Guild Wars 2

Fixing the bug.

apharma.3741:

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

It wasn’t commonly taken because we didn’t have access to 3 full traitlines simultaneously, and IP required using 6 or 30 points in Illusions.

People even tried before to run shatter builds without DE in order to go 6 points in Chaos and 6 points in Illusions, because even at +1second with the boons it was very strong and almost worth the sacrifice of DE.

Now it [PU] is pretty much a free choice, no sacrifice needed.

It didn’t need buffing at all.

Curunen.8729:

Now it [PU] is pretty much a free choice, no sacrifice needed.

You mean, besides the loss of the damage from Domination, Dueling or Illusions?

Curunen.8729:

apharma.3741:

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

It wasn’t commonly taken because we didn’t have access to 3 full traitlines simultaneously, and IP required using 6 or 30 points in Illusions.

People even tried before to run shatter builds without DE in order to go 6 points in Chaos and 6 points in Illusions, because even at +1second with the boons it was very strong and almost worth the sacrifice of DE.

Now it [PU] is pretty much a free choice, no sacrifice needed.

It didn’t need buffing at all.

Shatter without IP or DE was completely unviable and not even worth taking Chaos pre patch simply for PU. An investment into Chaos was ONLY verging on worth while when taking the ENTIRE package into account. You got manipulation range or cd, can’t remember which, chaotic dampening, regen at 75% health, protection on regen proc, a bucketload of toughness, AND then PU on top of that (which was only +1 second… come on).

Others were more interested in getting at Chaotic Interruption.

Curunen.8729:

apharma.3741:

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

It wasn’t commonly taken because we didn’t have access to 3 full traitlines simultaneously, and IP required using 6 or 30 points in Illusions.

People even tried before to run shatter builds without DE in order to go 6 points in Chaos and 6 points in Illusions, because even at +1second with the boons it was very strong and almost worth the sacrifice of DE.

Now it [PU] is pretty much a free choice, no sacrifice needed.

It didn’t need buffing at all.

You could run a power shatter build in WvW with DE and the MW modifier as both only required 20 points in duelling and domination. Your other 60 points could pick up PU with the rest of the Domination line as Ross Biddle said for more survivability. This was when you were almost guaranteed to get either protection or aegis, usually both and provided you with enough survivability to comfortably run power shatter as a roamer.

When PU had the extra boons it became completely unviable and no-one would ever make that trade off that wasn’t already going into chaos already.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Curunen.8729:

Now it [PU] is pretty much a free choice, no sacrifice needed.

You mean, besides the loss of the damage from Domination, Dueling or Illusions?

No power build really takes Illusions anymore, no condition build takes Domination. Only Duelling is kind of essential. There’s barely any sacrifice to take Chaos (15% shatter cooldowns, iCelerity and a few other minor things aside).

Ross Biddle.2367:

Shatter without IP or DE was completely unviable and not even worth taking Chaos pre patch simply for PU. An investment into Chaos was ONLY verging on worth while when taking the ENTIRE package into account. You got manipulation range or cd, can’t remember which, chaotic dampening, regen at 75% health, protection on regen proc, a bucketload of toughness, AND then PU on top of that (which was only +1 second… come on).

Others were more interested in getting at Chaotic Interruption.

Exactly, it wasn’t worth it because of the trait point limitations. Now those limitations are gone.

CI is a kitten strong trait now with the merge with BI, but still I’d say more people are taking PU over both it and BD because PU offers much more reward with less effort.

apharma.3741:

Curunen.8729:

apharma.3741:

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

It wasn’t commonly taken because we didn’t have access to 3 full traitlines simultaneously, and IP required using 6 or 30 points in Illusions.

People even tried before to run shatter builds without DE in order to go 6 points in Chaos and 6 points in Illusions, because even at +1second with the boons it was very strong and almost worth the sacrifice of DE.

Now it [PU] is pretty much a free choice, no sacrifice needed.

It didn’t need buffing at all.

You could run a power shatter build in WvW with DE and the MW modifier as both only required 20 points in duelling and domination. Your other 60 points could pick up PU with the rest of the Domination line as Ross Biddle said for more survivability. This was when you were almost guaranteed to get either protection or aegis, usually both and provided you with enough survivability to comfortably run power shatter as a roamer.

