Guild Wars 2

It’ll get nerfed eventually, but how hard it will get hit is the better question.

I don’t think this build will be nerfed. Unlike perma-stealth thieves, you can just casually stroll away from a PU condie mesmer and there is jack they can do about it. They rely on you killing yourself.

Its really only a troll build.

Main thing I would like to see is the cast time from scepter #2’s clone increased slightly, giving more time to dodge. Also possibly removing one of the boons that proc when going stealth (either protection or aegis).

I am actually finding the straight Blackwater pretty hard to play in duels of late. Skilled players know how to counter it.

But it might just be my own inexperience.

This is usually what happens with the mesmer. It’s OP until people learn its tricks, then it becomes UP. I’ve never had a problem with PU mesmers or other mesmers in general because their tricks are easy to counter.

Fighting PU mesmers is needlessly boring, so I just rocket boots away and spam /laugh @ cuz they can’t do kitten.

K U T M.4539:

Fighting PU mesmers is needlessly boring, so I just rocket boots away and spam /laugh @ cuz they can’t do kitten.

Ok then…

Ok, while the title says PU mesmer, i think most of us here are talking about the
Blackwater condition build specifically. This build (or any condition clone death builds for that matter), as Pyro pointed out, is based on counterplay, the more aggressive the enemy is, the more effective the build becomes.
Its a strange but nice concept and thus makes the build quite unique. As soon as you understand how it works, the build can be countered.

Well Advent, to be fair, people die easily in WvW. Too fast, one could say.
Ofc this doesn’t affect PU, but in a world where you can die within the blink of an eye, a trait to make you survive that does stand out ofc.

Though you’re right, balance should be done via offering highly synergistic Master traits coupled with very powerful Grandmaster traits and very good QoL Adept traits.

This would lead to the following balance:

• I probably want to pick up one GM trait. They’re hugely powerful.
• I’m tempted to get another one, but OTOH I could get an extra Master trait, and those work best in combination.
• Or, I could try to pick up 10 points in all 5 lines to get things which help me constantly instead of just in certain situations.

Part of that is ofc wishful thinking and cannot realistically be achieved given the number of traits and trait-permutations in GW2. But GM traits need to be more meaningful. They don’t even need to be strong! They could have downsides.
But they need to change an important aspect about the way the character plays or interacts with other characters or enemies.

Simplicity.7208:

If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

lolwat?

There is only one thread regarding Mesmers and it was posted by a Thief of dubious skill level who mistakenly believed that Mesmer’s can stealth more often than Thieves. He has since been corrected.

Don’t exaggerate, it just devalues your own thread.

Is it still 20/20/30/0/0?

I’ve fought a PU mesmer that pops confusion every time a clone dies, so I’m guessing it’s something on the lines of 10/25/30…

Is it worth giving up shorter torch cd and condi removal for confusion?

Incurafy.6329:

lolwat?

There is only one thread regarding Mesmers and it was posted by a Thief of dubious skill level who mistakenly believed that Mesmer’s can stealth more often than Thieves. He has since been corrected.

Don’t exaggerate, it just devalues your own thread.

Because threads never get merged or bumped off the front page. Surely, such a thing has never happened before.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/MESMERS-THEIVES-Stealthier
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Question-about-mesmer-stealth
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Fought-some-mesmers-guardians-last-night

I know there were more but I don’t care to find them right now. Could also have been in other subforums. I know I’ve seen tons of threads about PU mesmers, it just didn’t occur to me until I saw a great deal of them all of the thief forum front page.

Moving on, everyone here seems to think you can just waltz away from a PU mesmer. Yes, you can walk away from a blackwater variant, but blackwater is not the only PU mesmer in existence. Swap out that staff for a sw/p. Suddenly it’s a lot harder to just “up and leave.” And yes, mesmers can have permanent vigor right now with a decent critical hit chance and critical infusion. Note that critical infusion comes free with all clonedeath builds by virtue of taking deceptive evasion.

