Guild Wars 2

Now before all the hate comes at me, read my post! First, I main mesmer in both PvE and PvP. Second, CS is the most facerole trait I have seen in a while. It makes the mesmer in PvP go from a high skill class to spam 3 buttons screw that up wait for the quick CDs to come back up and repeat and repeat etc. So here is my suggestion. Make the stun on daze stun on interrupt with daze. In addition add a 15 second internal CD. And plz, remember, this is a adept trait. And before the mesmers would go into the trashcan etc replies remember chrono is on the way in addition to the above mentioned fact that it’s a adept trait. *hides behind trashcan watching the advancing mob*

EDIT: Quadox.7834 actually had a good idea of completely changing the skill which is also a great idea.

EDIT 2: Guess I needed a bigger trashcan dangit. Looks behind. Oh man, that’s a big trashcan! Hey, what’s that written on it? Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids. *continues to hide

Look guys, interrupt builds are faceroll too now.

SteepledHat.1345:

Look guys, interrupt builds are faceroll too now.

I fail to see how managing to hit GS 2, f1, and a daze at the same time is challenging. Mind enlightening me? Also where did I say interrupt builds are faceroll? All I said was ONE trait that you can take even in a shatter build with mantra of distraction was faceroll. I knew guys like you would show up. If you even suggest the tiniest nerf to mesmer people are like your trying to destroy mesmer or just saying ridiculous stuff in general. I tried preventing this with my OP but……..

I don’t want another interrupt trait, they’re too unreliable for people who don’t have a fast connection. I’d rather have it rolled back to 50% chance if it was actually necessary, which I don’t think it is.

Clownmug.8357:

I don’t want another interrupt trait, they’re too unreliable for people who don’t have a fast connection. I’d rather have it rolled back to 50% chance if it was actually necessary, which I don’t think it is.

’they’re too unreliable for people who don’t have a fast connection."

PvP is based around fast action n whatnot. Just because some people have slower connections than others isn’t a reason to not make a change. If arena net balanced around the idea of not everyone having fast connections the game would be a lot different. PvP is and will continue to be a fast paced game. For those of you with slower connections you can think about trying to upgrade your internet or if you don’t think it’s worth it for you then your going to have a disadvantage. There isn’t really a way around it unfortunately. Not saying I don’t wish everyone could have fast internet it’s just not really possible.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Make the stun on daze stun on interrupt with daze. In addition add a 15 second internal CD.

I have suggested something like that a while back. I am not sure that a nerf is actually needed, but I’d still like the idea of stunning a foe, when you interrupt it with a daze. However, I don’t think a double nerf is ever the way to go. So either go for an increased icd or a change of the trait’s nature.

However, before we really talk about nerfing something, one must make a compelling case, that something actually is too strong.

While I see that against Necromancers this trait is so very powerful, I see it actually significantly weaker when facing classes with high access to stability and/or invulnerability.

I don’t think this trait is any op. If you go for domination you have a lot of traits going for “raw damage” and not condi. In addition most classes have a lot of way to counter that, if you are blinded it fails, if they have stability it fails etc etc.
I have tried it in pvp and I found much better to go for than this trait (specialisation too anyway).

The only REQUIRED nerf is burn damage for pvp balance sake I think.

Yeah, we’ve been through this discussion many times now. If you think making it an on interrupt effect you don’t understand what you’re asking for.

You keep saying “Adapt trait, adapt trait!” but the days where 20, 20, 30 meant something are gone. You pick entire lines now, and where traits fall in comparison with one another in different lines is meaningless now except for when they compete for picks.

CS already has an ICD, it’s 5s. It stops you from chain stunning with dazes, such as using an MoD for a 1s stun, followed by a OH sword 4 within the next 5 seconds. The usual beef is with the synergy CS provides with Mantra of Distraction, meaning a Mesmer can time his two daze into stuns accurately just by using them in conjunction with his two mantra charges. Of course once that’s done he has to wait 20s + recharge + opportunity to ready them again <- Always ignored.

But why stop there? Who cares if you can stun with MoD twice in six seconds. What is the second stun going to net me exactly when my F1 burst skill is on a 10.5-12s CD (add on potential setup time/circumstance), meaning I cant just GS2 MR MoD to my hearts content?

But wait, there’s more! If CS Lockdowns into F1’s/Bursts are so bad on Mes, why aren’t we looking at this “problem” writ large? It isnt as though CS+MoD is the only way to lock someone down for a MR burst. Pistol 5 and Sword 3 should probably get a look at too since you can produce the same result (if you can produce a result at all).

So yeah, sure, make it an on interrupt effect with a 15s internal CD, that sounds balanced. -_-u

TyPin.9860:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Make the stun on daze stun on interrupt with daze. In addition add a 15 second internal CD.

I have suggested something like that a while back. I am not sure that a nerf is actually needed, but I’d still like the idea of stunning a foe, when you interrupt it with a daze. However, I don’t think a double nerf is ever the way to go. So either go for an increased icd or a change of the trait’s nature.

However, before we really talk about nerfing something, one must make a compelling case, that something actually is too strong.

While I see that against Necromancers this trait is so very powerful, I see it actually significantly weaker when facing classes with high access to stability and/or invulnerability.