When PU had the extra boons it became completely unviable and no-one would ever make that trade off that wasn’t already going into chaos already.

I would agree to make the boons purely defensive – the addition might and swiftness I believe should be reverted, so overall:

1. PU adds +33% to duration of mesmer only stealth skills

2. Change boon pool (not sure about this, just tossing an idea out) to,
- protection, 3s – 20% chance
- regen, 3s – 20% chance
- resistance, 2s – 10% chance
- vigour, 3s – 20% chance
- aegis, 3s – 15% chance
- stability, 3s – 15% chance
(boons proc one per second)

3. Change The Pledge to flat -20% cooldown of torch skills.

4. Change base veil stealth duration to 3 seconds.

5. Change base Mass Invis duration to 6 seconds

With PU,
- prestige becomes 4 seconds
- decoy becomes 4 seconds
- MI becomes 8 seconds
- veil gives 4 seconds running once through. Untraited the field persists for 6 seconds so there’s enough time to run twice through before it ends.

Curunen.8729:

There’s barely any sacrifice to take Chaos (15% shatter cooldowns, iCelerity and a few other minor things aside).

iCelerity is not a small thing in pvp, when your phantasms die quite quickly. Neither is 15% shatter cooldowns.
You’re also missing compounding power, which is 9% on damage with 3 illusions.
And Shattered Strength, which is worth 3 might at least (90 power).
And Master of Frag, which is 10% crit chance on Mind Wrack, which is about +20% damage on Mind Wrack on average (assuming not already capping crit chance).
Those aren’t “minor things”, they are raw dps boosts, and altogether constitute a significant damage loss.

Curunen.8729:

CI is a kitten strong trait now with the merge with BI, but still I’d say more people are taking PU over both it and BD because PU offers much more reward with less effort.

Rather simplistic, the rewards on CI and BD are both incredible. More likely more people are taking PU (assuming that’s true) because it enables a gameplay role that is more valuable, the ability to + 1 fights thief-style. CI and BD are both more oriented to a get in and duke-it-out style of play, but we know mesmers fall off in team fights above a 2v2, meaning success as a mesmer means finding a role that emphasizes smaller fights and/or uneven engagements. The roam/backcap/+1 fight style allows that, and is better suited by stealth. If you take away the stealth, can mesmer still fill that role? And if not, what role does the mesmer fill after that, and will it be enough?

Curunen.8729:

I would agree to make the boons purely defensive – the addition might and swiftness I believe should be reverted, so overall:

1. PU adds +33% to duration of mesmer only stealth skills

2. Change boon pool (not sure about this, just tossing an idea out) to,
- protection, 3s – 25% chance
- regen, 3s – 25% chance
- resistance, 2s – 10% chance
- vigour, 3s – 20% chance
- aegis, 3s – 20% chance
(boons proc one per second)

3. Change The Pledge to flat -20% cooldown of torch skills.

2. Change base veil stealth duration to 3 seconds.

3. Change base Mass Invis duration to 6 seconds

With PU,
- prestige becomes 4 seconds
- decoy becomes 4 seconds
- MI becomes 8 seconds
- veil gives 4 seconds running once through. Untraited the field persists for 6 seconds so there’s enough time to run twice through before it ends.

Veil stealth doesn’t stack with itself, it’s really quite buggy. So you have to let yourself reappear to get another set of stealth from it. Not to mention, it’s not worth much to stealth and then chill out around the field waiting for your stealth to wear out…
.
What’s wrong with MI being 10s? It’s an elite skill on a 90s (irreducible) cooldown and a 1.75s channel that does nothing but apply stealth. Compare that to the equivalent skill of our sister class (thief), Shadow Refuge, which gives 11s of stealth after it ends (so 15s of stealth total), on an instant cast but with a positional requirement. All that on a 60s (reducible) cooldown utility skill that also happens to be a dark field. Traited, it adds another 5s I believe, so up to 20s of stealth. All that on top of the other benefits Thieves get from stealth that we do not.

