Chorazin
[lion]~ riperonis
[tRex]
[lion]~ riperonis
[tRex]
Pu mesmers in WvW need a change
1 2
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the conditions I apply, so they have no time to focus on dealing damage to me, even if they manage to deal some damage, my ether feast heals over half of my hp anyways, so they basically deal no dmg to me. Also I’m constantly kiting with staff 2 etc, if you try to catch me [I can apply alot of torment], if you try to attack [I apply alot of confusion]. Therefore I’m constantly punishing players for attacking or even moving…. How in the world can that be fair???? I stacked up to 15 stacks of confusion at one time that the enemy deals around 1.5k dmg to himself per melee attack………. Oh you want to heal yourself? NOPE! I run doom on each weapon set, good luck healing…. Pu mesmer can spam stealth, and punishes players for doing anything. In a 1v1 situation, I can never lose.). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me (Just try fighting me with condi build you will understand how every condition that you apply to me gets removed almost instantly) and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
PS. TO ANYONE OF YOU CLAIMING THAT PU CONDI MESMERS ARE NOT OP ETC. FIGHT ME!!! I will beat everyone of you. PU condi is so faceroll i wont even have to try.
This whole mentality and play style is why people hate condi mesmers, this is why it only really works i wvw where you have virtually endless space to kitten around.
But i could beat you easily on any class. Because in wvw, you beat condi mesmers by simply walking away (while smiling at the screen for having robbed that idiot of his daily dose of egotrip).
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the conditions I apply, so they have no time to focus on dealing damage to me, even if they manage to deal some damage, my ether feast heals over half of my hp anyways, so they basically deal no dmg to me. Also I’m constantly kiting with staff 2 etc, if you try to catch me [I can apply alot of torment], if you try to attack [I apply alot of confusion]. Therefore I’m constantly punishing players for attacking or even moving…. How in the world can that be fair???? I stacked up to 15 stacks of confusion at one time that the enemy deals around 1.5k dmg to himself per melee attack………. Oh you want to heal yourself? NOPE! I run doom on each weapon set, good luck healing…. Pu mesmer can spam stealth, and punishes players for doing anything. In a 1v1 situation, I can never lose.). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me (Just try fighting me with condi build you will understand how every condition that you apply to me gets removed almost instantly) and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
PS. TO ANYONE OF YOU CLAIMING THAT PU CONDI MESMERS ARE NOT OP ETC. FIGHT ME!!! I will beat everyone of you. PU condi is so faceroll i wont even have to try.
Condi necro wrecks PU condition Mesmer so there goes everything you said. Yes, I have done that on occaisons where some troll mesmer thinks he’s unstoppable, let him stack the torment and confusion, send it back, /laugh.
I can’t beat you as a thief but you sure as hell won’t kill me with your slow mesmer and obvious attacks. How does that fit into the whole 1v1 me brah?
Oh and just as an added thing. My server makes it a habit to corpse jump, spam laugh and throw ballista on condi mesmers which we generally get 2+ people to kill. We get more than one because while most of us won’t lose we won’t win either so we get a few people, scout out, gank, make them rage, repeat till they stop.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Problem is not mesmer problem is dire gear
I don’t play thief but I read another thread compare trap thief Vs PU Mesmer. I also read how thief lose because of stealth disruptor traps in WvW.
I wonder if ANet add more counter stealth measures in the game, will people take it or rather than hold onto their builds?
I don’t play thief but I read another thread compare trap thief Vs PU Mesmer. I also read how thief lose because of stealth disruptor traps in WvW.
I wonder if ANet add more counter stealth measures in the game, will people take it or rather than hold onto their builds?
To be honest with the current changes I’ve heard about in WvW beta we’re looking at the death of hiding in keeps whether you’re a Mesmer or a thief and that’s where the complaints lie.
I think that a lot of classes are going to have the option of anti stealth mechanics, whether they run them is another thing but I doubt stealth disrupters will get any more prevalent as people won’t use them even now against stealth.
I just generally don’t get the hate on mesmers though. A thief can stealth and dog you all across a borderland map until you get to allies and even then if they want can sit there and follow you waiting. A Mesmer can’t without traveler runes and even then most classes have better swiftness and movement skills.
Maybe when people realise you don’t have to kill every enemy you meet we might see problems go away. I don’t bother with condi mesmers as I just can’t be bothered wasting my time. If they attack I’ll interrupt mirrorimages and counter burst, usually makes them back off and I go back to what I was doing.
Anet doesn’t balance around WvW roaming, sorry.
This. Why would they take it into consideration anyway? If WvW roaming is what you enjoy knock yourselves out, but in the end the devs aren’t going to balance around a style that wasn’t really a focus of WvW, let alone the game as a whole.
If you’re roaming you are playing it wrong no nerf to mesmer before GWEN meta gets
To be honest, condirupt Mesmer with Chaotic Interruption and You-Know-Which runes are way worse. You don’t even need PU, The Pledge + Torch + Decoy is more than enough.
Anet hates [your class], since [other classes] got buffs while [your class] only received nerfs.