Stability can be ripped because of your shatters and yeah there are a few invulnerabilitys. If I had to pick between on interrupt or icd I would definitely go with on interrupt. My problem with CS is it reduces the skill required. The idea behind the icd was because some classes have some a lot of skills that are easily interruptible such as mesmer GS auto attack, GS 2 on guardian etc. I could see instead of it being 15 second icd it being a 10 second icd easily.

@Sombrero

Yeah, you can blind it. Part of my problem with CS is there is very little counterplay to it because it’s instant. Doesn’t matter if it can be blinded if there’s no way to see it. So CS is both easy to use ( simply press a daze ), and there’s very little counterplay if the mesmer simply times it with a burst. That’s my reason for nerfing it. Make it on interrupt with a daze so that it requires skill instead of spamming, and add a 10-15 second internal CD so that it’s not quite so faceroll vs GS mesmers, GS guardians etc. Heck, you could maybe make it just on interrupt instead of on daze with interrupt. This would help lessen the nerf to CS without making the class any less easy. All it would really change is GS 5 which has an animation. Just something to make CS require skill/have more counterplay. And yeah burning could use a nerf in PvP ( but do NOT nerf it in PvE!! ).

@Boss Biddle

“Yeah, we’ve been through this discussion many times now. If you think making it an on interrupt effect you don’t understand what you’re asking for.”

What’s wrong with making it a on interrupt trait? It makes the trait require more skill and adds counterplay ( cancel casting skills ).

“You keep saying “Adapt trait, adapt trait!” but the days where 20, 20, 30 meant something are gone. You pick entire lines now, and where traits fall in comparison with one another in different lines is meaningless now except for when they compete for picks.”

True.

“CS already has an ICD, it’s 5s. It stops you from chain stunning with dazes, such as using an MoD for a 1s stun, followed by a OH sword 4 within the next 5 seconds. The usual beef is with the synergy CS provides with Mantra of Distraction, meaning a Mesmer can time his two daze into stuns accurately just by using them in conjunction with his two mantra charges. Of course once that’s done he has to wait 20s + recharge + opportunity to ready them again <- Always ignored.”

Yeah, but the burst mesmer can get in that one second daze is a lot. Combine that with a second one and that’s pretty strong. And you can always recharge it when you go into stealth granted that means popping that while in most of your stealth so it still has a cost.

“But why stop there? Who cares if you can stun with MoD twice in six seconds. What is the second stun going to net me exactly when my F1 burst skill is on a 10.5-12s CD (add on potential setup time/circumstance), meaning I cant just GS2 MR MoD to my hearts content?”

You can either wait for mind wrack to come off CD or just burst with GS 2.

“But wait, there’s more! If CS Lockdowns into F1’s/Bursts are so bad on Mes, why aren’t we looking at this “problem” writ large? It isnt as though CS+MoD is the only way to lock someone down for a MR burst. Pistol 5 and Sword 3 should probably get a look at too since you can produce the same result (if you can produce a result at all).”

Because pistol 5 and sword 3 have animations. They have a lot lot lot more counterplay. Right now CS has very little counterplay in addition to the fact its super duper easy to use.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Heck, you could maybe make it just on interrupt instead of on daze with interrupt. This would help lessen the nerf to CS without making the class any less easy.

This would ruin CS. Let’s look at a practical example of what you’re suggesting. So I use my GS5 knockback, not to set up a burst, but to create some space. I accidently interrupt a skill while I’m doing so, causing a 1s stun from CS to proc. The stun goes unnoticed because the knockback is in itself a stun and the player has to recover from the knockback animation. Now my CS is on a 15s ICD and all synergy is gone from MoD. Also, anytime I interrupt on a pistol 5 (2s stun), CS procs and goes to waste under the other stun. Focus 4’s into the void. Etc.

What’s wrong with making it a on interrupt trait? It makes the trait require more skill and adds counterplay ( cancel casting skills ).

Aside from the above, you can also compare CI’s on interrupt imob (in conjunction with the daze etc) is the same as a stun, meaning if CS is on interrupt it becomes meaningless with CI, which are otherwise sound picks in any interrupt/lockdown build.

Yeah, but the burst mesmer can get in that one second daze is a lot. Combine that with a second one and that’s pretty strong. And you can always recharge it when you go into stealth granted that means popping that while in most of your stealth so it still has a cost.

Dazes do not stop dodges, and dodges mitigate all. You can lock people out of most (not all) skills, but a daze can’t hold back a dodge. Also, you’re assuming the Mesmer hits with his dazes, which can be mitigated, or avoided, even reflected depending on the skill. As for recharging, sometimes you just don’t get to. I assume you arent a heavy lockdown/interrupt/Mantra playing Mesmer.

You can either wait for mind wrack to come off CD or just burst with GS 2.

You mean you HAVE to wait for mind wrack to come off CD, there is no “burst” with GS2. It’s a heavily animated skill, and in and of itself doesnt do enough burst damage to be considered a ‘burst’ -_-u. Furthermore, if you burn your GS2 willy nilly, it’s not going to be available to work into your actual BURST.

Because pistol 5 and sword 3 have animations. They have a lot lot lot more counterplay. Right now CS has very little counterplay in addition to the fact its super duper easy to use.

While MoD (not CS) has no animation, GS2 still does, and because the stun is only 1second, in order to land your full burst within that 1s, you still have to time the casting of that animation which is visible. Unless you’re talking ‘from stealth’ in which case CS isn’t really your issue, and why CS + MoD is even necessary in that scenario is beyond me.