I’d also like to note that I don’t think phantasm mesmers or less aggressive playstyle counter a well played PU. When it’s mesmer v mesmer, the victor is simply determined by who can set up their phantasms on the real target first. Against a PU mesmer, a phantasm mesmer is at a distinct disadvantage since the PU mesmer can stealth to initiate, ensuring they get their phantasms up on the real target whilst simultaneously disabling the opponent from doing the same. Add in the fact that a phantasm mesmer usually only has null field as their condi cleanse and all those clones act as meat-shields from some of the harder hitting phantasms (looking at you iDuelist) and you’re at an even farther disadvantage. As for less aggressive play style…well, if you don’t kill my illusions, I’ll just do it for you. Spawning an illusion when you have 3 triggers debilitating dissipation. Odds are it’ll hit you.

Thoughts in general: PU mesmers are in a weird place. The PU mesmer has some pretty glaring weaknesses in that they cannot really pursue opponents in WvW, are generally terrible at PvE, and are unviable in tPvP. If one were to just look at that, odds are it won’t get nerfed at all. However, they are extremely easy to play effectively and extremely powerful in duels. Couple that with more sustain than a bunker, more escape than a thief, and enough stealth and clones to confuse even a veteran, and you’ve got a build that is extremely overpowered in one specific aspect. For this reason we may see a nerf. But since guardians have been the be-all & end-all for bunkering since forever, maybe mesmers can be the be-all & end-all of dueling.

I think this build is also extremely anti-warrior/thief. Their reliance on melee makes them easy kills and the warrior meta makes this build seem a lot stronger than it is. Also, it is drastically more effective against terrible players (of which there are a LOT), which makes it seem even better. I kill almost every necromancer I see with this…and necros can pretty easily stomp a mesmer with all those conditions if they know what they’re doing.

Eloquence.5207:

Is it still 20/20/30/0/0?

I’ve fought a PU mesmer that pops confusion every time a clone dies, so I’m guessing it’s something on the lines of 10/25/30…

Is it worth giving up shorter torch cd and condi removal for confusion?

Generally, no. The Blackwater build runs better as an over-all build. Sure, Confusion-on-death is really nice in some situations, but you’re lacking the condition removal and extra vulnerability in other situations. And too often to not mind it.

So in general, go with Blackwater.

Renny.6571:

K U T M.4539:

Fighting PU mesmers is needlessly boring, so I just rocket boots away and spam /laugh @ cuz they can’t do kitten.

Ok then…

You’d be surprised how many PU mesmers join my party and tell me to fight fair.

Then I kill them because they’re in my party and stealth is useless.

Really?

Some of you really don’t believe that having basically 100 percent protection uptime is somehow overpowering in a build on a class who is on the medium hitpoint table?

I hit guardians/warriors for more damage than I do mesmers at times.

My friends son started playing gw2 (he’s 11), he started on a guardian and pretty much only does WvW, he switched to play a mesmer after his guardian was soundly thrashed by one. His exact words after playing for a bit in WvW on his GreatSword wielding level 8 mesmer were ’It’s so easy to get kills with a mesmer than a guardian.’

But yeah, clearly it needs a high skill cap to play one well. Also I have yet to encounter a mesmer who isnt running a PU/hybrid PU build.

I’ve been playing a PU build since December, 2012 before it became as popular as it is today and have only made minor changes to my build since then. I actually play three different variations of it based on what types of fights/enemies I’m running into on the night I’m playing.

The build used to be even stronger (before the damage nerf to confusion in WvW). I’m sure it will get some kind of nerf if people whine enough, so I am just hoping the build is still functional after whatever changes are made.

I am hearimg more an more complaints about mesmers in map chat, so it is probably coming. This is what usually happens when a strong build is shared on the forums and becomes overly popular.

Like others have said, the build is really strongest against bad players who don’t know when to stop moving and/or attacking.

My favorite variation of the build is actually getting buffed in the December 10th patch, so I have that to look forward to at least.

But whoever has played a basic PU build would have to agree it is very powerful for the effort it takes. The real question is should it really be nerfed of should other classes be buffed.

I also play a warrior, guardian, and ranger. The PU build is the strongest at 1 vs 3+ for me, but in 1v1 I find a longbow + sword/shield condi warrior is the strongest of my classes for 1v1 by a wide margin. Should that be nerfed too? Some classes builds are just better at some things and I am ok with that.

phaeris.7604:

Really?

Some of you really don’t believe that having basically 100 percent protection uptime is somehow overpowering in a build on a class who is on the medium hitpoint table?

I hit guardians/warriors for more damage than I do mesmers at times.