IKR………. I fought this ranger that took every possible condi removing trait and utility and sigils and rune etc. He said he will beat me easy, but he lost every time :P. Fighting that ranger took a long time due to condi removal, but his skills has cooldown but my condition applying skills has such low cool down that soon enough I apply too much condition for him to remove.
These examples all assume that your opponent will be foolish enough to stand and fight in a prolonged, losing battle. As people have said over and over again, walk away. It’s WvW, you don’t need to worry about holding a point, just leave. Outrunning a Condi mesmer is just not that hard.
Every build shouldn’t be capable of stomping every other build, I don’t know why people think that they should. So you can’t win a 1v1 with a Condi mesmer; walk away, do something else, or come back with friends. Job done.
So I’m supposed to leave the mesmer alone inside smc or a keep? No, I can’t. It mean I have to bring lots of ppl to flush him out and take quite some time to do it if the mesmer is even not half bad.
Like said previously, if it was merely in roaming it wouldn’t be THAT bad. I mean it really sux to see so many mesmers in wvw making roaming a living hell but to have them be a nightmare each time you flip an objective is extremely annoying and impactful on the game.
Lastly, I agree that not every build should be able to take on every other build…but that is pretty much what the problem of the mesmer in wvw is right now… they can do exactly what you say none should.
So I’m supposed to leave the mesmer alone inside smc or a keep?
No, I can’t. It mean I have to bring lots of ppl to flush him out and take quite some time to do it if the mesmer is even not half bad.
You completely ignored where I said that staying in keeps is gonna mark you on the minimap. That’s going to make it extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, for mesmers to stay in a keep long enough to retake it.
So this is going to be a non-issue, which means nerfing mesmer stealth for this reason is meaningless.
Lastly, I agree that not every build should be able to take on every other build…but that is pretty much what the problem of the mesmer in wvw is right now… they can do exactly what you say none should.
He wasn’t saying a “should”, you were. He was suggesting that it’s not important that any particular build be beatable in 1v1 WvW roaming.
For example, every MOBA has a few characters who are supreme duelists. Trying to fight a duelist alone in League of Legends is probably going to get you killed. This isn’t considered a bad thing, it’s considered a feature of that class over others. The principle that a dire or rabid condi mesmer can beat any other class 1v1 isn’t inherently bad, only if its effects are. But the effect of condi mes being unbeatable (if this were even actually true) is that you need to bring a friend when roaming WvW (which seems to have been Anet’s intention in the first place), and that your camps aren’t always safe when the zerg is far away. Since that’s extremely low-impact in terms of WvW objectives, it’s not important that Anet deal with it anytime soon.
So I’m supposed to leave the mesmer alone inside smc or a keep?
No, I can’t. It mean I have to bring lots of ppl to flush him out and take quite some time to do it if the mesmer is even not half bad.
You completely ignored where I said that staying in keeps is gonna mark you on the minimap. That’s going to make it extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, for mesmers to stay in a keep long enough to retake it.
So this is going to be a non-issue, which means nerfing mesmer stealth for this reason is meaningless.Lastly, I agree that not every build should be able to take on every other build…but that is pretty much what the problem of the mesmer in wvw is right now… they can do exactly what you say none should.
He wasn’t saying a “should”, you were. He was suggesting that it’s not important that any particular build be beatable in 1v1 WvW roaming.
For example, every MOBA has a few characters who are supreme duelists. Trying to fight a duelist alone in League of Legends is probably going to get you killed. This isn’t considered a bad thing, it’s considered a feature of that class over others. The principle that a dire or rabid condi mesmer can beat any other class 1v1 isn’t inherently bad, only if its effects are. But the effect of condi mes being unbeatable (if this were even actually true) is that you need to bring a friend when roaming WvW (which seems to have been Anet’s intention in the first place), and that your camps aren’t always safe when the zerg is far away. Since that’s extremely low-impact in terms of WvW objectives, it’s not important that Anet deal with it anytime soon.
Had I responded first, I would have written this, but not nearly so eloquently. Cheers, Alpha.
You can melt people in seconds and they allow to face outnumbered fights, which requires tons of skill and are more stressful than duels with a power burst build.
PU + the pledge + passive dmg + high toughness ( and vitaly when using dire) must be so stressful to play.
As stressfull as condi trap thief.He’s talking about outnumbered fights specifically.
Give it a try, it doesn’t matter how long your stealth period is, when you’re outnumbered and you’ve only got 3 stealth skills on your bar, you will run out.
Maybe it’s not fair that pu condi can win a 2v1 in WvW roaming, but it’s been said before: WvW solo roaming pretty much requires being able to win 2v1 by definition.
The moment they try to balance it is the moment solo roaming stops being a thing entirely.
You’ll still get wrecked when you try to wander the Borderlands alone, it just won’t be a solo mesmer/thief/ele that kills you.
What you’re saying is “don’t try to balance an overpowered build, because roaming requires an overpowered build so don’t bother balancing it.” Listen, we all have our favorite toys and don’t like them taken away regardless of the effect on others. But what are the other classes supposed to do. Roll a mesmer? I joined 3 mesmers while on my trapper ranger and we just destroyed stuff. I felt like I needed to take a shower afterwards.