An optimal burst has the GS2 hit with the MR. Mirror Blade has a 3/4s cast time. Players aware of the Mesmer know that when they see it, dodging is a good idea. I see it all the time.

@Ross Biddle:
Your quoting confused me. I thought you were trying to argue my position… but became confused when reading your post further^^

TyPin.9860:

@Ross Biddle:
Your quoting confused me. I thought you were trying to argue my position… but became confused when reading your post further^^

Fixed.

That’s a whole lot of tears over a very short duration single target stun with a 5 sec CD. Your suggestions are ludicrous to say the least, might as well remove CS as an option if you’re going to bury it like that.

Sounds like the typical “someone got owned in 1v1 in a GvG/WvW game” whine thread.

In the list of things that need balance adjustments in regards to 1v1 balance, if that should ever be Anet’s goal, I’d say there are at least a dozen other issues of higher priority.

’This would ruin CS. Let’s look at a practical example of what you’re suggesting. So I use my GS5 knockback, not to set up a burst, but to create some space. I accidently interrupt a skill while I’m doing so, causing a 1s stun from CS to proc. The stun goes unnoticed because the knockback is in itself a stun and the player has to recover from the knockback animation. Now my CS is on a 15s ICD and all synergy is gone from MoD. Also, anytime I interrupt on a pistol 5 (2s stun), CS procs and goes to waste under the other stun. Focus 4’s into the void. Etc."

True, didn’t think about the fact that the stun would override the nockback and stuff. It was a hastily thought out idea on the spot. I was thinking it would help out the nerf to CS.

“Aside from the above, you can also compare CI’s on interrupt imob (in conjunction with the daze etc) is the same as a stun, meaning if CS is on interrupt it becomes meaningless with CI, which are otherwise sound picks in any interrupt/lockdown build.”

Yeah, CS does become less useful with CI. What’s wrong with that?

“Dazes do not stop dodges, and dodges mitigate all. You can lock people out of most (not all) skills, but a daze can’t hold back a dodge. Also, you’re assuming the Mesmer hits with his dazes, which can be mitigated, or avoided, even reflected depending on the skill. As for recharging, sometimes you just don’t get to. I assume you arent a heavy lockdown/interrupt/Mantra playing Mesmer.”

Ment to say stun not daze because I was talking about CS.

“You mean you HAVE to wait for mind wrack to come off CD, there is no “burst” with GS2. It’s a heavily animated skill, and in and of itself doesnt do enough burst damage to be considered a ‘burst’ -_-u.

It depends what you call a “burst”. GS 2 can be a very nice follow up to your previous “burst”. As for the animation, you can easily time it with the stun to get it off.

“Furthermore, if you burn your GS2 willy nilly”

You still get the damage. How is it willy nilly?

" it’s not going to be available to work into your actual BURST."

Not every “burst” has to be the maximum burst. Not to mention you might have it up when your ready to mindwrack next.

“While MoD (not CS) has no animation, GS2 still does, and because the stun is only 1second, in order to land your full burst within that 1s, you still have to time the casting of that animation which is visible. Unless you’re talking ‘from stealth’ in which case CS isn’t really your issue, and why CS + MoD is even necessary in that scenario is beyond me.

An optimal burst has the GS2 hit with the MR. Mirror Blade has a 3/4s cast time. Players aware of the Mesmer know that when they see it, dodging is a good idea. I see it all the time."

You start the animation, then slightly after you start the animation ( before they have time to dodge ), you activate CS. When GS 2 hits the person is still stunned.

I’m a bit confused. Your reason for not making it on interrupt with daze with a 10 second internal CD is because it wouldn’t be as good in a lockdown build ( just like shatter and condition damage ). If you really need to you can buff some other mesmer thing to counteract CS becoming less faceroll ( And thus getting nerfed. I don’t see how you can both make CS less faceroll and not have it nerfed. ).

Windwalker.7421:

That’s a whole lot of tears over a very short duration single target stun with a 5 sec CD. Your suggestions are ludicrous to say the least, might as well remove CS as an option if you’re going to bury it like that.

Sounds like the typical “someone got owned in 1v1 in a GvG/WvW game” whine thread.

In the list of things that need balance adjustments in regards to 1v1 balance, if that should ever be Anet’s goal, I’d say there are at least a dozen other issues of higher priority.

New I would get posts like this. Half of the mesmer community is ridiculous. Remember, this is GW2, not battlefield 4. Surprisingly there isn’t any tears running down my face at all. I fail to see how CS would be so bad it might as well not exist. A 1 second stun on interupt with a daze on a 10 second internal CD is just fine. If your good you can just interupt one of there abilitys and burst. And a 10 second CD prevents this from being too strong. A 1 second stun that doesn’t have an animation is pretty strong. Especially if you compare it to the other adept traits. If nothing else it would make the other adept traits there come a little bit closer to being used ( if you take mantra of distraction CS is still probably better ).

“Sounds like the typical “someone got owned in 1v1 in a GvG/WvW game” whine thread."

No, seeing as I main mesmer I would get equally nerfed and thus it wouldn’t change anything. You would know this if you bothered reading my OP.

‘In the list of things that need balance adjustments in regards to 1v1 balance, if that should ever be Anet’s goal, I’d say there are at least a dozen other issues of higher priority."