My friends son started playing gw2 (he’s 11), he started on a guardian and pretty much only does WvW, he switched to play a mesmer after his guardian was soundly thrashed by one. His exact words after playing for a bit in WvW on his GreatSword wielding level 8 mesmer were ’It’s so easy to get kills with a mesmer than a guardian.’

But yeah, clearly it needs a high skill cap to play one well. Also I have yet to encounter a mesmer who isnt running a PU/hybrid PU build.

Angry thief detected!
You have never encountered a non-PU mesmer? That means:

a) You’re a liar
b) You don’t play much, if at all
c) You think every mesmer who stealths has PU
d) You’re really unlucky. I mean like reaaallly unlucky

Defensive mesmer detected!

Even mesmers in this thread admit to PU being a cheese build, so i’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to get at.

I should have probably written ‘In the last month I have yet to encounter a mesmer…..’

Ahh, you’re Gunnars hold (i’m from deso), that explains why you’re desperate to hold onto cheese builds. You chaps need all the help you can get in WvW.

phaeris.7604:

Defensive mesmer detected!

Even mesmers in this thread admit to PU being a cheese build, so i’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to get at.

I should have probably written ‘In the last month I have yet to encounter a mesmer…..’

Ahh, you’re Gunnars hold (i’m from deso), that explains why you’re desperate to hold onto cheese builds. You chaps need all the help you can get in WvW.

Dat ad hominem.

PU build is kind of a one-trick pony in that it is great 1v1 and small group combat but lousy in zergs. It also requires the opponent to attack the mesmer (and not torment and confusion) to be effective.

The problem with the mesmer class these days is that we don’t have a lot of variation for builds imo. Phantasm is still good, but again 1v1 with really no group support.

After the nerfs, Shatter is not as viable anymore, especially with the condition meta.

The old Glamours build was great for zergs vs zerg but since the nerf, the closest we have now is the ‘Triforce’ build which isn’t stellar.

Mesmer’s do want more variation but again a lot of classes are stuck with 1-2 viable wvw builds.

Regardless, the PU build isn’t OP and can be defeated though.

As an Elementalist convert … I don’t want to hear how tough Thieves have it with Mesmers. I play Mesmer now to give you ba****ds some of your own medicine without having to be you. Go back to your own forum.

phaeris.7604:

Defensive mesmer detected!

Even mesmers in this thread admit to PU being a cheese build, so i’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to get at.

I should have probably written ‘In the last month I have yet to encounter a mesmer…..’

Ahh, you’re Gunnars hold (i’m from deso), that explains why you’re desperate to hold onto cheese builds. You chaps need all the help you can get in WvW.

I don’t play PU, and I already said in this thread that I think PU is too strong. I don’t see how my opinion about PU is relevant though.
I just stated that I don’t believe you. You see, I like facts, not some random nonsense.

People usually don’t make sense when they be mad.

Other players have been explained well how to play against a condi PU build. I’ve readed that in the next patch they are going to reward the duration of the match. That’s seems to take in account combats against bunker builds, PU condi, etc, where you need to be more tactical, patient, and no few hits and run to the next one. For that reason I don’t think they’re going to change PU trait. Also I do not think it’s fair affect all PU builds only for one build that some are bored by fighting it not knowing or not being able to beat it in a few seconds.

In any case, next week we will see…

Simplicity.7208:

Moving on, everyone here seems to think you can just waltz away from a PU mesmer. Yes, you can walk away from a blackwater variant, but blackwater is not the only PU mesmer in existence. Swap out that staff for a sw/p. Suddenly it’s a lot harder to just “up and leave.” And yes, mesmers can have permanent vigor right now with a decent critical hit chance and critical infusion. Note that critical infusion comes free with all clonedeath builds by virtue of taking deceptive evasion.

Sw/P indeed is an option. However, this will delay your departure by 4s at best (2s from Sw#3.2 and Pistol#5). While Pistol#5 can hardly be dodged, Sw#3.2 can. It also does not work on slopes. Additionally, this will most likely change nothing when fighting a condition PU build. He needs you to hit him or the clones or to activate skills to deal damage. Of course, he can smack you with his AA. Scary.