Guess what? You have no right to be able to win 1 v. 2 or 1 v. 3. unless they are in PVT gear on the way to the zerg unless you are far more skilled then the other like a really good glass thief (which is rare but there are some).
I understand that they don’t balance for 1v1 roaming, but why encourage overpowered FOTM builds? There are so many more mesmers now both in WvW solo and small group stuff, and then there’s the mesmer/thief combo.
Stealth isn’t much use in PvE and you can’t cap a point with it in pvp, so I have no idea why they buffed PU? Anyway, that and/or Pledge is going to get nerfed at some point.
Tarnished Coast
(edited by Samis.1750)
So I’m supposed to leave the mesmer alone inside smc or a keep?
No, I can’t. It mean I have to bring lots of ppl to flush him out and take quite some time to do it if the mesmer is even not half bad.
You completely ignored where I said that staying in keeps is gonna mark you on the minimap. That’s going to make it extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, for mesmers to stay in a keep long enough to retake it.
So this is going to be a non-issue, which means nerfing mesmer stealth for this reason is meaningless.Lastly, I agree that not every build should be able to take on every other build…but that is pretty much what the problem of the mesmer in wvw is right now… they can do exactly what you say none should.
He wasn’t saying a “should”, you were. He was suggesting that it’s not important that any particular build be beatable in 1v1 WvW roaming.
For example, every MOBA has a few characters who are supreme duelists. Trying to fight a duelist alone in League of Legends is probably going to get you killed. This isn’t considered a bad thing, it’s considered a feature of that class over others. The principle that a dire or rabid condi mesmer can beat any other class 1v1 isn’t inherently bad, only if its effects are. But the effect of condi mes being unbeatable (if this were even actually true) is that you need to bring a friend when roaming WvW (which seems to have been Anet’s intention in the first place), and that your camps aren’t always safe when the zerg is far away. Since that’s extremely low-impact in terms of WvW objectives, it’s not important that Anet deal with it anytime soon.
For your first point I’ll simply say that I witness on a daily basis from our side and our enemy’s side what you say is near impossible. It simply not THAT hard for a mesmer to endure long enough to bring a zerg inside a keep unless you deploy what needs to be deployed.
As for your second point, I NEVER said or implied that any build are undefeatable. I said mesmer has access to builds that can defeat all others in wvw atm. Having the ability to 1vx is, IMO, inherently bad in a pvp setting. Being strong is fine but there is a line that I’m sure was crossed with the update that put the mesmer in WvW on the “too strong” side of it. I see it every day, I play it and i fight it, it IS too good atm in that setting. It is no wonder there is a plague of it now. The same is true of cele D/D ele in pvp.
As for PU, I still scratch my head trying to understand why they felt an already very powerful and viable trait was in need of such a massive buff… Specially knowing the problem stealth represent in at least one of the game mode.
What you’re saying is “don’t try to balance an overpowered build, because roaming requires an overpowered build so don’t bother balancing it.”
No, I saying what I believe Anet would say: “if you run in groups like you’re supposed to, you won’t have a problem.
Meanwhile, we gave mesmers more stealth because we took away some of their other defensive options. It’s important in PvP, it’s not OP in pvp, and it doesn’t improve their ability to affect WvW outside tower capping, which we’re dealing with in another way. Maybe we’ll get to it someday, when all our important priorities are dealt with.”
Listen, we all have our favorite toys and don’t like them taken away regardless of the effect on others. But what are the other classes supposed to do. Roll a mesmer?
:rolleyes:
Or don’t try to roam WvW alone.
I joined 3 mesmers while on my trapper ranger and we just destroyed stuff. I felt like I needed to take a shower afterwards.
My experience roaming WvW with groups is that we destroy stuff whether I’m on a mesmer or not. Indeed, there’s plenty of evidence that PU mesmers scale up poorly enough with group size that I’d not be surprised if the group you just described would itself get wrecked by a more balanced group of the same size.
Guess what? You have no right to be able to win 1 v. 2 or 1 v. 3. unless they are in PVT gear on the way to the zerg unless you are far more skilled then the other like a really good glass thief (which is rare but there are some).
1. Right’s not nothing to do with it. PU is filling an important defensive role in sPvP, and nerfing it for an unsupported situation (running around WvW alone) is bad. If they nerf PU and replace the defensive functionality sufficiently, it won’t be a problem, but that’s a more involved solution than we can tend to expect.
2. Any class with enough stealth can win 1v2 or 1v3 because all it requires is separating your opponents, stringing them out, and killing them separately. That doesn’t mean you can walk into the face of any 2 people of reasonable skill and expect to take them out. Messing with noobs is fun, but once people catch on that decent cleanse is all you need, and power stealth mesmers are so glassy all you need to do is stick together, even the noobs will make life hard for roaming mesmers.
I understand that they don’t balance for 1v1 roaming, but why encourage overpowered FOTM builds? There are so many more mesmers now both in WvW solo and small group stuff, and then there’s the mesmer/thief combo.
Because the trait wasn’t built for WvW roaming, an unsupported game mode they barely even register, but for sPvP, a game mode they are so focused on that they’ve given mesmers the shaft in 80% of game content (read: pve) in order to keep them balanced there!