No doubt there are definitely other bigger issues. But I still believe this is a issue. And seeing as I’m a main mesmer this is one I happend to notice. So I’m pointing it out and discussing a solution. In fact I have refused to take CS a couple of days after the june 23rd patch hit to now except for a few times.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

’This would ruin CS. Let’s look at a practical example of what you’re suggesting. So I use my GS5 knockback, not to set up a burst, but to create some space. I accidently interrupt a skill while I’m doing so, causing a 1s stun from CS to proc. The stun goes unnoticed because the knockback is in itself a stun and the player has to recover from the knockback animation. Now my CS is on a 15s ICD and all synergy is gone from MoD. Also, anytime I interrupt on a pistol 5 (2s stun), CS procs and goes to waste under the other stun. Focus 4’s into the void. Etc."

True, didn’t think about the fact that the stun would override the nockback and stuff. It was a hastily thought out idea on the spot. I was thinking it would help out the nerf to CS.

Pretty much its time for a recap.

1) Your best argument is that you feel its “faceroll”
2) You also think it makes Mesmer to “easy”

So you’re toiling in a world of the subjective right now.

3) Particulars of your sub arguments, including nerfing ideas, have been outargued.

Leaving the thread back at-

4) A justified explination of what’s really wrong with CS, and how it’s OP.

So do you have anything to answer 4 with without saying 1 and 2? 1 hasnt been justified (and good luck doing it), and 2 presumes it’s a problem beyond your feelings of not liking it -_-u.

IF you can get through the above part, then you’re welcome to suggest an suitable change, though it’s fair to note you’ve not done a good job at that. Let’s also point out at this point that CS was changed from a 50% chance to 1s stun on daze to a 100% chance to 1s stun on daze by the devs for a reason.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Windwalker.7421:

That’s a whole lot of tears over a very short duration single target stun with a 5 sec CD. Your suggestions are ludicrous to say the least, might as well remove CS as an option if you’re going to bury it like that.

Sounds like the typical “someone got owned in 1v1 in a GvG/WvW game” whine thread.

In the list of things that need balance adjustments in regards to 1v1 balance, if that should ever be Anet’s goal, I’d say there are at least a dozen other issues of higher priority.

I fail to see how CS would be so bad it might as well not exist. A 1 second stun on interupt with a daze on a 10 second internal CD is just fine. If your good you can just interupt one of there abilitys and burst. And a 10 second CD prevents this from being too strong.

And seeing as I’m a main mesmer this is one I happens to notice. So I’m pointing it out and discussing a solution. In fact I have refused to take CS a couple of days after the june 23rd patch hit to now except for a few times.

So to put it plainly – You’re asking for changes to a feature you’ve not been using since it was introduced on a class you main that doesn’t use it anyway, and apparently that’s a nerf to you too, but also you feel you have the experience to speak authoritatively on it in any practical way?

The way you talk about “burst”, and your balance suggestions, really doesn’t give me confidence in your ability in these areas.

it’s face roll vs zerker players with low skill level. It’s not really oped at all. I actually started to save my dazes for defense lately rather than using it to land shatter. A decent player knows a shatter is inc once they get mantra stuned and will pop a breaker and dodge so the stun really becomes a tell for your opponents.

“Pretty much its time for a recap.

1) Your best argument is that you feel its “faceroll”
2) You also think it makes Mesmer to “easy”

So you’re toiling in a world of the subjective right now."

Are you trying to say spamming 3 buttons to get off your burst is NOT super easy? Just want to double check before I burst out laughing. I pressed P R and E fast while typing pressed I’m so pro.

“3) Particulars of your sub arguments, including nerfing ideas, have been outargued.”

I already addressed everything of yours. Mind showing where I went wrong? So far the only half competant thing you said was because it wouldn’t work well with CI and thus would nerf lockdown builds ( it would also nerf power and condition damage builds ). And I said you can buff some other mesmer trait if you really thing it’s that big of a nerf. Totally ignoring the fact chrono is on the way.

“Leaving the thread back at-

4) A justified explination of what’s really wrong with CS, and how it’s OP."

Like I have already said, CS should get changed because the trait has very little counterplay/is too rewarding for the skill required.

“Let’s also point out at this point that CS was changed from a 50% chance to 1s stun on daze to a 100% chance to 1s stun on daze by the devs for a reason.”

Just because a dev made a change doesn’t make the change a good one.

Something that may seem totally random now but may have to be used in a upcoming example if you continue on with this. Would you consider a nerf to burning good or bad? Presuming you could nerf the damage done by however much you wanted. If not, what other significant change would you want made to game balance?

EDIT:

“So to put it plainly – You’re asking for changes to a feature you’ve not been using since it was introduced on a class you main that doesn’t use it anyway, and apparently that’s a nerf to you too, but also you feel you have the experience to speak authoritatively on it in any practical way?”

You know WHY I haven’t been using it? You don’t have to have used CS for days on end to be able to discuss a nerf about it. Surprisingly. And the one guy was talking about me whining just because I lost a duel. If that was really the case why wouldn’t I take CS? And if that was the case, this whole nerf thing because I got beaten by a mesmer with CS would equally nerf me. Also I’m still waiting for you have to come up with another idea as to what’s wrong with mine. All of yours got shot down. Or you could try and revive them again. Either way, your last reply was kinda useless. Oh and yeah this whole burning or balance change you would make would like for you to include that in your next post if you reply.

Mogar.9216:

it’s face roll vs zerker players with low skill level. It’s not really oped at all. I actually started to save my dazes for defense lately rather than using it to land shatter. A decent player knows a shatter is inc once they get mantra stuned and will pop a breaker and dodge so the stun really becomes a tell for your opponents.