It’s one thing to say you can’t compare two classes perfectly, but SR is already so much better than MI that I’m not sure why it’s not okay to at least let it be 10s :P

I stand by my opinion that the tradeoff to take Chaos is minor now. With the overall damage boosts from gear/stats/amulets, those traits are no longer as mandatory as previously. MoF is bleh because you’ve got enough precision anyway, compounding power is nice but non essential, iCelerity isn’t essential when you can just wait a tiny bit longer for some skills (and having all the defensive bonuses in Chaos helps). To me they are very minor.

8s with those boons is fine for me – but then it is the boons more than the duration that I believe should be the emphasis of PU.

I don’t care about thief at all and honestly am not comparing – I’m looking at this from the point of view as a mesmer only that PU has been repeatedly buffed (with the only “nerf” being the inclusion of might and swiftness) over the years with no concrete reason or that it was even necessary.

Curunen.8729:

I stand by my opinion that the tradeoff to take Chaos is minor now. With the overall damage boosts from gear/stats/amulets, those traits are no longer as mandatory as previously. MoF is bleh because you’ve got enough precision anyway, compounding power is nice but non essential, iCelerity isn’t essential when you can just wait a tiny bit longer for some skills (and having all the defensive bonuses in Chaos helps). To me they are very minor.

8s with those boons is fine for me – but then it is the boons more than the duration that I believe should be the emphasis of PU.

I don’t care about thief at all and honestly am not comparing – I’m looking at this from the point of view as a mesmer only that PU has been repeatedly buffed (with the only “nerf” being the inclusion of might and swiftness) over the years with no concrete reason or that it was even necessary.

I think you forget pre patch. Just maybe the buff to pu lets us fill the Plus 1 role. We can compete with a thief in pvp. Pre patch we could not so this idea that pu was buffed for no reason is false.

denis.9487:

Curunen.8729:

I stand by my opinion that the tradeoff to take Chaos is minor now. With the overall damage boosts from gear/stats/amulets, those traits are no longer as mandatory as previously. MoF is bleh because you’ve got enough precision anyway, compounding power is nice but non essential, iCelerity isn’t essential when you can just wait a tiny bit longer for some skills (and having all the defensive bonuses in Chaos helps). To me they are very minor.

8s with those boons is fine for me – but then it is the boons more than the duration that I believe should be the emphasis of PU.

I don’t care about thief at all and honestly am not comparing – I’m looking at this from the point of view as a mesmer only that PU has been repeatedly buffed (with the only “nerf” being the inclusion of might and swiftness) over the years with no concrete reason or that it was even necessary.

I think you forget pre patch. Just maybe the buff to pu lets us fill the Plus 1 role. We can compete with a thief in pvp. Pre patch we could not so this idea that pu was buffed for no reason is false.

Well we’ve also got blinds on shatter, free instant F3 and F4, Ineptitude, Power Block (weakness) among other things.

I don’t believe PU is necessary to compete with thieves currently, or even if it was in its previous state it would still be just fine.

apharma.3741:

You know, it’s funny people talk about the burst from stealth. I worked it out in the PvP forums, mug with backstab and executioner will do about the same as a mirror blade mind wrack assuming Mesmer gets the full mind wrack damage bonus.

Interesting thing is that a thief can follow it up with either a 4k auto, 4k shadowshot and then do the backstab again in 5s time. A Mesmer can only follow it up with iZerker and mind stab and then must wait 12s. They could switch and blurred frenzy but I would assume competent players have dodged out of the way by that point, and no, they won’t be downed by it either even running marauder and having light armour.

As for the comment earlier about “you can’t just take one thing from a class and slap it on another”, they’re kinda doing that all across the expansion, wells, physical skills, thief is getting Mesmer type interrupt and just as Mesmer stealth is inferior to thieves so to is theirs slightly inferior to mesmer.

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

wat? are we playing same game?
also, once again completely ignoring the fact that bs is single target with very limited time frame, positional requirement, can be blinded while shatter isn’t/can’t~

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

You know, it’s funny people talk about the burst from stealth. I worked it out in the PvP forums, mug with backstab and executioner will do about the same as a mirror blade mind wrack assuming Mesmer gets the full mind wrack damage bonus.