It’s not about “encouraging overpowered FOTM builds”, it’s about ignoring gameplay that’s not supported (WvW roaming) until it starts to meaningfully impact game modes that are (large scale wvw, group WvW, sPvP, PvE)!
Stealth isn’t much use in PvE
Untrue, there’s a reason thieves are part of the meta, and it’s not because of their dps.
and you can’t cap a point with it in pvp, so I have no idea why they buffed PU?
Since you noticed my post, I’m surprised you didn’t notice the multiple times this has been answered here.
PU was buffed because they took away clone death traits, which were previously a key defensive option for mesmers. They removed those traits presumably because they intended to buff mesmers offensively (which they did), but intended killing illusions to become a relevant counterplay to mesmers (which clone death traits inhibited). So instead they amplified mesmer stealth, likely reasoning that it’s been okay for thieves so far, so including another class in that niche won’t be so bad.
And they were right, PU has become a key defensive option for mesmers in pvp. It’s OP in wvw roaming because of the ability to chain them together for very long stealth times, but such long stealth isn’t relevant in pvp because of the capping issues you mentioned. It is relevant, however, in the stealth it gives each individual skill. 3s on The Prestige and decoy are fine for many uses, but defensively PU makes a significant difference. Chaining The Prestige and Decoy in spvp is actually not terribly useful, as then you start to get into “I’ve been invisible too long” territory. But getting 6s now and 6s later when you need it does make a difference, defensively.
Pledge is going to get nerfed at some point.
Considering The Pledge is bugged, I certainly agree that it will.
And considering the whole effect of The Pledge is to encourage unhealthy stealth camping, I also agree that it should. I suspect that this would resolve most of the WvW issues without harming sPvP in the slightest, in fact.
Just curious about people claiming they’re seeing these mesmers all the time in WvW, whigh servers are these? I’m mid silver EU and while I do see them, we see more SD, DP thieves, trapper thieves, rangers and power shatter mesmers. Sure we occasionally see PU condi roamers but generally they get ganked, corpse jumped and laugh spammed hard. They’re certainly not that prevalent.
Doesn’t even need more than 2 of you to blow them up. Caught one sitting there in the block animation on sceptre and we both had enough time to do the laugh emote. Then we murdered him for having the audacity to think he would stand a chance on that build. Dodge the mirror images and he was powerless as we killed all the clones. Literally he couldn’t do a thing except try to run.
(edited by apharma.3741)
As for PU, I still scratch my head trying to understand why they felt an already very powerful and viable trait was in need of such a massive buff… Specially knowing the problem stealth represent in at least one of the game mode.
That’s complete and utter bullkitten and you know it. It was viable in precisely one build in the entirety of the game and only because you were going into that line for all the other great condition boosting traits.
You used to be able to pick up PU with power builds for roaming in WvW but when they nerfed the boons to have might and swiftness it became non viable as the defence was unreliable and there was nothing else useful in that line.
It’s at that point where IP became the better choice as 1s invuln on a 42s cool down as well kittenter recharge at 50% health were just far better.
Oh and before you jump on the “he 2v1 people train” it’s a highlight vid. I’ve played on the same server as him in the past he died a lot too. The people, especially the staff 1 spamming guard were simply outplayed.
Just curious about people claiming they’re seeing these mesmers all the time in WvW. I’m mid silver EU and while I do see them, we see more SD, DP thieves, trapper thieves, rangers and power shatter mesmers. Sure we occasionally see PU condi roamers but generally they get ganked, corpse jumped and laugh spammed hard. They’re certainly not that prevalent.
Doesn’t even need more than 2 of you to blow them up. Caught one sitting there in the block animation on sceptre and we both had enough time to do the laugh emote. Then we murdered him for having the audacity to think he would stand a chance on that build. Dodge the mirror images and he was powerless as we killed all the clones. Literally he couldn’t do a thing except try to run.
I won’t enter into a possibly endless argument with you about that however can we agree then might have been a tad too far with the stealth boost? Couldn’t it have been something else they gave the mesmer instead of so much stealth? It was a very poor choice IMHO to amplify something already not too great in that game.
I won’t enter into a possibly endless argument with you about that however can we agree then might have been a tad too far with the stealth boost? Couldn’t it have been something else they gave the mesmer instead of so much stealth? It was a very poor choice IMHO to amplify something already not too great in that game.
As long as they’re not willing to take away Thieves permastealth, increasing Mesmer stealth to not-perma is never going to unbalance anything more than it already is.
Just curious about people claiming they’re seeing these mesmers all the time in WvW. I’m mid silver EU and while I do see them, we see more SD, DP thieves, trapper thieves, rangers and power shatter mesmers. Sure we occasionally see PU condi roamers but generally they get ganked, corpse jumped and laugh spammed hard. They’re certainly not that prevalent.
Doesn’t even need more than 2 of you to blow them up. Caught one sitting there in the block animation on sceptre and we both had enough time to do the laugh emote. Then we murdered him for having the audacity to think he would stand a chance on that build. Dodge the mirror images and he was powerless as we killed all the clones. Literally he couldn’t do a thing except try to run.