You can time the stun with your burst so that they can’t stunbreak it in time 99.999999% of the time unless you have a teleport like blink.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

“Pretty much its time for a recap.

1) Your best argument is that you feel its “faceroll”
2) You also think it makes Mesmer to “easy”

So you’re toiling in a world of the subjective right now."

Are you trying to say spamming 3 buttons to get off your burst is NOT super easy? Just want to double check before I burst out laughing. I pressed P R and E fast while typing pressed I’m so pro.

“3) Particulars of your sub arguments, including nerfing ideas, have been outargued.”

I already addressed everything of yours. Mind showing where I went wrong? So far the only half competant thing you said was because it wouldn’t work well with CI and thus would nerf lockdown builds ( it would also nerf power and condition damage builds ). And I said you can buff some other mesmer trait if you really thing it’s that big of a nerf. Totally ignoring the fact chrono is on the way.

“Leaving the thread back at-

4) A justified explination of what’s really wrong with CS, and how it’s OP."

Like I have already said, CS should get changed because the trait has very little counterplay/is too rewarding for the skill required.

“Let’s also point out at this point that CS was changed from a 50% chance to 1s stun on daze to a 100% chance to 1s stun on daze by the devs for a reason.”

Just because a dev made a change doesn’t make the change a good one.

Something that may seem totally random now but may have to be used in a upcoming example if you continue on with this. Would you consider a nerf to burning good or bad? Presuming you could nerf the damage done by however much you wanted. If not, what other significant change would you want made to game balance?

EDIT:

“So to put it plainly – You’re asking for changes to a feature you’ve not been using since it was introduced on a class you main that doesn’t use it anyway, and apparently that’s a nerf to you too, but also you feel you have the experience to speak authoritatively on it in any practical way?”

You know WHY I haven’t been using it? You don’t have to have used CS for days on end to be able to discuss a nerf about it. Surprisingly. And the one guy was talking about me whining just because I lost a duel. If that was really the case why wouldn’t I take CS? And if that was the case, this whole nerf thing because I got beaten by a mesmer with CS would equally nerf me. Also I’m still waiting for you have to come up with another idea as to what’s wrong with mine. All of yours got shot down. Or you could try and revive them again. Either way, your last reply was kinda useless. Oh and yeah this whole burning or balance change you would make would like for you to include that in your next post if you reply.

The comparable nerf of my example about the dev to burning would be that burning was changed by a Dev. People biggest fear is its return (for some classes if not all) to obscurity.

Demanding I come up with anything is misguided. The burden of proof is on you.

And yes, you can discuss CS, or whatever you like. Just because you can discuss it doesn’t automatically mean you’ve got anything meaningful to say.

Case in point, if you were using CS out of the gate when everybody was running their latest zerker builds, and MoD had a behind the charge cd going etc, yeah it was super effective in play.

Now though like the other poster said, everybody’s adapted. CS is still good, but what exactly is the problem with it again?

It’s only really strong with mantra of distraction. Normally you only have F3 daze which already has a long cd. Not to mention, F3 is only reliable with self-shatter.

However, mantra of distraction is only taken by pure interruption builds at the cost of either portal or decoy which is quite a bit of investment.

Exciton.8942:

It’s only really strong with mantra of distraction. Normally you only have F3 daze which already has a long cd. Not to mention, F3 is only reliable with self-shatter.

However, mantra of distraction is only taken by pure interruption builds at the cost of either portal or decoy which is quite a bit of investment.

Your first paragraph is opinionated. CS is powerful with any daze.

Seems like Kormir has spoken through Ross. I can always depend on my friends to dish out common sense on the forums.

While the OP is, imo, wrong on how the trait should be “nerfed”, I do agree with his/her general sentiments that a rework should be done. I suggest that the OP re-evaluate his position and instead take a look at the most recently helpful & constructive discussion on this trait:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Confounding-Suggestions-Suggestion/first

Exciton.8942:

It’s only really strong with mantra of distraction. Normally you only have F3 daze which already has a long cd. Not to mention, F3 is only reliable with self-shatter.

However, mantra of distraction is only taken by pure interruption builds at the cost of either portal or decoy which is quite a bit of investment.

Yeah, I really hope sometime they make it so daze doesn’t override your stun cause that’s annoying. And yeah mantra of distraction normally isn’t taken in world tournaments and stuff. However, portal becomes significantly less useful in solo Q. In addition, in WvW portal also isn’t normally taken. So since it’s not used in world tournaments I figured try and make it more balanced around solo Q and WvW. I think most people just see the word “nerf” and “mesmer” in my original post and are freaking out. My point in nerfing CS isn’t because I want to nerf the class ( which is my main ), it’s because I want some counterplay to CS and make it more skillful. I even said in a later post of mine you can buff some other mesmer trait if you really need.

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

@mail

Yeah increasing the internal CD would be good. But would it be enough? Making it on interrupt on daze would add more counterplay. Right now you get stunned and then bursted without being able to do anything. By the time you stunbreak the burst has already happened. If you make it on interrupt now you can cancel cast your skills at the right time depending on the opponent your playing to try and avoid getting stunned. And yeah 15 seconds probably was too long. I feel 10 seconds would be much better. And making it per person is also a good idea.