I’m not sure if the death of clones can trigger Vigor. I would guess no but I might be wrong. You should keep in mind, though: The higher the stealth up time, the lower the Vigor up time. If you assume a maximum amount of stealth (which is about 40% if chained perfectly) the Mesmer won’t have a higher Vigor uptime than 60% in the best case scenario. This will also require the Mesmer to constantly hit the target and bring a 40%-50% critical hit chance to be sufficient. Conclusively, you do not get the Vigor for free. It involves a substantial amount of stat investment.

phaeris.7604:

Really?

Some of you really don’t believe that having basically 100 percent protection uptime is somehow overpowering in a build on a class who is on the medium hitpoint table?

I hit guardians/warriors for more damage than I do mesmers at times.

My friends son started playing gw2 (he’s 11), he started on a guardian and pretty much only does WvW, he switched to play a mesmer after his guardian was soundly thrashed by one. His exact words after playing for a bit in WvW on his GreatSword wielding level 8 mesmer were ’It’s so easy to get kills with a mesmer than a guardian.’

But yeah, clearly it needs a high skill cap to play one well. Also I have yet to encounter a mesmer who isnt running a PU/hybrid PU build.

First of all, I do not know your friends son and how skillful he is. However, a level 8 Mesmer is very unlikely to kill anyone solo in WvW just based on the fact that he is upleveled. GS is indeed great for tagging enemies in larger fights. It also offers some nice brust damage through the iZerker. He probably considered the tags as kills. This means that his experience in no way displays the capabilities of the mentioned classes in WvW. Besides, most Guardian builds are in no way an appropriate benchmark for DPS in WvW…

Regarding the Protection up time you are either very unlucky or have a very biased perception of the actual uptime. I’ll assume a BW Build with 30 Chaos and Perplexity Runes. While theoretically Mesmers can achieve a 100% uptime it is statistically very unlikely. Meaning, you should not experience it frequently. Assuming 24s stealth per minute (current maxium) you could theoretically gain 72s of Protection (93.6s with 30% boon duration) which would equal an uptime of 120% (156%) per minute. However, Protection only has a chance of 33% to proc while in stealth. It should proc 8 times on average which will result in 24s Protection (31.2s with 30% boon duration) which would equal an uptime of 40% per minute (52%). Of course, Illusionary Membrane could proc. Let’s say it procs twice for simplicity. This will result in 30s Protection (39s with 30% boon duration) which would equal 50% (65%) uptime per minute.

To sum it up: Theoretically, a BW Mesmer can achieve a 100% uptime. On average he will most likely not exceed an uptime of 50-65%. Thus, talking of a 100% uptime is quite misleading since it in no way takes the likelihood of it happening into account. It is unrealistic to see this rare scenario as norm for PU Mesmers. Additionally, 24s of this uptime will be while stealthed. On average you will see the Mesmer having Protection 6-15s which equals 17-42% of his time out of stealth. While Protection does mitigate damage when stealthed, Protection is more important when not stealthed because this is the time when the Mesmer is most likely to be hit the hardest.

Comparing the damage you deal against a Mesmer with the damage you deal against a Guardian or a Warrior is a bit moot since Mesmers are very bad at recovering from hits. Guardians are balanced around the fact they can heal back up quite quickly. Warriors have a larger health pool and can also bring a high amount of sustain and recovery.

After playing this build and against it, I can honestly say it is too strong for the effort it takes, and is a hard-counter to many classes (if you are stuck in melee, you might as well just run away).

The only change that is actually necessary is fixing the rate of boon application from PU. Getting regen, AEGIS, and prot proccing ever 1s in stealth is unreasonable, especially with all of the tricks mes has to move around in-combat. Even more than thieves, you can’t really tell where a stealth mesmer is.

Take the stealth, AMAZING boons (vigor, prot, regen and AEGIS), add that to a short CD heal, the ability to spam out clones, high toughness, and a skill like desperate decoy and they are nearly unkillable. In small-group they are too strong, worthless in large group, and not useful in pvp b/c stealth doesn’t cap. I’d say they are nearly top-dog roaming in wvw, although certain classes can take them down.

Fighting a PU mesmer is an exercise in futility b/c you have to condi burst them HARD (necro or engie only). They have an easy ability to disrupt any burst that would kill them (power break on mantra of distraction highly recommended), to outlast any long fight, and sufficient cleanse to deal with anything but the hardest condie burst. Add onto that the challenge of fighting the UI every time you identify the right mesmer (the UI makes this the hard part, although some good mesmers will full me with a couple clones now and then), and it is just an exercise in futility.