You say you are curious but never say about what? How can I help you? I play on SoR and am currently facing BP and SF… TONS of mesmers. We do have our fair share ourselves. IDK what to say but to me, as well as many people apparently, there is unarguably a very significant increase in the profession visibility on the field no matter the server we have faced.
I do not see PU “occasionally”. It’s, apparently, near mandatory now. Almost a bad running gag actually. People seem to be soooooooo afraid to roam without their stealth it’s ridiculous. I assume my kamikaze roaming style with my zerk staff ele but if I always felt alien before while roaming alone now the feeling is overwhelming when invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
I won’t enter into a possibly endless argument with you about that however can we agree then might have been a tad too far with the stealth boost? Couldn’t it have been something else they gave the mesmer instead of so much stealth? It was a very poor choice IMHO to amplify something already not too great in that game.
As long as they’re not willing to take away Thieves permastealth, increasing Mesmer stealth to not-perma is never going to unbalance anything more than it already is.
Thieves perma stealth was always kitten to this game. Perma stealth should never be possible alone period.
…invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Now see, this complaint has no meaning.
How often do you not bail in front of packs of anything? Grouping up is kind of the name of the game, yah?
Also, mesmers by their very nature (worse for condi mes) are at a disadvantage in more than a 3v3. If anything, grouping up into multi-mesmer groups is making this less of a problem, as a group of 4+ ele/guard/warr would be more effective anyway.
…invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Now see, this complaint has no meaning.
How often do you not bail in front of packs of anything? Grouping up is kind of the name of the game, yah?Also, mesmers by their very nature (worse for condi mes) are at a disadvantage in more than a 3v3. If anything, grouping up into multi-mesmer groups is making this less of a problem, as a group of 4+ ele/guard/warr would be more effective anyway.
You are supposed to get the idea there are lots of them (mesmers) now and understand that as hard as it was to solo roam with what I like to it’s much worse now. The solo roaming rant is not mesmer oriented btw…
…invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Now see, this complaint has no meaning.
How often do you not bail in front of packs of anything? Grouping up is kind of the name of the game, yah?Also, mesmers by their very nature (worse for condi mes) are at a disadvantage in more than a 3v3. If anything, grouping up into multi-mesmer groups is making this less of a problem, as a group of 4+ ele/guard/warr would be more effective anyway.
You are supposed to get the idea there are lots of them (mesmers) now and understand that as hard as it was to solo roam with what I like to it’s much worse now. The solo roaming rant is not mesmer oriented btw…
So you’re solo roaming on a zerker staff ele and complaining that you’re getting killed by packs of enemy players? Are you actually serious right now? Zerker staff ele gets massacred 1v1 vs anything competent, let alone most roaming builds, let alone actual groups…
You say you are curious but never say about what? How can I help you? I play on SoR and am currently facing BP and SF… TONS of mesmers. We do have our fair share ourselves. IDK what to say but to me, as well as many people apparently, there is unarguably a very significant increase in the profession visibility on the field no matter the server we have faced.
I do not see PU “occasionally”. It’s, apparently, near mandatory now. Almost a bad running gag actually. People seem to be soooooooo afraid to roam without their stealth it’s ridiculous. I assume my kamikaze roaming style with my zerk staff ele but if I always felt alien before while roaming alone now the feeling is overwhelming when invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Yeah I’m ill at the moment so that slipped by, will edit it in.
For me I see PU on mesmers generally because of thieves. As I’ve said many times, Mesmer has very poor swiftness so escaping a thief without stealth won’t happen and 3-4s won’t cut it. You can’t outrun the things and you couldn’t out stealth them either. Roaming as a power Mesmer pre patch was painful. It was possible but you could be easily killed by the many, many thieves out there and they didn’t even need to be skilled to do it.
That’s without mentioning the necessity of being able to escape from a zerg or a bunch of people from the other server coming to outnumber you. Again, without traveler runes there is no way I’m escaping without stealth of a decent duration.
You can’t say mesmer stealth is too much without also saying thief stealth is too much but that’s been there for 3 years solid. Additionally it would be incredibly hard to change it. Please do try roaming as a mesmer without PU and see how “easy” it is without support.
I guess the increase in PU condition mesmer is an NA or upper EU thing as I don’t see it often in any of the servers we fight, but then as I said, those players tend to have a very bad time with the corpse jumping and laughing. Finally, you really need to put down the zerk staff ele, we’ve been over this in the last nerf PU thread, it just isn’t viable atm, seen zerk or close to zerk DD ele with lightening rod be effective though.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
This is simply not true.
I am mostly a WvWvW, playing on Desolation, EU rank 1 server. Roaming matters to score at least as much as blobbing does. You can deny enemy its supplies by sniping the dolyaks, upgrade camps (effectively draining them to close to zero supplies before larger enemy group flips them back), place supply traps, contest enemy keeps or even try to capture them on your own. I play like that pretty much every day and several people on my server have called me “MVP” = Most Valuable Player on the map.
Several times I have been on map where I solo flipped every tower and camp which our side owns. You do the flipping 2-3 minutes before the tick and you hold it for the tick.