Interesting thing is that a thief can follow it up with either a 4k auto, 4k shadowshot and then do the backstab again in 5s time. A Mesmer can only follow it up with iZerker and mind stab and then must wait 12s. They could switch and blurred frenzy but I would assume competent players have dodged out of the way by that point, and no, they won’t be downed by it either even running marauder and having light armour.

As for the comment earlier about “you can’t just take one thing from a class and slap it on another”, they’re kinda doing that all across the expansion, wells, physical skills, thief is getting Mesmer type interrupt and just as Mesmer stealth is inferior to thieves so to is theirs slightly inferior to mesmer.

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

wat? are we playing same game?
also, once again completely ignoring the fact that bs is single target with very limited time frame, positional requirement, can be blinded while shatter isn’t/can’t~

While you ignore that a thief can follow up thier burst with higher damage attacks as well as using the burst portion twice as often as mesmers with little cost.

Also yes, shadowshot on crit can hit for 4k even in PvP, was on the receiving end of it and had to double check that one as I couldn’t believe it either. Dunno if the guy was running executioner or not. The full auto chain of dagger will do about 4k with all crits which being at over 70% crit chance is more than likely.

Btw a mesmers burst rapidly becomes harder as the number of players scale as illusions can and frequently do instantly die. You completely ignore this factor in mesmer burst and the positional requirement of being next to the target to get the most out of mirror blade AND mind wrack damage. You also ignore that mirror blade has a 0.75s cast time which shouldn’t catch anyone off guard unless coming from stealth which comes at a much higher cost to the mesmer than thief.

If you spent more time playing a mesmer instead of blurting out vitriol, you might have less problems with them and may even figure out that a thief not only can beat mesmers but has a better chance than the mesmer.

There’s just lots of new players trying out Mesmer now and PU offers new players a very forgivable setup for learning the ropes of a conceptually complex class. Most people that stick with the class will probably “graduate” to dom/duel/insp for power or duel/insp/illus for condi when they realise that good positioning and wise use of base stealth durations are all you need to survive whilst offering far better active cleansing and support for your team.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

And Master of Frag, which is 10% crit chance on Mind Wrack, which is about +20% damage on Mind Wrack on average (assuming not already capping crit chance).

+10% crit chance is roughly +11% damage.

My problem with PU is that a lot of players think you are using PU when they can’t kill you. I think we should educate more around that topic. Mostly it is enough to stand in a Chaos storm and the Flame will Start. Players that rage in that situation always get a mail with a package of salt from me

But standing in a Chaos Storm breaks PU.

Jofu.9637:

not complaining about PU builds but i just hate it that it’s the only way build to go.

It´s human nature, if you can achieve something the easy way you will. Get your ranger buddy who runs “sick em” and take the cancer from them.

I genraly dont give …. about what is meta or not but,
for shater build imho is much better BD instead of PU since it gives you stb and 90% guarantee stomp.

For condi builds yeah, PU might be considerd OP

Also I rly hate vamp. runes there is nothing more frustrating than some rng proc interupting me and not by anything enemy has done but by my own choice.
This is also jsut my own opinion and many might dissagree, but traveler >vamp in any build.

ronpierce.2760:

They do it because damage is absolutely insane, and PU is safe and still highly effective. Same reason everyone runs vamp runes. Any way to cheese a death and burst (or burn) down a guy is basically the current meta.

So basically damage is too high on burst specs and across the board, and hence specs which are defensive enough to mitigate that and punish and counter them are the bad ones.

PvP logic in MMOs baffles me ever since WoW added arenas. “Hey, this balancing model is self-balancing, that’s broken! Fix it!”.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Interesting thing is that a thief can follow it up with either a 4k auto, 4k shadowshot and then do the backstab again in 5s time. A Mesmer can only follow it up with iZerker and mind stab and then must wait 12s. They could switch and blurred frenzy but I would assume competent players have dodged out of the way by that point, and no, they won’t be downed by it either even running marauder and having light armour.

wat? are we playing same game?
also, once again completely ignoring the fact that bs is single target with very limited time frame, positional requirement, can be blinded while shatter isn’t/can’t~

It was late when I wrote my initial response so didn’t have the luxury of doing this:

Shadow shot, vamp runes, DP and marauder amulet.
2225*1.31*952.5/1924 = 1443
Crit 1443*1.81 = 2611.8
With multipliers 2611.8*(1.10*1.11) = 3189

With executioner 2611.8*(1.10*1.11*1.20) = 3826.8

So the 4k crit most likely was using executioner. It’s worth noting I am using an averaged value of weapon damage. The actual damage received can vary up and down. Though I will say 4k is not common and I am off on that one.