I really do think the aegis needs to go, or rate of boon application in stealth, as it gives way too much sustain and covers up too much damage when combined with everything.

Just saying… a good condition thief can beat any mesmer… any day. Fight Very Sad Panda. Then you will understand.

MakeitNeil.4561:

Just saying… a good condition thief can beat any mesmer… any day. Fight Very Sad Panda. Then you will understand.

He’s also Triggerless and is probably the best thief in the game, and he even dies to some really good condition mesmers , if that’s what you’re saying it takes to kill a random pu condition mesmer in a pvp duel arena then I think that alone speaks volumes for it in itself. I played with the common pu condi mesmer build (20/20/30 scepter torch / sword pistol with rabid or carrion) and it’s just too easy to play. The amount of effort that you have to put into a fight is ridiculously low compared to the effectiveness that is put out. It’s really stupid and very over powered and it’s based around pure AI while you invis around and do burst setups and apply confusion on them while they try to kill your burst phantasms.

I will also add that this same build wouldn’t do ANYTHING in a tpvp match but as I’m beginning to see it mesmers simply run these pu builds to troll people because they know how overpowered it is in 1on1s anyway so I don’t think most really even care about it’s ineffectiveness in tpvp, it’s perhaps one of the strongest and becoming one of the most common 1on1 builds out there at wvw duel clubs and pvp duel arenas. It really is a matter of time before it’s nerfed, like some have said before, how it’s nerfed is the question.

Mesmers need tpvp builds. The buffs mesmers have received as of late do nothing but glorify phantasm pu passive builds and do nothing for tpvp/team variety.

Just to clarify – This build is basically a solo join 1v1 build.

It is absolute trash in Tpvp or any organized setting.

So why are people complaining about it? Is it that upsetting to loose to it while dueling? The game has been nor will be every balanced for 1v1 play.

Every game from the beginning of mmorpgs to current day have particular classes that are good at 1v1 and some are far better at group or large zerg play.

If the spec was amazing 1v1, in group play and in zerg play then I could understand people wanting it nerfed.

The problem is it is basically a duel spec and nothing more or less.

The spec also has some pretty easy hard counters to it.

My suggestion for those complaining – don’t go to duel servers if you can’t handle loosing to classes/specs built solely for dueling.

Azreell.1568:

Just to clarify – This build is basically a solo join 1v1 build.

It is absolute trash in Tpvp or any organized setting.

So why are people complaining about it? Is it that upsetting to loose to it while dueling? The game has been nor will be every balanced for 1v1 play.

Every game from the beginning of mmorpgs to current day have particular classes that are good at 1v1 and some are far better at group or large zerg play.

If the spec was amazing 1v1, in group play and in zerg play then I could understand people wanting it nerfed.

The problem is it is basically a duel spec and nothing more or less.

The spec also has some pretty easy hard counters to it.

My suggestion for those complaining – don’t go to duel servers if you can’t handle loosing to classes/specs built solely for dueling.

It’s not that they’re built specifically or solely for dueling. The issue is the passive AI component in it and that it takes very little effort to play for the reward given – and it is very good in groups as well as roaming in world vs world (probably better actually) the only area it lacks is tPvP and that’s because necros can dish out conditions better and at a faster rate than a condi mesmer.

The same is said for the spirit build of the ranger or the minion master of the necro. The difference between those very 3 builds is that the pu condi mesmer 20/20/30 build easily takes the least effort to play and can dominate both of those same AI dominant classes due to invis and protection/aegis (and vigor now moreso than any other class besides guardian maybe) uptime. AI passive play is becoming more rewarding than active gameplay and phantasm pu mesmer is the prime example of it. The only reason spirit ranger is regarded as better is because it can perform in tPvP, unlike this condi mesmer build and that’s sitting on a point better.

Let’s not kid ourselves, mesmer has always been overpowered in every area except tPvP (even though back in the day before conditions became a prevalant part of tPvP burst mesmer was used quite frequently and was pretty kitten solid in tPvP which was also why condition counter specs were introduced in the first place, they hard counter bunker guardians and burst mesmers).

Again, the issue isn’t that it’s ‘a duel spec’ , because it’s not just a duel spec but it’s the effort/reward ratio of the build itself. It’s so easy anybody can play and dominate with it. I played it for only a few days and dominated vets of their classes with it.