/Sw and GS, so I can throw another daze if I don’t want to try Block an attack (kinda ineffective against a Thief who attacks so fast that they hit you anyways right away after you blocked that one initial attack), or I can switch to GS and knock them back. I don’t run the Mantra granted, nor do I run the Signet, although that are obviously options too for even more of a lock down setup. I mainly play as a shatter would though, in a 4/4/0/0/6 build, with a bit of skill interrupts tied into it.

Obviously, while they are dazed, hopefully in succession, it’s about taking advantage of them being visible and bombing the best you can. E.g., as you set it up (and you better get used to playing up close and personal if you’re not) having created upwards to the 3 clones, shatter the strung out Diversion with your IP hitting first, Illusionary Leap, wait for a potential dodge/Shadow Step for a tiny second, Swap to Immobilize or wait until it will land, weapon swap to GS, Mirror Blade up close and personal for the instant bounces (I tend to run the +1 Bounce trait for some added damage as well), as you do a Mind Stab, follow with the Berserker, and knock them over with Illusionary Wave, perhaps the other way around, Mind Wrack, etc.—it’s not like I can sit here and write out what is to actually happen in combat, that’s dynamic, the IW could’ve interrupted something, they may have been interrupted by the chained dazes more than once, and so on forth, but that’s an example of how something can play out. It can completely backfire and go all in favor of the Thief too of course. That’s what’s fun about PvP right? It not being all predictable.

The very reason that Thief has Initiative, not CD’s, is what can make them prone to playing a bit.. more spammy than other professions. Their attacks are also rather fast, making the chance of a daze train to hit more than once and actually interrupting, at least with how it feels like to me, semi increased over someone who’s a bit of a slower attacker. But yeah, in the end, they are hard countering us rather hard. I would expect to get killed by thieves from time to time. They are the assassin’s, the single-out-and-kill-before-retreating profession. We are relatively squishy targets, very much their prey. It takes a whole lot of effort to fight back and actually defeat the decent ones, where as they can take it pretty easy while fighting not just us, but mostly anyone. I’ve played a Thief for about 1000 hours of the 5200 I’ve played in total since launch. I never found it to be a particularly difficult profession to play with all the stealth available and the really strong damage output. It got a bit more challenging when I gave myself rules of avoiding stealth unless it was for split seconds to use in-stealth skills (such as Tactical Strike) and relying more on evades though, but that’s just me being weird.

Really depends on the type of spec you play and the type of spec the thief plays.

For instance I tend to play a condition mesmer with a good deal of stealth.

I wreck the vast majority of thieves I come across except the really good pistol/dagger players or extremely good zerk players.

You have to keep in mind though that this game is build around a soft rock/paper/scissors design.
Some classes are going to naturally counter others a bit & some specs are going to counter others even more.

Absconditus.6804:

…

Holy walls of text, Batman! If you want people to understand (or even read) your arguments, try to be more concise. Your post history looks like a mass grave for words.

Anyhow, intentional interrupts are very difficult vs thieves (save HS, HiS and bassi). Haphazardly guessing with them can work against some classes (engi, for example), but with thieves it is generally a losing game.

You are not making sense. What is thief counter mesmer??

Like shattering? There is a bunch of shatter builds out there other than zerker such as healing,condi,boon share. Assuming you are talking conquest since we all love it so much, bring mobility try to focus mostly cap points and avoid fight you wouldn’t win or just run a lockdown build or don’t try to roam.

jportell.2197:

Radmage.3741:

Swish.2463:

Just joining the party i see..

I’ve been playing for a long time, just extremely casually though, and until recently I have finally taken a larger interest in the PvP scene, but after going from wolf to dragon and getting like 2k matches played in the past while I have just finally noticed how poorly balanced this game really is.

If only the biggest problem were theives.

Celestial teams anyone?

5 celestial engis on foefire…

shudder

cyyrix.6105:

Absconditus.6804:

…

Holy walls of text, Batman! If you want people to understand (or even read) your arguments, try to be more concise. Your post history looks like a mass grave for words.

Anyhow, intentional interrupts are very difficult vs. most thieves (save HS, HiS and bassi). Haphazardly guessing with them can work against some classes (engi, for example), but with thieves it is generally a losing game.

Oh no! Someone on the internet uses words! On a forum at that! Rude! Call the.. call the.. someone! Halp! It dazes my poor brain to see words written out in paragraphs and I must call it a wall of text, even though it is not by any standards. I am so insulted to see a post that has more than 3 sentences!

And no, intentional interrupts are not very difficult vs thieves. An inexperienced-with-interrupts Mesmer might think that though. E.g., take on their #1. It’s a predictable pattern. And again, that’s why you string out the Diversion with your own Illusionary Persona being very reliable as the first hit, to increase the odds. You try create your clones a certain range apart, before going for the dazes.

Your poor brain able to read this? Too many words to handle? Did my Diversion hit you on the forums again? Maybe I just like playing Mesmer too much if it works here too.

Absconditus.6804:

cyyrix.6105:

Absconditus.6804:

…

Holy walls of text, Batman! If you want people to understand (or even read) your arguments, try to be more concise. Your post history looks like a mass grave for words.

Anyhow, intentional interrupts are very difficult vs. most thieves (save HS, HiS and bassi). Haphazardly guessing with them can work against some classes (engi, for example), but with thieves it is generally a losing game.

Oh no! Someone on the internet uses words! On a forum at that! Rude! Call the.. call the.. someone! Halp! It dazes my poor brain to see words written out in paragraphs and I must call it a wall of text, even though it is not by any standards. I am so insulted to see a post that has more than 3 sentences!

And no, intentional interrupts are not very difficult vs thieves. An inexperienced-with-interrupts Mesmer might think that though. E.g., take on their #1. It’s a predictable pattern. And again, that’s why you string out the Diversion with your own Illusionary Persona being very reliable as the first hit, to increase the odds. You try create your clones a certain range apart, before going for the dazes.

Your poor brain able to read this? Too many words to handle? Did my Diversion hit you on the forums again? Maybe I just like playing Mesmer too much if it works here too.

Agree to disagree on both your defense of word diarrhea and all of the points you’re trying to make about interrupting thieves therein.