Auto chain has a total damage coefficient of 2.82 (0.56×2 + 0.85 +0.85). It’s 4 hits we will average crit out while under fury 0.76*0.81 = 0.616. We assume at 11 initiative too, this is allowing for a shadow shot to target or a heartseeker.

2225*2.82*952.5/1924 = 3106.2
Crit 3106.2*1.616 = 5019.6
With multipliers 5019.6*(1.100*1.110) = 6128.9

That’s of course averaged out, the actual damage can vary quite considerably both up and down due to RNG. Damage would obviously be a lot more with executioner but it is not required to prove how strong a thiefs auto is. Note I am not complaining, only stating.

Without fury our crit multiplier is 0.56*0.81 = 0.454

2225*2.82*952.5/1924 = 3106.2
Crit 3106.2*1.454 = 4516.4
With multipliers 4516.4*(1.100*1.110) = 5514.5

All these auto chain calculations are without executioner too.

Additionally here is my auto on the light golem in HotM which has armour of 2180, significantly higher than the light armour mesmer we’re wrecking in this example. I get it being a 5k auto but what’s a few hundred damage between friends eh?

I have been running my mesmer a lot lately. I really loathe PU and CS so I made a build without either. In most cases (considering it is a condi build) I do fine roaming in WvW. I can 1 v x not to win just to disengage and survive. I think PU is a bit of a crutch now. You really do not need it but, it is too good to pass up in many builds.

Mesmers are OP.
That’s why there are tons of mesmers everywhere (and noone gives a kitten about pve).

Daendur.2357:

Mesmers are OP.
That’s why there are tons of mesmers everywhere (and noone gives a kitten about pve).

True, despite the majority of players spending the majority of time there. Which is a bit at odds with balance being considered by PvP mechanics (limits of 5, etc).

Carighan.6758:

Daendur.2357:

Mesmers are OP.
That’s why there are tons of mesmers everywhere (and noone gives a kitten about pve).

True, despite the majority of players spending the majority of time there. Which is a bit at odds with balance being considered by PvP mechanics (limits of 5, etc).

what’s the point of pve balance ? Mobs can’t come here to complain about a profession or another. wtf, be serious plz

Daendur.2357:

Carighan.6758:

Daendur.2357:

Mesmers are OP.
That’s why there are tons of mesmers everywhere (and noone gives a kitten about pve).

True, despite the majority of players spending the majority of time there. Which is a bit at odds with balance being considered by PvP mechanics (limits of 5, etc).

what’s the point of pve balance ? Mobs can’t come here to complain about a profession or another. wtf, be serious plz

Imagine if they could complain though.

Mordrem nerf wishlist:
Condi guard, engy and ele.
Thieves (coz i r 2 dum + stelf)
Ele.
PS warrior.
Guardians.
Engineers.

Mordrem fine list:
Necro – they tickle.
Ranger – tickle at range.
Mesmer – my auto target puts me ALWAYS on the real one and those phantasms die instantly.

Daendur.2357:

what’s the point of pve balance ? Mobs can’t come here to complain about a profession or another. wtf, be serious plz

Balance between classes? Classes being of equal importance to parties and of equal viability in content?

Always thought that balancing was about risk vs reward, and not being able to attack with impunity. Clearly anet definition of ‘balancing’ is not the same as mine.
They made the same ‘mistake’ (if you want to call it that) with thief when the game first came out and it was so op that there was pages an pages of complaints about it (only took roughly two years to sort that out), with a vociferous minority supporting it (didn’t want their win button removed).

Half the problem is with stealth, anet refuses to acknowledge that excessive amounts of stealth is a problem, and instead is (in my opinion) using it as a somewhat selling point (what has this game got that others don’t have). The old spin of ‘well use AOE to counter stealth is an old one, and didn’t hold water when the game came out, and still doesn’t.