@Wishes

xD

“CS is cancer in combination with distraction mantra because it allows unskilled players to easily land bursts willy nilly”

Pretty much this, tho I wouldn’t use the word caner. Half of your post makes sense and the other half says you might be mocking me. If you are very good! Had me confused!

Wishes.3021:

CS is cancer in combination with distraction mantra because it allows unskilled players to easily land bursts willy nilly. Skilled players don’t need a kitten insta-cast stun to land a burst and thus there are far better options other than mantra of distraction as far as utility skills go. CS is essentially a skill for noobs. Better remove it from the game entirely so people actually have to learn how to play without training wheels.
Memser is now a class for noobs between PU, CS, and the entirely passive chaos and inspiration traitlines.
I main mesmer by the way.

Playing to win
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

Balancing for skill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

Wishes.3021:

CS is cancer in combination with distraction mantra because it allows unskilled players to easily land bursts willy nilly. Skilled players don’t need a kitten insta-cast stun to land a burst and thus there are far better options other than mantra of distraction as far as utility skills go. CS is essentially a skill for noobs. Better remove it from the game entirely so people actually have to learn how to play without training wheels.
Memser is now a class for noobs between PU, CS, and the entirely passive chaos and inspiration traitlines.
I main mesmer by the way.

You sound like an elitist kitten. And I doubt you are in the top 10% of Mesmer players, so this attitude is severely unwarranted.

@mail
Yeah increasing the internal CD would be good. But would it be enough? Making it on interrupt on daze would add more counterplay. Right now you get stunned and then bursted without being able to do anything. By the time you stunbreak the burst has already happened. If you make it on interrupt now you can cancel cast your skills at the right time depending on the opponent your playing to try and avoid getting stunned. And yeah 15 seconds probably was too long. I feel 10 seconds would be much better. And making it per person is also a good idea.

It would be a enough. In terms of what you describe: we have an interrupt—>lockdown trait already and it’s called “Chaotic Interruption”. Again, I agree with an increased CD of 10s but ONLY with the addition of it being per target. I don’t care to mince words and argue back and forth about what is enough counter-play and what isn’t.

I suggest moving the discussion to the other thread considering I think it is the most constructive and best chance at us getting it balanced in the right way.

I saw somewhere a suggestion to simply remove the trait and instead “your control effects remove an additional stability” which I think made sense.

Wishes.3021:

MailMail.6534:

You sound like an elitist kitten. And I doubt you are in the top 10% of Mesmer players, so this attitude is severely unwarranted.

Mate I don’t care where anybody ranks me as a Mesmer player the fact is no top mesmers play with mantra of distraction and the point remains it’s only for people who aren’t skilled enough to land a burst without locking their target in place
And Mesmer is getting more and more passive with each patch and that’s why I’m really starting to move away from it. Maybe chrono will change that but we’ll see
Oh and FYI if you want to duel me any time so you can rate me just HMU in game

LOLok

May Lyssa bless you in whatever future profession you play.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

The question of counterplay was already address in this thread. To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades. Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades, thieves in particular do this. More’over the following bursts are mitigated with invulns. I do enjoy a good Ranger who waits to use his Lightning Reflects on an MoD stun/interrupt because he not only gets the stun break, the imob cleanse, but also an evade and gap opener. Most players just build tankier though and avoid the danger of a big burst to begin with. Now, before you go wiping all this away with a haphazard “but stability gets stripped”, so what? Stability is still a counter to CC. Stripping is the counter to the counter. That we need counters, and counters to counters means things are working well.

The conclusion here is that CS has plenty of counterplay already, and making it harder to use equates to little more than redesigning it poorly. Oh and another GM that’d be ushered into obscurity with the suggestions you’ve made would be Mental Anguish. It’d no longer compete with Power Block, and sees little enough use as is.

Here is the only good change I’ve seen suggested to CS, and if I remember rightly it was made under the old “bugged” mantras.

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

Silverkey.2078:

I saw somewhere a suggestion to simply remove the trait and instead “your control effects remove an additional stability” which I think made sense.

I’d never willfully use a control effect to remove a stack of stability -_-u

I want the control effect. If I could remove the stability it’d be in some other way prior to using my CC.

StickerHappy.8052:

Exciton.8942:

It’s only really strong with mantra of distraction. Normally you only have F3 daze which already has a long cd. Not to mention, F3 is only reliable with self-shatter.

However, mantra of distraction is only taken by pure interruption builds at the cost of either portal or decoy which is quite a bit of investment.

Your first paragraph is opinionated. CS is powerful with any daze.

OMG LOL. Of course, everything I posted is MY OWN OPINION. Do I have to add IMO in front of every paragraph I post? Same thing with everyone’s post, it is THEIR opinion.

And plz learn to put things into context and stop playing word games. Surely I know stun is strong on any class any skill….

Last but not least, you are the most annoying poster in this subforum. And surely that is just my opinion.

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

The question of counterplay was already address in this thread. To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades. Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades, thieves in particular do this. More’over the following bursts are mitigated with invulns. I do enjoy a good Ranger who waits to use his Lightning Reflects on an MoD stun/interrupt because he not only gets the stun break, the imob cleanse, but also an evade and gap opener. Most players just build tankier though and avoid the danger of a big burst to begin with. Now, before you go wiping all this away with a haphazard “but stability gets stripped”, so what? Stability is still a counter to CC. Stripping is the counter to the counter. That we need counters, and counters to counters means things are working well.