You can also flip a keep with just 2 players.
And this has happened during busy prime time where there can be roughly up to 70-80 enemy players on each enemy side (a total of 140-160 enemies on the same map). Our side might have a zerg of their own, but they are doing gvg or having open field fights. Nevertheless it is roaming guys who matter the most when it comes to score.
Back to topic:
PU mesmers need a change. They have too much survivability and escapes compared to the amount of dps they can dish out. Either take shave off DPS or the reduce amount of stealth and increase the cooldown of blink.
I have often been roaming for 1 h and encounter almost solely just enemy mesmers. If almost the entire roaming player population is using just one profession, it tells that the balance is a bad joke and Arenanet should do something about it.
Playing PU mesmer doesn’t require much any skill. It is a very forgiving build, which can easily handle 2-4 enemy players alone, unless they are built to take down mesmers.
Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]
(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
This is simply not true.
I am mostly a WvWvW, playing on Desolation, EU rank 1 server. Roaming matters to score at least as much as blobbing does. You can deny enemy its supplies by sniping the dolyaks, upgrade camps (effectively draining them to close to zero supplies before larger enemy group flips them back), place supply traps, contest enemy keeps or even try to capture them on your own. I play like that pretty much every day and several people on my server have called me “MVP” = Most Valuable Player on the map.
Several times I have been on map where I solo flipped every tower and camp which our side owns. You do the flipping 2-3 minutes before the tick and you hold it for the tick.
You can also flip a keep with just 2 players.And this has happened during busy prime time where there can be roughly up to 70-80 enemy players on each enemy side (a total of 140-160 enemies on the same map). Our side might have a zerg of their own, but they are doing gvg or having open field fights. Nevertheless it is roaming guys who matter the most when it comes to score.
Back to topic:
PU mesmers need a change. They have too much survivability and escapes compared to the amount of dps they can dish out. Either take shave off DPS or the reduce amount of stealth and increase the cooldown of blink.I have often been roaming for 1 h and encounter almost solely just enemy mesmers. If almost the entire roaming player population is using just one profession, it tells that the balance is a bad joke and Arenanet should do something about it.
Playing PU mesmer doesn’t require much any skill. It is a very forgiving build, which can easily handle 2-4 enemy players alone, unless they are built to take down mesmers.
You seem like an experienced person. If you think that you will encounter a certain class in roaming, why don’t you do something crazy and come up with a build that makes it easy to beat that class? If you truly want to stay and fight that condi PU cancer, then at least be prepared. Otherwise what are you complaining about? That your average roaming build cannot hold against this rubbish troll build for troll people?
Condi PU is basically annoying and nothing else. But so are most other roaming builds because a good roaming build has to be able to sustain itself, win fights where it has a chance to win and escape from fights it cannot win. Otherwise it’s not a roaming build.
…invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Now see, this complaint has no meaning.
How often do you not bail in front of packs of anything? Grouping up is kind of the name of the game, yah?Also, mesmers by their very nature (worse for condi mes) are at a disadvantage in more than a 3v3. If anything, grouping up into multi-mesmer groups is making this less of a problem, as a group of 4+ ele/guard/warr would be more effective anyway.
You are supposed to get the idea there are lots of them (mesmers) now and understand that as hard as it was to solo roam with what I like to it’s much worse now. The solo roaming rant is not mesmer oriented btw…
So you’re solo roaming on a zerker staff ele and complaining that you’re getting killed by packs of enemy players? Are you actually serious right now? Zerker staff ele gets massacred 1v1 vs anything competent, let alone most roaming builds, let alone actual groups…
Every time without fail there will be someone invariably building a straw man… If you actually cared to read the thread I did say I assume my Kamikaze build while roaming. Solo roaming on my staff ele is a very good training and challenge that I had no problem doing before with great joy (I still do and it is still fun more often than not).
However, since the patch it is more and more of a pain and I’m at a really good spot to witness the changes that happened… As for my last comment, again, it was merely to clarify what I meant as opposed to what ppl understood (or wanted to understood). I even say the roaming rant is not mesmer related. It was merely a rant about an added layer of difficulty resulting of solo roaming being next to extinct. So now not only the game balance is worst than ever but if you solo roam you have to multiply that by the number of players you encounter.
It was merely a rant about an added layer of difficulty resulting of solo roaming being next to extinct.
Well good, considering that 1v1 isn’t a dev-supported combat format. The more it is discouraged, the better.
However, again, as plenty people have said, The Pledge is bugged and providing a lot more CD reduction than it should.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
This is simply not true.
I am mostly a WvWvW, playing on Desolation, EU rank 1 server. Roaming matters to score at least as much as blobbing does. You can deny enemy its supplies by sniping the dolyaks, upgrade camps (effectively draining them to close to zero supplies before larger enemy group flips them back), place supply traps, contest enemy keeps or even try to capture them on your own. I play like that pretty much every day and several people on my server have called me “MVP” = Most Valuable Player on the map.
Several times I have been on map where I solo flipped every tower and camp which our side owns. You do the flipping 2-3 minutes before the tick and you hold it for the tick.