The problem I have seen is, with some of the balancing, its either, lets make xxxx class OP to shut up the players, or down the line lets nerf xxxx class to the point of uselessness to shut up the complainers, instead of actually balancing!

denis.9487:

Noss.4105:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Noss.4105:

Mesmer’s stealth shouldn’t be compared to thief. Thieves are probably the squishiest things in the game when you get one pinned down, and they have to be in melee range range to do any meaningful damage. Stealth and evades are really the only thing keeping them breathing.
I hate thieves as much as the next mesmer, but I can still look at things in neutral perspective.

I think PU is overpowered, but my feelings against it aren’t as strong as most people’s. The real beef I have with the trait is that the change to it was cheap, and doesn’t encourage more skillful or interesting play.

Thieves have an incomparable ability to kite/dance around an engagement, biding their time to choose when to strike, able to wear a target down (or catch one warn down), because they have so much front loaded instant damage- having to “get into melee” is irrelevant. So yes, perspective is everything.

I know I’m truly in danger when I cross paths with a patient thief.

Mesmers have quite a bit of instant damage aswell.

if by instant you meant weapon skills tied to illusions that must survive in order to cause damage then sure. Our personal dps is in the gutter. Hence the crying over pu since it lets you stealth burst taking a target by surprise. The same principals apply to a thief need to always assume someone is watching waiting to get you.

You are literally talking about three trait lines that have never gone together and will never go together as long as the design of those trait lines remains. You’re talking about a build which would have been so laughably bad it would have and should have lost to most mesmer builds before the update.

deda.8302:

I genraly dont give …. about what is meta or not but,
for shater build imho is much better BD instead of PU since it gives you stb and 90% guarantee stomp.

For condi builds yeah, PU might be considerd OP

Also I rly hate vamp. runes there is nothing more frustrating than some rng proc interupting me and not by anything enemy has done but by my own choice.
This is also jsut my own opinion and many might dissagree, but traveler >vamp in any build.

This is my biggest issue with PU. I can’t reliably kill the mesmer when it’s stealthed or coming out of stealth, because a random aegis or protection can ruin any planned ideas The stealth duration is not a complaint of mine more than the boon gain making it very difficult to reliably counterplay. You can do this against a thief, because its in-stealth effects are not RNG.

As far as Shadow Shot goes, its damage coefficients are way too high. I play D/D and have zero respect for D/P players because spamming this skill is mathematically more efficient than even usingBP→HS backstab. I was challenged on this recently by a friend of mine playing D/P. In fights in D/D against him, it was relatively even. As soon as I put on D/P and started abusing Shadow Shot’s damage and blind for its extremely low initiative cost, I won every single fight without taking one hit… playing DA/CS/Trick Signets (for non-thieves here, that means a build with no stealth and no stealth benefits).

As far as claims of rogue specs wanting an easy “I win” button spec and vehemently defending being “overpowered,” most players which complain about the thief being OP or easy mode and then try the thief playing anything but D/P meta reluctantly admit that the class is way more difficult to play than their initial complaints. Scrub D/P meta/Shadow Shot of course is easy mode, and unfortunately is the only thing really holding the class in sPvP at the moment in regards to +1’ing potential.

I agree that sudden aegis can be unpleasent but its not game breaking.

Pu is every where because ppl dont think and use what is " considered meta" and user friendly .
I had match recently with one of “meta users” where he got rect in 3 sec by condi mesmers and yelling in map chat for condi nerf,when i pointed out that he just needs to take some condi clear he said, “but its not in meta build”!

On thief i dont see a reason for SS nerf its not an op skill,nerf SS and d/p and you can as well scrap Thief class from GW2.
Btw theif by design is , and will be the class that spams.

And this may be of topic but main reason for all this balance cries and nerf is that trait lines are not soldified (and more after this new spec with 3 trait lines with no stats)
in to giving only offensive-defensive -support traits.

This is main reason why d/d ele is op cause one trait line gives you defensive traits and offensive traits,
and master-grand master differentatiation lost its value since now u get whole trait line…

This is not case with thief since SA and acrbatics give solely defensive traits and this is one of the reasosn why thief is so uderwhelming compared with other classes.