The conclusion here is that CS has plenty of counterplay already, and making it harder to use equates to little more than redesigning it poorly. Oh and another GM that’d be ushered into obscurity with the suggestions you’ve made would be Mental Anguish. It’d no longer compete with Power Block, and sees little enough use as is.

Here is the only good change I’ve seen suggested to CS, and if I remember rightly it was made under the old “bugged” mantras.

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

“To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades.”

Problem is there is no tell for mantra of distraction. Which leads us to the following:

“Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades”

I’m a bit confused as to what you are saying here. Are you trying to say you dodge and after you dodge the enemy uses the stun? If so I don’t see how that quite works. The only counterplay right now to it is predicting it. Which only works if your enemy is a complete idiot and does everything pretty much exactly the same. Having fought a ton of thieves I know what a pain predicting can be. Fortunately most thieves blow there steal when at a distance. Vs a mesmer you don’t have this.

err. my main issue is the meta for mesmer is just stealthing and restealting trying to get a invis shatter on someone. it took a profession that was out in the open skillful and made it = to a thief pushing steal from out of los.

ugg.. my shatter missed.. i better blurr to stall until reveal is over so i can restealth again.. ugg missed that shatter too.. better distortion so i can stealth again..

old days=best days.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Silverkey.2078:

I saw somewhere a suggestion to simply remove the trait and instead “your control effects remove an additional stability” which I think made sense.

I’d never willfully use a control effect to remove a stack of stability -_-u

I want the control effect. If I could remove the stability it’d be in some other way prior to using my CC.

That actually sounds pretty strong with Diversion. Fits Mesmer better than Revenant anyway IMO.

Wishes.3021:

the fact is no top mesmers play with mantra of distraction and the point remains it’s only for people who aren’t skilled enough to land a burst without locking their target in place

Wrong. There is one top mesmer every week in ESL (NA) who uses mantra of recovery and distraction with a staff/GS dom/duel/insp build. And before mantra got “fixed” (when they had their recharge in the background) most top mesmers ran mantras. The only reason it is not used as much is because the current meta build was deemed better (i.e. PU with decoy was deemed better than the mantra). In competitions players usually play what is the most efficient (which depends on their playstyle of course, but usually end up being the same meta build), so if mantra helps, they run it, but decoy helps more.

And honestly, it is harder for top mesmers to land their shatters, because top mesmers play against top enemies who know how to avoid shatters. So they would have more motivation to stun enemies than someone like me for example.

Embolism.8106:

Silverkey.2078:

I saw somewhere a suggestion to simply remove the trait and instead “your control effects remove an additional stability” which I think made sense.

That actually sounds pretty strong with Diversion. Fits Mesmer better than Revenant anyway IMO.

Exactly! Now the question is: does that mean you stun someone who has only 1 stack of stability, or the trait just does not do anything special in this case?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

The question of counterplay was already address in this thread. To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades. Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades, thieves in particular do this. More’over the following bursts are mitigated with invulns. I do enjoy a good Ranger who waits to use his Lightning Reflects on an MoD stun/interrupt because he not only gets the stun break, the imob cleanse, but also an evade and gap opener. Most players just build tankier though and avoid the danger of a big burst to begin with. Now, before you go wiping all this away with a haphazard “but stability gets stripped”, so what? Stability is still a counter to CC. Stripping is the counter to the counter. That we need counters, and counters to counters means things are working well.

The conclusion here is that CS has plenty of counterplay already, and making it harder to use equates to little more than redesigning it poorly. Oh and another GM that’d be ushered into obscurity with the suggestions you’ve made would be Mental Anguish. It’d no longer compete with Power Block, and sees little enough use as is.

Here is the only good change I’ve seen suggested to CS, and if I remember rightly it was made under the old “bugged” mantras.

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

“To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades.”

Problem is there is no tell for mantra of distraction. Which leads us to the following:

“Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades”

I’m a bit confused as to what you are saying here. Are you trying to say you dodge and after you dodge the enemy uses the stun? If so I don’t see how that quite works. The only counterplay right now to it is predicting it. Which only works if your enemy is a complete idiot and does everything pretty much exactly the same. Having fought a ton of thieves I know what a pain predicting can be. Fortunately most thieves blow there steal when at a distance. Vs a mesmer you don’t have this.

Yes… much gameplay across the classes in GW2 involves prediction. While obviously I’m not going to say something like “spam both dodges, hope for the best”, every time I play PvP I encounter players on every class that are good enough to go deeper into the mind games that come with the gameplay. Maybe you don’t like this. Maybe you’re not there. But it exists and happens every day, and it’s great to be a part of.

Other things that’ve been nerfed since the CS change are the mirror blade bounce, further reducing the might and damage associated with the lockdown burst.

Khyber.1284:

zaxon.6819:

err. my main issue is the meta for mesmer is just stealthing and restealting trying to get a invis shatter on someone. it took a profession that was out in the open skillful and made it = to a thief pushing steal from out of los.

ugg.. my shatter missed.. i better blurr to stall until reveal is over so i can restealth again.. ugg missed that shatter too.. better distortion so i can stealth again..

old days=best days.

Ha! this guy, ok den..

Seems like an accurate assessment to me, I don’t see what’s funny about it.