You can also flip a keep with just 2 players.And this has happened during busy prime time where there can be roughly up to 70-80 enemy players on each enemy side (a total of 140-160 enemies on the same map). Our side might have a zerg of their own, but they are doing gvg or having open field fights. Nevertheless it is roaming guys who matter the most when it comes to score.
Back to topic:
PU mesmers need a change. They have too much survivability and escapes compared to the amount of dps they can dish out. Either take shave off DPS or the reduce amount of stealth and increase the cooldown of blink.I have often been roaming for 1 h and encounter almost solely just enemy mesmers. If almost the entire roaming player population is using just one profession, it tells that the balance is a bad joke and Arenanet should do something about it.
Playing PU mesmer doesn’t require much any skill. It is a very forgiving build, which can easily handle 2-4 enemy players alone, unless they are built to take down mesmers.
You seem like an experienced person. If you think that you will encounter a certain class in roaming, why don’t you do something crazy and come up with a build that makes it easy to beat that class? If you truly want to stay and fight that condi PU cancer, then at least be prepared. Otherwise what are you complaining about? That your average roaming build cannot hold against this rubbish troll build for troll people?
Condi PU is basically annoying and nothing else. But so are most other roaming builds because a good roaming build has to be able to sustain itself, win fights where it has a chance to win and escape from fights it cannot win. Otherwise it’s not a roaming build.
The complaint is legit and not restricted to roaming as has been said bazillions of times though. But even if we do stay with roaming, the presence of these obviously overpowered troll builds in this context is a problem that could rather easily be fixed without crashing the house down on the culprits.
I get that ANET doesn’t balance around wvw bla-bla. However, there are limits to this line of thinking (let’s be honest here it’s a coward and convenient argument anyway). If mesmers auto-attacks were able to level SMC it would have no impact on pvp gaming and devastating one in wvw and we should just shrug? I’m sorry but ANET is expected to keep a minimum of balance in all game content. The “it’s not suppose to be fair” has limit too. I accept these imbalances as long as they aren’t ridiculous but past some point I expect something being done.
The good ole “risk vs reward” should be how things are balanced. You want to have no risk? Don’t expect a super high reward. Anything that strive to go away from that paradigm is bad to me. And telling me that profession X also can do Y is a ridiculous argument to give me here. It is a logical fallacy.
You say you are curious but never say about what? How can I help you? I play on SoR and am currently facing BP and SF… TONS of mesmers. We do have our fair share ourselves. IDK what to say but to me, as well as many people apparently, there is unarguably a very significant increase in the profession visibility on the field no matter the server we have faced.
I do not see PU “occasionally”. It’s, apparently, near mandatory now. Almost a bad running gag actually. People seem to be soooooooo afraid to roam without their stealth it’s ridiculous. I assume my kamikaze roaming style with my zerk staff ele but if I always felt alien before while roaming alone now the feeling is overwhelming when invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Yeah I’m ill at the moment so that slipped by, will edit it in.
For me I see PU on mesmers generally because of thieves. As I’ve said many times, Mesmer has very poor swiftness so escaping a thief without stealth won’t happen and 3-4s won’t cut it. You can’t outrun the things and you couldn’t out stealth them either. Roaming as a power Mesmer pre patch was painful. It was possible but you could be easily killed by the many, many thieves out there and they didn’t even need to be skilled to do it.
That’s without mentioning the necessity of being able to escape from a zerg or a bunch of people from the other server coming to outnumber you. Again, without traveler runes there is no way I’m escaping without stealth of a decent duration.
You can’t say mesmer stealth is too much without also saying thief stealth is too much but that’s been there for 3 years solid. Additionally it would be incredibly hard to change it. Please do try roaming as a mesmer without PU and see how “easy” it is without support.
I guess the increase in PU condition mesmer is an NA or upper EU thing as I don’t see it often in any of the servers we fight, but then as I said, those players tend to have a very bad time with the corpse jumping and laughing. Finally, you really need to put down the zerk staff ele, we’ve been over this in the last nerf PU thread, it just isn’t viable atm, seen zerk or close to zerk DD ele with lightening rod be effective though.
Then giving mesmer swiftest buff might have been way better is what I would tell you. Adding more of something broken is always a bad decision. But to be fair, even before the patch, I could pretty much escape all I ever needed to escape as a mesmer. I never needed so much stealth on demand for that.
Beside, many of you tell people complaining to stop expecting to be able to tackle all other builds yet having trouble with thieves seem to be the main argument you often have. Why not simply accept that thieve have the upper hand then? It’s not like mesmers don’t have a lot of upper hands over the rest no?
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the conditions I apply, so they have no time to focus on dealing damage to me, even if they manage to deal some damage, my ether feast heals over half of my hp anyways, so they basically deal no dmg to me. Also I’m constantly kiting with staff 2 etc, if you try to catch me [I can apply alot of torment], if you try to attack [I apply alot of confusion]. Therefore I’m constantly punishing players for attacking or even moving…. How in the world can that be fair???? I stacked up to 15 stacks of confusion at one time that the enemy deals around 1.5k dmg to himself per melee attack………. Oh you want to heal yourself? NOPE! I run doom on each weapon set, good luck healing…. Pu mesmer can spam stealth, and punishes players for doing anything. In a 1v1 situation, I can never lose.). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me (Just try fighting me with condi build you will understand how every condition that you apply to me gets removed almost instantly) and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
PS. TO ANYONE OF YOU CLAIMING THAT PU CONDI MESMERS ARE NOT OP ETC. FIGHT ME!!! I will beat everyone of you. PU condi is so faceroll i wont even have to try.