Clownmug.8357:

Khyber.1284:

zaxon.6819:

err. my main issue is the meta for mesmer is just stealthing and restealting trying to get a invis shatter on someone. it took a profession that was out in the open skillful and made it = to a thief pushing steal from out of los.

ugg.. my shatter missed.. i better blurr to stall until reveal is over so i can restealth again.. ugg missed that shatter too.. better distortion so i can stealth again..

old days=best days.

Ha! this guy, ok den..

Seems like an accurate assessment to me, I don’t see what’s funny about it.

Sue me.

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

The question of counterplay was already address in this thread. To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades. Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades, thieves in particular do this. More’over the following bursts are mitigated with invulns. I do enjoy a good Ranger who waits to use his Lightning Reflects on an MoD stun/interrupt because he not only gets the stun break, the imob cleanse, but also an evade and gap opener. Most players just build tankier though and avoid the danger of a big burst to begin with. Now, before you go wiping all this away with a haphazard “but stability gets stripped”, so what? Stability is still a counter to CC. Stripping is the counter to the counter. That we need counters, and counters to counters means things are working well.

The conclusion here is that CS has plenty of counterplay already, and making it harder to use equates to little more than redesigning it poorly. Oh and another GM that’d be ushered into obscurity with the suggestions you’ve made would be Mental Anguish. It’d no longer compete with Power Block, and sees little enough use as is.

Here is the only good change I’ve seen suggested to CS, and if I remember rightly it was made under the old “bugged” mantras.

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

“To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades.”

Problem is there is no tell for mantra of distraction. Which leads us to the following:

“Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades”

I’m a bit confused as to what you are saying here. Are you trying to say you dodge and after you dodge the enemy uses the stun? If so I don’t see how that quite works. The only counterplay right now to it is predicting it. Which only works if your enemy is a complete idiot and does everything pretty much exactly the same. Having fought a ton of thieves I know what a pain predicting can be. Fortunately most thieves blow there steal when at a distance. Vs a mesmer you don’t have this.

Yes… much gameplay across the classes in GW2 involves prediction. While obviously I’m not going to say something like “spam both dodges, hope for the best”, every time I play PvP I encounter players on every class that are good enough to go deeper into the mind games that come with the gameplay. Maybe you don’t like this. Maybe you’re not there. But it exists and happens every day, and it’s great to be a part of.

Other things that’ve been nerfed since the CS change are the mirror blade bounce, further reducing the might and damage associated with the lockdown burst.

I don’t have a problem with mind games at all. And in fact making it on interrupt would not only increase the skill needed for the guy with CS, the other guy would now be playing the mind game of cancel casting. It’s just now you can at least expect it sometime when your casting a skill. Because my problem is vs CS all the guy with CS has to do is not be a total robot and you kinda can’t do much. Making it on interrupt would now lesson the amount of time you have to guess when it is. And against pretty new players you can avoid CS 99% of the time with cancel casting. Right now it’s just hoping he is really really REALLY obvious. A newer player will just pop his interrupt and thus stun as soon as he can when he sees you using a attack he wants to interrupt if my change would be made.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Mogar.9216:

it’s face roll vs zerker players with low skill level. It’s not really oped at all. I actually started to save my dazes for defense lately rather than using it to land shatter. A decent player knows a shatter is inc once they get mantra stuned and will pop a breaker and dodge so the stun really becomes a tell for your opponents.

You can time the stun with your burst so that they can’t stunbreak it in time 99.999999% of the time unless you have a teleport like blink.

That WAS true before they nerfed mirror blade. You can cast mirrior blade and then stun blink and shatter. But ever since they nerfed mirror blade damage by nearly a 1/3 it’s no longer possiable to shatter burst someone 100-0 anymore. The shatter damage is never instant. You have to cast MB, hit stun, blink and shatter. while blink and shatter are both insta you still need to wait for blink to happen before hit shatter which is enough time to stun break and dodge.

What I don’t like about CS is that “Harmonious Mantra’s” and “Imagined Burden” were both nerfed because of it.

Mostly “Harmonious Mantra’s”..

How was imagined burden nerfed.. and who in the world used that anyway?

hmm. “no longer possible to burst someone from 100-0 anymore.” kappa?

Nerf CS how you like, but no “on-interrupt” on it. It overlaps too much with CI, and it’s just ridiculous to think that having two traits that do essentially the same thing exist on the same profession.

Dondagora.9645:

Nerf CS how you like, but no “on-interrupt” on it. It overlaps too much with CI, and it’s just ridiculous to think that having two traits that do essentially the same thing exist on the same profession.

I very much agree with that. Either adjust CS or just make a new trait with something different.

Eugh CS is such a headache of a balancing issue. It’s ridiculous when paired with MoD and possibly Diversion (although it’s OTT nature is also highly amusing) but it’s a non-issue with other daze sources on Mesmer.

I’d be happy if they just removed the stun and made the trait a +50% daze duration.
I want me an extra half a second on my dazes!

Simonoly.4352:

Eugh CS is such a headache of a balancing issue. It’s ridiculous when paired with MoD and possibly Diversion (although it’s OTT nature is also highly amusing) but it’s a non-issue with other daze sources on Mesmer.

I’d be happy if they just removed the stun and made the trait a +50% daze duration.
I want me an extra half a second on my dazes!

Give me 100% daze, 50% stun, and I’ll consider it.

Oh and some sort of ticking damage while under the effect of a daze/stun just for kicks.

Really though, CS has great synergy with Mental Anguish. Better to leave it as is.

They already nerfed all the synergies this trait needed to be overpowered, and I think that’s enough