This whole mentality and play style is why people hate condi mesmers, this is why it only really works i wvw where you have virtually endless space to kitten around.
But i could beat you easily on any class. Because in wvw, you beat condi mesmers by simply walking away (while smiling at the screen for having robbed that idiot of his daily dose of egotrip).
To be fair, these mesmers apparently often really think they are something awesome and that it is their superior skills that made you flee… It doesn’t help that it’s a troll wet dream come to life.
To be fair, these mesmers apparently often really think they are something awesome and that it is their superior skills that made you flee… It doesn’t help that it’s a troll wet dream come to life.
To be fair, most of the complainers also really think the spec has that much of an impact in who wins or loses the fight, and not just 40/60 impact.
But then, that’s much easier than having to admit you played badly. It’s the same with weak specs, easier to class your own spec as underdog and rationalize it that way.
As an example, the strongest way-OP-out-through-the-roof heroes in MOBAs often swim at 55%-60% winrate. Considering 50% as balanced, wow, that’s surely rocking everyone’ socks off, like, up to 10% of losses could have been avoided by balance. Totally only the spec’s fault someone lost. :P
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
This whole thread is a big sigh, I only had to read the first post.
Question: Is PU condi mesmer actually viable in other gamemodes?
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Question: Is PU condi mesmer actually viable in other gamemodes?
PU condie Mesmer is not viable in PvP. It is not viable in PvE. It is not viable in WvW raids. It has substantially reduced viability in roaming groups with more than 5 people.
Question: Is PU condi mesmer actually viable in other gamemodes?
PU condie Mesmer is not viable in PvP. It is not viable in PvE. It is not viable in WvW raids. It has substantially reduced viability in roaming groups with more than 5 people.
So it is only a problem in very small scale WvW combat… I feel like the devs could find a way to rebalance this one specific build to make it less brutal without damaging mesmer in PvE or sPvP. Small scale WvW can be very fun if the metagame doesn’t go stale. I don’t think it should be neglected.
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To be fair, these mesmers apparently often really think they are something awesome and that it is their superior skills that made you flee… It doesn’t help that it’s a troll wet dream come to life.
To be fair, most of the complainers also really think the spec has that much of an impact in who wins or loses the fight, and not just 40/60 impact.
But then, that’s much easier than having to admit you played badly. It’s the same with weak specs, easier to class your own spec as underdog and rationalize it that way.
As an example, the strongest way-OP-out-through-the-roof heroes in MOBAs often swim at 55%-60% winrate. Considering 50% as balanced, wow, that’s surely rocking everyone’ socks off, like, up to 10% of losses could have been avoided by balance. Totally only the spec’s fault someone lost. :P
Well, I’ll speak for myself here and say that I see a huge difference in difficulty and success when I play on my main with my usual zerk staff ele and when I play on my mesmer using PU. I’m the same player with thousands of hours on my main and maybe 80 hours on my mesmer in pvp but god is the difference obvious to me in the numbers of time I’m in real danger and how easy I can achieve a win. The skill floor is absurdly low for the PU mesmer and the build does make a significant difference in that since I’m after all the same guy and far more skilled at staff ele.
The skill floor is absurdly low for the PU mesmer and the build does make a significant difference in that since I’m after all the same guy and far more skilled at staff ele.
I’m not saying the spec has no impact, but between the bug (which constitutes a large portion of the problem you seem to have with the spec, namely the ready availability of stealth) and the tiny impact (1v1 even combat is a rarity to say the least :P ), it’s really not such a big deal.
Happy PU finally has something of a use case. Not even using Chaos myself any more, but used to be Blackwater back in the days.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Anet doesn’t balance around WvW roaming, sorry.
This. It’s well known how broken they are, condi trap thieves are just as bad.
Having said that Scrapper hyyyyypppppeeeeeeee, wide area reveal on short cool down 4tw. Should be more reveals in the game, to promote active play over camping stealth.
dont forget Dragonhunters´s light´s judgement and Heralds Gaze of Darkness, classes are getting more and more stealth counters, and we still dont know if Druid will also have one
What if introducing a new rune set for 5%, 8% and10% chance on hit cast aoe reveal?
(edited by Doug Whisper.2465)
What if introducing a new rune set for 5%, 8% and10% chance on hit cast aoe reveal?
I’m all for skills apply reveal so at least there is a cost to apply the effect. Both thief and Mesmer has stealth as a mechanic to deal with attackers. The hate on stealth is a game mechanic anet developed. If they choose to address stealth then I hope thief Mesmer get compensation to face tank. Also maybe since Mesmer is terrible in engagements with more than 30 people they gave us the 1 area to be a royal pain solo roaming. Our class mechanic defeats ourself in larger engagements.
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